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File: 1423741933708.jpg (6.51 KB, 275x183, 275:183, Planning chess.jpg)

 No.60

Okay anons, the team is assembled.

This thread is for basic concept for the game. What kind of stuff shall be covered within this thread? This thread will cover:

> What genre or type of game this will be.

> Decide which engine to use.
> Discuss mechanics/gameplay.
> Talk about the basic plot summary.
> Discuss the atmosphere of the game.
> Ideas for Characters.
> Art style for the game.
> Discuss on how the levels should be designed.
> Discuss about how the enemies should be designed.
> Discuss how the music should be like.

And any other suggestions you would like to make.

Prototypes for game mechanics should be posted here. Lets go through the list bit-by-bit until we've got things sorted. Once all of the ideas have been decided on and discussed I shall create a document that will explain the game completely so we can get started on the prototyping which shall be done after the base concept has been made.

REMINDER: Don't be perfectionistic

 No.62

No IRC or anything?

Anyway

>Genre

I don't want to try too hard to make it srs or meaningful, just fun and a bit silly. Planfag made an outline in the other thread where "all videogames are banned and videogames must be played underground", which I think is a good idea. It's too extreme to actually be taken seriously so it's a bit funny, but it also fits with the gamergate message.

 No.63

>No IRC or anything?
….Actually that seems to be a better idea.

 No.64

>>62
I am the planfag btw. Yeah I don't mean it to be serious, that plot was meant to be taken in a comical and jokingly way. In my mind, its quite comical and funny.

 No.65

>>63
>>62
Tox would work well for it.

 No.66

>>65
Ok change of plans, I will make an IRC channel instead. It should be more effective that way.

 No.67

Ok guys, we'll do what we did in that thread but we should get into the IRC. Download TOX since it seems to be most easiest and less pain in the ass IRC to use.

Here's the download page:
https://wiki.tox.im/Binaries

Extract and install it and change your username to your role.

My ID is Planfag.

 No.68

>>67
You should be able to smoothly add me.

 No.69

>>67
Nvm, I got it wrong. My ID is 195BBADD8F41C6FE62B19960D859240ACEAF0467C9935FCAEE97DB2C7A091940FF737D4165EA

 No.71

ID in email

 No.72

>>71
It is be done!

4CD92F7E86C48980B5DFE2E797B11DC71DA8C8CF50E70E23F821237266B29112C33B0A76DFB0

 No.73

>>71
I'm getting an error on your ID number…

 No.77

File: 1423750936003.jpg (38.4 KB, 640x480, 4:3, Shaka_056-03.jpg)

Instead of "all games are banned", make it "all games mist be sanitized/sterilized".

If you're going for a platformer, then you have to ask yourself what kind of platformer.

Basic mechanic (read: MATH) should be set.
Hit points? yes/no
Lives? yes/no
power ups? yes/no
inventory? yes/no
etc..

Personally I'd go for something mario-like. Open map with locations you can visit.


Enemies:
- sockpuppets
- soggy knees
- manginas
- cultists
- megaphones
- (auto)blocker - a big shield robot, produced by:
- Rand Whale (giant blue mad scientist whale)
- Finn Zoracy (would look like the photoshop of that Zoe fish head)
- Revolutor6000 (robot with a dick gun)
- Beata Sanita (meditating Anita with a halo)

 No.80

>>77
>Instead of "all games are banned", make it "all games mist be sanitized/sterilized".
Hmmm I would personally disagree with you on that. The reason I included that is because most of the LWu's wanted to censor some games and most of them replaced them with shitty "games".

>If you're going for a platformer, then you have to ask yourself what kind of platformer.

As to what genre this game will be, it shall be decided through a vote.

 No.82

Just a reminder, to the the anons who knew how to code and had coding experience with AS2/3 and with the 3D/Moddeller/Animator/Music composer who got recruited for the team. Come to the IRC by downloading uTox and add my and the others ID's.

 No.83

>>77
>"all games mist be sanitized/sterilized".
I view it more as a "All games must have government approval. All things not feminist enough are to be destroyed."

Kinda like Fahrenheit 451, but with games instead of books.

>>82
Not sure if Tox counts as an IRC. It's certainly a chat program, a not-Skype more or less, but I don't think it counts as IRC.

Question: Would people be more comfortable in an IRC channel on Rizon, or chatting on Tox?

