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File: 39b7f5890e048b4⋯.jpg (34.94 KB, 343x485, 343:485, 1408110692199.jpg)

 No.11007[Reply]

Would you guys consider any collecivist strain of anarchism to be dead with the lack of mass movement.

10 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.11029

>>11026

then you still participate in a collective in some sense just from using language or learning things from books or making and enjoying art


 No.11032

File: 2cbb584d9c568ff⋯.jpg (34.03 KB, 443x699, 443:699, renzo.jpg)

>>11007

I'm starting to think that leftism as a whole wasn't meant to be a mass movement. There are too many people on Earth and the vast majority of them support the system or don't care, so global changes (be it reform or revolution) are dead. Collectivism isn't but you have to try it on a small scale.


 No.11098

File: 4164e0c2c916d23⋯.jpg (50.11 KB, 540x405, 4:3, 1436938425607-1.jpg)

>>11019

>existence of or interaction with the collective itself

Well only by social structures if the individual is reduced to a mere subject of the idea what unites the collective. Like being a national under the idea of nationalism or a beleaver un the idea of a religion. In collectivsts who are based on society (Unity by idea) you usually get sutch social structures wich restricts the individual of his own unique free expression. Not like we all should be retards but more like that the individual can be honest about everything instead of keeping a fake ass smile around the people he is supposed to respect cause they are comrades or his community. The flaw in collevtists is usually that you precieve others for their social role. (See, like and respect someone for being family instead of choosing to like him for his own individual quallities)


 No.11204

File: f2d7965ee7b7f6a⋯.jpg (90.97 KB, 614x673, 614:673, 1397127829161.jpg)

>>11032

>tfw you can't make "libertarian aristocracy" a meme because people would just think you mean entrepreneurs


 No.11214

File: f1170908b8ba841⋯.png (316.88 KB, 800x531, 800:531, 343f1d74f46df9b195ee5cafa5….png)

>>11204

Why not be baffled dictators?




File: 1467404964237.jpg (73.29 KB, 442x600, 221:300, gvhg.jpg)

 No.10334[Reply]

What are you currently reading?

How is your personal study going?

Have you learned anything new from theory or own experience?

Hows the sex lately fam?

40 posts and 20 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.11189

File: ed9b2e900f44221⋯.png (536.91 KB, 577x855, 577:855, dico.png)

>>11168

I finished an anarcho-individualist dictionary. It was alright but on some entries the author didn't elaborate enough, sounds like he did it on purpose for the tendencies he didn't like.

I started "Nihilist Communism" by Monsieur Dupont, but my problem is that I don't wait until I finish a book to start another, so I forgot what I learned and have to start over.


 No.11194

File: 3e2a961e983a622⋯.gif (979.26 KB, 500x281, 500:281, giphyef.gif)

>>11189

>I finished an anarcho-individualist dictionary

Oh nice where did you get this? Is it more on a book explaining certain individualistic tendecies and also history's or actual defintions?


 No.11195

File: 79cf20daf9bc221⋯.jpg (124.35 KB, 524x668, 131:167, En-dehors-1.jpg)

>>11194

>Oh nice where did you get this?

At the anarchist library I manage.

>Is it more on a book explaining certain individualistic tendecies and also history's or actual defintions?

It's definitions, for example there is an entry on "agorism", another one on "illegalism". There are also entries on individualist thinkers such as Stirner or Zo d'Axa. Sadly I don't think there is an english translation of this book.


 No.11196

File: 154a7c61392a003⋯.jpg (102.88 KB, 800x533, 800:533, 1444551033155.jpg)

>>11195

Whats it actually like to manage a anarchist library? Alot of Novatore over there? Also have Mutualist books like Tucker instead of a book


 No.11197

>>11196

>Whats it actually like to manage a anarchist library?

Boring because we are in a dead end street, so not a lot of people come. We are only open on saturdays tho.

>Alot of Novatore over there? Also have Mutualist books like Tucker instead of a book

Sadly no, or I didn't searched enough.




