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 No.898741

Dragon Ball Thread

The Broly movie is out. Has anyone seen it? If so, was it any good?

The manga is still running and it looks like magic is being brought back into DB with the new big bad. I wonder when the anime will start up again?

 No.898788

>>898741

>The Broly movie is out. Has anyone seen it?

Yes but not me.

>If so, was it any good?

I don't doubt that it is better than the DBS anime but that is a low bar.

>The manga is still running and it looks like magic is being brought back into DB with the new big bad.

Raygun > SSJB

>I wonder when the anime will start up again?

Hopefully never.


 No.898879

File: fe7285a44facd6d⋯.png (141.53 KB, 577x431, 577:431, 0cc0e27b3160678e4e4b1794cb….png)

I saw a camrip about a month ago. The direction and animation were great except for the CG and I like what they did with Broly's characterization here, but as usual it's the Goku and Vegeta show. The entire plot is a lame excuse for Goku to fight Broly Frieza wants the Dragon Balls because he's a manlet, and he just so happens to pick up Broly and Paragus on the way to Earth, the pacing is weird as shit, and Piccolo gets little more than a cameo here. They also don't kill off Frieza by the end, so I guess they just want him to be Dragon Ball's Skeletor because he's no longer a credible villain. They also kept Broly alive as a good guy, but I doubt they'll ever bother bringing him back because that'd require giving anyone but Goku and Vegeta screentime. Overall, it's exactly what you'd expect out of a DBS movie.


 No.899186

File: 9a0f9a86658aa2c⋯.jpg (166.75 KB, 450x734, 225:367, broly.jpg)

>>898879

>the pacing is weird as shit

It felt like a lot of stuff was cut out. You spend 30 minutes establishing broly's backstory along with bardock, 20 minutes or so of getting everyone in place for the big fight and then the last 40 minutes are divided into: Vegeta vs Broly, Goku vs Broly and Gogeta vs Broly. The last fight is especially disappointing because it lasts all of five minutes and you see pic related for half of that despite being his most iconic form. And no other characters get screen time because they know all they'd get to do is stand around and watch helplessly. It was still fun to watch but overall somewhat disappointing.


 No.899202

>>898741

Seeing it later today with my bros. Will post an update later. I don't think it will be to bad. I'm not a fan of Broly but I believe they will do something to make this movie interesting at least.


 No.899546

>>898741

>has anyone seen it

i went to go watch it today, and all I can say is it was a better version of the first Broly movie. The origin story is a lot more subtle when it comes to the Dragonball super canon. battles were pretty epic, not to mention the ending leaves the series open to a ton of possible arc's.

wont spoil anything but it was well worth the ticket price, everyone in the theater was pretty hype.


 No.899674

>>899186

The thing the bothered me most was how they attempted to show Bardock's last stand fighting alone against the Freeza army just like in the OVA, but that part was so rushed that became unnecessary. Great movie nonetheless. I hope Freeza's new buddy will be Cooler


 No.899705

I really liked the first half, despite being backstory and flashbacks. Saiyan's still defaulting to being assholes was pretty kewl. I don't know why they want to bring up the "kind hearted saiyan" stuff still, but seeing saiyan engineers and scientists mixed with the tent based spaceship saiyan towns made me wish this was its own thing. Paragus and Broly doing Pitch Black/Riddick could have been fun too. Something about surviving on a hostile alien world with only a handful of space age technology and a broken space ship always appealed to me. Dragon Ball's setting is always underutilized. That said, the fighting looked like actual damn fighting. Vegeta did swipe kicks and follow up with actual limb based combat? Did Goku do a suplex? Even when they do resort to flying and ki blast pew pew, they go full out with that shit.

I still think Paragus and Broly being acomplished planet conquerors complete with a minion army and enslaved workers was a more "fun" idea, but they clearly wanted to flush them out.


 No.899767

New Gogeta was really fun. I liked how he was acting like a grown-up Gotenks but he was actually able to back up the cockiness with sick fighting ability.

Also I'm really glad that He did the thing.


 No.899927

>>899186

>>898879

The movie was scripted to be about 3 hours long by Toriyama. So we weird pacing is from obvious cut for theater view. Chances are the dvd release will have a near hour of more screen time.


 No.900066

File: ce99ff138dd7a94⋯.jpg (551.99 KB, 1440x1080, 4:3, I'm_not_laughing_anymore.jpg)

>>899927

>The movie was scripted to be about 3 hours long by Toriyama

A Dragon Ball movie has no right being as long as Amadeus.


 No.900104

File: 988a1e656547b6f⋯.webm (2.12 MB, 852x480, 71:40, DBS Broly Movie.webm)

Where do Saiyans go to become scientists?


 No.900108

>>900104

They go to college for a saiyance degree.


 No.900141

File: e1020a0f9c0ae22⋯.png (93.05 KB, 465x397, 465:397, tired_death_loli.png)


 No.900177

I saw it with pals. It was a really fun experience. Gohaniggers btfo, however, no appearance in the movie.


 No.902341

File: 2666ca7f2c26000⋯.png (2.51 MB, 1919x1080, 1919:1080, DancingwiththeSaiyans.png)

Just saw it. Couldn't find a subbed version that wasn't a camrip with ATROCIOUS audio (Nips can't seem to shut up in a theater) so settled for the dub. Whatever. Just wanted to get it out of the way.

Anyway, it was actually pretty good. Like other anons have mentioned, the opening 2/3rds of the movie was very interesting and enjoyable. Broly makes more sense as a character like this rather than just being a nutcase because Goku cried too much. Kinda disappointed there wasn't more stuff with Vegeta and Raditz as little kids and anything more than flashbacks to Broly growing up. Could have been an entire movie dedicated to just that. There was some of the usual power-level fuckery where the gap between SSJ and SSG didn't seem to as large as it should, and Goku being leagues stronger than Vegeta for... no reason at all. Of course, Broly's power level just does whatever the fuck it wants to (he's probably Jiren-tier at this point, but nobody should be surprised at this; what franchise do you think your watching?) Ha! Major props to Frieza for SOMEHOW surviving being pummeled by Broly for over an entire fucking HOUR while Gogeta kept coming out wrong.

The animation was good except for when it turned into obvious CGI (looks like Budokai cutscenes at times) and then at one point almost reached full DBS's-lowest-points status. Pic related. Why the fuck do they do this?? Fight choreography was excellent; the fights are entertaining to watch and there really wasn't any filler or repeated shit. You can really FEEL the speed and the impacts. Almost makes me wish I'd blown the $9 to go see it in theaters. Ah well.

Oh, and I saw the ending of the final fight by those two retards using the Dragonballs coming a mile away. Thing is, it wasn't the wish I was expecting. I was thinking they were going to wish for Broly to not be a raging psychopath but the pure-hearted boy he would have been if not for Paragus' revenge-boner and electroshock torture. But I suppose the ending suggests he'll end up that way anyway, over time.

Was that the first time Goku ever called himself "Kakarot"?


 No.902345

File: 60c18f5973f3742⋯.webm (8.62 MB, 1010x1010, 1:1, CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA.webm)


 No.902346

>>900104

>Slav space monkeys

Soviet russia, judging by the accents.


 No.902380

>>902341

Broly's two buddies from Frieza's crew were fun additions to his character, and their ending resolution was a nice touch, especially when Goku shows up to hand over some supplies but I'll admit, it was definitely really weird for the wrap up to be Goku saying he wants to return and fight Broly some more, because fighting is clearly not something Broly enjoys, and even weirder that he insisted on being called Kakarot.


 No.902393

File: 9f147c0c5ab0f43⋯.jpg (332.71 KB, 668x1099, 668:1099, tdragon_ball_v001-055.jpg)

>>902341

>Vegeta's pose compared to Goku's pose

This is why Vegeta will never be the better fighter.

>Was that the first time Goku ever called himself "Kakarot"?

Probably. Outside one scene in the DBZ anime, I don't think that Vegeta even called Goku Goku in the series but it makes sense in the context. That scene embodies Toriyama retconning Goku to be a selfish asshole and making him being a Saiyan be his defining characteristic.


 No.902401

Saw the dubbed version with my brother. The writing was kind of weird, sometimes characters acted a little weird, I know they’re playing it for comedy, but Vegeta shouldn’t be this averse to fusion at this point, I didn’t like the green bitch because she just shat on Paragus when he was trying his best, but new Broly is alright.

The nice choreography almost feels wasted because of how cheap the animation would get, but it’s still really exciting to watch.

The highlight of the movie is definitely a flip between Gogeta and Broly breaking reality from how powerful they are, Frieza just offing Paragus unceremoniously. The comedy in general is really good.


 No.902420

>>902401

>Gogeta and Broly breaking reality from how powerful they are

The anime already pulled the strong enough to destroy the universe bullshit since BotG. At this point, Goku will have to be strong enough to destroy the 4th wall for the next next villain.


 No.902466

>>898879

>Frieza wants the Dragon Balls because he's a manlet

I never thought DBS could give me a genuine laugh aside from the awful story beats and shameful production value on a samsung budget. On one hand, it's great that toriyama can infuse much needed and absent DB-style humor. On the other hand, Frieza is no longer a terrifying villain and continues to remind us he hasn't been one for a long time.

They're definitely saving Broly for the next pan-dimensional universe tournament. I doubt we'll get Broly as a recurring character.


 No.902469

File: 2d9fa06f21cfe56⋯.jpg (68.29 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, goodfights.jpg)

>>902466

>I never thought DBS could give me a genuine laugh aside from the awful story beats and shameful production value on a samsung budget. On one hand, it's great that toriyama can infuse much needed and absent DB-style humor.

It is literally just stealing a joke from the Red Ribbon Army Arc.

>On the other hand, Frieza is no longer a terrifying villain and continues to remind us he hasn't been one for a long time.

I liked it better when he was dead.

>They're definitely saving Broly for the next pan-dimensional universe tournament. I doubt we'll get Broly as a recurring character.

I'm surprised that people are retarded enough to think otherwise.

I really can't call myself a Dragon Ball fan now. Old man Toriyama has retroactively ruined Dragon Ball for me with his meme characterization of Goku.


 No.902471

>>902469

Embrace the memes. There's no other way to enjoy DBS. It's a very special trainwreck.


 No.902473

>>902471

There are only two set of good DBS memes:

1) Spanish Lore

2) Cuck-karot memes

The rest involves enjoying DBS ironically or unironically which is like thinking "ironically" having gay sex makes you "ironically gay."


 No.902474

File: 6884dcbda67b23e⋯.jpeg (68.36 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, confused meme character.jpeg)

>>902473

>The rest involves enjoying DBS ironically or unironically which is like thinking "ironically" having gay sex makes you "ironically gay."

That sounds strange. Are you a diehard fan of zarbon by any chance? Was TFS' depiction of him to your liking?


 No.902475

File: 0852d2445cdca31⋯.png (247.65 KB, 500x375, 4:3, TightestShit.png)

>>902420

>At this point, Goku will have to be strong enough to destroy the 4th wall for the next next villain

>The next Dragonball movie will feature a villain so strong that Goku will literally ask the theater audience to help him gather energy for the Spirit Bomb

>Whole audience raises their hands

I... I'd be okay with this...


 No.902476

>>902474

I meant that DBS was bad and enjoying it even ironically means acknowledging it as an acceptable sequel to the series.

On unrelated note, I think that Goku would have become more mature and empathetic if Frieza killed Bulma instead of Krillin.

>>902475

Don't give them ideas.


 No.902477

>>902475

I'd actually go to a theater to see that.


 No.902479

File: a5165d3042d86ac⋯.gif (667.1 KB, 500x635, 100:127, carrot consuming egg noodl….gif)

>>902476

>I meant that DBS was bad and enjoying it even ironically means acknowledging it as an acceptable sequel to the series.

So if you enjoy something ironically, you actually approve of it and find it acceptable?

I'm not sure if that's how that works, but tell me more.

>On unrelated note, I think that Goku would have become more mature and empathetic if Frieza killed Bulma instead of Krillin.

That is unrelated. I agree.


 No.902495

>>902479

>So if you enjoy something ironically, you actually approve of it and find it acceptable?

I heard too many people that acknowledge the flaws of DBS (but even more that don't) but continue to watch and support it.


 No.902497

>>902495

>I heard too many people that acknowledge the flaws of DBS (but even more that don't) but continue to watch and support it.

Those are called fans.


 No.902500

>>902497

Yes and flaws are downplayed or twisted to be part of the charm. For example, Bethesda titles are buggy pieces of shit. Instead of shitting on the game like how you would if any other company does it, it is excused off. Then you have Todd Howard making a joke about how their games have a lot of bugs to downplay it. Toddposting mutated into a joke about Todd being too excited or too ambitious with his titles. However, the main reason is that I still like Dragon Ball and can't stand to see it in this state.


 No.902510

>>902500

>Yes and flaws are downplayed or twisted to be part of the charm. For example, Bethesda titles are buggy pieces of shit. Instead of shitting on the game like how you would if any other company does it, it is excused off. Then you have Todd Howard making a joke about how their games have a lot of bugs to downplay it. Toddposting mutated into a joke about Todd being too excited or too ambitious with his titles.

I really hope you realize your train of thought doesn't make your case both in explanation or in demonstrating valid logic. Look up the logical fallacies, "False Equivalence, and False Dilemma," and reread your posts. Similarities does not make proper analogies nor do they apply their circumstances to a different set of circumstances. It will help you understand why it's easy to point out the flaws in your reasoning. Also please look up the appeal of so-bad-it's-good, and the idea of degrees of bad and degrees of good.

>However, the main reason is that I still like Dragon Ball and can't stand to see it in this state.

It doesn't help that you have a poor grasp of what it means to enjoy something ironically and conflate definitions, hence your reliance on equating distinct things through superficial similarities. What it means to enjoy something ironically varies because of preference in appeal, but it sounds like you can't stand that anyone enjoys DBS in any capacity. The reason why DBS is a special trainwreck is because it's all over the place in terms of quality and QUALITY, never being competent in every aspect and forcing the viewer to compromise in order to enjoy it.

Part of the enjoyment comes from seeing other people deal with their frustration towards the series and how it manages to fumble on things that could be potentially interesting. It's like someone crafted a bad movie as a joke, turned it into a series, and attached it to a recognizable franchise. In these threads you get to enjoy laughing at people make excuses for the show. It's amazing to see so many people have their own headcanon to make the show function in their mind just to see it get shredded in a later episode.

So when it comes to DBS Broly, the only thing that's different is that it got a few more things right than the overall performance of the series so far, mainly presentation. All of the previous problems remain, but right now it played it safe and succeeded with many people. Part of the reason why is because it set the standard so low. Surely it will continue to blunder when the series returns.


 No.902515

>>902510

>Look up the logical fallacies

Bring those up aren't arguments in itself either.

>Similarities does not make proper analogies nor do they apply their circumstances to a different set of circumstances.

And analogies don't need to be perfect to hold some truth. Besides, you didn't explain the faults of the analogy so you haven't actually made an argument.

>Also please look up the appeal of so-bad-it's-good, and the idea of degrees of bad and degrees of good.

It doesn't work for everyone and it doesn't work for me at least in this circumstance.

>Part of the enjoyment comes from seeing other people deal with their frustration towards the series and how it manages to fumble on things that could be potentially interesting.

And I don't find that enjoyable.

>It's like someone crafted a bad movie as a joke, turned it into a series, and attached it to a recognizable franchise.

Except people liked it and it ruins everything that comes after it.

>In these threads you get to enjoy laughing at people make excuses for the show.

It is hard to laugh at retards when everything gets worse to cater to them.

>It's amazing to see so many people have their own headcanon to make the show function in their mind just to see it get shredded in a later episode.

I don't read those because they aren't over the top like Gohan Blanco.

Look at Star Wars and Jurassic Park. Things have gotten worse overall not necessarily because of normalfags but definitely because of social media.


 No.902559

>>902515

>Bring those up aren't arguments in itself either.

When you realize how badly you're missing the point and how poor your ability to reflect on what you wrote is, you'll realize how reminding you to look up logical fallacies applies to you. Case in point, your not an argument styled response is indicative of you not knowing why that was there.

>And analogies don't need to be perfect to hold some truth. Besides, you didn't explain the faults of the analogy so you haven't actually made an argument.

That's evidently wrong. It's your responsibility to establish why the analogy fits the situation. Saying it doesn't need to be perfect is an excuse when the issue is the analogy doesn't apply. Reading your posts when you drag an unrelated topic into your train of thought and try to make them related illustrates this. In fact, you even blatantly did that before even without trying to employ an analogy: >>902476

>It doesn't work for everyone and it doesn't work for me at least in this circumstance.

Too bad. But it's still an issue that you clearly don't want anyone to enjoy DBS in any capacity.

>>Part of the enjoyment comes from seeing other people deal with their frustration towards the series and how it manages to fumble on things that could be potentially interesting.

>And I don't find that enjoyable.

Are you waiting for a congratulatory head pat?

>Except people liked it and it ruins everything that comes after it.

This is coming from the guy that can't enjoy something as basic as so bad it's good.

>It is hard to laugh at retards when everything gets worse to cater to them.

It was going to be that way, retards or not. Toriyama enjoys trolling the audience just as much as he's clearly uninterested and possibly senile. Also there's various groups of retards. Which retards do you have in mind?

>I don't read those because they aren't over the top like Gohan Blanco.

Then you also have trouble discerning between regular posters and headcanon posters that are including their headcanon into show discussion. Your problems go even further than proper logic.

>Look at Star Wars and Jurassic Park. Things have gotten worse overall not necessarily because of normalfags but definitely because of social media.

Going from analogy to non-sequiter style thought is a bad sign of poor mental health. It's not just your failure to properly include virtually unrelated shows and IPs, but you including them threatens to go very far off-topic even just to properly show how unrelated they are, including your invalid conclusions. If you have to constantly rely on outside examples regardless of whether they apply, you are already having trouble justifying your argument(s).


 No.902619

>>902500

>I still like Dragon Ball and can't stand to see it in this state

This is retarded. Nothing that happens to the franchise now is going to affect the earlier series. It sounds to me like your only problem is a social one: you're AFRAID to go around telling people that you're a Dragonball fan because they might assume that means you're a fan of Super, which would ashame you. Too bad nobody gives a fuck about your previous feelings.


 No.902640

>>902619

>Nothing that happens to the franchise now is going to affect the earlier series.

Yes but it affects the video games and other side content to come. Your "arguments" against my personal preference reeks of subversion.

>It sounds to me like your only problem is a social one: you're AFRAID to go around telling people that you're a Dragonball fan because they might assume that means you're a fan of Super, which would ashame you.

I just don't want to always be that guy who says "I don't consider DBS canon." everytime I talk about Dragon Ball. It is a shorthand for saying that DBS isn't written in the same mindset as DBZ thus an awkward midquel that doesn't fit. It becomes impossible to talk about Dragon Ball without Super without talking about Super.


 No.902715

>>902640

>it affects the video games and other side content to come

There are plenty of existing video games you can play. Complaining that things aren't going to stay the same forever is on the same tier as an old man telling the kids to get off his lawn. It's also presumptuous as fuck — why do YOU get to decide how video games should be? Don't be ridiculous.

And when has there ever been a Dragonball video game that was worth a damn, anyway? They're all the same; they just add in more characters and shit for you to pick from.

>I just don't want to always be that guy who says "I don't consider DBS canon."

More of the same. You're probably old enough to remember when everyone was saying GT wasn't canon, and the movies weren't canon; but are you old enough to remember people saying that Z shouldn't be, either, because it was so different from Dragonball? I remember people saying that Super Saiyan was the biggest ass-pull in history, that Goku and Piccolo being retconned as aliens ruined the mythology of the franchise, yadda yadda yadda. Shit, there were people who complained about things all the way back to King Piccolo because the series suddenly rocketed power-levels up to "city-buster" tier when previously it was just martial arts techniques confined to a space the size of the Budokai arena. This is just the kind of thing that happens when a mangaka is a seat-of-his-pants, do-whatever-seems-cool, don't-plan-shit-and-forget-most-of-it-anyway type. Stuff changes all the time, and if you were too attached to how things were before, you'll be upset about how things are now.

Keep in mind, I don't like Super, either. Beyond the nostalgia I can pick out any number of objective reasons as to why the earlier franchise entries were superior. But that doesn't mean I go around claiming that MY OPINION of what is "canon" or not is in any way official.

Nobody is "acknowledging" or "supporting" anything, least of all people who just watch free streams or download free rips and therefore don't contribute to any economic incentive to continue or discontinue making Dragonball the way it's being made. The fact is: none of what any of us say or do is going to affect anything. You can either complain about it, or just enjoy what little portions of Dragonball that is still enjoyable based on whatever things you personally find enjoyable. For me, I like using its predictability as mental tests for my ability to understand plotlines, and remind myself about how NOT to construct a narrative. Pointing out what's wrong about something is just as important to learning it as pointing out what's right. And every once in a blue moon Super manages to do something right, like this movie which this thread started out discussing. Fully half or more of it was devoid of Super's usual idiocy even as it comfortably retconned half of the Saiyan backstory, and shoved Broly into canon like a horsecock-sized dildo into an unlubed anus. One might even have dared to call it "good" in its own right. MOST people have pointed out that it's better than the original Broly movie in a lot of ways.