 No.84

>>83
>Question: Would people be more comfortable in an IRC channel on Rizon, or chatting on Tox?
Its a lot more quicker,convienent and easier. Once the team is ready and everyone is on Tox, we can switch to another IRC if needed. I just don't want to create a confusion.

 No.85

As for the genre. What would most of your suggestions be?

 No.86

>>82
3D guy here.
Pleb tutorial on IRC please. I've literally never had a reason to use IRC in my life.

 No.87

>>86
Good to see you 3D guy. As for the IRC, download Tox from this link:
https://wiki.tox.im/Binaries

It should be self-explanatory since Tox is easy to use.

 No.88

>>87
Ok. I'll get it when I get out of work.

 No.89

>>88
Once you get Tox press the plus button and add my ID: 195BBADD8F41C6FE62B19960D859240ACEAF0467C9935FCAEE97DB2C7A091940FF737D4165EA

 No.90

For anyone more IRC literate and doesn't want Tox: We're in #proplay on Rizon.

 No.91

>>88
If you want to use an IRC though, basically go to rizon.net, where it says nickname, choose what name you want to be known as in the IRC, then where it says channels, type in #proplay and connect to that channel.

 No.92

>>80

I see it as sucking everything good out of the games, leaving them empty husks with a SJW approved logo on them.

and you cna show it literally…by having a game enter the SJW re-education/re-branding whatever camp/machine, and exit as a zombie.

 No.93

>>92
>having a game enter the SJW re-education/re-branding whatever camp/machine, and exit as a zombie.
Vivian teams up with the personification of different games to take down the Tyranny of Empress Sarkeesian?

 No.94

>>92
>I see it as sucking everything good out of the games, leaving them empty husks with a SJW approved logo on them.

Its pretty much what I meant.

 No.95

>>67

2162415B0652B9E464082DEE32A649162B2047ACD26914CF77D3E7B4DFA338425AA1ADB0C764

 No.96

Something which should be discussed:
Times where we all have enough free time to discuss the direction of the project.

I'm free for a while for just about any time. That might change in the coming week or two.

Something which should also be discussed:
What should people be doing if they do not have time to discuss things with the group?

I think we might want to have a policy of someone writing up the decisions and such that was made during the previous meeting and posting it here for anyone who missed the meeting to see.

 No.97

Okay guys, I'd like to know your opinion on the meeting times and whether you can come on here to meet and discuss the game.

The meeting times will be on Monday,Wednesday,Friday,Saturday at 4-5pm US Eastern time. Will you guys be able to come here to discuss and meet at these times?

 No.98

>>97
I can definitely try.

 No.99

>>98
Many thanks. Another thing is, what kind of genre do you anons want this type of game to be? Give suggestions and I will make a straw poll to decide on what the game's genre shall be.

 No.100

>>99
We had a straw thread that I made a bit ago with the two most suggested genres that were suggested: http://strawpoll.me/3614247/r

Though, we could do another poll with more options.

 No.102

Are you going to try to get the game greenlit on Steam? (To be distributed as a free game)

I assume most of the creators that will contribute want to reamin anon, so I don't know how feasible that would be. There are mods that ended on Steam as standalone free games, so there is at least a chance.

 No.107

>>102
I think that's a bit too far ahead but personally I just want to put it on a website like dropbox so you guys can download it and enjoy.

Greenlight is definitely ambitious and I don't think its feasible.

 No.108

>>93

A colorful, normal game being drained of everything, becoming a drab, grayscale (drain all color too. Visually impactful), rotting corpse-game.

Vivian could have as power-up different costumes of known vidiya heroes. Of course, the simpler the graphics, the easier to make.

Specials include:
- summoning V,
- summoning TB (spehss muhreen armor), - sumomning Milo?
- summoning /pol/

 No.112

>>97
I'm actually in classes every day from 2pm to 5pm for the next month. I can make it on Saturdays but otherwise I won't be able to make it in.

 No.113

>>111

Oh! I've been looking everywhere for you. Could you add me on Tox? This is my ID:

>>69


 No.117

All right guys. I've got the team assembled (There are two extra spaces left if anyone wants to join). Now about the project, we shall mainly be using Unity 3D for this game. I've suggested we go for a JRPG style game mainly because its do-able with the amount of people available.