File: 1464293232795.jpg (83.85 KB, 600x526, 300:263, 1460035280489.jpg)

 No.10062[Reply]

PLEASE REMEMBER TO USE THE CYCLICAL THREADS:

Debate Anarchism: >>10259

FAQ thread: >>7070

Council Thread (board moderation): >>6653

Book Club Thread: >>4872

UPDATES ON BOARD RESTORATION

If you have any suggestions specific to restoring the board, adding new features, new external services, post them here.

To Do:

-Finish neocities page: Add content to the knowledge base pages

-Start a board zine

-Get moar posters on /anarcho/

Done:

-0ch.org is live get fukkin HYPE

-Github: Shout out to DrEvilBrain for cleaning up the code and adding a bunch of shit to the knowledge base. Thanks a ton <333

-neocities page is up: anarcho.neocities.org

-#/anarcho/ on Freenode is up. Use it!

-#anarcho on Rizon is up. Use it!

68 posts and 10 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
Post last edited at

 No.11810

test.


 No.11811


 No.11812

seems like 8ch uses a different tripcode formula than my tripcode gen


 No.12079

>>11812

Secure tripcodes are different for each site. You need to use normal tripcodes which are universal (single #).


 No.12470

test




File: 1471456755201.webm (1.16 MB, 840x630, 4:3, 1469200673887.webm)

 No.10935[Reply]

does anyone have some anarchotranshumanist literature? it seems like an interesting idea but, the manifesto, has ess jay doubleyoo bulshit.

9 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.11065

File: 674b05102af2ec3⋯.jpg (51.65 KB, 652x720, 163:180, 2Jl8ZFC.jpg)

>>10991

>Transhumanism has a pretty strong relevance to feminism and gender issues


 No.11066

File: 52f8cabd5742e28⋯.pdf (5.24 MB, Haraway-CyborgManifesto-1 ….pdf)

>>11065

fam

read Donna Haraway


 No.11082

File: c43b42caa51335b⋯.png (223.27 KB, 714x607, 714:607, 1415895348890.png)

>>11066

>socialist-feminism


 No.11084

File: c66d4c8b905ac6f⋯.gif (2.35 MB, 300x200, 3:2, 1443417781497.gif)

>>11082

>not being up par with queer theory

Dont oppress me with social pressure okay!

Why do you dissmiss that pdf anon?


 No.11234

Leave the anti-feminism at /leftypol/ please.




File: 1470737506555.jpg (95.51 KB, 728x546, 4:3, 1464011075147.jpg)

 No.10779[Reply]

Do you guys watch any anarchist social channels on youtube?

11 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10867

File: 1470996161116.jpeg (69.63 KB, 771x714, 257:238, 81e05da0c84756581670907f7….jpeg)

Bamp


 No.10885

ayylmao OpAnarchism comrades.

It was just pointed out to me that some of you lurk on this board. I just wanted to say glad to have you here and generally doing what you're doing, and that I'm gonna link your website on the board's announcement thing. Solidarity and all that.


 No.10886

>>10885

flag tbh


 No.10889

I watch anarchopac, he knows his shit on politics and philosophy, also badmouseproductions is cool.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3FD64RRsrCLpiZNkq7ZkSg

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFEmOPY04flXH-QpMMAGeJA


 No.10892

>>10816

Egoism is still an ethical theory. If you're saying that the way we act or the way we do act is selfish or self-interested – then that's an ethical claim. You can't really get around that.




File: 1466858801223.jpg (113.65 KB, 672x1100, 168:275, 1466691453919.jpg)

 No.10251[Reply]

What do you guys think of this qoute in the Me Myself and my Own.

However, will not they likewise sooner or later learn to understand what is to their advantage? August Becker says:[22] “To win the producers (proletarians) a negation of the traditional conception of right is by no means enough. Folks unfortunately care little for the theoretical victory of the idea. One must demonstrate to them ad oculos how this victory can be practically utilized in life.” And (p.32): “You must get hold of folks by their real interests if you want to work upon them.” Immediately after this he shows how a fine looseness of morals is already spreading among our peasants, because they prefer to follow their real interests rather than the commands of morality.