What's wrong with all of that?


 No.902717

>>902715

>All that asserting that I don't have the authority that I never claim to have.

This is what people call a strawman. I know that DBS is literally canon as much that is worth. I already said that it was a shorthand. If DBS was a straight up sequel like GT or DBO and didn't regularly make a habit of retconning explicitly established elements (I know that the Saiyan thing was never planned but Goku wasn't exactly a normal kid to begin with.), Then maybe I don't have to explicitly say that I would have to ignore DBS to have a meaningful discussion of the story of the Dragon Ball manga.

You seem to think that I'm gatekeeping but I'm under no obligation to appreciate DBS in any way (liking it ironically). And there is nothing wrong with me simply refusing to watch DBS and future content.


 No.902776

>>902717

>dbz did nothing wrong meme

Dbz was filled with retcons and power creep issues since the namek saga. Only difference between Z and super is the art. Tight scheduling and Yamamuro fucked up any chance of Super ever looking good consistently like in Z. You can dislike Super because you may not like the stories, valid argument. I just don't find any validity in saying super is bad because of power creep and retcons.


 No.902845

File: 3d020a0c1c098ba⋯.gif (749.97 KB, 500x282, 250:141, 202T0ku.gif)

Hate that Toriyama made Goku into another Superman reject. People were just fine with him and how he used to be, story and all. Same thing especially with Bardock and his old design. I know the movies and specials made by Toei weren't canon, but damn, some of them were pretty gud, even Toriyama liked what Toei had done with Bardock and had originally embedded that into his canon. Unfortunately, over the years he has gone senile and dragon ball canon is extremely contradicting and inadequate. Swear you superfags defend anything as long as it is "canon". Toriyama could have written Dragon Ball Multiverse, and you fags would have still defended that garbage.

I also hate what he did with a lot of the characters too. I know people may disagree with me on this one but I especially hate what he did with Vegeta's character. Vegeta to me seemed like a more interesting and likeable character with a personality back during the Frieza and Saiyan sagas. I know character development is important, but it didn't really seem to help Vegeta at all, but rather make his character even worse. Don't know about you lads, but making Vegeta settle down and get married was one of the worse things Toriyama could of did in my opinion other than not ending the manga after the Frieza saga. Vegetafags can get mad at me all they want, but Vegeta has been Goku's buttbuddy for years now with no hopes of ever surpassing him, and with not only Frieza, but Broly and Jiren in the picture, Vegeta is becoming more and more irrelevant.


 No.902939

>>902845

Vegeta is about to get his ass beat by an old giant on New Namek.


 No.902949

File: 5e6a816409ed96c⋯.png (58.25 KB, 369x317, 369:317, 1538961288922.png)

>>902939

In the manga? Can't expect anything more from jobbing manlets right?


 No.902951

File: 69049defe704619⋯.png (19.12 KB, 255x238, 15:14, 590d925250171fb64c3846da4f….png)

File: 121e911ffb1eec0⋯.png (17.72 KB, 255x238, 15:14, efb3bd74006b63da6adfde8222….png)

>>902776

<dbz did nothing wrong meme

>strawmanning again

Also, it was a direct sequel. It didn't pretend to take place in between the King Piccolo Arc and 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament.

>I just don't find any validity in saying super is bad because of power creep and retcons.

<but zee did it!

I do think that DBS was worse in that regard but that doesn't matter. No one but Super apologists thinks that anyone thinks DB/DBZ is perfect. It had a lot of bad parts with enough good parts to make up for it. Someone here insisted that I can only judge the quality of animation of DBS based on parts of the ToP (which I can't be bothered to watch all of it) but cherrypicked frames from DBZ to prove a point. He said that it was the reality of the industry. For example, I don't buy the Yamcha cheated on Bulma thing in DBZ but they didn't dwell on it. Future Trunks said that 19 and 20 killed Gohan and people just accepted that Toriyama changed his mind. There was no asinine justification like saying Future 17 and 18 are called 19 and 20 or something.

>>902845

>Swear you superfags defend anything as long as it is "canon".

That sums up most of my feelings of the fandom.

>Hate that Toriyama made Goku into another Superman reject.

I hate how people accept that Goku is apparently always been an edgelord that only wants to get stronger.


 No.902955

>>902951

Never said that, he literally reconn the story in the manga and in the movie to have Goku's introduction story similar to Superman's. Should of just left it how it was. Never said Goku an edge lord. Sure he is a retarded sperg, but he does have some knowledge on basic morality.


 No.902958

>>902955

>Never said Goku an edge lord. Sure he is a retarded sperg, but he does have some knowledge on basic morality.

I didn't say that you said it but Toriyama said and people accept it without question.


 No.902963

>>902958

Oh, I'm sorry for misinterpreting you anon.


 No.902979

>>902845

>making Vegeta settle down and get married was one of the worse things Toriyama could of did

It would have been fine if that's what actually happened. Instead, Vegeta keeps swinging wildly between being a happily settled family man, and wanting to go back to being the devil-may-care Prince of all fucking Saiyans again. This is similar to how Gohan keeps swinging between being a nerd and being a badass, Piccolo keeps swinging between being relevant and being the comic relief character, and Goku keeps swinging between liking fighting but being mostly good and being batshit insane when it comes to getting a good fight no matter the cost. Hell, even Frieza of all characters dipped into comic relief territory given the Broly movie.

All character development has been thrown out the window because every character's personality just gets warped to fit whatever plot needs tweaking.


 No.902989

File: e48374d93f053d4⋯.png (33.02 KB, 566x557, 566:557, shocked.png)

>>902475

Unironic marketing genius.


 No.902998

>>902559

That is a lot of assertions and demands given to someone simply stating that he can't enjoy something that he considers bad. What kind of backward-ass thinking is that?


 No.903021

green short haired tomboys are jazz for my soul. that is all.


 No.903027

>>902963

Dragon Ball Minus was dumb and I hated the whole idea of expanding more Saiyan history in general. They are a useless civilization that were enslaved a space warlord. They have a retarded 1-dimensional warrior culture yet somehow manage to go into space. They get stronger whenever they get close to death. They have three overpowered transformation paths yet only manages make use of one them (and not even its full extent). One just requires looking at a moon. Another requires just getting angry (or backtingles if you want to go there). The strongest one just requires six non-assholes of their race to hold hands. It is so ridiculous that Beerus (a pun on Virus) was originally conceptualized (as a lizard) as the reason why the Saiyans were such dicks.

The only thing that I liked about Minus was how they don't actually send newborns and even then they have a low survivability (because kids are dumbshits). Also, Radditz is too much of a dick to have loving parents without any context. I imagine how they compensate this is by making Radditz secretly a big momma's boy. You know the typical joke about a rude character suddenly talking extremely politely.

>>902979

>All character development has been thrown out the window because every character's personality just gets warped to fit whatever plot needs tweaking.

To an extent, this was the case since the Cell arc by they try to force these into character traits and pass off these inconsistencies as "character development."

>>902989

>Dragon Ball Super 3D

>I gain something greater than strength. Pure Autism.


 No.903039

>>902475

>The next Dragonball movie will feature a villain so strong that Goku will literally ask the theater audience to help him gather energy for the Spirit Bomb

>Whole audience raises their hands

It's been done before... at kids showings, mostly.

To do it straight, you would require some range of outcomes: if the public does nothing, it would be just lame to let Goku win anyway. Ideally, there should be a counter on-screen so that the public can determine 'which ending' they want. Fans would probably go for repeated views, just to see them all.


 No.903041

>>903027

> since the Cell arc by they try to force these into character traits

Gohan taking over the family business at the end of Cell was the last time the story had any sensible evolution. Keeping anchored to Goku really killed it.


 No.903042

>>902845

>Toriyama made Goku into another Superman

Well they aren't exactly hiding it anymore, since the series is called Dragon Ball Superman.


 No.903168

>>902979

I don't know, I felt that the shift was wayyy to sudden and uncalled for. I mean in only a couple of years, Vegeta turns too some sociopathic murderer to suddenly some loving character only a couple years later. And while his chemistry with Bulma isn't too bad either, I don't really see how it wasn't forced other than them being headstrong. Then again, Toriyama is more of a comedy guy than a drama story dude.

Don't know, felt like Vegeta's character development could have been more drawn out and emphasized more. Shounenfags love to claim that his character development was one of the best ever, but it really disappoints me.

I don't know, maybe I just hate the troupe where the murderoud psychopath who has been an evil douche all his life suddenly changes in a short amount of time.

>>903027

What do you expect? As many have said before Toriyama should have just ended this shit in Dragon Ball or atleast in the Frieza Saga. He sucks at writing anything that is not light hearted. Toriyama literally has a whole cast a characters and species way more interesting than the monkeys and yet ignores anyone but the Saiyans. The original saiyan lore was pretty okay and tolerable, and he could have just expanded on that, but instead he had to reconn this entire shit series and create even more plotholes. I feel retarded for even taking this seriously, Christ...

(Honestly, I liked the infiltration baby subplot because it showed how cruel the saiyans were to their children and it made since in the scheme of things since there were probably more important planets to focus on capturing in order to sell in the Planet Trade Organization, so sending weaklings to go capture the less profitable planets seems reasonable) Radditz probably was a mommy's boy. I bet he misses her very much. (Well he's dead too now)

>>903042

Literally the name of the next season of the anime


 No.903171

Just finished watching it and I pretty much agree with the consensus. The fight choreography felt like the best in a long time but also felt formulaic with just cycling through forms, which even Gogeta has to do. Also the pacing felt weird being almost exactly half of the running time being backstory then the other half being almost non-stop fighting.

>>903041

I think if it had gone in that direction it would've nicely set up a generational series which would've been a lot more interesting. It would have also diminished the stupid power curve the series has been going towards by allowing new villains to be weaker than previous ones by merit of not having to fight super experienced Goku or Gohan. Going SSJ could even have a meaningful impact again under that sort of structure.


 No.903195

>>903171

>allowing new villains to be weaker than previous ones

The greatest absurdity behind DB is that Toriyama doesn't have a clue about fighting. Things devolved into power levels because he has actually no idea of what makes a fighter stronger than another, outside of pure strength.

Just imagine if Initial D was all exclusively about sticking more horsepower in the cars. Eventually upgrading the engine for a higher HP limit. But never really discussing strategy, technique and psychology.


 No.903200

File: 6343278414578d5⋯.jpg (14.76 KB, 399x297, 133:99, Vegeta_Cry.jpg)

>>903168

>the murderoud psychopath who has been an evil douche all his life

Except he really wasn't. He was a broken sad child who had been in constant pain for his entire life. This was the perfect foil to Goku who was also mentally "broken", but grew up largely just having fun and hanging out with Grandpa. Goku learned how to become stronger to protect friends and allies, but Vegeta had to become stronger JUST to survive. The whole "pride" thing was always just a mask. And his development rolled along from the Namek saga (when he first gained some allies, albeit ones out of need rather than united purpose) straight through to the end of the Cell saga. When he lost his shit when Cell killed Trunks, it was the first time in his life he ever fought for someone else. He suddenly came to the realization of how important family was to him, concluding that he was probably never going to be the strongest, and how little it mattered anyway. His rival was dead. Every threat in the universe was dead. Life as a fighter was over. And like a soldier who has somehow survived to the end of the war, there is nothing left but to go home. The only home he has.


 No.903253

File: 779947a8463c45a⋯.png (108.48 KB, 418x287, 418:287, 779947a8463c45a18046fd6e33….png)


 No.903255

>>898741

>new life into dragon ball franchise!

You have to be fucking shitting me. Literally all of it is written like bad fanfiction with less smut.


 No.903256

>>903200

The fuck are you talking about too? Goku is stupid, that's why he's happy. He rarely was capable of grasping the implications of anything going on around him, while being able to happily solve all his problems by smacking them with a stick... and he was engaged to a mate before he was a teen. Vegeta was told there are no more women he can fuck, was in a situation where he had to pick and choose who to fight or just fight who he was told, and as the most intelligent character in the entire show, had to deal with understanding all the shit going on around him.


 No.903258

File: 3bdca1070f28729⋯.jpg (182.02 KB, 850x946, 425:473, __kisume_touhou_drawn_by_i….jpg)

>>903200

>implying

Even murderous psychopathic manlets can have some semblance of emotion too anon. Doesn't mean they aren't murderous psychopathic manlets.


 No.903261

>>903041

Despite Goku's latent potential, he should be in his teaching phase of his martial arts journey.

>>903027

>Dragon Ball Minus was dumb and I hated the whole idea of expanding more Saiyan history in general.

>It is so ridiculous that Beerus (a pun on Virus) was originally conceptualized (as a lizard) as the reason why the Saiyans were such dicks.

If I remember correctly, Sūn Wùkōng did some shenanigan to give him and his people immortality. I would prefer if they gave the Saiyan race something like this as its origin (which somehow set the path for their race to be fucked in the future) instead of Saiyan Jesus held hands with his 5 Saiyan apostles but failed to stop the evil Saiyans (not really sure how he was suppose to do that) then Namekian Peter wrote it in a book that no one read.


 No.903263

So I've heard theories of Goku being raised by the Briefs, but what if Vegeta had been the one raised by them?


 No.903267

>>903263

>So I've heard theories of Goku being raised by the Briefs,

He wasn't.

>but what if Vegeta had been the one raised by them?

Depends how early they got him.

<Bulma: You have a tail like my brother, Trunks!


 No.903280

>>902949

>In the manga?

The manga skipped the Broly arc, and is now in the magical goat arc.

Short version:

Magicial goat regains some of his power and escapes, after being jailed for 10 million years by the galactic patrol.

Magical goat wants the Dragon Balls on New Namek.

Magical goat's powers were sealed by the Grand Supreme Kai, who got eaten by Buu.

#1 of the Galactic Patrol "kidnaps Buu", Goku & Vegeta atempt to stop him. #1 of Galactic Patrol proceeds to one-shot Goku and Vegeta with his tranquilizer gun.

They wake up in the Galactic Patrol HQ, and decide to help them against magical goat.


 No.903290

>>903258

My point was less the "murderous" part (he clearly is, but then basically everyone in that show has killed at least one person, so...) nor the "psychopath" part (although, if you use the real definition rather than the meme or Hollywood one, it doesn't apply because he does feel empathy, he just usually doesn't care) but rather the "evil all his life" part. Because he wasn't evil at all. A colossal DICK, sure. But not evil. Frieza was evil; Frieza blew up entire planets and tortured people for the fuck of it rather than to accomplish anything. When Vegeta came to Earth he never actually killed a single person. Think about that for a second.

>>903267

>Bulma: You have a tail like my brother, Trunks!

Gonna go out on a limb here and assume Trunks wouldn't exist because Bulma wouldn't have gotten impregnated by her brother.

>>903280

>Magical goat

You could be completely making up, pulling out of your ass, literally everything you just said, and I wouldn't know it wasn't true unless I looked up the manga myself.


 No.903293

File: a7504dcc121da83⋯.png (390.51 KB, 964x1400, 241:350, The magical goat.png)

>>903290

Vegeta really wants to see the Goat's magic, I expect that this ends with very negative consequences for him.


 No.903298

>>903293

The fact that this is happened on (New) Namek is exactly like when a TV show does a time-travel plot just so the producers have an excuse to pull out all the old sets from ten seasons ago and reuse them.

Are there any more Satan (as in the Biblical one, not the dumbass on Earth) references with this goat-dude, or is that too heavy-handed even for Toriyama?


 No.903311

The only things dbsb had going for it was a structure and broly didn't yell karkrot every scene he was in. Everything else about the movie was bad. The rewrote everything, and it didn't even need to be rewrote. The characters didn't feel like themselves. Frezia was just a Emperuer P ripoff.


 No.903320

Frieza killing Brolys dad to get him to power up was fucking hilarious to me.


 No.903381

>>903320

Frieza is the only good thing about Super.


 No.903385

File: 961c012bcd7d17d⋯.gif (790.56 KB, 200x112, 25:14, 200w (2).gif)

>>902951

>meme

>strawmanning

okay anon.

>enough good parts to make up for it

Same as super anon. Anons as yourself just have your heads so far up your ass that you over blow any negatives Super has against all the positives. From which just tends to be the overall bad art, which it is, as if that somehow made Supers stories worse than Z. Z overal plots were better than Super. Supers slice of life episodes better than anything Z did. Slice of life may of been "filler" but almost all of those episodes were great.

>I hate how people accept that Goku is apparently always been an edgelord that only wants to get stronger.

Yes, it was out of character when Goku told Krillin not to kill Vegeta so Goku can fight him again later or when Goku refused to be wished back to earth so Goku can learn a new technique for fighting.

Fuck off with your rose tinted goggles about Z.


 No.903392

>>903385

>it was out of character when Goku told Krillin not to kill Vegeta so Goku can fight him again later

That was actually a matter of honor. Especially for a jap, a weakling finishing off a great warrior that's been incapacitated is seen as incredibly cowardly. Often times in war stories, you get this theme of honor vs necessity.

>or when Goku refused to be wished back to earth so Goku can learn a new technique for fighting.

Nothing abnormal there, it's not like being dead is like roasting in hell in DB. Goku is basically a regular at king kai's.

I can see that not everything Super is shit compared to Z, but let's not start with the biased details. The main accusation with Super's writing is the feeling of fanfiction: which stems from the fact that its characters weren't written for this purpose. The sayans origin story (which is a ripoff of Superman) was written with the purpose of a vengeance arc concluding with Frieza.

In narrative, characters are elements of the story. They're not independent figures that can be thrown in any kind of story: they're engineered to make sense and resonate in a specific context. That's why Batman wouldn't make much sense on Namek. The changing context of DBS would have worked better with completely new characters.


 No.903500

>>903293

Gonna go out on a limb here and assume that this guy isn't actually going to be that powerful, and will be defeated relatively quickly. Because it just doesn't fit the "formula" of how every Dragonball arc goes. The first guy the heroes encounter is NEVER the main threat of the arc, (except in cases where it's a movie because there is limited time for building a plot). There is always a bunch of increasingly powerful folks they have to fight, while the REAL bad guy sits in the background waiting for his chance. In the Saiyan saga we had Raditz->Saibamen->Nappa and then Vegeta. In the Frieza saga we had Dodoria->Zarbon->Ginyu Force and then Frieza. In the Android/Cell saga we had 19->20->17 and 18 and then Cell. In the Buu saga we had Spopovitch->Puipui and Yakon->Dabura->Buu and then Super Buu (and then arguably Kid Buu). See how it's never "Hey, Goku, here's the evil dude: go fight him!" and that evil dude is the ONLY evil dude? The only exception to this so far in the series is KINDA Goku Black, but even then it turned out that the villain behind him (and inside him) was really Zamasu.

So my prediction is that this guy is just going to be an "introduction" to a whole universe (or alternate dimension, or maybe we're finally going to see Dabura's world and wherever Bibidi/Babidi came from) filled with people who have "magic powers". And these wizards are going to be the bad guys for this arc, in some way or another.


 No.903549

>>903385

>Same as super anon.

<your opinion is wrong my opinion.

Superfags would claim people are blinded by nostalgia but ignore that people can also be blinded by hype.

>Supers slice of life episodes better than anything Z did. Slice of life may of been "filler" but almost all of those episodes were great.

They weren't great just passable. Only the Yamcha episode was actually outright good. Even then those episodes turns DBS more like the Simpsons where everything just goes to status quo.

>Fuck off with your rose tinted goggles about Z.

<Remember the time that Goku killed someguy's family to get to be stronger?

<Remember the time that Goku helped a turtle back home because Master Roshi telepathically promised him martial arts lessons.

<Remember how Goku respects Krillin's strength so much that seeing Freiza easily killed him made him so excited that he turns Super Saiyan.

<Remember when Goku got excited after TaoPaiPai killed Bora

<Remember when Goku only ever wished for a stronger opponent or a stronger martial arts teacher

<Remember when Goku killed a hundred Earthlings after his first encounter with Radditz


 No.903824

Who started the “actually Goku is an asshole” meme?

I know Akira threw out a statement that sounded something like that but that was a while ago.

It just doesn’t make sense, it’s so contradictory to pretty much everything we’ve seen from Goku outside DB Simpsons.


 No.903832

>>903549

It's been said for years that Goku's transformations give him a different personality, more daring and violent than good natured ol' Goku. Not unlike Gotenks who's an artificial mix of people due to magic, and seems narcissist to the point of crazy.

It would have been a cool plot point, if Goku was slowly becoming a violence addict and needed some rehab to control his mind, and not only his ki. Vegeta might have lend a hand.