What I want to do first is mainly establish what type of game this is going to be, what do you guys think of this being a JRPG?

 No.119

>>117
The poll favored JRPG, 13 votes out of 22

 No.120

>>119
Well then I guess its official, JRPG it is.

 No.121

>>120
Well, if we're going for a JRPG, I can start working on story, then.

 No.122

>>121
Here's some stuff Planfag suggested: http://8ch.net/proplay/res/48.html#q52

 No.123

Since the poll favoured RPG, we shall start the concept for the game now. The first thing we should discuss is probably the most important: ==Gameplay mechanics==

Lets split the gameplay into chunks so the mechanics are easier to implement:

- There's the battle system.
- The exploration system.
- The quest system.
- Shop system.
- Levelling system.
- Menu system.
- Class system.


Lets do and plan one thing at a time. All ideas are appreciated, once we have the ideas down for one chunk of the gameplay, I will create a documentation for the team, review and see if it can be implemented for the game prototype.

 No.127

>>123
>- There's the battle system.
The idea of a "beat'em up" combat system was brought up before. It would pretty much require a 3D battle ground, a "battle" model for all party members and enemies, combat animations, hit boxes on both bodies and attack animations, a list of special abilities and their MP costs, some kind of menu or button combination to activate special abilities, a combat HUD (HP, MP, status effects), a system to spawn in enemies, an end-battle screen, an xp calculator, and stats -> Abilities -> damage/healing formulas.

>- The exploration system.

A movement system, a changing map system, a map -> battleground system (complete), a dialog window system, treasure chest/items on the ground system, "map" models for every NPC and walking/running animations, and a minimap system(?).

>- The quest system.

I'm not quite sure what would be needed for this other than tons and tons of bools.

>- Shop system.

Shop menu system, currency system, catalog of all items and their costs, and a cost -> sell price formula.

>- Leveling system.

This really depends on what we want from the level system. How much customization do we want? If the answer is 0, then all we'll need is a bunch of formulas that dictate each stat, and a big list of who receives which abilities at what level. If we want some real customization, though, things might get a bit tricky.

>- Menu system.

Get us a nice GUI. I would say make it both mouse and controller/keyboard accessible.

>- Class system.

Do we want classes? What would swapping classes do? Can you multiclass? What are each of the classes? Will we group them (tank, dps, healer?) or let them all do completely different things?

Sorry I just left us with even more questions than answers, but this will hopefully help us focus on some of the more nitty gritty aspects.

 No.140

>>127
Thank you for your input man, greatly appreciated and I have to say I am quite surprised since I was going to list 90% of what you listed.

Here's what I think so far (Most of what you said I was about to post).

For the battle system as:

I am mainly thinking of doing a turn-based JRPG but with a turn system that is similar to Final Fantasy X where you see who's turn it is next/have a turn order and you can have certain skills or items that will give you an earlier turn in the order or delay it. But yeah other than that with the stats,hp,mp and etc you're right. The only thing I am wondering is to whether include an over-drive meter or not.

For the levelling system:
Yeah for the levelling system there's not much customization really. However the only difference I was thinking about for the levelling system was that instead of certain abilities unlocking at certain levels, its best to unlock more skill slots which is similar to SMT: Digital Devil Saga. I think game-play wise it would allow the player to mix and match certain abilities and it would be a lot easier to implement.

Class system:
For the class system I think I miss-phrased it a bit. The way I see the class system is like this, you can buy classes and the classes themselves have different levels which can be levelled using CP (Class points). Each class has different abilities, so when you select a class, you level the class up which allows you to extract certain abilities.

Here's an example:

Character:

- Skill slots: –Skills: – Class.
1. 1. Fireball. (From the wizard class) 1. Wizard.
2. 2. Spiral Arrow. (From the archer class)
3. 3. Battle cry. (From the warrior class)

So as you see when you select a class all you are doing is leveling up that class to gain the skills from said class which you can mix and match.

>Will we group them (tank, dps, healer?) or let them all do completely different things

The classes will mainly be in different categories for each character. So if a character is a wizard for example, he can have classes similar to that.

 No.143

>>140
>I am mainly thinking of doing a turn-based JRPG but with a turn system that is similar to Final Fantasy X where you see who's turn it is next/have a turn order

Okay. Time to get a bit more technical, then.