Qoutes used by Stirner here are from the book: Die Volksphilosophie unserer Tage (The popular philosophy of our day.) by August Becker

6 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10393

File: 1467666223786.jpg (127.42 KB, 905x1280, 181:256, 1441740028117.jpg)

>>10391

What interests me the most about the quote is that it says that to have people support your cause you need to appeal to their personal/material interest. Something people want, not a pursuit for uthopia or new society but an ability for people to realize their own desires and pashions. Appeal to their interest! What i enjoy about this quote is that you need to appeal to people their hidden egoism! Not their spirtitualism.


 No.10714

File: 1469225134977.png (800.64 KB, 1375x1892, 125:172, 1458471387184.png)

Toot


 No.10767

File: 1470657341220.jpg (30.78 KB, 484x326, 242:163, i warned you bro.jpg)

Please respond, do you guys think that the appeal to direct interest of the population is the basis of revolutionary support when it comes to the revolution?


 No.10791

>>10767

I would have to agree so. Even now its hard to actually get people to even acknowledge that a problem exists much less agree with a solution. Of course the issue with that is you end up generalized popular movement along the lines of the later stages of Occupy Wall Street with diluted messages.

Appeals to one's ego only goes so far if you cannot properly educate them. No one would ever take action without some sort of personal personal gain (many of us personally want a better world) but when the revolution seems to a big fuss for something that doesn't matter in the end then why would regular people even begin to support the cause.


 No.10800

File: 1470909475152.jpg (10.94 KB, 255x224, 255:224, 1459642896255-2.jpg)

>>10791

>why would regular people even begin to support the cause.

I gues if they have nothing to lose theyr would be more dedicated for sutch a thing as it remains their only spark of hope i gues. The revolutions back in the 19th century were verry understandable for their terrible conditions making everybody be able to put work down and go reform society by force.




File: 1469026638604.png (849.14 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, 1374609767073.png)

 No.10684[Reply]

Wolfi is the best post left theorist individual and you cant do nothing about it but accept your socai role in the tyrrany of society.

7 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10721

>>10719

It is. To be a good individualist, you have to look at everyone as an individual, and nothing else. This is why Stirner is an egoist, not an individualist.


 No.10722

File: 1469300317135.jpg (39.63 KB, 449x401, 449:401, 1461334548090.jpg)

>>10721

>To be a good individualist, you have to look at everyone as an individual

>A good individualist

>>>/liberty/


 No.10725

>>10692

I think being a police informant counts doing something literally wrong.


 No.10727

>>10725

Reported


 No.10733

File: 1469385846376.png (1.64 MB, 636x1092, 53:91, Costanza Ayn Rand.png)

>this thread

For a second there I nearly bought that this was going to be a quality chinese porcelain molding board, but you guys are seriously trying your best to make this board worse than bunkerchan




YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

 No.10439[Reply]

Fuck trying to discuss this shit on /leftypol/.

5/11 cops dead so far in the wake of two murders of unarmed black men this week alone, with murders of unarmed black men at the hands of the cops happening on more than a weekly basis. Bombs were planted, no civilians killed, and this was a coordinated attack against the police state.

I honestly find it hard to believe that there are people who still had it in them to accomplish shit like this. This is huge.

Even being a nihilist, I'm inclined to say that this is going to lead to some real changes in the political climate in the US. The failure of reformism in the form of Bernie Sanders and the failure of peaceful liberal protest against police brutality seem to be coming together into some actual revolutionary fervor, but who knows.

60 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10680

>>10637

Lets see you declare "solidarity with ISIS", then.

>>10669

The same reason that the various militaries bombed civilian areas during the second world war, retard.


 No.10682

>>10680

There's literally nothing in my post that would indicate I have any intention of declaring solidarity with ISIS you fucking retard. If you're going to straight up deny that the terrorist attacks against the West aren't the fucking logical consequence of hundreds of years of imperialism then I honestly don't even know why you're here.