 No.903874

>>903824

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/wired-japan-1997-akira-toriyama-interview/

>Toriyama: Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/03/27/new-interview-translations-akira-toriyama-special-talks/

>At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

The second statement sounds like he is describing some wandering edgelord rather than Goku. I understand that Goku isn't like Superman that he would fly around the planet to check for badguys to fight and people to save. However, Goku isn't the monster that Super apologists make him out to be. Even if we consider DBS Goku to be a different character, he has shown to care about people even for strangers. Why would Goku be upset about Freiza killing his own men?

People need to understand that Goku has a very simple moral code. He isn't good with social ques; and as a kid, he couldn't tell a person's gender without touching their crotch. He normally doesn't think long term besides the Cell arc and the Buu arc which he has been dead for most of it.

A deeper look to his character tells me that he only truly loved his grandpa Gohan, Master Roshi, Krillin, and Bulma. While he is capable of loving others, he doesn't really understand love. He only married Chi-chi out of obligation. He does care about his sons but it is mostly because of obligation. The last time Goku has lost anyone was his Grandpa Gohan. While he doesn't understand love, he does understand friendship so Krillin's death didn't really give him much insight. Had he lost Bulma before he was desensitized to death, he would understand concept of familial love. Losing Roshi would give him insight on the love between a student and a teacher. That would make him care more about the legacy of Turtle School. The Dragon Balls really robbed him of that. The closest thing to that is the end of GT where Goku reflects on how he was only able have a good life because of the Dragon Balls and he understood why it needed to stop for a while. This was partially brought up in the end of the original Dragon Ball. Ultimately, I think that Goku would appreciate Chi-chi after she dies of old age.


 No.903876

>>903874

One of the problems with Goku is that he doesn't need to give a fuck about friends, because (for some reason) he's able to make friends with literally everyone he meets. Like it's his special magic power or some shit. If some of his friends die, he'll just go make some new ones. He'd never actually stand to lose anything. If everyone he knew died, he'd just go hang out at someone else's house, like Beerus or Zeno or whoever. And I just can't see him really caring in that situation, at least not long enough to mourn or anything. What Toriyama actually created wasn't an anti-hero or anything edgy, but the purest interpretation of a manchild. Not the "meme" definition of manchild, either, but a REAL one: a man that literally has the mental and emotional capacity of a five-year-old.


 No.903888

>>903876

>Like it's his special magic power or some shit. If some of his friends die, he'll just go make some new ones.

When has that ever happened? I get that it is in character for him to not visit his friends but that is only under the assumption that they are safe.


 No.903927

>>903874

>I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows

Yeah, I didn't see them either. I don't think Toriyama did a good job of portraying goku the way he wanted to, and it's probably a good thing because I doubt dragonball would be as popular if everyone realised what an asshole Goku supposedly was when they first started watching.


 No.904033

>>903874

>People need to understand that Goku has a very simple moral code

Adult Goku has, but early kid Goku didn't really have a moral code.

He just did what people told him, he followed Bulma because his Grandpa told him that he should be nice to girls. Finding the Dragon Balls was Bulma's goal and not Goku's.

A perfect example of this is the hostage situation with White. After the hostage says that Goku shouldn't worry about his life, Goku is perfectly fine with the hostage dying.

The main character traits of Goku were developed in the first 21th Tenkaichi Budokai, losing against Jackie made Goku realize that their is already someone better than him.

This created the fundamental trait of Goku, he always seeks to improve himself as a martial artist. His Saiyan hertiage amplified this trait even more.

Besides that Goku has developed very basic morals, but he isn't Superman 2.0 who goes around the universe saving the innocent and protecting the weak.

>The second statement sounds like he is describing some wandering edgelord rather than Goku

There's more than black and white. A person not going out of their way to save the world, doesn't make them an edgelord.

>Why would Goku be upset about Freiza killing his own men?

Because Goku considers killing non-threats bad.

As long as a person isn't a direct active threat for Goku or people close to him, he won't kill them.

The greatest sin of DBS isn't that Goku continues to be the MC, it's that characters like Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo remain relevant.

Vegeta's character arc is finished, he mellowed out, cares about his familiy and recognizes Goku as a superior fighter.

Gohan doesn't even like fighting, he's working at an university, and he's happy.

Piccolo's character arc was finished long ago.


 No.904113

>>903927

>I doubt dragonball would be as popular if everyone realised what an asshole Goku supposedly was when they first started watching.

The original Sun Wukong was more like that but Goku was never really like that. Like I said, DBS isn't consistent with itself. It is just a series of random excuses being thrown together despite contradicting each other. Let's take SSJB or SSGSSJ. It was first presented as an alternate way to get God ki besides the ritual. Then it was obtained by being in Whis' misty room or something (making me question whether it is suppose to be Saiyan exclusive) pulling that calm mind and perfect ki control bullshit. Then it was referred as the Super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God which should mean getting angry or something.

DBS just uses whatever excuse is convenient at the moment. Super apologists use the "Goku is selfish" meme to excuse the poor writing in the start of the ToP when Goku was going to give Bulma his gift to Whis when he found out that she was pregnant.


 No.904140

>>903927

>I doubt dragonball would be as popular if everyone realised what an asshole Goku supposedly was

Toriyama doesn't have the right to spread his 'poison' all over the animated DBZ. Whether he likes it or not, he wasn't the only one responsible in its making, and it isn't honest toward the viewers to force a retcon like this.


 No.904145

>>902998

>That is a lot of assertions and demands given to someone simply stating that he can't enjoy something that he considers bad. What kind of backward-ass thinking is that?

>simply stating that he can't enjoy something that he considers bad.

You apparently missed the part where he repeatedly admitted he doesn't want anyone to like it, ironically or not - and compared insisted that DBS is on the same level as gay sex through analogy, so even if you like it ironically you therefore like gay sex.

> What kind of backward-ass thinking is that?

Is asking someone to form a better understanding of appreciating media so you can have a better discussion, "backward-ass?" Especially when they're demonstrating with zero ambiguity, that, "if you like this thing for any reason, you're gay." You seem suspiciously on the same frequency as that person. That frequency is probably where gay sex analogies and, "backwards-ass" comes from.

>>903280

For a monent I read that as, the galactic patrol being around for over 10 million years. Unless I'm still misunderstanding that.


 No.904146

>>904145

>so even if you like it ironically you therefore like gay sex.

<I don't know how analogies work.

>Is asking someone to form a better understanding of appreciating media so you can have a better discussion, "backward-ass?"

<Only positive opinions and feelings are constructive.

Your entire argument is based on assertions and can only argued via assertions.


 No.904151

>>904145

>For a monent I read that as, the galactic patrol being around for over 10 million years. Unless I'm still misunderstanding that.

No, you're right. He was jailed ten million years ago by the predecessor of the Galactic Patrol.


 No.904156

>>904145

>That frequency is probably where gay sex analogies and, "backwards-ass" comes from

No, the phrase is much simpler than that. It means something being done the opposite of the way it's supposed to be, therefore it comes out backwards. Like a baby being delivered breech, literally coming out ass-first. It has absolutely nothing to do with gay sex. Why would you think it did? I know you want to see homosexual propaganda everywhere, but it's all in your stupid head.

As for the galactic patrol, one wonders why the fuck they cared about this one magic dude destroying planets, but never did anything about either Frieza or Majin Buu. They have stun-guns that can one-shot people at God-level, so it should have been no problem.

The huge issue here is this (typical Toriyama) conflating of serious and comedic traits. The implication is these GP fucks are like some kind of overreaching authority that places themselves ABOVE the literal Gods (reminds me of the temporal-police from Star Trek), and yet they're stupid inept cowards that frequently don't want to get involved in dangerous stuff so just avoid it.

The measure of years is also typical Toriyama throwing around huge units without understanding the implication. A person put in prison for even a few centuries, much less MILLIONS OF GODDAMN YEARS will have gone so completely insane that it logically approaches Kars "eventually stopped thinking" levels. Add this to the fact that the prison guards literally would have evolved into different species by then.

Honestly, after being told that various Kais and some of the GoD are millions of years old, this shouldn't be surprising.


 No.904168

>>904156

>the prison guards literally would have evolved into different species by then

Anon, not even Dragon Ball Super would be so stupid to believe evolution is real.


 No.904182

>>903027

>Beerus (a pun on Virus)

Beers. His brother is Champa(ign), his guardian is Whis(key). How do you miss this?


 No.904232

>>904168

If this isn't a piss-poor attempt at trolling, you need to leave.


 No.904237

>>904232

>defending dragonball evolution

Get a load of this hothead.


 No.904244

File: 66e3d826c2ddd0d⋯.mp4 (15.95 MB, 840x472, 105:59, Dragon Ball Super Broly 2.mp4)

>>904241

>>902341

>>898879

Broly's character was always good.

I know that sounds stupid but the "he hates goku because he cried" thing is a misunderstanding (In the dub, it implies that the crying/goku just acts as a trigger for broly's existing mental insanity, which he has due to his own power; as is the case in the new movie; and in the sub the crying outright isn't even implied to be related at all beyond being metaphorical, as this explains http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37309); eople acts like he only screams and yells, when in his first movie he talked and verbalized about as much as other movie villains (ironically, the new broly DOES only scream after he goes beserk)

Which is really the crux of the problem: The cool elements of the new broly were always there: Him being exiled by king vegeta, paragus wanting to use him as a tool for his revenge thanks to his greater power, him absuing him to do so; broly being driven insane by his own power, but normally is calm and civil when not angered, etc.

Those elements were ALWAYS there, it's just the original movie didn't have the run time or focus to explore or flesh those elements out due to being a movie. I've always said that he and paragus had the most complexity and potentioal of any movie villain and their issue is just being stuck in a short movie. The new film does the same story beats, backstory, and ideas, it just actually focuses on them and has them on camera vs in the original where their backstory is only given like a 60 second flashback and we see broly when he's not going insane for all of like 20 seconds total.

>>902341

The power level inconstiencies really bother me, but I have like a whole multiparagraph triade and how i'd fix super's powerlevels in my head so i'll save it for another post

>>902715

>>902640

>>902619

>>902559

>>902515

Super is shit but it's salvagable with heavy reworks. As I said, I'll make another post about this, but I think if you combine SSG and SSGSS into a single form, come up with a less stupid way to tie Gods of destructions and Angels in with the existing cosmology, and then tie the black arc into that by having it by the cosmological hierarchy of the DB universe seeing mortals as a threat due to their expanding power, I think that could work. Then I guess transitoon into the multiverse stuff/tournament of power from there, or something.

>>902845

multiverse unironically does a better job handling the multiple universe/timline idea then super, to be fair

>>902466

>>902469

Freeza was the best part of the movie, and i'm not saying that in a negative way that everything else was bad, either: Him as this almost saturday morning cartoon villian with "I'll get you next time" and petty bullshit is fucking fantastic.

Had you asked me 2 years ago if I wanted freeza back again i'd have said fuck no, but now I want him to stay around.


 No.904245

File: 967523497053fce⋯.mp4 (15.51 MB, 948x534, 158:89, Dragon Ball Super Broly 1.mp4)


 No.904259

>>904182

>Not reading the post

I said originally he was going to be a lizard thing who responsible for the saiyans being dicks. Later he was redesigned by Toriyama to be his pet cat.

>The scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe originally envisioned Beerus as a villainous character who infects people with evil and was the one who gave the Saiyan race their ruthless characteristics. Also, Beerus originally looked like a lizard, but Toriyama changed his design entirely.

>In accordance to the original concept for this character, his name in Japanese, Birusu (ビルス), is a pun on "virus" (ビールス; German pronunciation).However, the series' original author, Akira Toriyama, thought his name is a pun on the alcoholic beverage, "beer". The pun continues with Whis, the Universe 6 God of Destruction Champa and his attendant Vados.

>>904244

>Super is shit but it's salvagable with heavy reworks.

GT had better ideas thus it is more "salvageable" but that isn't going to happen either. I think that writers are having a pissing contest with each other.

How both the anime and the manga said that Goku never kissed Chi-Chi makes suspect that it was in Toriyama's draft. The question is why.


 No.904270

>>903927

Another thing; goku doesn't seem to be as bad as toryiama says. He may love fighting more than anything but e does seem to get upset when he sees innocent people getting killed, or at least he looks at them with shock as they're killed and then angrily looks at the guy who killed them.


 No.904289

>>903876

>>903874

Did you guys not watch the Zamasu arc? When black was telling Goku how he killed Goten and Chi-Chi after stealing his body, he went insane. Goku was fucking pissed that Black hurt them and they weren't even the ones from his timeline.


 No.904477

>>902989

>He's never seen a Precure movie.


 No.904508

>>903290

How many Namekian civilians did Vegeta murder with no remorse? C'mon, son.


 No.904516

File: 77f951ba22976d5⋯.jpg (30.82 KB, 416x359, 416:359, lol_u_mad.jpg)

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-01-30/far-from-perfect-fans-recount-unwanted-affection-from-voice-actor-vic-mignogna/.142212

>A Jewish fan of Mignogna's work on Persona 3 left his autograph line feeling judged in 2010. The 19-year-old lined up with a replica of Junpei's hat for Mignogna to sign and also grabbed a copy of his fan music CD. When their turn came, Mignogna allegedly asked them why they chose the fan music CD but not any of his Christian music CDs. The fan apologized and stated they were Jewish. According to them, Mignogna stared at them up and down and responded by saying, "Well, we can change that."

>"I couldn't believe that he would say something like that to me," they said. "I wasn't trying to be rude by telling him my religion, I was just trying to answer his question. I ended up just grabbing the CD and the hat without his signature and apologized to him and just bolted out of the signing line."

Dub VAs, not even once.


 No.904535

>>904508

>no remorse

I never said anything about remorse. I said he did things with a purpose. He killed them to force them to give him the Dragonball. The difference is Frieza killed them after they did so anyway just because it got him off.


 No.904539

File: 8a7a0daf00e7a4f⋯.png (307.68 KB, 609x615, 203:205, 1514263061344.png)

>>904289

>Did you guys not watch the Zamasu arc? When black was telling Goku how he killed Goten and Chi-Chi after stealing his body, he went insane. Goku was fucking pissed that Black hurt them and they weren't even the ones from his timeline.

I was saying that Toriyama was wrong about Goku for whatever reason and "Goku has always been selfish" meme was just one of many contradictory explanations that only selectively get brought up when the plot demands it.

>>904033

>There's more than black and white. A person not going out of their way to save the world, doesn't make them an edgelord.

It was a response to the common accusation that the Funimation dub somehow changed Goku from being an anti-hero to being Japanese Superman and anyone who disagrees with it only watched the dub.

There is only another possibility. The interview was poorly translated and things were lost in translation. If you replace with self-centered, it makes a bit more sense. Goku is self-centered in the sense that he can't understand/consider other people's feelings. This isn't a result of malice but it is because of Goku's lack of social interactions and his simplemindedness. With the hero stuff, Toriyama has a distaste for heroes and he might mean hero in the sense of being a symbol or a role-model. Goku is definitely not Superman but he isn't the anti-hero that Super apologists say he is. They only say that to feel smarter than the average Dragon Ball fan.


 No.904552

>>900104

The blue haired one is obviously not a saiyan but the others seem to be.


 No.904554

>>904539

>"Goku has always been selfish" meme was just one of many contradictory explanations

They're starved for character development, but their hands are tied as fans aren't gonna buy it. Had it happened earlier, they would have retconned Goku for real. Be happy they didn't cuck a bona fide hero.


 No.904584

File: 716a4ce094fb27d⋯.webm (2.06 MB, 640x360, 16:9, laughing skelly.webm)

>>904516

>"Well, we can change that."


 No.904585

>>904146

><Only positive opinions and feelings are constructive.

>Your entire argument is based on assertions and can only argued via assertions.

That's not what he said at all. Good job proving him right.


 No.904707

>>904585

Prove what wrong? That my opinion is wrong because it contradicts his opinion? That only certain people can make baseless assertions?


 No.904713

File: cea7fedf5c84446⋯.png (130.75 KB, 330x250, 33:25, ClipboardImage.png)

>>904539

>If you replace selfish with self-centered, it makes a bit more sense.

edit

>>904554

>They're starved for character development, but their hands are tied as fans aren't gonna buy it.

Starting from the Cell arc, he was starting dwell into the teacher stage of his martial arts development. Assuming that Toriyama hasn't retconned how long Saiyans live I think that he did he should be at the stage of his life where starts finding students. Dragon Ball Super is Dragon Ball Simpsons. Barring some few changes like Pan and Bulla being born, everything stays the same and everyone is ageless. Remember how the entirety of the Cell arc takes place in Future Trunks' timeline? No, that is because stuff happened.

>Had it happened earlier, they would have retconned Goku for real. Be happy they didn't cuck a bona fide hero.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.


 No.904749

>>904713

>I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Toriyama's talk about asshole Goku is too late to make a difference: fans expectations have his hands tied. Had it happened before, either Cell or Buu, he could have dealt irreparable damage to the character.


 No.904844

>>904539

>The interview was poorly translated and things were lost in translation. If you replace with self-centered, it makes a bit more sense.

No, selfish is the perfect word to describe Goku. Being selfish has been one of the defining character traits of Goku since the start, and even more so after he received his core development during the 21th Tenkaichi Budokai.

But being selfish doesn't make Goku evil, an edgelord or an anti hero.

Selfishness is a nartual charactertistic of most living beings including humans. There's nothing evil or wrong about it.

Goku acts based on his own desires, interests and morals. He doesn't follow a foreign concept of values, which dictates to him what he should do.


 No.904917

File: 1594790fa129809⋯.png (67.43 KB, 734x435, 734:435, ClipboardImage.png)

>>904844

>No, selfish is the perfect word to describe Goku. Being selfish has been one of the defining character traits of Goku

>Selfishness is a nartual charactertistic of most living beings including humans.

<defining characteristic

<most living things are selfish

That is like saying that breathing is a defining characteristic. Unless you mean that he is selfish in a far greater degree than others, you are using an extremely loose criteria of selfishness that ignores other motivations. You could say that a character is selfish for not lending someone money but that is to ignore that his inaction might be motivated more by his distrust rather than greed.

>>904749

I get what you mean but a vocal minority believe him especially the social media influencers. This meme only really took off when Goku started the ToP in the anime. The manga handled that part better by showing that he is willing to ask Zeno to call it off.

Maybe the word self-absorbed describes Goku better. Self-centered implies that he doesn't care about others.


 No.904931

>>904917

>That is like saying that breathing is a defining characteristic. Unless you mean that he is selfish in a far greater degree than others, you are using an extremely loose criteria of selfishness that ignores other motivations.

Context matters, we're talking about fiction, where it isn't rare that characters are walking ideals. To be more specific, we're comparing Goku to the righteous hero type characters.

> You could say that a character is selfish for not lending someone money but that is to ignore that his inaction might be motivated more by his distrust rather than greed.

This is a bad example, because in both cases the character would be selfish. He values his own self-interest, i.e. getting the money back above the other person's need.

Being selfish is the opposite of being altruistic. When was Goku concerned with the greater good? When did he make a decision that directly contradicted his own values for the greater good?

He wanted to have a fair fight against Piccolo, despite the Earth being at risk.

After winning he let Piccolo live, because he considered him his rival.

In both cases he risks the lives of many people for his own desires, and Goku is aware of this.

He let Vegeta escape, so that he could beat him 1v1.

Goku outright stated that he knows that this action is wrong, he still insisted that Krillin should let Vegeta escape.

Goku values strength, he even valued Freeza's life. He was perfectly fine with Freeza ruling space as long as he leaves Earth alone.


 No.904936

>>904931

>This is a bad example, because in both cases the character would be selfish.

<not getting the point of analogy

Freud thinks everything derived from repressed sexual desire towards one's mother.

Buddhism believes all suffering is derived from desire.

I was criticizing your reductionism.

>When was Goku concerned with the greater good?

Going all the way to ocean to return a turtle, defeating the Red Ribbon Army, training in Kami's place instead of meeting his friends, deflecting an attack from Piccolo to save the audience, confronting Radditz without 100 corpses, teaming up with Piccolo instead of insisting on a fair fight, allowing Piccolo to kill him not knowing if his curse has weaken, staying to fight Frieza, teleporting Cell, teaching Goten and Trunks, risk a permanent fusion, attracting Buu to Supreme Kai's planet, and tutoring Uub.

>When did he make a decision that directly contradicted his own values for the greater good?

Why is that a metric of selflessness? Are you really trying to say that only utilitarians are selfless?


 No.904958

>>904917

>Maybe the word self-absorbed describes Goku better. Self-centered implies that he doesn't care about others.

Or autistic. It would explain all the yelling.


 No.904959

>>904936

The point of confusion lies in 'greater good'. Goku is certainly a good guy, but the direct type who understands good as the happiness of his friends. Greater good seems to imply a plan or philosophy centered around that.

Heroes have differet degrees of social standing. Captain America represents a whole nation backing him. Goku was put in place to save humanity several times, but he doesn't strut around like a representative of all mankind: at most I would classify him as an ace pilot.


 No.904965

>>904959

>Greater good seems to imply a plan or philosophy centered around that.

Here is the thing. Goku is literally retarded. Despite that, he has a firm grasp of right and wrong. He has put the lives of others even strangers above his own.