So, now we need an initiative system, possibly make it a list that "activates" whatever character is in the 0 slot, and asks for their turn. Obviously if it is an enemy in the 0 slot, it will get a response from an AI, but if it is a hero, it will ask the player for input.

On top of this we need a system to determine who goes when. I feel like it might be something along the lines of Exalted's tick system, where every action has a number of "ticks" required to recover from the action.

So, for example, it is Vivian's turn and she attacks.

Her attack is worth 4 "ticks," so she adds 4 to her tick count. The list when then order itself from least to greatest ticks, and whoever was in the 0 slot (top of the list) would then go.

As for displaying it, it would probably be calculated as if the entire time a new action is chosen, so if the currently selected action is 5 ticks, it puts Vivian's next turn as if she was 5 ticks away, and if she moves to a different section, it would then change the proposed tick time, and update the proposed list again.

Am I missing anything, or does this sound solid?

 No.145

>>143
Okay, so, let me try and explain with some more examples.


The fight just started, and everyone has gotten their initiative (we'll need to design a way of determining this), and the first initiatives are…

Vivian 0
Gilda 3
Enemy 5
Mika 6

Since Vivian is at the top of the list, it is Vivian's turn, and she attacks. Her basic attack is a 4 tick action, so we add 4 to her tick counter…

Vivian 4
Gilda 3
Enemy 5
Mika 6

Then we order the tick counter from lowest to greatest…

Gilda 3
Vivian 4
Enemy 5
Mika 6

And now Gilda is at the top of the list, so it's her turn. If she attacks, she adds 4 to her total, getting…

Gilda 7
Vivian 4
Enemy 5
Mika 6

And ordered again…

Vivian 4
Enemy 5
Mika 6
Gilda 7

And the fight would continue on like that.

Mind you we may want to make things so their stats affect how many ticks certain actions take, so, for instance…

Because Gilda has so much Dex, her basic attack is 3 instead of 4, so instead of her being at tick count 7, she is at tick count 6. We will, of course, need to determine what happens when two people have the same tick count.

 No.169

Class:
- SHITLORD
- PISSBABY
- Wizard of Darknet

Items:
- Neckbeard
- soggy knee

Frankly I think an arcade/platformer would have been ebtter, but whateves.

In regards to story: You're leading a rebel force to re-take the land of vidiya against oppressive invaders

You have a overland map and you get a ship you can use to travel to main locations. Each main location is a hub where you, in a JRPG fashion, can go around and explore.

But honestly guys, if you jsut wanted to make a JRPG, there's RPG maker VX that comes with tons of assets and it's easy to use.

There's also the Construct 2 tool on Steam for free.

 No.178

>>169
I would kind of have to disagree with you but I completely get where you're coming from.

The main reason its 3D is mainly because there was a lack of sprite-artists/sprite-animators when I was assembling the team. Also the OG3D guy has shown to be quite capable to create some good 3D models so I got a team assembled very quickly which would gear towards it being 3D.

Also the graphics and the art style for this game won't really be overly complex, they will be pretty simple and colourful.

At the same time this isn't going to be a full-scale JRPG or a very large one. Its mainly going to be a small-medium JRPG which will have polished mechanics along with a decent/well executed plot. Unity 3D is pretty easy to use and quite quick to learn.

If there was a sprite animator and someone who could create some really nice sprites then I would have gone 2D but that was not the case. At this time though, I think its best to go with the 3D JRPG direction and keep going that way rather than switching now because things would have to be over again and the game is established to a point.

 No.185

>>169

there is a 3D RPG maker out there too. with assets and stuff.

Fair enough tough.
I'm more at home with 3D than 2D anyway (I'm only good at simple sprites)

 No.186

>>185
I can understand if you're a bit intimidated by the Unity 3D engine (I was at first) though trust its quite easy to use and they're tutorials are top notch for learning how to use the engine very quickly.

Add me on Tox:
195BBADD8F41C6FE62B19960D859240ACEAF0467C9935FCAEE97DB2C7A091940FF737D4165EA

Download uTox:
https://wiki.tox.im/Binaries

Its quite easy to set up and a really good software for chat and keeping in contact. Very easy and quick to set up.

 No.205

File: 1424422322764-0.png (32.52 KB, 513x402, 171:134, 1364883865826.png)

File: 1424422322764-1.jpg (124.21 KB, 374x500, 187:250, Cargo Cult Cellphone.jpg)

Alright, there's been a lot of debate over the way that abilities/magic should be handled.