 No.10698

>>10682

Oh dear, you're now resorting to deliberately misrepresenting my argument and lying through your teeth because you've been caught out. Lets return to what you stated here: >>10637

>they weren't exactly attacking the power structure itself, but the attacks were certainly the result of oppressive power structures that have affected the subaltern and continue to in the Middle East

This is exactly the same reasoning that has cause this board to declare solidarity with Micah Johnson. Again, I'm still waiting for you declare solidarity with ISIS. Chop chop.


 No.10700

>>10698

Maybe you should demonstrate in what sense the reasoning is the same, because I'm not seeing it. The two actions were qualitatively different through and through, and unlike Johnson, a terrorist killing a bunch of random civilians is someone acting as a representative of fundamenalist religious extremists like ISIS. Johnson on the other hand was kicked out of any of the black nationalist groups he was a part of.


 No.10704

>>10700

No. Let's look at your post. For starters you describe the ISIS attacker as:

>a terrorist

This is simply an emotive term to describe enemy militants. The right are using exactly this word to describe Micah Johnson.

>Johnson on the other hand was kicked out of any of the black nationalist groups

Those same black nationalist groups have stated that he was expelled for operational reasons( i.e. he would not obey orders), not ideological ones.

Furthermore…

>someone acting as a representative of fundamenalist religious extremists

Oh look at this, all of a sudden the motives of militants have started to fucking matter. Which is exactly my point.




File: 1468561075757.webm (7.42 MB, 320x240, 4:3, Ay_Carmela_-_Viva_la_Quin….webm)

 No.10569[Reply]

Can we get an /anarcho/ webm dump? will post what i have.

61 posts and 61 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10631

File: 1468568554019.webm (7.63 MB, 854x480, 427:240, Wolf on Bernie.webm)


 No.10633

File: 1468569049420.webm (7.43 MB, 1440x1080, 4:3, wolf on crisis.webm)


 No.10634

File: 1468569300402.webm (7.64 MB, 482x356, 241:178, Wolf on republicans.webm)


 No.10635

File: 1468569501229.webm (5.78 MB, 480x270, 16:9, Wolf on the Market.webm)


 No.10636

File: 1468569564291.webm (3.73 MB, 1440x1080, 4:3, work to much to fuck.webm)




File: 1426403554270.gif (51.31 KB, 500x630, 50:63, no-exit-libertarianism-ana….gif)

 No.8080[Reply]

what is the difference between anarchism and libertarianism ?
11 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10514

>>8081

shouldn't that be on >>>/liberty/


 No.10515

>>10514

Did you really need to bump this thread for that?


 No.10523

>>8788

You're extending the definition of a state to include any association. I'm not really sure why you think it's a productive move.


 No.10524

>>8796

Oh you dummy. Why would you bump this thread?


 No.10531

I feel like I should probably autosage or delete this thread. Seems more appropriate for the /debateanarchism/ thread




File: 1466818542170.png (22.36 KB, 600x600, 1:1, Anarchy-symbol.svg.png)

 No.10246[Reply]

How shall anarchism function after an anarchist revoltuion? I've often heard people say "Anarchism means no rulers, not no rules", as if there was any difference.

I've seen anarchists on this board imagine a council, the chosen leaders of a community, who make decisions concerning organization of workers and distribution of the products of their labour (the council is, of course, composed of workers themselves)

But how does this differ from a state? Does not the council make rules that members of a community must follow? Is this not an organizatioon with a monopoly on the use of violence?

Or is it completley voluntary - and in which case, how does this work? What about dissenters?

I am an anarchist, but I am having second thoughts. I cannot go to Marxism or other modes of thoughts because they are statist, but I am starting to have concerns about anarchism's dedication to statelessness.

Does anyone know any good articles or pdfs they could link me to? (on both sides of the issue?)

5 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10434

>>10433

>Stirner was an admitted anarcho-communist

Confirmed for not having read Stirner.