>Heroes have differet degrees of social standing.

He and the rest of the Z Fighters were content to let Satan take the credit for defeating Cell. They don't care about becoming role models or symbols. They just want to live simple lives. The only exception is Gohan but he shown as looking ridiculous in his Saiyaman costume. Gohan only explores the superficial side of being a hero because he has no antithesis or a rival.


 No.904966

>>904931

>He let Vegeta escape, so that he could beat him 1v1.

That was some pretty bad writing. I don't believe for a second that krillin would spare vegeta's life just because goku wants to fight him again.


 No.905398

>>903261

>Despite Goku's latent potential, he should be in his teaching phase of his martial arts journey.

And he is. He became more powerful than the strongest guy in the universe (Frieza) and then trained Gohan to be even stronger than him, dying with the knowledge that Gohan would succeed him. Then a few years later he realizes Gohan doesn't give a shit and isn't actually a good successor, so he tries to train Goten and Trunks, but that doesn't work either, so he literally wishes for the most powerful enemy he ever fought to be reincarnated as a good guy that he can train to be his successor. So far, Super has been nothing but Goku waiting to meet that reincarnation, and he actually was mentioned shortly before the Tournament of Power arc. Too bad GT completely wastes Uub, defeating the entire point.

>>903824

He's not an asshole, he's just autistic. He's an idiot savant, only instead of counting toothpicks, he's good at copying martial arts techniques. On top of that, he's long since conquered death. We all know that death means nothing in Dragon Ball. So does Goku. So when death has no meaning, then what meaning is left for life? Super is about Goku becoming a God. But it's gone beyond that. He's become a bored God, concerned with nothing but his own entertainment, because nothing else is a challenge for him. Life has become trivial for him, so the only challenge left is finding new challenge.

Super should end with Vegeta finally having to put Goku down. Send him to the next dimension. The final dimension. And it's not a fight. Vegeta just tells Goku he knows a new technique to send Goku to a wonderful new world. Goku stares off into the distance, wondering about the amazing things he'll see, while Vegeta walks up behind him, a tear in his eye, and aims a ki blast at the back of his friend's head.

>Goku: Gee Vegeta, will there be strong guys to fight there?

>Vegeta: Yes Kakarot. There will be plenty of strong guys.

I hope people in this thread aren't too autistic to realize I'm joking. But if the Zamasu and Tournament arcs didn't chicken out and go with the most obvious endings ever, this would have worked in an absurd way.

>>903876

Goku's origin story is that he has significant brain damage. Enough to completely alter his personality. It makes perfect sense that he has the mental and emotional capacity of a five-year-old. He was literally dropped on his head as a baby.

>>904270

He never said Goku was bad. Just that saving people wasn't his motivation. Sometimes he becomes concerned in specific instances, but it's not like a regular superhero, where they go out and do what they do because they want to save people. If nobody was in danger, nobody on the Justice League would fight. Goku would, just to test himself and become stronger.

>>904539

>Goku is definitely not Superman but he isn't the anti-hero that Super apologists say he is. They only say that to feel smarter than the average Dragon Ball fan.

But Super doesn't make him anything close to an anti-hero. He's just crazy like a fox. Everything always goes just like keikaku for him in Super. When it seemed like he was going to destroy universes just for fun, that would have just been fucking crazy enough to be interesting, but of course they don't seriously end up doing that.

Goku knows killing is badong and if he is the only one in a position to stop it then he will. That said, he's literally intellectually disabled, has an autistic focus on fighting, and is so powerful that most of the time he doesn't even realize the good he is doing by defeating bad guys. Also sometimes this happens because it's funny. He has tried to train students specifically because he knows he is in the position of being a hero and also knows he won't be around forever, but part of that is just that he wants to be able to die in peace and fight strong guys in Valhalla forever. Saving people isn't his goal, it's just a niche he's realized he accidentally filled over time. He'll do it, since he knows he's the one best equipped for it right now, but mostly he just wants to fight strong guys. Luckily that crosses over with the saving the world thing usually.


 No.905528

>>904917

>Goku started the ToP

I don't understand why everyone is STILL getting this shit wrong!! Zeno was going to erase all the fucking universes except the good ones. Including U7. Goku actually SAVED everyone by giving them a chance to show off in the ToP. It was enough to impress Zeno into deciding to NOT to erase those universes.

>>905398

>He never said Goku was bad. Just that saving people wasn't his motivation

Exactly this. It might be more correct to refer to Goku as a "common hero (with superpowers)" than as a common hero. Goku is very much in moral character an everyman. He's about as heroic as probably any of us would be, given the right context. If you or I saw a kid about to run into a street or had the chance to stop a bank robbery with no personal risk, we'd probably do it. Goku would be the same way: if someone is going to get hurt in front of him, it's unlikely he would ignore it. But he's not an everyman. He's a Saiyan God who could be doing so much more with his power, but chooses not to, therefore he is selfish by the measure of his means.

It is the same way an obscenely wealthy person is selfish if they don't use small portions of their money (which amount to millions of dollars) to help their community or country or whatever. You can't say that it's not selfish to hoard billions of dollars and not give away millions, because most people do not do so, because most people CANNOT do so; it is outside of their means. For most people this measures out to earning a modest income but not tipping a few dollars when eating at a restaurant; that would be considered selfish, because it is the same proportion of their capability, and therefore the same level of monetary (and therefore moral) sacrifice.

You have to measure a person's level of selfishness on a sliding scale of their means. If they have nothing to give, you can't fault them for giving nothing. But if they have more than entire small countries, giving only as much as an average person is a pittance, and clearly selfish. If they are a God that could bring total prosperity and peace to the universe by cranking an electromagnetic turbine for eight hours every day, they would be extremely selfish to simply choose not to, and instead fuck around finding strong people to fight because it's more fun.


 No.905565

>>905528

>I don't understand why everyone is STILL getting this shit wrong!! Zeno was going to erase all the fucking universes except the good ones. Including U7.

They sure took their sweet time because he didn't started destroying universes in Future Trunks timeline until he saw Zamasu. DBS is just really really badly scripted and it felt like something tacked on in the last minute. However saying that DBS is a boring outline that is executed poorly gets you called a nostalgiafag.


 No.905589

>>905398

>He's not an asshole

>He never said Goku was bad.

see

>>903874

>What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

>>905398

>And he is. He became more powerful than the strongest guy in the universe (Frieza) and then trained Gohan to be even stronger than him, dying with the knowledge that Gohan would succeed him. Then a few years later he realizes Gohan doesn't give a shit and isn't actually a good successor, so he tries to train Goten and Trunks, but that doesn't work either, so he literally wishes for the most powerful enemy he ever fought to be reincarnated as a good guy that he can train to be his successor.

You are talking about DBZ or the DB manga not DBS which regressed his development.

>>905398

>But Super doesn't make him anything close to an anti-hero.

The keyword is "apologists." DBS is incompetently written and the "Goku is selfish" meme is only used to excuse the show whenever it fucks up. Like I said the writers clearly didn't think buy into that bullshit because they showed Goku caring about morality over having a good fight even in DBS. It is like the "SSJB is about Ki control" meme to justify the poor power scaling.

I didn't like how the world is more "normal" in DBZ. Did everyone forgot everything that happened in the original DB?


 No.905657

>>905565

From further information, the stories were more or less tacked on. I like super but the staff were SOL since the beginning. I vaguely remembee that production didn't actually start until maybe 3 months, more or less, before it aired. So it was crunch time almost all the time.

>>905589

I see what the issue is now. The Goku is selfish meme exploded and got perverted from its original source. The idea was that Goku would occasionaly, at best, make a bad decision. This was countered with Goku would never do something wrong and youtube being Youtube made extreme examples of both cases. Than the Goku is selfish meme was born. Like I said I like Super for all its faults because I know the artists and writers were shafted from the get go. If I remembered correctly the announcement of Super was when they started getting the staff as well.


 No.905679

>>905565

>They sure took their sweet time because he didn't started destroying universes in Future Trunks timeline until he saw Zamasu

Multiverse theory is a bitch, inn't it? My point was that, whether Zeno was going to destroy the universes or not had nothing to do with Goku suggesting the ToP. That would be like blaming a car accident on a bystander that calls 911.

>DBS is just really really badly scripted and it felt like something tacked on in the last minute

It really does give the exact same feeling as a shounen manga that has gone far past where the mangaka has scripted (or gives a shit) and they're just continuing week after week making up shit as they go. Every arc is a haphazard mess with no respect for either past or future events. I've never been able to get past the feeling that nobody on the production team -- writers or animators -- gives much of a fuck about Dragonball, so they're just half-assing everything merely for the paycheck. The alternative would be to suggest that they really ARE that incompetent, meaning the world really HAS gone to shit (in entirety) since the 90's. I don't buy the "budget" or "time" excuses, and nobody else should either. They're either unwilling to do a good job, or are somehow too stupid.


 No.905711

>>904707

>Prove what wrong? That my opinion is wrong because it contradicts his opinion? That only certain people can make baseless assertions?

No, the part where you're on the same frequency as that other guy, and can only shift away from the issue and resort to generalisations. When it was explained to you that you're omitting the issue and then you use vague terms to mask what was said, like turning "baseless asserts" into a buzzword, that's dishonest because it lacks context. It's one thing to accuse your opposition of something, it's another to explain and show what they're doing.

Whether or not anything in >>904145 is correct, it's recapping the issue and showing how it lead to it. Meanwhile the best you can do is turn the phrase, "baseless assertions," into a buzzword. If you can't explain how they're baseless assertions, then you shouldn't use that phrase. But since you can't do it, you use it hoping someone takes it at face value and believes you.


 No.905755

>>905711

His argument boils down to.

>Analogies aren't 100% literal interpretations of the situation. Opinions are subjective. Therefore your opinion is wrong.


 No.905765

>>905679

>Multiverse theory is a bitch, inn't it? My point was that, whether Zeno was going to destroy the universes or not had nothing to do with Goku suggesting the ToP. That would be like blaming a car accident on a bystander that calls 911.

If we don't just brush it off as bad writing, it is much more reasonable to conclude that what they meant is they eventually plan to destroy the Universes in an indefinite time frame. Which could mean a 100 years or a 100 million years or (due to the power of procrastination) never.

>It really does give the exact same feeling as a shounen manga that has gone far past where the mangaka has scripted (or gives a shit) and they're just continuing week after week making up shit as they go. Every arc is a haphazard mess with no respect for either past or future events.

Toei clearly had their own ideas but they are unable to smoothly inject them into Toriyama's vision. They clearly had something planned for the rest of the cast especially Gohan but couldn't do it. Ignoring the events, there isn't a feeling of a unified vision for DBS. It felt like three teams having three different headcanons on how things work. First, SSJG was absorbed into Goku's SSJ form and implied that Vegeta performed the ritual later. Then, they introduced SSGSSJ. Then, the anime retcons how SSJG works, have Vegeta reject performing the ritual on himself, and establish Whis' misty room as how SSJB was unlocked. Then, Goku used SSJG in the U6 arc of the manga without the ritual and Vegeta used it in the Zamasu arc. Then, the anime showed Goku doing it in the ToP but hasn't shown Vegeta do it. Then, the Broly movie show Vegeta do it.

>The alternative would be to suggest that they really ARE that incompetent,

They thought that Goku and Beerus turning their auras into dragons and absorbing them look cool and they tried to one up BotG by having the Universe be nearly destroyed. I'm going to assume that they actually are incompetent.


 No.905782

>>905765

>Ignoring the events, there isn't a feeling of a unified vision for DBS.

To clarify, any competently written story should have a general idea of how things are supposed to work. We still have no idea what purpose the GoD serves. The purple faggot has been asleep for quite a while yet we don't get to see how a proper GoD or Supreme Kai is supposed to do their job. There were like 5 Supreme Kais in U7 but there is only one in each other universe. With the Potara earring, both the anime and the manga retcons Potara fusions in contradictory ways.


 No.905790

>>905765

>what they meant is they eventually plan to destroy the Universes in an indefinite time frame

I got the distinct impression it was definitely meant to be "soon". But I acquiesce to the fact that since we're talking about literal gods (one of whom is prone to taking naps that last literally millions of years) that their opinion on what is "soon" may very well be vastly different from what morals would consider it. That's entirely up to interpretation.

>They thought that Goku and Beerus turning their auras into dragons and absorbing them look cool

Well, it DOES look cool... if you're 12-years-old. I think that's what they assume is the only viewer age bracket because humans are like Goku and never grow up, I guess. Just another example of franchise creator(s) throwing a big "fuck you!" to fans in order to attempt to pander to a younger crowd. Why do they do this shit? Because it WORKS. They're probably spending a tenth as much money on Dragonball as they did back in the day, and making even more money. Toei probably has more profit than they know what to do with.


 No.905795

This isn't related to what any of you are talking about, but I'd be interested in seeing a linguist develop a Saiyan language. I wonder what they'd base in on, the Saiyan names?


 No.905817

File: 37b3a96821e598f⋯.png (215.23 KB, 472x446, 236:223, ClipboardImage.png)

>>905790

>I got the distinct impression it was definitely meant to be "soon". But I acquiesce to the fact that since we're talking about literal gods (one of whom is prone to taking naps that last literally millions of years) that their opinion on what is "soon" may very well be vastly different from what morals would consider it.

What I meant by "If we don't just brush it off as bad writing," is working on the assumption that the writers were aware that Future Trunks' timeline would have been destroyed earlier if Zeno always planned to destroy the universes by the time frame of the ToP. This is also under the assumption that the writers weren't incompetent enough to leave out an important scene similar to the one in the manga which explains why the Zenos plan to destroy the universes now (or at least have a scene to point out the inconsistency like the androids being stronger in the main timeline).

DBS is written like marketing executives writing fan fiction. Boring fan fiction.

>Let's make a 10 man team battle royale

>perfect opportunity for non-Saiyans to shine

>they get sidelined except Android 17

>ignore obvious power ups like potential unleash (they have the Hyperbolic Time Chamber 39 hours is long enough)

>teamwork barely matters except when Android 17 is involved

>everyone vs U7 instead of chaos

>no teamwork training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber

>a technique becomes a transformation because people forgot how to tell that someone has gotten stronger without a palette swap

The anime implied that mortal level had something to do with powerlevel while the manga hinted that it might be more than just that. Now DBS has established that the meaning of existence is higher power levels. Great fucking job.


 No.905821

Jesus christ I hate you niggers. What is there to talk about? They scream and hit each other. That's all it is.


 No.905822

>>905821

>They scream and hit each other.

Just like your parents.


 No.905827

>>905589

>I didn't like how the world is more "normal" in DBZ. Did everyone forgot everything that happened in the original DB?

Nobody made any attempt to undo the damage that Demon King Piccolo did to the martial arts community. Everyone acts like they never seen people use magic before.

I don't think Dragon Ball has explicitly said that the Earthlings reached their limits. However, the Frieza arc was the last time any Earthling underwent the same training as Goku. After that they just brush off Goku's offers to train with them even when they had the habit of stealing copying each other's techniques. And Goku and King Kai are still the only ones that know the Kaio-ken. I do find it interesting that Goku learnt a technique that he isn't planning to use (the fusion dance) just to teach it to the kids.


 No.905829

>>905817

>DBS is written like marketing executives writing fan fiction. Boring fan fiction.

I forgot to add.

>losers get erased along with their universe

>not allow killing

>bait a rematch with edgy OC assassin

>not allow killing


 No.905907

>>905795

The Saiyan names are just rearranged or slightly modified vegetable names, sometimes in English and sometimes in Japanese. You could make a "language" that is just standard Japanese but with the words having mixed-up or reversed syllables, I suppose.

>>905829

>not allow killing

It never made sense anyway. There is absolutely no logical way any character could have controlled their power output to ensure they don't accidentally kill someone. This isn't like the real world where you can pull your punches, because these fuckers are throwing around energies that can destroy entire planets (probably entire galaxies, at this point). There is no way to know when you go to Kamehameha someone off the side of the stage that they aren't so weak they can't protect themselves (or are just weak to ki because they're from a different universe or whatever), and thus prevent accidentally vaporizing someone.

The fighting in DBS, for the most part, has been reduced to EXACTLY like a Dragonball video game. Every character has a certain level of HP, and once it's depleted they are so weak you can nudge them off the edge. But up until that point nobody ever actually loses any capability to fight, same as your video game avatar. Bigger and more powerful techniques don't do any additional or specific damage, they just reduce more HP than punches. You can't DIE, just get KO'ed. There is no real stamina involved; nobody gets tired, they only reach a point where they can't do any more big techniques or sustain a transformation because their ki meter is depleted; but after a little bit of time their ki meter recharges and they can go right back to it. Ultra Instinct was just Goku's limit break technique.

So yes, literally the entirety of the ToP was nothing more than a subversive advertisement for the next round of Dragonball fighting games. You remember when you first played Budokai and thought "Hey, it's NEAT, but not really like how things are in the anime." Well, now all the kids will be thinking "Awesome! It's exactly like how things are in the anime!"

Oh look, Toei is even more rich.


 No.905923

>>904516

>Trusting a kike

I see this is your first rodeo


 No.905936

>>905565

>They sure took their sweet time because he didn't started destroying universes in Future Trunks timeline until he saw Zamasu.

It's been very clearly established that the two timelines are very different. Most importantly in this case is the fact that Future Zeno was brought back to meet Present Zeno. Evidently, Future Zeno is the one who got a taste for destroying universes. Or you can brush it off as a more general, but honestly still not that general, butterfly effect thing. Getting the two Zenos together caused them to act differently and make different decisions than they would alone. I'm willing to bet they even mention this at one point.

>>905589

>>What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

Exactly. Saying "not a good guy" is not the same as "bad." Goku is almost amoral. Or rather, his main motivations are not morality. He obviously does have morality, and he does act on it sometimes, but usually he just wants to fight strong guys, and it just so happens that means fighting the really strong guys who want to destroy the world.

>You are talking about DBZ or the DB manga not DBS which regressed his development.

In Super he is literally waiting for Uub to get to a point where he can be trained. They even mentioned this at one point before the Tournament of Power.

>It is like the "SSJB is about Ki control" meme to justify the poor power scaling.

You mean when he used Kaio-Ken while Blue? That was because God Ki allowed him to be Super Saiyan while having better control over his ki. Although yes this is still pretty dumb because the entire point of Super Saiyan 2 is that Goku and Gohan learned to control their Super Saiyan forms like their regular forms.

Doesn't Vegeta learn to control Blue in essentially the same way at some point? I could have sworn that happened in either the anime or the manga. Probably the manga. Which would imply his next step would be Super Saiyan Blue 2. But of course that would never happen because we've already introduced Green and Blanco, and they're obviously better.

>>905679

>I've never been able to get past the feeling that nobody on the production team -- writers or animators -- gives much of a fuck about Dragonball, so they're just half-assing everything merely for the paycheck.

I think Toyotaro gives a shit. But he's hampered by the way the series is produced, where he's usually just trying to keep up with the anime while fixing things that he can without changing things so much that it becomes a completely different story. If they let him take charge I bet things would be better. That guy seems mega autistic for Dragon Ball, and is probably the one reminding Toriyama of things like Daikaioshin existing, which Toriyama definitely forgot.

>>905782

>There were like 5 Supreme Kais in U7 but there is only one in each other universe.

To be fair, it seems like they're trying to get around to this in the manga now. I bet it's that Daikaioshin was the real equivalent of the other universes' kaioshin, and East Kaioshin is technically Daikaioshin now since Daikaioshin got absorbed. Evidently, the title and its powers can be passed on without people dying if the Daikaioshin is somehow incapacitated. Same thing happened to Old Kaioshin, who Beerus couldn't kill because he was connected, so his title was passed on without his death. Only this implies that he was once Daikaioshin and not just East Kaioshin.

>>905817

>>a technique becomes a transformation because people forgot how to tell that someone has gotten stronger without a palette swap

To be fair, there's no fundamental difference between techniques and transformations. Some techniques cause you to change more than others.

>>905827

>I do find it interesting that Goku learnt a technique that he isn't planning to use (the fusion dance) just to teach it to the kids.

Goku is the only one who learns things just for the sake of it. That's why he's the best. Everyone else does it to beat someone else or reach some goal, but Goku always just wants to better himself, which is supposed to be the admirable trait that makes him so good.


 No.905946

>>905936

>I'm willing to bet they even mention this at one point.

They only addressed it in the manga. For that read my posts here.

>>905765

>If we don't just brush it off as bad writing, it is much more reasonable to conclude that what they meant is they eventually plan to destroy the Universes in an indefinite time frame. Which could mean a 100 years or a 100 million years or (due to the power of procrastination) never.

>>905817

>What I meant by "If we don't just brush it off as bad writing," is working on the assumption that the writers were aware that Future Trunks' timeline would have been destroyed earlier if Zeno always planned to destroy the universes by the time frame of the ToP. This is also under the assumption that the writers weren't incompetent enough to leave out an important scene similar to the one in the manga which explains why the Zenos plan to destroy the universes now (or at least have a scene to point out the inconsistency like the androids being stronger in the main timeline).