It was discussed that handheld-like objects would be the equivalent of a wand (I imagine them as looking like something out of a cargo cult). Cartridges are put into the handhelds which determines what spells/abilities the character gets.

Right now we're not sure how we want the cartridges to work mechanically, so, if you're a random lurker, feel free to post your opinions.

Cartridges as Equipment:
Cartridges are things that you equip in the equipment menu. They give you a small stat bonus based on their level and their level also determines what spells/abilities are unlocked. They all hold a substantial amount of spells and only a small amount of cartridges will be available to the player (Around 6-10 total, if not lower). The problem with this one is that there is no incentive for a player to really swap out their Cartridges. I know for a fact that when I played Grandia II, I never switched out my mana eggs because why would I subject myself to having to learn all my spells all over again? I feel this system would fail in that regard.

Cartridges as Class:
This would have the cartridges act like classes, similar to the dressphere system in FFX-2. In short, each change of cartage is going to swap out their abilities and give them much larger stat changes to make them better represent their role, each character individually leveling up their skill in each job. I can see the same problem here as I saw in the other one. Why would I change my classes if my current party set up works? FFX-2 got around this by giving bonuses for swapping classes in the middle of a fight, and the best ending was only possible if all classes for all characters were maxed out.

Cartridges as Materia:
Like Materia from FF7, the cartridges will be very plentiful and multiple cartridges will be able to be equipped at a time, but each cartridge will only have 1-4 spells on them. We may also have a number of different handhelds that have different number of slots and slot combinations similar to FF7. I don't like this system mostly because it feels wrong thematically. We could probably have every spell casting animation be the swapping out of cartridges, but other than that, the idea of multiple cartridges just feels off to me. You guys are free to disagree with me and I'll do whatever the majority wants, I just don't think things fit thematically.

Cartridges as Skill Books:
Similar to the FF9 system of gaining skills, each cartridge would have a small number of skills associated with it, but after gaining enough XP with the cartridge equipped, the abilities from the cartridge are then permanently unlocked for the character. We could either have a skill slot system in which the characters can take a number of learned skills and equip them to always have them, or simply leave it to where they always have access to any unlocked or equip abilities.

Any other ideas for how we could set things up is greatly appreciated. If I messed up an explanation of one, or you just don't understand, feel free to yell at me about that too.

 No.219

>>205
Just a lurker but I'd suggest if you do a class system looking more at how Final Fantasy V tackled it.

You were able to learn abilities and cross class and mix and match them any way you wanted based on how you leveled within the slots given.

For Example making a pseudo-paladin by learning white magic spells and sticking them on your knight.
Or a black mage with melee potential due to having the bareknuckle skill from the monk.

I think the job system of FFV is one of the most flexible systems in any Jrpg and a fantastic one to consider taking inspiration from.

FFx-2's was good but cross classing wasn't really doable outside of special items.

If you do end up going with a class system would be really interesting to have a few gimmick classes in there.

Hope I haven't rambled too much I'm pretty bad at condensing my thoughts.

Also Personally as a fan of oldschool jrpgs World map with towns and dungeons is totally what I'd suggest for exploration.

So few Jrpgs actually implement the map system anymore and I think it could make your game feel bigger even though it's small in scale.

Will definitely be lurking here in the future keep up the good work anons.

3 years in the future could of helped out but I've only just started animation and haven't a skill to my name.

 No.242

>>205
For the class cartridge, maybe give a theme to each, but different skills according to the character to unlock (and some overlap?)

Say Vivian has Nintendo and Sega themed skills, Gilda Sony/Microsoft and PC master race… well, you get the idea.

I'll go with an ATB type setting for now on. Now the Racing game cartridge could give skills like Blue shell (Mario Kart: damage dealt to the first opponent in initiative are increased), Hornet (Sonic & Sega all star racing: Hornets have 75% to damage the next opponent acting, 50% the second and 25% the third), Drift (Need for speed, passive: Defense increase if initiative is below 50%)…

In contrast, the Action adventure could have The right item (Zelda: attacks are always hitting a weakness if there is one), Quick time event (Shenmue: Ability to press a button to halves damage received if done right, but takes 50% more if wrong button is pressed), Bubbles (Bubble Bobble: if one of your attack hit, next one will do increased damage), Assassination (Assassin's Creed: Double damage on the first attack each combat)…

With enough skill variety and theming each character, added to having only one cartridge for each genre, you would need to think about who has the best skills for which situation.