Stirner didn't even identify himself as an anarchist. If I remember correctly, anarchism hadn't even become a thing yet since Stirner predates Proudhon. He called his theory egoism, and it has a lot in common with anarchism and has been highly influential on anarchists - especially contemporary anarchism - but it also differs in a lot of ways from classical anarchism. Most notably in its insistence on individuality and amoralism, compared to the moralist collectivism of Kropotkin.

Nietzsche was even more explicitly critical of classical anarchists for them being what he considered basically liberalism par excellence (along with socialists in general).


 No.10435

>>10434

Stirner talks about Proudhon a lot in his book. He's not a fan.


 No.10436

>>10435

Damn I was way off on that part. Nevertheless, the point remains that Stirner was highly critical of anarchists and communists.

Not that you can't interpret and utilize Stirner's ideas towards a synthesis of egoism and communism like For Ourselves tried to do, but trying to claim that Stirner was an admitted anarcho-communist is just a fucking lie. There wasn't any sort of communist theory resembling Stirner's ideas in his day.


 No.10437

>>10434

>>10436

william godwin was a communist fam


 No.10438

>>10437

Kropotkin seemed to think so. I don't really see his reasoning for that. From what I've read by Godwin, he's more the spiritual forefather of anarchism than an actual theorist. He seems to mostly just express anarchist sentiments.




File: 1467694029438.jpg (103.99 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, image.jpg)

 No.10398[Reply]

Maybe the evidence wasn't there in that most recent thread, but there has been a fair amount of leftypol posters that have defended you in the past. I'm certain that I'm not the only one that'll miss you if you leave leftypol forever.

Please don't go :(

5 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10416

File: 1467771279674.png (314.73 KB, 548x720, 137:180, sunset shimmer.png)

>>10406

Be nice…


 No.10417

Hey, what the fuck's this. A couple days ago some poster was relentlessly trying to get an an-fem to post her tits, and then some an-nihilist told her just to go to anarcho because there's less autism and it's quote "comfy as fuck" . I just didn't want the anfem to leave forever, I liked her posts.

And then I just remembered to check this thread, just few moments ago. So I come into this thread now, really stoned atm, and find a most decidedly UN-comfy atmosphere. I feel misled


 No.10418

not even a weeb


 No.10419

It was a pretty shit OP. The thread was a shitty idea anyway. I dunno. The un-comfy reaction surprised me, that's all. I guess I deserve it anyhow. I used to be an anarchist, but I was younger and rushed into into whithout any theory. I just burned myself out with it. I'm some sort of socialist now, I don't know. Anyway, sorry for shitting up your board.


 No.10423

>>10417

>>10419

The comfy atmosphere can't be maintained without having a lesser degree of tolerance for shitposts than /leftypol/ m8. But nevertheless I appreciate you not being a dick about it.




File: 1425332448597.png (8.58 KB, 135x135, 1:1, Orain[1].png)

 No.7801[Reply]

Okay, let's try something we can use to populate the wiki:
Tell us about the latest anarchist-related book you have read, and if possible give us a short review.
7 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10290

>>10280

The original resource guide, maybe it will help.

https://sites.google.com/site/anarchoguide/

I dunno, we used to have pretty great albeit unfinished articles in the /anarcho/ wiki. It was a resource for learning and discussion, and I think we would really benefit from that, to the extent that we are a "community" of sorts.

Just please no wikia.

A site that's generated from a github (or gitgud) repo would be great, so long as there is some sort of interface for people who can't code to interact with it.


 No.10291

>>10290

Due to how the site is set up right now, you would probably at least need basic knowledge of HTML so you can be consistent with the formatting.


 No.10296

>>10290

The old resource guide is my inspiration for the new one. I've been using it to an extent, but also adding to it because the old one felt kind of half-finished and like there was way too much information for some ideologies/platforms, and way too little for others. And also there's dead links to clean up.

Well, like I said, I'll support a wiki, I just don't think I'm personally going to be involved in working on it. And I think it's something that the community should take part in since it's something that was brought up by it. I'll try to do the same for the neocities page. I've never actually put any code on github pls no bully but I'll look into that too.