>>905936

>To be fair, there's no fundamental difference between techniques and transformations. Some techniques cause you to change more than others.

Transformations are distinctly race exclusive.

>>905936

>In Super he is literally waiting for Uub to get to a point where he can be trained.

DBS is just pretending to take place before the end of Z.

>>905936

>Exactly. Saying "not a good guy" is not the same as "bad." Goku is almost amoral.

Not really. He was upset that Vegeta got the Majin power up and he was upset that Frieza killed his own men. He was happy to hear that certain people reform. He wanted to fight somewhere with less people and he upset about Dr. Gero killing the civilians. He is Neutral Good. Toriyama tries to say that he is True Neutral. Super apologists thinks that he is Neutral Evil.


 No.906012

>>905936

>Future Zeno was brought back to meet Present Zeno. Evidently, Future Zeno is the one who got a taste for destroying universes. Getting the two Zenos together caused them to act differently and make different decisions than they would alone

This is actually kind of interesting, the idea that the closest thing Dragonball has to a capital-g "God" has different personalities depending on which universe He comes from. Because it's the opposite of what happened here. First we had the OT God who was a pretty big asshole, all fire and brimstone and murdering tons of Egyptian children just because Pharaoh spited Him. Then Jesus, basically an alternate version of God, showed up and He's like a long-haired hippie, all chill and kind and healing people and giving them free wine and shit.


 No.906013

>>905822

>Just like your parents.

C'mon now, anon, only one of his parents is doing the hitting.


 No.906016

>>906012

>This is actually kind of interesting, the idea that the closest thing Dragonball has to a capital-g "God" has different personalities depending on which universe He comes from.

First, universe in the context of DBS is something closer to galaxy clusters as it seems to be separated only by distance. Second, Zeno has already destroyed 6 Universes as there used to be 18. I really hate using the term multiverse or universe because it doesn't work that way. It got worse when time travel gets involved.


 No.906019

File: 385dd037b5fed98⋯.jpg (56.65 KB, 640x480, 4:3, anime_smug.jpg)

>>906012

>babby discovers gnosticism for the first time


 No.906024

>>905946

>Transformations are distinctly race exclusive.

There can be race exclusive techniques. Namekians show a bunch of them. A kick is a technique that is exclusive to races that have legs.

>DBS is just pretending to take place before the end of Z.

They've mentioned Uub at least. Made it seem like they would get to that soon. I'd be interested in that. But yeah, apparently it's not gonna be that soon.

>Not really. He was upset that Vegeta got the Majin power up and he was upset that Frieza killed his own men. He was happy to hear that certain people reform. He wanted to fight somewhere with less people and he upset about Dr. Gero killing the civilians. He is Neutral Good. Toriyama tries to say that he is True Neutral. Super apologists thinks that he is Neutral Evil.

I'd agree with you that he's essentially Neutral Good. But I don't think it's that Toriyama is trying to say he's True Neutral, but just pointing out that morality is not usually his driving motivation. Obviously there are many times in the series when he shows morality, but there are also many instances where during the big climactic battle, he admits that really he's just excited to fight such a strong opponent.

The "Super Apologists" saying he's "Neutral Evil" I think are, or rather, were, essentially hoping that they would make that twist because it would be interesting in a crazy kind of way. Might as well since it's not like Super is the best thing ever or anything. Obviously Super makes clear that this is not what's happening, but there was a brief time when you could almost believe it, if it wasn't already blatantly obvious that Super has no artistic vision whatsoever, even a retarded one.

>>906016

You can travel between universes with the cubes but I still think you're supposed to figure it's not traveling simply through space. If you can't fly from the mortal world to Otherworld (but you can teleport) I don't think you can just fly to another universe, no matter your speed or ability to travel distance.

Also, Future Zeno isn't from another universe anyway, he's from another timeline. Timelines encompass all of reality. They're much bigger than universes.


 No.906037

Why don't they resurrect all the sayans with the dragon balls? The last few surviving members of a species certainly wish to revert their genocide.


 No.906048

>>906037

No, they don't. Goku knows they were evil. Doesn't mean it was right to kill them, but it's also not worth reviving them. Or more likely, he never even thought of it because he doesn't actually feel that attached to them. Vegeta used to be too selfish to give a shit. Now he's probably too good to do something so obviously irresponsible.

Also, they couldn't do it with the regular Dragon Balls since they were all dead too long by the time any Saiyans discovered them, and they aren't the type of people who would be allowed to keep/given new bodies in the afterlife. They'd have been reincarnated by now. The Super Dragon Balls could do it but they're actually still hard for a Saiyan to collect so they have better things to do.


 No.906173

>>906024

>You can travel between universes with the cubes but I still think you're supposed to figure it's not traveling simply through space.

The U6 vs U7 was held in the space between the two universes. Hit somehow came to U7. My point is the term universe used in DBS is not the same as the proper usage of the word.

>Also, Future Zeno isn't from another universe anyway, he's from another timeline. Timelines encompass all of reality. They're much bigger than universes.

I'm saying that you can't shift from DBS retarded definition to semantically correct term and vice-verse without causing confusion.

On another note, Lawfully Good in D&D includes the "An eye for an eye" mentality. The concept of mercy is mostly in Neutral Good. Thus the Dragon Ball character that embodies Lawfully Good is Future Trunks because he killed Frieza.


 No.906179

>>906173

>The U6 vs U7 was held in the space between the two universes. Hit somehow came to U7. My point is the term universe used in DBS is not the same as the proper usage of the word.

I don't think Hit or any other major character would have difficulty traveling between universes since they're friends with Gods and Angels. As for the "space between universes" thing, I just assumed it worked like in capeshit comics, like DC's concept of "The Bleed," where it's more of a meta-space. Of course the multiverse is much more well defined there. But yeah they probably didn't think of it that deeply either way.


 No.906181

>>906173

>the term universe used in DBS is not the same as the proper usage of the word

What do you mean, aren't they parallel dimensions? Are they supposed to be instead like galaxies in the same (our) dimension?


 No.906182

>>906179

>Of course the multiverse is much more well defined there.

Is Toriyama a comic westaboo? Or just a massive copycat.


 No.906191

>>906182

Obviously he ripped off Superman's origin and retconned it into Goku's backstory, and there are other parallels between some Superman characters and some Dragon Ball characters, but I think if anything, Toriyama just watched the Superman movies from the '70s and '80s, and stole the origin from there. Anything else is probably coincidence. If he knew about DC's multiverse, he would have made Universe 6 the equivalent of DC's Earth-Three, the backwards universe where the doppelgangers of good guys are evil and the doppelgangers of evil guys are good. And it almost seemed like they were doing this when they said the Saiyans were good there, and Frost was good. Then we got the "twist" that Frost was actually evil, just like everyone initially assumed. Worst twist ever, and also killed what could have been a fun backwards universe concept. That concept always works.


 No.906196

>>906179

>But yeah they probably didn't think of it that deeply either way.

That is how DBS feels most of the time. Toriyama made his outline fairly vague and Toei couldn't get the hint and try to fill the blanks. Then again, Toei keeps fucking up whenever they do that.

>>906181

>What do you mean, aren't they parallel dimensions? Are they supposed to be instead like galaxies in the same (our) dimension?

Universe means all of space. Future Trunks' timeline has its own set of 12 Universes. Thus if there is a Supreme Kai of Space and Time, she should have an existence beyond Zeno.

>>906191

>Then we got the "twist" that Frost was actually evil, just like everyone initially assumed. Worst twist ever, and also killed what could have been a fun backwards universe concept.

When Frost and Frieza finally met, they both commented they "like ruling by power" despite establishing that Frost prefers subterfuge. Then it ends Frieza betraying Frost in a "A pale imitation can't beat the original" moment ignoring that they made Frost into a pale imitation of Frieza. In contrast, no one has a problem with Hit being an assassin. After Hit nearly killed Goku, Chi-Chi started yelling that Frost must have hired him rather than getting angry at Hit who was flying off. I like imagining Vegeta's reaction to one of U6 fighters being Dr. Briefs and Android 16.


 No.906249

File: aa8d968cf154fb4⋯.jpg (49.12 KB, 470x265, 94:53, kneel-before-zod-.jpg)

>>906191

>there are other parallels between some Superman characters and some Dragon Ball characters

Oh fuck, I just realized Vegeta and the sayans are supposed to be Zod & friends. No clue about the androids, except some stages of Cell which are obviously derived from Alien. I guess Buu as a magical being, is somewhat similar to the more fantasy threats in Superman, intended to be a match for him since they operated on a different level.


 No.906261

Be honest, how many of you fags are from /v/ and only use the Dragon Ball threads?


 No.906265

>>906261

>visiting boards other than /a/

>visiting websites other than this one

>running processes other than this browser

>having anything in your home outside of a laptop on the ground


 No.906297

>>905755

>His argument boils down to.

You're already doing it wrong. I've tried to help you better make your case but you're either deliberately dishonest or genuinely invalid.

>Analogies aren't 100% literal interpretations of the situation.

The irony with you using this as a condensed misrepresentation of what was said is that it's already so far removed from what was really posted that it's actually bizarre for you to type this. If you really believe that is what was posted when "boiled down," that's not a good sign.

>Opinions are subjective. Therefore your opinion is wrong.

Not even did the word opinion not appear, but what was posted didn't even devolve into an opinion validation match. You are basically pulling this out of thin air. Again, if this is the best you can do, you are intentionally trying to misrepresent arguments or are mentally deficient. There's no ambiguity, you are being deliberate or are retarded.


 No.906314

>>906297

And you're contributing nothing to the thread by insulting him, so keep your undersized ego in your pants where it belongs and shut the fuck up.


 No.906360

File: 8a322abffcdbacd⋯.png (156.43 KB, 300x409, 300:409, ClipboardImage.png)

>>906249

>No clue about the androids, except some stages of Cell which are obviously derived from Alien.

So is Frieza's third form. Your point? Toriyama copies from super popular things.

>I guess Buu as a magical being, is somewhat similar to the more fantasy threats in Superman, intended to be a match for him since they operated on a different level.

I think that it has more to do with Toriyama realizing that there is magic in his world.

>>906179

>As for the "space between universes" thing, I just assumed it worked like in capeshit comics, like DC's concept of "The Bleed," where it's more of a meta-space.

The Bleed is a meta comic joke.

<The bleed is a term in print that’s used to describe where elements or images touch the end of the page. Documents that have a bleed must be printed on a larger sized paper and trimmed down to the final cut line. The bleed is important because it accounts for the design inconsistencies and the movement of the paper. This small space around the final cut line gives the designer a general view of how the print version will look. It’s very difficult to print exactly at the edge of a sheet of paper so it’s easier to print a slightly larger size and then trim it down to it’s required dimensions afterwards.

It is clear that the Cube is necessary for most circumstance.


 No.906420

>>906360

>Your point? Toriyama plagiarizes, so what uh

You know the point full well, if you dismiss it right afterwards to try and trivialize it.

But the argument was about stories, not just designs. To locate the source of the plagiarism, helps understanding the resulting works.


 No.906434

>>906314

Here's a safe space for you.

>>>/halfchan/


 No.906457

>>906420

>You know the point full well, if you dismiss it right afterwards to try and trivialize it.

>But the argument was about stories, not just designs.

I'm saying the similarities are surface level. Goku's personality is too different from Superman. Goku rarely has to deal with actually intelligent people while most people aren't dumb enough to try to out muscle Superman.

Honestly, only Goku seems to be allowed to make creative solutions. Gohan's "bright idea" to fight the blinding poison is to turn SSJ. If anyone besides Goku was given the main character status, they would have made at least 5 techniques in one arc.

>>906434

I guess we should derail thread to engage with your thought-terminating cliches.


 No.906836

>>906024

>There can be race exclusive techniques. Namekians show a bunch of them. A kick is a technique that is exclusive to races that have legs.

I'm not saying there aren't race exclusive abilities like Namekian regeneration or class exclusive abilities Namekian healing. However, there is no non-race exclusive transformation. Seriously, Goku and Vegeta "trained" to have god ki. That makes as much sense as training to have Namekian regeneration. It makes me think that there isn't as much race exclusive techniques as people originally thought.


 No.906855

>>906249

Janemba feels pretty similar to Mr. Mxyzptlk, especially the version from Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, when he actually becomes evil. But more likely, it was just Toei copying Buu with minor changes, which may or may not have had anything to do with Mxy. It's the same way Garlic Jr. is basically another version of Piccolo Jr, Turles is another Vegeta, Lord Slug is another Piccolo Daimao, Cooler is another Frieza, and Android 13, 14, and 15 are literally just three more Androids.

>>906261

I hate modern vidya so I don't go on /v/. Comics are more my thing, but /co/ was ground zero for the tumblr invasion of 2011 so I can't go there anymore. I'm only into a couple anime, but i'm mega autistic for Dragon Ball, so these threads are some of the only things I go on the internet for anymore.

>>906360

The Bleed goes a lot deeper than that. It's also called the Ultramenstruum, not only in a reference to bleeding, but because comics come out once a month. Comic book issues are essentially the multiverse having its period. Note that the personification of the DCU is an actual character, a female character called Kismet. In the crossover series Marvel Versus DC, Kismet met the personification of the Marvel Universe, Eternity, who is male. They then fucked and produced the Amalgam Universe, a short lived line of comics where the characters were all merged with their other company counterparts. So DC comic books are literally Kismet having her period. Or rather, the stories are her periods and the papers they're printed on are her tampons.

Toriyama, Toyotaro, and anyone else involved with Dragon Ball will obviously never put this much thought into the Dragon Ball multiverse. All I wanted to see was a Dragon Ball version of the Crime Syndicate, with Frieza (or in this case, Frost) being the hero trying to save the multiverse from them. Is that too much to ask? We get ten million other guys who are basically just "evil Goku," but we can't do the most fun version of that?

>>906836

Now it depends on how you define transformation. Other characters have become Gods as well, obviously. Like Dende. Does Dende becoming a god count as a transformation? Or Toppo? Any Kami or God of Destruction, really. Or when Future Trunks was Kaioshin's Assistant.

Having God Ki shouldn't even really count as a transformation. They just learned to harness a new type of energy that they didn't know how to harness before. Goku is so good at copying that just having it for a few minutes allowed him to eventually learn to copy it, and Vegeta is so stubborn and determined to keep up with Goku that he eventually did it too.


 No.906865

>>906249

>No clue about the androids,

The set up to the Androird's arc is basically Terminator. And the arc ran in Jump and aired on TV right around the time Judgment Day came out.


 No.906871

>>906855

>The Bleed goes a lot deeper than that. It's also called the Ultramenstruum, not only in a reference to bleeding, but because comics come out once a month. Comic book issues are essentially the multiverse having its period. Note that the personification of the DCU is an actual character, a female character called Kismet. In the crossover series Marvel Versus DC, Kismet met the personification of the Marvel Universe, Eternity, who is male. They then fucked and produced the Amalgam Universe, a short lived line of comics where the characters were all merged with their other company counterparts. So DC comic books are literally Kismet having her period. Or rather, the stories are her periods and the papers they're printed on are her tampons.

I'm sorry, but this is just utterly stupid.

>Does Dende becoming a god count as a transformation? Or Toppo?

Pretty sure it did for Toppo, but only because it also came with a corresponding increase in power level. I think, at least in the context of Dragonball, that's the only thing that matters. It's a transformation if it affects the battle. What happened with Dende was more like a career change. It seems pretty obvious that basically anyone can be Kami if you're given the staff and go stand on the Lookout.


 No.906872

>>906871

>I'm sorry, but this is just utterly stupid.

It makes sense in context. Note that it's built up over decades of stories from many different series, and even then, the part I said is rather subtle and meant to be inferred from a couple lines of dialogue, not a whole major plot point or anything. But the point is that the depth is there. American comics, and DC in particular, make Evangelion's attempts at metatextuality look ridiculously stupid and shallow.

>It seems pretty obvious that basically anyone can be Kami if you're given the staff and go stand on the Lookout.

God is a title and anyone can get it. I'm sure anyone could be a God of Destruction too, if the title was bestowed upon them. But of course usually you'd want to actually train the person you're going to make God. And that did happen with Kami, but didn't happen with Dende because it was an emergency.


 No.906909

File: d6880159d067406⋯.jpg (2.48 MB, 1600x3600, 4:9, animeZamasutimeline.jpg)

File: a645c205e70eb6b⋯.png (159.77 KB, 433x622, 433:622, mangaTimelinesZamasu.png)

>>906855

>The Bleed goes a lot deeper than that.

I'm just explaining the significance of the name.

>Toriyama, Toyotaro, and anyone else involved with Dragon Ball will obviously never put this much thought into the Dragon Ball multiverse. All I wanted to see was a Dragon Ball version of the Crime Syndicate, with Frieza (or in this case, Frost) being the hero trying to save the multiverse from them. Is that too much to ask? We get ten million other guys who are basically just "evil Goku," but we can't do the most fun version of that?

Like I said, DBS is written like marketing executives writing fan fiction. It is boring, safe, and poorly written. Xenoverse 1 used to make Krillin and Yamcha start using the kaio-ken in higher level fights but it was removed in Xenoverse 2 to be "lore friendly."

>Now it depends on how you define transformation. Other characters have become Gods as well, obviously. Like Dende. Does Dende becoming a god count as a transformation? Or Toppo? Any Kami or God of Destruction, really. Or when Future Trunks was Kaioshin's Assistant.

No, god is a misnomer in the Dragon Ball Series especially DBS. It refer to subset of entities beyond mere mortals. It refers to a job title. It refers to those who have god ki. The distinctions between three definitions get toyed around in two different versions of the Potara earing retcon.

>Having God Ki shouldn't even really count as a transformation. They just learned to harness a new type of energy that they didn't know how to harness before. Goku is so good at copying that just having it for a few minutes allowed him to eventually learn to copy it, and Vegeta is so stubborn and determined to keep up with Goku that he eventually did it too.

1) Mortals don't normally have god ki and Goku isn't using it from an external source so no.

2) It definitely is a transformation.

I take back part of my previous post as closer inspection blurs the lines. The important thing to note is the defining characteristic of a technique. The defining characteristic of a technique is whether something can be taught. An ability refers to a specific action that one can do. Thus, all techniques are abilities but not all abilities are techniques. Then, you get the grey area of racial techniques. Thus, Namekian regeneration isn't a technique unless it must be explicitly learnt. However, people don't call the ability of a bird to fly or the ability of a fish to swim techniques.

A transformation is a passive ability that can be turned on or off so a guess technically Kaio-ken is a transformation. Still "changes Saiyan hair color = transformation" is the logic of the show so don't think too hard about it. The show treated the winner wishing back all of the universes as a big surprise so the intelligence of the target audience isn't particularly high.


 No.906911

>>906872

>It makes sense in context

I didn't say that it does not make sense. It makes perfect sense. It's just DUMB; it's impossible to not roll your eyes and groan when you hear it. But then again, I can't even be sure if you're serious or not when you claimed NGE is inferior to the complete nonsense clusterfuck that is Western capeshit. Unless your claim was that it's simply more complex, which is a no-brainer because it spans decades whereas NGE is only 26 episodes and one movie. You're comparing an entire country to a single house.

>I'm sure anyone could be a God of Destruction too, if the title was bestowed upon them

There's more to it. One can't get hakai powers just by wanting it, and that seems to be a pretty important requirement for the job. My guess is there is something involved where someone (likely the Angel from that universe) bestows the GoD candidate with "potential" that can later be unlocked, like when Toppo accepted his role and suddenly became a monster. But it's not like this will ever get discussed in the series because nobody gives a fuck about continuity or logic, so it's just me throwing ideas out into the air.


 No.907006

>>906909

>The defining characteristic of a technique is whether something can be taught. An ability refers to a specific action that one can do. Thus, all techniques are abilities but not all abilities are techniques. Then, you get the grey area of racial techniques. Thus, Namekian regeneration isn't a technique unless it must be explicitly learnt. However, people don't call the ability of a bird to fly or the ability of a fish to swim techniques.

This seems to make sense. In that case, Goku and Vegeta did learn to harness God Ki, so it's a technique. Goku learned it after using a spell to do it once, and Vegeta didn't even use the spell. Therefore, it's a technique. Probably a racial technique, but it would be cool to see other races have equivalent techniques maybe. Or they could think about it for a minute and say the Super Saiyan God was literally Planet Vegeta's equivalent of Kami. But fuck it.

>It refer to subset of entities beyond mere mortals. It refers to a job title. It refers to those who have god ki.

I can see Zamasu being angry that mortals who have not actually earned the title of God have been using God Ki. That would explain it a bit. But more importantly...

>don't think too hard about it.

Yeah this is pretty much what you're supposed to be doing when you read/watch Dragon Ball, at least anything other than the original manga. Especially Super.

>>906911

>It's just DUMB; it's impossible to not roll your eyes and groan when you hear it.

Naw it's cool when you piece it together yourself after seeing it built up over a long time. It's all in how it's told.