 No.245

File: 1425562685539.png (1.91 MB, 1454x969, 1454:969, 1402621050447.png)

>>219
>>242
So, a decision has been reached. We're going with the Cartridges as Class system.

All characters have 8 feature slots, 4 class features which are determined by the current class, and 4 custom features, which can be gained by leveling up your skill in each cartridge.

Each cartridge has 4 features, all of which are available when the cartridge is equipped, that more or less make that "class." It will be 1 "Library", 2 passive bonuses, and 1 meta changer that unlock in that order, so by getting a class to tier 2 they unlock its Library, by getting it to teir 3 they unlock its first passive bonus, etc.

The Library of each cartridge is more or less its ability list. So, Fighting Game would have Martial Arts as its Library while something like the Dating Sim cartridge would have Charms. Although making each Library unique for each character would be too much work, we are currently planning on have 2 or 3 abilities in each Library be character specific.

Passives are simple ability increases that boost the performance of the class, so back to the example, Fighting Games would have +Physical Damage and +HP, while Surgery Sim (Just an example, not sure if we'll use it) would have something like +Healing and +Critical Hit Chance (If we go with Crit heals as a thing).

The Metachanger is the big thing for each class/cartridge, which will change some of the mechanics for that character, which will be both a good thing and a bad thing. For example, Fighting Games would have Combo, which causes you to do your chosen action twice. This essentially causes your spells to cost twice as much (as you're casting them twice), but you're still doing twice as much damage in your turn. Surgery Sim, on the other hand, would have Hippocratic Oath, which causes all of your damage to heal instead of damage, allowing you to turn devastating damage attacks into healing spells, and also allow you to heal with your basic attack.

These are the basics of what we have planned so far, but the examples are by no means set in stone.

 No.248

>>245
So I guess the Meta is a On/Off thing, because unlocking something that could potentially weaken you in some case is not a good idea

Also, a list of genres might be useful, I guess.

 No.249

>>248
>the Meta is a On/Off thing
How it is currently envisioned, no, they cannot be shut off.

Mind you, you can simply choose not to equip them, or not equip cartridges with metas that go against a character's build.

The reason why the are both good and bad is to prevent people from equipping all metas into their custom slots and walking away as uber-gods of combat.

 No.250

>>249
Well, removing the ability to the Healer to do damage, even if only a little, when there's no healing to do, and considering at high level, you probably need constant full team healing that a reversed base attack can't do anyway, I fail to see how it is useful outside of keeping MP high after baiting enemies into doing few damage in random encounters to use it as a free (but tedious?) heal.

But even if it was useful enough, combine it with the Martial artist with Combo. What is the point of increasing his durability if he is all about nova damage? Or evn worse, what if you could technically use your best offensive ability an odd number of time, but that last use is impossible because of how Combo works, diminishing long term global damage for the class? All in all, I'd go without the Metachangers written as is if I were to "build" my team based on those informations.

Now tell me that there's possibility for group attack (say, shoot-em up?) and maybe I'd go full Philosopher's stone on the healer, while Combo… well, outside of big MP regen or bosses that cannot be outhealed, I fail to see any good use of it as is, but at the current time I could be missing a lot of informations that would change my point of view.

 No.251

>>250
> I'd go full Philosopher's stone on the healer
I have no idea what that means.

Also, the examples I gave were more supposed to be examples of how they should be designed rather that what they should actually do (Metas are a great positive effect, but also a powerful negative effect on something that wouldn't be the focus of the build), I don't even think we'll be having a surgeon sim cartridge (feels too specific).

I'll probably make a thread for hashing out possible cartridge features after I post this. If I do, feel free to comment on everything and leave your own suggestions.

 No.252

>>251
The Philosopher's stone is a recurring item in the Dragon Quest serie that cast Multiheal for free and is never expended, meaning that HP management in dungeons stops being a problem… as long as you are patient, that is, because the item can only be used in combat.

And I understand those are examples that are by no mean final, yet pointing out flaws right away is time gained later when the actual ones will be designed, I guess.



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