>Unless your claim was that it's simply more complex,

No, that it has better metatextuality that casuals don't know about because it's not in adaptations.

>which is a no-brainer because it spans decades whereas NGE is only 26 episodes and one movie. You're comparing an entire country to a single house.

Fair enough. But to be clear, most of the really meta stuff is in only a few stories. Just the three or four major stories with "Crisis" in the title.

>There's more to it. One can't get hakai powers just by wanting it, and that seems to be a pretty important requirement for the job. My guess is there is something involved where someone (likely the Angel from that universe) bestows the GoD candidate with "potential" that can later be unlocked, like when Toppo accepted his role and suddenly became a monster. But it's not like this will ever get discussed in the series because nobody gives a fuck about continuity or logic, so it's just me throwing ideas out into the air.

Good point about them not giving a fuck. I was under the impression that once you are officially bestowed with the title of Hakaishin, you get the Hakai energy, but you can also get it other ways, as seen with Frieza. But then with Toppo that doesn't seem like that was what was intended. But yeah either way they probably didn't think about it too hard.


 No.907026

>>907006

>This seems to make sense. In that case, Goku and Vegeta did learn to harness God Ki, so it's a technique.

Learning to harness ki makes sense because everyone has ki even if they didn't train.

>Goku learned it after using a spell to do it once, and Vegeta didn't even use the spell. Therefore, it's a technique. Probably a racial technique, but it would be cool to see other races have equivalent techniques maybe.

I was hoping that considering it would be weird for Whis to have a room specifically designed to unlock the god form of Saiyans. Also, other mortals have been selected to be GoD candidates but it could be that they only have it from having a god position, like Toppo being a GoD candidate. I'm not even sure Jiren has god ki.

>Or they could think about it for a minute and say the Super Saiyan God was literally Planet Vegeta's equivalent of Kami. But fuck it.

It feels like a first draft.

>I can see Zamasu being angry that mortals who have not actually earned the title of God have been using God Ki. That would explain it a bit. But more importantly...

The anime said that Potara fusion is permanent if one of the fusee is a god. Does that mean the fusion is permanent if either Goku or Vegeta turn SSJB before fusing? The manga said that the fusion is permanent if one of the fusee is a supreme kai and the 1 hour estimate is based on the assumption that the fusee is a god. Does that mean that turning SSJB should make the fusion last 1 hour? A better written story would use different terms for these. The gods in American God are defined by their need for worship. In that story, there are entities beyond gods that can survive without worship. Something about being primordial elements or something. However in DBS, god is used as a catch-all term while explicitly referring to Whis as an angel and Zeno isn't anything explicit. The Supreme Kais are from a divine race called the "core people" yet we never see one who isn't a god in position.

Also, I realized that the fight between Fusion Zamasu lasted an hour while the ToP lasted less than 40 minutes.


 No.907028

>>906911

>There's more to it. One can't get hakai powers just by wanting it, and that seems to be a pretty important requirement for the job. My guess is there is something involved where someone (likely the Angel from that universe) bestows the GoD candidate with "potential" that can later be unlocked, like when Toppo accepted his role and suddenly became a monster.

Shin said that Future Trunks underwent a "ritual" to become a Supreme Kai apprentice. He should have told him about the healing powers and have Future Trunks heal him or pass the title of Supreme Kai to him. It could have been a good twist to say that Future Beerus is still alive. It could also be a good explanation to why Future Trunks has that SSJ Rage form but that wasn't included in the manga.


 No.907118

>>907026

>The anime said that Potara fusion is permanent if one of the fusee is a god.

I think that meant that one was a Kai, not just a God. Or perhaps that one has to have the actual title of God, which Goku and Vegeta don't have. They're using power they are not legally entitled to have.

>Does that mean that turning SSJB should make the fusion last 1 hour?

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is still a Super Saiyan God, just one that also became a Super Saiyan.

>It could also be a good explanation to why Future Trunks has that SSJ Rage form but that wasn't included in the manga.

That "form" is never called such in the actual anime, only in supplementary material. In supplementary material, everything is a new form. In the actual story, it was clearly just Trunks getting angry and therefore more powerful, which we've seen a million times.


 No.907201

>>907118

>I think that meant that one was a Kai, not just a God. Or perhaps that one has to have the actual title of God, which Goku and Vegeta don't have. They're using power they are not legally entitled to have.

That is only the case with the manga otherwise he would have defused.

>Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is still a Super Saiyan God, just one that also became a Super Saiyan.

Except Vegeta can't turn SSJG in the anime and it had him explicitly refuse to perform the ritual to play catch-up. There isn't consistency between the different versions of DBS.

I only brought up these things to point out how overtaxed and meaningless the word "god" is in DBS.

>That "form" is never called such in the actual anime, only in supplementary material. In supplementary material, everything is a new form. In the actual story, it was clearly just Trunks getting angry and therefore more powerful, which we've seen a million times.

He suddenly gains god ki and he got it the form not watching Goku Black kill his mother in front of him but Zamasu "victim blaming" him. That is like saying that Broly's or Kale's green hair form isn't a transformation because it isn't explicitly named I didn't watch any Broly movie and I skipped most of the ToP.

I would have said that DBS needed a rewrite but it wasn't even good in concept. You could scrap elements of GT and excuse plot of DBO to make an interesting sequel. I couldn't think of a good reason to include Beerus into the canon. He is conveniently not around when he is needed and DBS gave no indication that U7 would need him around or be better with his presence. Majin Buu's origin causes a lot of problems and makes Beerus look hyper incompetent. I rather say that he died like faggot reincarnated as Neko Majin or something.

Talking about what is possible in Dragon Ball is stupid because no one reaching their full potential. The closest person to trying is Goku and he is a literal retard. Only Goku (not counting Cell, Kid Buu, North Kai) knows the Instant Transmission, the Kaio-Ken, or the Spirit Bomb. The Instant Transmission is made from a physically weak race and it is ridiculously useful. He could have easily meet his friends and come home for dinner when training Uub.


 No.907207

>>907118

>They're using power they are not legally entitled to have

This is kinda hilarious. Like, the magical superpower object doesn't work properly unless you've filed the proper paperwork and received your phd in Godhood Studies. Kinda the same bullshit they pulled with how nobody except a Kaioshin can use one of those time-travel rings; but if Zamasu (who is only a Kaioshin-in-training) kills his senior then he's INSTANTLY "promoted" and can now use it.


 No.907234

>>906909

>he target audience isn't particularly high

The target audience of DB have always been male children - young male adults. But the DBS anime is largely aimed at young children, the nostalgia pandering just happened after the unexpected popularity with adults.

DB premiered in an evening time slot which is a time slot for anime that apeal to a wide audience. DBS premier in a Sunday morning time slot, this is a time slot stricly aimed at children.

One Piece flopped in the evening time slot, which lead to Toei concluding that there's no mainstream demand for "battle shounen" in Nippon.

>>907118

>Also, I realized that the fight between Fusion Zamasu lasted an hour while the ToP lasted less than 40 minutes.

It didn't, the Potara fusion ended much earlier because Vegeto used up the power of the Potara.

Potara fusion is almost useless for any non god individuals who are significantly above SSB powerlevel. The fusion would end almost instantly.

I just hope that they also nerve the fusion dance. Fusion has always been cancer, and never should have been a thing.

Gogeta is now canon, and always an option when the stakes are high. There must be a risk, otherwise we're going to get Gogeta every arc from now on.

>>907201

>The Instant Transmission

I always assumed this is because Shunkan Idou needs a long time to learn, if I remember correctly Goku was almost a year on Yadrat before he managed to learn it.

On the other hand Cell learned it instantly because of a zenkai, this doesn't make the slightest sense, but Toriyama's writing got significantly worse after Kondou left.

>Kaio-Ken

Needs a long time to learn, and damages your body. The only usage of Kaio-ken which didn't damage the user was Goku SSB after he learned to control it perfectly. This is more than 2 decades after Goku learned the technique.

This is just me speculating, but I think Toei wants to differentiate Goku and Vegeta more.

In DBS Goku went: SSG >> SSB >> SSBKK >> UI

Vegeta went: (SSG) >> SSB >> SSB2*

*referring to the form Vegeta used against GoD Toppo and Jiren

Goku uses god techniques, while Vegeta uses more traditional Saiyan techniques.

The anime established that KK is incompatible with SS and just barely works with SSB. I think it's safe to assume that it's too risky to use with SSB2 which is an addtional power multiplicator on top of SSB. SSB2 is comparable to SSBKK20, so it wouldn't make any sense for Vegeta to learn KK.

>Except Vegeta can't turn SSJG

He should be able to use SSG, he just didn't use it in the anime. SSB is a combination of SSG and SS, it's heavily implied that SSG is a prerequisite for SSB. Goku took a shortcut for gaining god ki, Vegeta worked for it.


 No.907509

>>907234

>the Potara fusion ended much earlier because Vegeto used up the power of the Potara

So the character uses a form that PRODUCES more power, and it causes them to USE more power from the Potora? Shit like this is why everyone hates retcons. But anyway, SSJ3 Gotenks established that a higher power level also shortens fusion from the fusion dance (this, at least, makes a fair bit of sense as it's a technique and not a pair of magic earrings) so if Gogeta reached SSB5 or whatever it would probably make the fusion so short as to be impractical.

>Cell learned it instantly because of a zenkai

You mean Cell learned it instantly because Toriyama painted himself into a corner teleporting Cell to the spirit-realm, and then realized there was no way he could actually return from there to Earth.

Fuck, Dragonball really is like a nest of rats. The more you poke at it, the more it stinks.


 No.907512

>>906249

Whose the chick then? Raditz or Nappa?


 No.907759

File: 3b418a12414abc0⋯.jpg (47.44 KB, 500x708, 125:177, b67a4166206d60f6816ed114ca….jpg)

>>907234

>He should be able to use SSG, he just didn't use it in the anime. SSB is a combination of SSG and SS, it's heavily implied that SSG is a prerequisite for SSB. Goku took a shortcut for gaining god ki, Vegeta worked for it.

It was implied that Goku can't go SSJG without the ritual in the anime until the ToP. There was barely any planning just like how Disney thinks that it could make the Sequel Trilogy without a plan just because the Original Trilogy didn't have one. Ken Levine of Bioshock actually withheld information about the plot of BS:I from the devs to keep the plot twist a secret. I'm sure that we aren't dealing with that level of hackery but it partly shows why the writing is so goddamn shit. This doesn't make sympathetic to shitty writers. I'm not going to accept something just because some suits think that shameless nostalgiafag pandering is absolutely necessary. I watched Force Awakens & Jurassic World and I just don't watch their sequels because I realized that they were just shitty soft reboots.

<The Instant Transmission

>I always assumed this is because Shunkan Idou needs a long time to learn

<Kaio-Ken

>Needs a long time to learn, and damages your body.

Prior to the Frieza arc, the characters had a habit of stealing techniques from each other. Tien Shinhan, Piccolo, and even Krillin have pulled the see someone doing a technique and doing it. The Z-Fighter did make some attempt to catch up until the Frieza arc. After Goku climbed Korin's Tower, the rest of the fighters had climbed up off screen. After Piccolo killed Goku, they trained at Kami's place and became stronger than Radditz who was stronger than both Goku and Piccolo combined. Then, the dead Z-Fighters trained in King Kai's planet and Krillin & Gohan got a powerup. Then, Future Trunks gave them a heads up on the androids which resulted in nothing except Vegeta getting Super Saiyan off-screen.

Think about it. Goku was weaker than Radditz when he died and trained with King Kai to learn the Kaio-Ken. The Z-Fighters minus Chiaotzu were stronger or as strong as Radditz (at least stronger than Goku at that time) and they aren't strong enough to use the Kaio-ken? If not the Earthlings, then Piccolo who is quick to pick up moves (I know that he didn't train with King Kai but he learns from seeing).

>On the other hand Cell learned it instantly because of a zenkai

I assume that he absorbed tiny bits of Goku when reforming. Also, Zenkai don't work when you do it on yourself but Cell runs on pure bullshit. It hammers the idea that Cell has the greatest potential of all and it was a good thing that Gohan killed him off then there. That is why I'm against the idea of bringing back villains that died rather than the faggotry of Golden Frieza.

>It didn't, the Potara fusion ended much earlier because Vegeto used up the power of the Potara.

I meant in the context of the manga. The manga had more leeway with that but it is still stupid when you think about it.

>>907234

>Potara fusion is almost useless for any non god individuals who are significantly above SSB powerlevel.

>>907509

>So the character uses a form that PRODUCES more power, and it causes them to USE more power from the Potora? Shit like this is why everyone hates retcons. But anyway, SSJ3 Gotenks established that a higher power level also shortens fusion from the fusion dance (this, at least, makes a fair bit of sense as it's a technique and not a pair of magic earrings) so if Gogeta reached SSB5 or whatever it would probably make the fusion so short as to be impractical.

I'm not going to try to fix their shitty retcon. If people need a reason why Vegito defused, just say something about dead and living people can't permanently fuse. As for the fusion dance being shorten by SSJ3, I going to say that it has more to do powering up from the fusion's "base form." Thus someone getting stronger and fusing again later doesn't shorten the time limit. If that weren't the case, Vegito's fight with Buuhan should be about 1 hour or less (more likely a lot less) and SSJB Vegito should only last a few seconds.


 No.907916

>>906855

>Having God Ki shouldn't even really count as a transformation. They just learned to harness a new type of energy that they didn't know how to harness before.

A type of energy that shouldn't exist within themselves. It is fucking magic.

>>906037

>Why don't they resurrect all the sayans with the dragon balls? The last few surviving members of a species certainly wish to revert their genocide.

Why do people keep suggesting this? It is absolutely retarded.


 No.907945

>>907759

>Zenkai don't work when you do it on yourself but Cell runs on pure bullshit

The fact that it doesn't work on yourself is the part that's bullshit. It was just a plot device so Vegeta couldn't go punching himself in the face until he became a Super Saiyan.


 No.907950

>>907945

You can't tickle yourself. Why would it be weird that silting your own wrist won't make you stronger?


 No.907978

>>907950

Well, for one thing I highly doubt that pouring fine sediment onto your wrist would do anything. But the point is that it's nonsense that being beaten nearly to death makes you stronger in the first place; and if it did happen, then it wouldn't matter HOW you got to the state, whether it happened in a fight, you did it yourself, or it was an accident. If you break a bone, it heals the same no matter why it got broken.

Also, you CAN tickle yourself (albeit only for a moment because it require fine motor control to tickle, and you lose that when you're twitching all over from it, so it's a Catch-22).


 No.907983

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>907978

> But the point is that it's nonsense that being beaten nearly to death makes you stronger in the first place; and if it did happen, then it wouldn't matter HOW you got to the state, whether it happened in a fight, you did it yourself, or it was an accident. If you break a bone, it heals the same no matter why it got broken.

It is stupid but the logic is that body releases hormones that rebuilds the body to be stronger while self-inflicted wounds would result in the body telling the Saiyan to stop being a retard. Why doesn't it just keep doing that? I don't know. Maybe it can be done only a few times. Maybe it shortens the lifespan. Anyways, Zenkais are broken as fuck and I can't really see how it can be balanced.


 No.907990

>>907983

>body releases hormones that rebuilds the body to be stronger while self-inflicted wounds would result in the body telling the Saiyan to stop being a retard

This is ascribing an intelligence to a bodily process which has none.


 No.908018

>>907990

>intelligence to a bodily process

There are millions of sensorial processes going about in your body at any time, the whole hormone and endocrine system is essentially organs picking up the phone and talking to each other. Just like you can't tickle yourself, because the body is aware of the source of the interaction (the more you know), then zenkai might have the same evolutionary limit to dissuade sayans from constant suicide attempts.

Speaking of plotholes and Toriyama being a hack: this kind of generational stories always ends up running things in the family. As to say, eventually the various descendants make for both the heroes and villains. You might have heard a famous novel just like this, it's called the Bible. In a better timeline where DBZ became a proper generational story after Cell, right now in Super some of the threats like Black and nuBroly would come from disenfranchised or rival branches of the family (tribes).


 No.908022

>>908018

>you can't tickle yourself, because the body is aware of the source of the interaction

I just told you why that's false. Maybe you would have used another example if there were one based on a myth you heard one time as a child.

>Dragonball should have been more like the Bible

What the fuck am I reading?


 No.908031

>>908022

>I just told you why that's false.

Unfortunately you were too dumb to realize your argument actually proved the opposite. When you said that 'it's only for a short while', you just admitted that the effect is indeed inhibited after a transmission lag. It shouldn't have been blocked in the first place, Einstein.

>Dragonball should have been more like the Bible

You just tripped on your own joke, reddit spacer. There's no need to cherry pick and reframe an argument against no one, unless you feel threatened easily and need to reassurance by yourself.

It was just a note on conflicts in generational stories, dumbo.


 No.908166

>>908031

>the effect is indeed inhibited after a transmission lag

That's not what I said at all. You can't perform brain surgery while being tickled, either, but that doesn't mean you body is actively preventing the ability to perform brain surgery because it knows it's being tickled.

And, I repeat: find me something else that works like this. Oh wait, you can't because you're a complete fucking retard.


 No.908222

File: 842862fbe08d353⋯.png (675.67 KB, 960x720, 4:3, ClipboardImage.png)

>>907990

>>908166

People don't mean that the body literally thinks or talks when they say those things. When talking about bodily functions and evolution, people tend to use a figure of speech called an apostrophe to explain its behavior.

Tell me why do Saiyans only get Zenkai boosts when they are near death? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to be strong enough to not be put into a life endangering situation in the first place? Obviously the body doesn't work that way and it can't rationalize "Frieza is going to blow up the planet in a week. Give me my Zenkai boosts!". The point is that you are taking it too literally.


 No.908447

>>908222

>Some kid on a goddamn imageboard attempts to lecture me a published novelist on figures of speech

This is when I know I'm fucking losing it.

>why do Saiyans only get Zenkai boosts when they are near death

The way I saw it is that being beaten to "near death" is the point where you actually see the biggest gain. After all, being beaten only a little bit still makes them marginally stronger: it's what happens when they train. This has some truth in it, as "training" is literally causing microdamage to muscles and bones, causing them to heal and become stronger in response. Hence why their training under higher gravity or by using weighted clothing is more effective, because it causes even more strain on the body and therefore becomes even stronger. A zenkai is just this taken to its logical extreme: there is so much damage that the entire body becomes a lot stronger all at once.

Now, in real life, there is a limit to this. If you go past microdamaging your muscles and just start ripping them apart, they won't be able to heal correctly at all and you won't become stronger; by the time you get out of the hospital (months) the muscles have atrophied anyway. The thing with Saiyans kinda abstract this because they don't get physically stronger, per se, they just raise their power levels. And except for Gohan (poor pathetic Gohan) nobody ever really suffers a big loss in power level over time from disuse. Whether this is because they train constantly, or because they're Saiyans is unknown. But it's also unlike reality because they have senzu beans and incredibly advanced medical techniques that can heal their worst injuries so they don't suffer any significant downtime.

But either way, this doesn't explain at all why it doesn't work if the Saiyan does it to themselves. At least I'm ATTEMPTING to find a rational explanation, rather than just going "lol, it's fiction it does what it says it does, derp derp derp" like everyone else.


 No.908466

>>908447

>a published novelist

<meaning anything in [current year]

<no one lies or exaggerates in this Mongolian basket-weaving messageboard

You act like people don't know how biology work by taking a figure of speech too literally. I could mock your logic by saying that people calling a boat a "she" rather than a "it" has nothing to do with the boat's sex, then you smugly act like pointing out how you are taking what is said too literally is a sign of immaturity. You somehow think that ignoring common sense is a sign of maturity.

>This has some truth in it, as "training" is

People know how it works in real life. Surviving being punctured in the gut isn't going to result in stronger arms.

>But either way, this doesn't explain at all why it doesn't work if the Saiyan does it to themselves. At least I'm ATTEMPTING to find a rational explanation, rather than just going "lol, it's fiction it does what it says it does, derp derp derp" like everyone else.

So you can accept in face value that the sensu bean can heal a damaged eye, brawny retards have enough energy in their bodies to destroy a planet 10 times over, and a genetically modified cyborg can regenerate from a single "cell" but a built-in nerf to bullshit super power that is only brought up once is too hard to swallow? If you are saying that it is the reason why Future Zamasu can't just stab Goku Black to near death, I would agree that that is retarded but the entirety of DBS is retarded.

>>908018

>In a better timeline where DBZ became a proper generational story after Cell, right now in Super some of the threats like Black and nuBroly would come from disenfranchised or rival branches of the family (tribes).

Goku Black is a bad idea executed poorly so no.


 No.908492

>>908466

>meaning anything in [current year]

Well, it meant something when it happened, before anyone could just shit out anything onto Amazon and self-publish for little cost with print-on-demand. But that was a long time ago.

>You act like people don't know how biology work by taking a figure of speech too literally

That wasn't what was going on. That guy was literally arguing that the reason a zenkai can't be self-inflicted was because the body can somehow recognize where an outside force is coming from and thus not activate whatever activates the zenkai. IT WAS NOT A FUCKING FIGURE OF SPEECH YOU CONTRARIAN COCKSUCKER.

>but a built-in nerf to bullshit super power that is only brought up once is too hard to swallow

Yes, it is! Because as well as making no sense whatsover, and in fact significantly less sense than a lot of the other absurd things in Dragonball, it's FUCKING POINTLESS. It's not even a nerf, because two Saiyans can just punch each other when they can't punch themselves. The reason it was only mentioned that one time was because Toriyama wanted some pointless drama on Namek so Vegeta couldn't just zenkai himself, but needed Krillin's help. Which didn't matter anyway because even WITH the zenkai he still wasn't even close to Frieza.

And it's still stupidly reductionist to shut down every argument by saying "none of it makes sense anyway". Why the fuck do you even bother responding if you don't have anything meaningful to contribute to the discussion? Can't stand to go thirty seconds without hearing your own voice?


 No.908512

>>908492

>IT WAS NOT A FUCKING FIGURE OF SPEECH YOU CONTRARIAN COCKSUCKER.

It is. Also, ki.


 No.908623

File: 4ca1761baaccb16⋯.jpg (36.35 KB, 424x318, 4:3, goku_gets_shot.jpg)

>>908447

>And except for Gohan (poor pathetic Gohan) nobody ever really suffers a big loss in power level over time from disuse.

Remember when Super tried to do this, badly?


 No.908645

>>908623

>Reminder that that scene was in both the anime and the manga meaning that it was most likely part Toriyama' s draft just like Goku never kissing his wife.

Salvaging DBS is like operating on someone only to learn that there is more cancer than man.


 No.908669

>>908623

That didn't have anything to do with power level. Unless they're actively guarding with ki, their bodies aren't significantly tougher than a human's. Why would it be? It's still flesh and bone. Same reason Goku got downed by a laser beam when he wasn't paying attention.

>>908645

>there is more cancer than man

So Dragonball Super is Deadpool? Seems legit.


 No.908721

>>908669

>their bodies aren't significantly tougher than a human's

Exactly, that's why Goku, like any normal human child, could easily withstand a machinegun's barrage in one of the very first chapters


 No.908759

>>908721

What? You mean Dragonball isn't perfectly internally consistent and contradicts itself in every chapter?? Impossible. Perish the thought.


 No.908762

>>908759

It’s a pretty big fucking thing to miss.


 No.908763

>>908759

>perfectly internally consistent

Or tonally consistent, which is kind of a problem when you want to go back to the lighter roots of franchise


 No.908764

>>908763

>of franchise

Of your own franchise. I am well aware of my brain's inconsistency


 No.908767

>>908763

Well, that was kind of the thing. The part where Goku got shot with a machine gun was a gag scene. The same rules do not apply between gag scenes and serious scenes in anime. A character can be punched in the face with so much force that they do twenty backflips and crash into a wall hard enough to shatter stone with no problems, if it's a joke; but that same punch might KILL THEM if it's not a joke.


 No.909008

>>907201

>He suddenly gains god ki

Huh? No he doesn't.

>That is like saying that Broly's or Kale's green hair form isn't a transformation because it isn't explicitly named I didn't watch any Broly movie and I skipped most of the ToP.

It is named. But what you're doing is like how people act like Vegeta and Trunks getting buff in the Room of Spirit and Time is a transformation, when the entire point is that it is not, but they fooled themselves into thinking it was.

>>908447

>>Some kid on a goddamn imageboard attempts to lecture me a published novelist on figures of speech

>>908492

>Well, it meant something when it happened, before anyone could just shit out anything onto Amazon and self-publish for little cost with print-on-demand. But that was a long time ago.

Good job being enough of an SJW ass-kisser to get some publishing house to take your stuff. We all know that entire industry has been cucked for decades. That sure gives you a lot of authority around here.

>>908767

That gag scene was central to establishing the protagonist's strength. Also, the original manga does a great job at minimizing inconsistencies. It's not fair to pretend Super is the same thing. Everything that isn't the manga needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's all fun, and it makes enough sense if you squint, but it's not fair to treat it the same as the original material.


 No.909023

>>909008

>It is named

>what you're doing is like how people act like Vegeta and Trunks getting buff in the Room of Spirit and Time is a transformation

Except by your own metric it is, because those forms ALSO WERE NAMED.

>That sure gives you a lot of authority around here

More than you, at least, because you're literally nobody.

Nobody likes a Dragonball apologist, anon. A gag scene is a gag scene. Just because it happened in a part of the franchise that had marginally better writing than current incarnations doesn't excuse it. All you're doing is dogmatically worshiping the original material because "muh canon!" We've long established that Toriyama is a hack that occasionally manages to create iconic moments, usually when restrained by good editors and critique. Nothing is sacred, and pretending like everything canon is okay, and everything not isn't, is only a lazy technique to save yourself from thinking.


 No.909031

>>909023

>Except by your own metric it is, because those forms ALSO WERE NAMED.

Not in the actual story. Only in supplemental material. In the actual story they just kept screaming about how they had surpassed Super Saiyan, when the entire point of the story is that their mindless training could not surpass it, and only Goku's intelligent training could.

>>909023

>More than you, at least, because you're literally nobody.

>he literally thinks being enough of an SJW dicksucker to get some feminist paper pusher to give him a few hundred bucks for his shit makes him a "somebody" on an anonymous chinese cartoon message board.

>A gag scene is a gag scene.

It's not though. That scene is meant to establish that Goku is hella strong. It's not just something that's supposed to be laughed off. It is supposed to establish his strength, unlike, say, when Mr. Satan survives getting hit by Cell.

>Just because it happened in a part of the franchise that had marginally better writing than current incarnations doesn't excuse it.

I was just pointing out that the original manga is actually quite consistent and has very few contradictions. I actually like the other stuff, all the filler and movies, and I can enjoy Super and GT, but acknowledge that those have tons of contradictions, and that a lot of things only really fit if you squint. But the original manga doesn't really do that, and it's not fair to attribute faults of other works to the original.


 No.909042

>>909031

>Not in the actual story. Only in supplemental material.

Why are you so hanged up about it being named in the story? Future Trunks has a new aura with a different color typically associated with SSJB and he punches harder. Why is that not a new form? Or are you saying that it is an intermediary form which doesn't change the fact Future Trunks gotten a hell of a lot stronger for seemingly no reason?


 No.909048

>>909031

>he literally thinks being enough of an SJW dicksucker to get some feminist paper pusher to give him a few hundred bucks for his shit makes him a "somebody"

If it's so easy, why don't you do it? It's just free money lying around that everyone can grab, after all. Anyone can just shit out an entire novel; all you have to do is sit down and type for a couple days or so and it's done. Simple! Surely someone of your incredible advanced intelligence should be able to manage doing this a few times, and be utterly rolling in that sweet easy cash as you sail across the bestseller lists.

>the original manga is actually quite consistent and has very few contradictions

Actually, scratch that. You don't need an extra money because someone has to be paying you a metric shitton to shill this fucking hard.


 No.909271

>>909042

>Why are you so hanged up about it being named in the story? Future Trunks has a new aura with a different color typically associated with SSJB and he punches harder. Why is that not a new form? Or are you saying that it is an intermediary form which doesn't change the fact Future Trunks gotten a hell of a lot stronger for seemingly no reason?

It's called getting angry. Getting angry makes you stronger. Do you consider it a transformation when other characters get angry and therefore stronger? Gohan did it like a dozen times and it wasn't a transformation. Goku was eventually able to figure out how to use it to help Gohan actually get a new transformation, but only with the addition of a complicated plan involving making Gohan get so used to being in his Super Saiyan form that he basically became Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan. Trunks didn't do anything like that. He just got mad and therefore got stronger, like we've seen a dozen times before.

>>909048

>If it's so easy, why don't you do it?

Because I don't want to be an SJW dicksucker faggot. Why would you think that's a virtue?

>Actually, scratch that. You don't need an extra money because someone has to be paying you a metric shitton to shill this fucking hard.

>shilling

>by talking shit about the current iterations of the franchise and explicitly saying to completely disregard supplementary material like guides.

Yeah, Toei paid me a million zeni to shill a manga that ended 25 years ago by comparing their current output to it unfavorably. You caught me.


 No.909296

>>909271

>It's called getting angry. Getting angry makes you stronger. Do you consider it a transformation when other characters get angry and therefore stronger?

You say the same thing about the regular Super Saiyan form. I'm guess that a character can grow horns and black scales and start throwing black flames and it still wouldn't be a transformation if the faggot didn't go "You can call this Ascended Super Faggot or Super Faggot 2."?

>He just got mad and therefore got stronger, like we've seen a dozen times before.

The same thing with Potential Unleash, Ultra Instinct, SS_"Muh Ki Control", and SS_"Muh Ki Control" 2 Jobber Edition. Toei is just retarded that way.


 No.909316

>>909271

>My morals is the only reason why I'm not a millionaire right now!

Sure thing, buddy. Whatever makes it easy for you to sleep at night.

Anyway, if there is a visible change in hair color or whatever shit, it's clearly a transformation and not just "getting angry". That should be obvious.


 No.909444

File: a3ea6d98e7c5959⋯.webm (15.54 MB, 720x480, 3:2, Early Dragonball.webm)


 No.909445

File: ae714c6d4ecb93f⋯.webm (7.9 MB, 852x480, 71:40, Dragon Ball Mystical Adve….webm)


 No.909822

>>909296

>The same thing with Potential Unleash, Ultra Instinct, SS_"Muh Ki Control", and SS_"Muh Ki Control" 2 Jobber Edition. Toei is just retarded that way.

Precisely. UI shouldn't even be a transformation, it's a state of mind. But yes they certainly treat it like a transformation. "Super Saiyan Rage" on the other hand isn't even treated significantly differently from when Gohan got mad and headbutt Raditz really hard.

>>909316

>My morals is the only reason why I'm not a millionaire right now!

>i'm gonna claim I'm a millionaire on an anonymous laotian cave painting imageboard so that people take my arguments seriously!

>Anyway, if there is a visible change in hair color or whatever shit, it's clearly a transformation and not just "getting angry". That should be obvious.

Not like it's the only time getting angry causes their auras to get bigger or anything. They get mad so they release more ki.


 No.909875

>>909822

>causes their auras to get bigger or anything

I didn't say change their aura; I said change their HAIR. Learn to read, dumbass. It's stupid nonsense to be so small a thing, but that's just how it is in Dragonball with Saiyans. In context, a transformation is precipitated on some kind of physical change, even just a minor one like instant-hair-dye. If Trunks changing his hair isn't a transformation, neither is Super Saiyan. "B-b-but muh canon!" isn't an argument; it's a method to avoid argument, typically used by someone who already knows that they don't HAVE an argument. Although I shouldn't expect much more from someone who thinks everything he doesn't like (or CAN'T do) is an SJW. What are you, still in fucking high-school? Gotta use the insults all the "cool kids" are using, or else you won't fit it? For claiming to be counterculture, you fuckers sure do your damnedest to be EXACTLY THE GODDAMN SAME.


 No.909922

>>909875

>I didn't say change their aura; I said change their HAIR.

Makes it stand up even more straight. Yes. That happens all the time.

>Although I shouldn't expect much more from someone who thinks everything he doesn't like (or CAN'T do) is an SJW.

Everyone knows the publishing industry has been cucked for decades. The only way you could have sounded like more of a cuck would be bragging about being a TA at a college.


 No.909950

>>909922

>the publishing industry has been cucked for decades

So is everything else you're incapable of doing. Funny how that works out.


 No.909963

>>909822

>"Super Saiyan Rage" on the other hand isn't even treated significantly differently from when Gohan got mad and headbutt Raditz really hard.

>implying the color of Gohan's aura changed

>implying Gohan continued fighting Radditz at that power level instead of regressing back to a weakling

>implying no one brought up how that was not normal

Future Trunks went from below Buu tier to SSJB tier and you are insisting that it isn't a transformation? The only reason why it wasn't given a name is because it wasn't part of Toriyama's draft like Vegeta's Super Kawaii Blue. You are acting like I'm talking about Chi-Chi's angry red aura gag.

>>909950

I'm going to point out how interesting it was that this comment chain went to this direction with little input on my part.


 No.909972

>>909922

>Makes it stand up even more straight

Made his hair stand up more, made it longer, made it a different color, changed his aura, changed his muscle mass, and made his eyes all blanked out. It did a bunch of physical changes that I guess you're just willfully ignoring to justify it not being a transformation.

>>909963

>Future Trunks went from below Buu tier to SSJB tier

Wasn't it implied that his power at SSJ2 was nearly equal to Goku's SSJ3 (which, presumably, was a shitton more powerful than it was when he first used it to fight Buu)? All this does is remind me that we have absolutely no way to gauge the relative power difference between SSJ3, SSG, and SSB. It could be a huge multiplier, or it could just be a little more powerful.


 No.910045

>>909972

>Wasn't it implied that his power at SSJ2 was nearly equal to Goku's SSJ3 (which, presumably, was a shitton more powerful than it was when he first used it to fight Buu)?

The manga implied that Future Trunks' SSJ2 form was stronger than Goku's SSJ3 form further burying SSJ3. I forgot about that. I was thinking about how Dabura was around Cell's level and how Future Trunks barely beats him with the Supreme Kai's help. However, that was when he newly unlocked SSJ2. Still Future Trunks had a huge power jump in the middle of the Zamasu arc as he was able to off both Goku Black and Zamasu himself.

I find it funny that the characters had to go out their way to name and introduce their new forms. UI being the only exception due to foreshadowing It is still retarded. Frieza never really bother to name his four other forms but somehow he decided to name his new form Golden Frieza. Despite being (as far as we know) functionally the same as SSJB, Goku Black made it a point to introduce Super Saiyan Rosé.

Goku has a mindset of a martial artist. Vegeta has a mindset of a warrior. Gohan has a mindset of a hero. The series only explored the merits of the martial arts mindset thus it is stuck as the Goku show featuring his sidekick Vegeta, the prince of jobbers.

A more competent writer would have introduced a different MacGuffin to the story rather variations of "muh secret saiyan power" since after the Cell arc. In Yu Yu Hakusho, Yusuke got kidnapped by some humans with psychic power but normal combat abilities after he won the Dark Tournament. He tried to preserved his pride by saying that he would have never been caught if he knew about their abilities only for Genkai to scold him by saying that people aren't going to sit around explaining their abilities.


 No.910050

Next movie will have Cooler and Broly.


 No.910116

Am I crazy or did there used to be a stipulation about the fusion dance saying that after you de-fuse you have to wait an hour to attempt the dance again?


 No.910122

>>910045

>Goku Black made it a point to introduce Super Saiyan Rosé

Well his hair WAS a different color. It was kinda bizarre because his explanation was that it was because he was actually a god that his transformation was different. Okay, but the fact is that Goku and Vegeta were ALSO USING GOD KI so it shouldn't have been any different. It was already long established via Ginyu that it's a body, not the soul, that produces the ki. So Goku Black should have the same ki as normal Goku, regardless of who is inside his head. The thing is, it actually makes the intended impression weaker. If he uses a new form that nobody else has, and dominates the heroes, it's just what we've seen before. But if he uses the same exact transformation, yet still is vastly stronger, then it reinforces his claim of natural superiority. "Oh look, I can do that, too. But I'm BETTER at it!"

>Frieza never really bother to name his four other forms

He's too proud to give a shit. Then he got proud when he got Golden Frieza, and his pride came before his fall. I feel the part about him naming it wasn't intended to be in the same metaphor, but it at least coincidentally worked out that way.

>>910116

There was also a stipulation that you have to be very similar in body size. If all previous rules aren't thrown out the window, you must be watching a different anime.


 No.910166

>>910122

>He's too proud to give a shit. Then he got proud when he got Golden Frieza, and his pride came before his fall. I feel the part about him naming it wasn't intended to be in the same metaphor, but it at least coincidentally worked out that way.

It is called marketing.


 No.910171

>>908669

Why exercise then? It’s clearly the ki doing the heavy lifting and not their muscles because their muscles would tear under the extreme gravity they train in.


 No.910253

>>910171

Micro-zenkais would be my guess, but that's neither here nor there. In reality things are nonsensical because Toriyama is an idiot. Saiyans get stronger when their muscles get bigger, and sometimes their muscles get bigger when they get stronger, and that continues until it doesn't, and then it happens again, and then Goku SSG is full on anorexic by comparison just because Toriyama randomly felt like doing something different. Clearly it's not his muscles giving him strength in that case.


 No.910288

File: 8015bfc37e77ce3⋯.jpg (161.47 KB, 663x1135, 663:1135, goku momma bird.jpg)

>>908645

>Goku never kissing his wife

Honestly I feel like pic related was the true meaning of the scene and Toriyama had a massive shit eating grin when literally everyone misunderstood.


 No.910313

File: f236cea3b75ec10⋯.jpg (105.7 KB, 500x546, 250:273, 4.jpg)

>>910288

it's not entirely far fetched, Goku only got married as a spur of the moment thing and originally thought marriage was a type of food.


 No.910657

I've been interested in picking up Dragon Ball Z on Bluray. It's my understanding that there's only one series release of Kai (is there a collection so I don't have to buy these things one by one?) and possibly one series release of vanilla Z? Weren't there a couple releases on DVD? Is the superior DVD release available on Bluray?


 No.910873

>>910657

The official releases of Dragon Ball are such a gigantic cluserfuck that even most normalfags will recommend you pirate them. Sorry, anon.


 No.910930

>>908767

>The part where Goku got shot with a machine gun was a gag scene.

Bulma shooting Goku was pretty serious

Goku being immune to Rockets where pretty serious

All the Tao sheenigans where pretty serious.

Once they get to the point where they could nuke cities and destroy moons with energy attacks its already pretty serious.

But its not serious in a dark way, its serious in the way that the strong COULD eat the weak.

I think you are confusing 'light hearted' and 'lightly serious', and label everything that isn't grimdark to be of comedic value.

And thats a shame.

I mean, stuff like One Punch Man is labelled as a comedy by people with poor understanding, because it uses shounen tropes as a derail.

OPM has funny moments because its tonally inconsistent between the segments its segmented into, which creates great friction when done in a consistent manner.


 No.910968

So the goat is using what's basically a spirit bomb to drain the planet of energy and take it for himself. He's even capable of stealing power from the inhabitants of the planet.


 No.911020

File: 81e324c4407dd9d⋯.png (33.55 KB, 252x157, 252:157, Statingthefuckingobvious.png)

>>910968

>He steals energy from Vegeta

>Vegeta doesn't even notice so he's clearly not been weakened

>Can't even turn Super Saiyan

That's not how it works. That's not how ANY OF THIS works!


 No.911078

>>910657

What do you mean by vanilla DBZ? Because, for example, the orange bricks, while being shit, aren't the original English dub as it ran on Toonami. The only way to get the original is to buy the old DVDs, and if that is what you're looking for, you won't have, IIRC, 19 episodes from the show, spanning from the Saiyan to Frieza saga, unless you buy those as orange bricks or something else. If you're just looking for something to give you original Japanese, anything but the bricks and kai would be your choice.


 No.911080

>>911078

>The only way to get the original is to buy the old DVDs

I should as far as I know. I say this because I presume the blurays use the orange brick or later redubbing voice actors.


 No.911492

>>911020

He's basically just low-key Yakkon.


 No.911585

>>911078

I think I'm more confused now than when I came in.

I don't necessarily want the Toonami DBZ. What I mean by "vanilla DBZ" is essentially whatever is least censored. I don't care so much about continuity of VAs and things like that - although it would be nice if I could have that. Probably prefer English dub but would want English/Japanese audio tracks. Are the least censored versions only on DVD? That would be pretty unfortunate if so. Maybe I could torrent the various versions to get a better feel for what I'd be getting?

I thought Kai was basically like a different series sort of akin to FMA/Brotherhood. My only real question with Kai is whether there's a US collection release because getting them one-by-one sounds like shit.


 No.911620

>>911585

Kai is a shorter recut of the original series, removing most of the "filler" scenes. They also redubbed it (which especially for the english dub makes it a lot better because the VAs have 20 more years of experience and they got some better ones), redrew some of the scenes with CGI (which looks like hot fucking garbage) and added in new music and OP/EDs. At least, this is how it is until the Buu saga, where everything was pretty much exactly the same as in the originals for the music (at the end of the Cell saga the composer for the Kai soundtrack was involved in a scandal involving stealing music from other artists, and as a result for the last few episodes of that saga and all of Buu they just used the original soundtrack), and it seemed to me they weren't even bothering to remove the filler anymore.

But seriously, the physical media for Dragonball is the worst clusterfuck you will ever encounter. I won't even get into the other issues with some of the releases screwing up the quality or destroying the aspect ratio or having inferior audio, etc..

You're probably better off just torrenting it to begin with.


 No.911649

>>911020

>>911492

I recall a MasakoX video from ages back where he proposed a really similar villain concept.


 No.911695

I know it's Heroes, but nobody is gonna talk about Goku training with El Grande Padre? The Super Dragon Ball Heroes' anime makes at least a nominal effort to pretend it's the same continuity as Super, or else it probably wouldn't have made some changes from the manga (like which Future Trunks is involved). Goku has now trained with the guy they set up as the new most powerful warrior ever again. He should obviously be way stronger than Beerus now.


 No.911792

>>911695

>He should obviously be way stronger than Beerus now

Except he won't be. We all know that. The GoD will always remain "untouchable" until and unless they become direct antagonists, when of course Goku will have to beat them.


 No.911906

>>911792

The manga established that Beerus was the strongest Hakaishin because he was pretty good at Ultra Instinct, but even he hadn't mastered it. If Goku has mastered it, he should be stronger than all of the Gods. That said, Jiren still beat unmastered UI Goku, so I guess UI isn't the be all and end all. Other people without it can just be plain stronger.

Also, they fucked up by having Jiren stronger than a God of Destruction, meaning they clearly forgot that only the weakest universes were competing in the tournament. There should be a bunch of guys in the rest of the universes stronger than Gods of Destruction now.


 No.911955

>>911906

>Beerus was the strongest Hakaishin because he was pretty good at Ultra Instinct

That would be acceptable if HE'D EVER USED IT! But nobody has except Goku. Informed abilities are completely stupid. And honestly, I don't see the point. Goku (and the others) have been exceeding the power of Gods since the very beginning. First Kami, then Kaio, then East Kaioshin. This has never been a problem except maybe for the Gods' pride in the matter (and none of them ever really cared that much, at least until Zamasu), so changing it now is odd.

The really stupid part is that they could easily hand-wave it if they ever showed the GoD doing, I dunno... ANYTHING remotely approaching training?? I'd say Beerus should be hands-down the weakest because he's the laziest fuck around, who canonically spends large portions of his existence sleeping for millennia at a stretch. If they're so powerful despite doing jack shit to earn it, it should be just like Frieza in that doing training will make them vastly stronger very quickly.

Better idea: make it so the GoD's power is directly tied to that of their respective universe. If the mortals in their universe become stronger, they become incrementally more powerful as well, so they are always a little bit above. This means that the weakest universes will have the weakest GoD, and vice-versa, which makes fucking sense. After all, what's a GoD going to do if he can't Destruction anything in his universe, because the mortals there are stronger than he is? But that's neither here nor there. A monkey on a typewriter could make better plots than Toei at this point.


 No.912134

>>911955

>That would be acceptable if HE'D EVER USED IT!

He did use it when he fought the other Hakaishin before the tournament in the manga. But like Goku, it wasn't perfected.

>And honestly, I don't see the point. Goku (and the others) have been exceeding the power of Gods since the very beginning. First Kami, then Kaio, then East Kaioshin. This has never been a problem except maybe for the Gods' pride in the matter (and none of them ever really cared that much, at least until Zamasu), so changing it now is odd.

The point is simply coming up with stronger and stronger opponents for Goku to overcome. Toriyama resisted temptation at first, and had Goku lose the first tournament, so that he would still have something to strive for. Then he technically lost the next tournament as well, but really it was a tie. Then he straight up killed The Devil, who had successfully taken over the world twice, then he literally trained with and surpassed God, and finally won a tournament, proving he is the strongest guy in the world.

Ever since, the entire series has just been coming up with new excuses for new "strongest guys" to show up. Goku was stronger than everyone in the world including God and The Devil, so they had to find someone from out of this world to challenge him, so the Saiyans show up. In the process, they also introduce the King of Gods, Kaio, and Goku gets stronger than him, too. What next? Uh... The Saiyans were actually the weakest guys working for their boss, who is the Emperor of the Galaxy/Universe. Gotta beat him now. But what then? Uh... robots. New robots which were somehow designed to be thousands of times stronger than the Emperor of the Galaxy. But to be fair, this arc was sort of about Goku passing the torch and moving into the teaching phase of his martial arts career. Then he dies and goes to Valhalla, and in filler they have him win a tournament to prove he is not only the strongest guy in the universe, but the strongest guy of all time. But the passing the torch thing didn't work out, so they needed some even more stronger guys. Uh... The God of Kings of Gods. And a demon with vague origins who beat even him. In fact, there were four of him and also a Great God of Kings of Gods, the REAL top god of the universe, we swear for real this time you guys, and the bad guy absorbed him and one of the Gods of Kings of Gods and killed the other two. So he's really the strongest guy ever for sure this time. To be fair, Goku at least does beat this guy with smarts and not raw power, and technically Gohan would still be the strongest guy by the end, except he got absorbed and couldn't fight.

So the sequels go two ways with this. GT takes the Android Saga route and just says there are robots (Machine Mutants) that were just made who just happen to be stronger than the strongest guy ever who just got beaten. Also Goku gets depowered in the first episode. Battle of Gods goes the Buu Saga route and explains there was another set of Gods that were so strong the previous events didn't even warrant their notice. And to be fair, they went back to trying to delay gratification on this one. So Goku is taking a long time to surpass even the weaker guy introduced in Battle of Gods. Then they did the multiverse thing to set up more strong guys who wouldn't necessarily make the Battle of Gods guys look weaker, but ironically, the manga doing something to try to make Beerus look stronger, having him use Ultra Instinct, in fact only served to show his limits, and now that Goku has it too, he should be able to beat Beerus. Of course Jiren didn't have Ultra Instinct and he was still stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku, but Goku should still be close to Beerus either way, considering how much stronger he's gotten since Battle of Gods.

>After all, what's a GoD going to do if he can't Destruction anything in his universe, because the mortals there are stronger than he is?

Presumably they just hire the strongest guy to be the next GoD. Problem is saying that Champa and Beerus are brothers, so one of them isn't from their respective universe. I guess they just get the 12 strongest guys in the multiverse to take their job eventually. Unless someone like Goku or Jiren turns it down. But there's always a stronger guy to take them down. And as we've seen with Goku making Kami redundant except for his Namekian Dragon Ball abilities, those strong guys typically do it for free anyway.


 No.912444

>>912134

>Goku at least does beat this guy with smarts and not raw power

But the Spirit Bomb is literally just a giant fucking ball of raw power. Hah!

Anyway, yeah, it's always just piling more shit onto the pile of Gods and enemies, at least when they aren't bringing old ones back. Don't forget, halfway through Buu saga, Vegeta momentarily reprised his role as the bad guy trying to kill Goku. You can break apart every section that you detailed to make it even more obvious. Like for the "robots". First there were the robots. But they were kinda lame, so we got more robots. But they were just stupid kids, so then we got a bio-robot. But he was a silly bugman so he ate those robots and become a much more human bio-robot. Then he died, came back, and become a super duper bio robot. Then for the demon thing, at first it was just a jolly fat demon, but that was kinda lame. So he split into an evil half and good(?) half, ate himself, and this somehow altered him into a skinny demon. But he was kinda dumb and still sorta weak so he ate a couple people and turned into a genius powerhouse demon. But he still wasn't stronger than Gohan so he ate Gohan and became a demon with a spiffy gi. But he had now become so smart and so powerful that there was nothing for him to do, so he lost that stuff he ate and (once again, somehow) changed again this time into a feisty murderous demon. Who was conveniently weaker just so Goku could beat him. Yeah.

It's also clear that they originally intended for it to be ONLY Beerus, and then they needed a rival universe so came up with Champa (and Whis sister, to boot) but had no plans for any other universes at first, only later throwing some more in there and making it a plot hole as to why these two specific universes happen to have GoD and Angels that are siblings, but nowhere else. So, it wouldn't in the least bit surprise me if Zeno isn't even the last and greatest God in this absurd sorting algorithm of Gods they have in Dragonball.


 No.912451

>>911585

If you want something uncensored, then everything has been uncensored since it originally aired.

>Eng/Jap tracks

Pretty much all anime DVD/blurays should have those.

>Are the least censored versions only on DVD?

No, that's silly.

>various versions

Okay, I'll break it down for you as far as I know:

Original DVDs: this contains the original toonami run, uncensored besides the first two sagas (Saiyan and Namek), is missing 10 episodes because of this; hard to come by, possibly most expensive of the options as you sometimes have to buy individual DVDs.

Orange bricks: DVDs that contain poor quality cels, redubbed by Funimation, uncensored, changed aspect ratio from original 4:3 to 16:9, cheapest

Blurays: Best quality (probably), uncensored, probably the redub

Dragon Boxes: Most expensive, the redub

The last two I'm not too versed on, so take that with a pinch of salt.


 No.912573

>>912444

>It's also clear that they originally intended for it to be ONLY Beerus, and then they needed a rival universe so came up with Champa (and Whis sister, to boot) but had no plans for any other universes at first, only later throwing some more in there and making it a plot hole as to why these two specific universes happen to have GoD and Angels that are siblings, but nowhere else.

Well to be fair, the Multiverse was mentioned in Battle of Gods, before Champa existed. I was under the impression that all the Angels were siblings, all children of El Grande Padre. But it is weird that two Hakaishin are brothers but the rest are unrelated. Maybe they were planning to have the rest be related originally, but then realized it would be boring to have twelve purple cat guys. They could try to explain it. They said that universes that add up to 13 are related. 6 and 7 are also closest together. You could BS an explanation for their Gods of Destruction being related since these are the two most related universes. But naw, they won't care enough to do that.

>So, it wouldn't in the least bit surprise me if Zeno isn't even the last and greatest God in this absurd sorting algorithm of Gods they have in Dragonball.

I'm sure they'll eventually have an even higher one. Hell, they're starting to make anime out of the video game lore, and Dragon Ball video game lore is the craziest thing that's ever existed. I'm waiting for them to just make that into a regular anime instead of this weird five minute promotional thing. Plenty of villains there to use. Not like Super is significantly better or anything. A lot of the video game manga were written by Toyotaro anyway.


 No.913142

People say that the slice of life aspect of DBS are the best parts but that is only because it had more of it than other shows in the series. DBS has the highest slice of life potential due to taking place in point of time which the original manga said to have nothing fucking happen.

>>905398

>>905936

Why would anyone who gives a shit about DBS give a shit about Uub? Uub's explosive potential isn't so impressive. Goku is better off with Caliufa (who is definitely a Mary Sue) as his protege.

>>911955

>Better idea: make it so the GoD's power is directly tied to that of their respective universe.

There is very little in DBS that I would consider a good idea. The idea of multiverse is already possible since the Cell arc and DBS ruined it by misusing the word "universe". It is like sailing the seas when the previous season already had space travel. The idea of a GoD doesn't work because it brings to question why he didn't do anything about Buu. We haven't seen a GoD or a Supreme Kai fulfill their duties. Beerus hasn't done shit for fucking years so there is no sense that what he does is important. Then there are the 3 OC recolor transformations. Goku is going need one of them to power up to beat a GoD so it is package deal.

>>912134

>Of course Jiren didn't have Ultra Instinct and he was still stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku, but Goku should still be close to Beerus either way, considering how much stronger he's gotten since Battle of Gods.

Goku gets white hair when using Ultra Instinct for marketing reasons because people are retards. Jiren instinctly dodged that Katchin block hinting that he had Ultra Instinct but "muh white hair!" means that they have to have it both ways where Ultra Instinct Mastered is a Goku "exclusive transformation" (the angels don't have the Ultra Instinct Mastered™ aura so they aren't allowed to do anything important) but Jiren is somewhat a match.


 No.913204

>>913142

>Why would anyone who gives a shit about DBS give a shit about Uub?

Because the only reason to watch DBS is because you're a mega-autistic fan who is super into the series, so seeing more stuff that's actually relevant to the rest of the series would make it more enjoyable for those people.

>The idea of multiverse is already possible since the Cell arc and DBS ruined it by misusing the word "universe". It is like sailing the seas when the previous season already had space travel.

Timelines and universes are different things. Yeah, timelines are bigger, but whatever. No reason to not explore both concepts. They also didn't misuse the word "universe" unless you're being overly technical about things and arguing that technically multiverses can't exist because everything else is actually just part of one "universe." But multiverses are a classic of sci-fi and they can be cool when done well. Not that I necessarily argue DBS has been doing it well.

>The idea of a GoD doesn't work because it brings to question why he didn't do anything about Buu.

Because he was sleeping.

>(the angels don't have the Ultra Instinct Mastered™ aura so they aren't allowed to do anything important

The Angels are too powerful to do anything yet. The logical thing would be for El Grande Padre to be the last boss of the series, but that probably won't happen. They'll probably never do anything of significance.


 No.913278

>>913204

>Timelines and universes are different things. Yeah, timelines are bigger, but whatever.

And that isn't how those words work in reality or science fiction. The idea of a multiverse is usually about timelines which point of convergence is really far behind. It is supposed to be like rope. There shouldn't be an alternate timeline for the entire multiverse. Toriyama is just using words because "bigger = better writing".

>>913204

>Because he was sleeping.

And there is no indication that the universe needs him or is better off with him. It isn't like DBS tried to show that the planets need to be destroyed to make new planets. The manga indicated that the GoD is meant to stop large scale evil but the anime tried to push the above morality thing. Since the anime hinted that mortal level is directly tied to powerlevel, the whole point of existence is higher powerlevels.


 No.914578

I don't know why the ToP is such a perfect example of how incompetent is the writing of DBS. It isn't even the worst arc. The memes just demonstrate how bad the writing is. Any competent writer wouldn't bring up the idea of wishing back all of the universes in the last minute. It would have been something brought up early in the arc. While in universe the stakes are higher than they ever been, there is no reason to believe that they would lose. The plot is too straight forward and illusion is broken. There needs to be a secondary or bigger conflict. It doesn't need to be a fight against El Grande Padre (but that is unironically better than the actual plot). Maybe make it about Frieza secretly plotting to make sure that he wins the Super Dragon Balls and going as far stopping his teammates from eliminating the opponents too early and trying to knock off his teammates with the opponents but that would mean that Goku made things way worse by recruiting Frieza.

And I know that it was brought up in this thread; but if Frieza hates being in Hell and he doesn't want to be immortal anymore, why doesn't he just become a good guy? The answer is status quo. They are going to bring back SSJ4 out of necessity so that they could start combining forms and retcon Ultra Instinct Mastered to be stronger just so that they can add more transformations in between SSJB and the "perfect transformation".


 No.915141

>>913278

>And that isn't how those words work in reality or science fiction. The idea of a multiverse is usually about timelines which point of convergence is really far behind. It is supposed to be like rope. There shouldn't be an alternate timeline for the entire multiverse. Toriyama is just using words because "bigger = better writing".

That's how it works in things like Marvel and DC. Considering Toriyama retconned his protagonist's origin to be a ripoff of Superman's origin a third of the way through the series, I'm not shocked that multiverses and timelines would work somewhat similar to how they work in that continuity. Also, those are probably two of the most prominent examples of multiverses anyway, so I don't know where you get the idea that that is never how these things work in sci-fi. Of course there are examples like you describe, but there are major examples that don't work like that as well.

Also, of course this isn't how it works in real life. We're talking about multiverses and timelines. Moot point there.

>It isn't like DBS tried to show that the planets need to be destroyed to make new planets.

They've tried to imply this, but yes, they haven't made enough of a point of it to make it really work. In the manga, Beerus has said the fact that there are so many planet busting villains means he doesn't need to do much. Of course he's supposed to stop guys like Buu who go too far, but then he has Goku to do that for him, so fuck it. He's lazy and not good at his job. Even though the manga also established him as the strongest God of Destruction.

>Since the anime hinted that mortal level is directly tied to powerlevel, the whole point of existence is higher powerlevels.

It didn't though. In fact, their mortal level goes up because 17 makes the proper wish at the Tournament, which has nothing to do with power level.

>>914578

>Any competent writer wouldn't bring up the idea of wishing back all of the universes in the last minute. It would have been something brought up early in the arc.

Because it's too obvious and pointing it out kills all tension. A good writer wouldn't have used such an obvious solution, and would have made a point to establish that that solution isn't possible, like when he established that Shenron couldn't kill the Saiyans.

>It doesn't need to be a fight against El Grande Padre (but that is unironically better than the actual plot). Maybe make it about Frieza secretly plotting to make sure that he wins the Super Dragon Balls and going as far stopping his teammates from eliminating the opponents too early and trying to knock off his teammates with the opponents but that would mean that Goku made things way worse by recruiting Frieza.

There are so many things they could have done. Every fan theory online would have been better. El Grande Padre leading the Angels in an evil plot to eliminate universes would have been better. Frieza stealing the Destruction Energy to try to become a God of Destruction or something would have been better. Black stealing Goku's place and impersonating him ever since Goku went back to the future to grab Future Zeno would have been better. Instead we're left with an arc with no real stakes and no real antagonist. You could argue there isn't really much at stake in the Tenshinhan arc either, but Tenshinhan was actually an interesting antagonist. It's like Super went out of its way to make Jiren less interesting. They establish the strong guys on the other team are heroes, so the only really interesting place to go after that is to either go with them blaming Goku for initiating the tournament, which Super goes out of its way to dispel even though it's the most interesting part, or to have them try to secretly team up and stop the guys running the tournament (El Grande Padre and Zeno), but they never even hint at that.

>And I know that it was brought up in this thread; but if Frieza hates being in Hell and he doesn't want to be immortal anymore, why doesn't he just become a good guy? The answer is status quo.

This is what Frost should have been for. I buy Frieza just being an irredeemable prick, but to continue the theme of every bad guy becoming a good guy, Frost would have been an interesting way to have a version of Frieza become Goku's friend. Then they pull the "twist" that the guy everyone assumed was evil was actually evil. Good one, Toriyama.

>They are going to bring back SSJ4 out of necessity so that they could start combining forms and retcon Ultra Instinct Mastered to be stronger just so that they can add more transformations in between SSJB and the "perfect transformation".

If we're counting Heroes, they had SSB Goku be about equal with SS4 Goku, so UI Goku would probably be much stronger.


 No.915182

>>915141

>That's how it works in things like Marvel and DC.

Yes for some reason Flashpoint created a new set of 52 universes but then one of new universes is the Flashpoint universe. It isn't like people outside new 52 universes were unaware of what happen. Then eventually DC realized that practically nobody liked the new 52 and rebooted it twice. The multiverse is basically 52 distinct points in an infinite continuum overseen by a space outside of the said continuum.

>Also, of course this isn't how it works in real life. We're talking about multiverses and timelines. Moot point there.

Scientists have an idea (I didn't want to say theory); that rather than the Big Bang miraculously created the Universe, the Big Bang allowed every foreseeable outcome to happen at once.

>They've tried to imply this, but yes, they haven't made enough of a point of it to make it really work.

It was only implied in the BotG movie with that throw away comment that Beerus killed the dinosaurs. I'm not sure how blowing up planets helps especially that stone aged planet that he blew up in the anime.

Even before the ToP, the only conclusion that anyone can make is that Beerus is bad at his job.

Beerus is lazy.

Champa abuses his power.

Sidra is indecisive.

Because most of the GoDs aren't fleshed out, only Vermoud had a personality/disposition fitting his title. In fact, it isn't even fleshed out on what is the job of the Supreme Kai.

>It didn't though. In fact, their mortal level goes up because 17 makes the proper wish at the Tournament, which has nothing to do with power level.

It was only in the manga while the anime threw a bunch of hints with regards to the powerlevel thing. Still the Zenos did plan to destroy everything if any other wish was made.

>Because it's too obvious and pointing it out kills all tension.

I meant that pointing that out early on telegraphs that you aren't going have that be the main conflict. However if you have to make that the main conflict, that isn't going to help. I'm not entirely sure who to blame Toei or Toriyama. The anime had a lot of red herrings of more interesting plot directions like Frieza's ambition, Gohan's resolve, Krillin hinting the importance of strategy, Vermoud's interest (mostly in the manga), and Jiren's "selfish wish". However whenever Toei gets to do its own thing, they fuck it up.

>Then they pull the "twist" that the guy everyone assumed was evil was actually evil. Good one, Toriyama.

see

>>906196

>When Frost and Frieza finally met, they both commented they "like ruling by power" despite establishing that Frost prefers subterfuge. Then it ends Frieza betraying Frost in a "A pale imitation can't beat the original" moment ignoring that they made Frost into a pale imitation of Frieza.

They could have made him something like Giorno Giovanna. Chaotic Good, willing cheat or steal but not willing to kill innocents. I imagined how Frieza's and Frost's encounter should be more like this.

>So you like ruling by power?

<That sounds interesting. What exactly do you mean?

>I travel around space. Conquering planets and selling them off to the highest bidder. I recruit promising warriors from said planets to form an army that the even Galactic Patrol doesn't dare challenge.

<Humm...I'll pass.

>what?

<That sounds like a lot of work.

>You could argue there isn't really much at stake in the Tenshinhan arc either, but Tenshinhan was actually an interesting antagonist.

The stakes were small enough that Goku can and does lose the tournament. If you want to be technical, Goku only ever won a tournament once.

>It's like Super went out of its way to make Jiren less interesting.

Jiren is almost too boring to be a fan fiction character.




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