At the moment though, I don't have any kind of front-end on the neocities page so you've gotta know some HTML/CSS.


 No.10300

>>10296

>>10290

Keep in mind that you need to run non-free JavaScript to use Github.


 No.10301

A Day Mournful and Overcast is probably the best thing I've read on Spain so far. The Iron Column was based.




File: 1449811560079-0.png (27.91 KB, 400x311, 400:311, 1449631924608-0-pol.png)

File: 1449811560202-1.jpg (187.32 KB, 639x477, 71:53, 1449637580996-pol.jpg)

 No.9710[Reply]

Recently there was a thread on /pol/ about the Piratebox. It's software that runs on a router that enables users to share files and chat anonymously.

5 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10239

You could just drop I2P and tor onto the pocket router, plug in a mobile data stick and transparently proxy everything. Darknet comms for occupations and demos. This sort of stuff is easy to do with OpenWrt. I've got the kit to knock up a proof on concept if you're interested.


 No.10243

>>10239

Sounds interesting. Post that shit nigga


 No.10270

>>9710

Would this be useful for people to connect to to communicate during riots?


 No.10272

>>10270

Assuming that there would be a need for such a thing: Yeah, I think so. It would depend on whether the hardware you're running it on would be powerful enough to broadcast to the local area you need a private channel to communicate on, or if you could set up enough access points in the area.

But you could have it secured with WPA2 and share the password among your affinity group. You could also use it as a private media server for uploading footage of police brutality, for example.

The possibilities with the Piratebox are endless, but unfortunately it just doesn't seem to be getting utilized enough.


 No.10278

>>10270

Extremely useful I would say even if it were just one solitary piratebox. A more useful thing would be an actual meshnet.




File: 1465468515114.jpg (149.82 KB, 620x450, 62:45, emma-goldman-anarchist.jpg)

 No.10119[Reply]

Now that the dust has finally settled and Bernie has lost (like we all knew he would), I'd like to bring up a topic that I've for awhile kind of assumed to know the answer to when directed towards other anarchists: Did any of you vote?

I've always thought that it makes no sense for an anarchist to acknowledge that the State exists purely to suppress the ruled, and yet can still tacitly think that the State nonetheless would ever allow for the possibility of its own apparatuses being used against it. AFAQ has a pretty comprehensive section about voting and why it's useless, but basically the main points of it are that voting is useless because even if a genuine revolutionary were able to somehow win - despite elections being a rigged game where money and connections are what get you votes - you'd still have to deal with the pressures of the rest of the government. All of whom are not revolutionaries, but rather are basically bought and paid for by the corporate elite.

Don't get me wrong, I like Bernie for what he is, but it seems to me that the only decent defenses an anarchist would be able to come up with for why they'd vote at all is that it either is better than doing nothing, or because it might lead to a revolution when reformism fails.

IMO: It is far more revolutionary to stay at home and do something you enjoy, in a society where we are encouraged to constantly go through the motions because our lives are so empty and boring that we have nothing else we're willing to sacrifice for, than to go through the motions by voting.

And historically: Reformism has also lead to fascists taking power, such as with Nazi Germany.

So did you vote? Did you even give a fuck about Bernie?

7 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.10160

i will leave this Élisée Reclus pamphlet excerpt on it:

>To vote is to give up your own power.

>To elect a master or many, for a long or short time, is to resign one's liberty.

>The possession of power has a maddening influence; parliaments have always wrought unhappiness.

>In ruling assemblies, in a fatal manner, the will prevails of those below the average, both morally and intellectually.

>To vote is to prepare shameful treachery and traitors.

> Therefore, do not part with your freedom.

>Don't vote!

>Instead of entrusting the defense of your interests to Others, see to the matter by yourselves. Instead of trying to choose advisers that will guide you in future actions, do the thing yourselves, and do it now! Men of good will shall not have to look long in vain for the opportunity.

>To put on others' shoulders the responsibility of one's actions is cowardice.

>Don't vote!

https://archive.org/stream/al_Elisee_Reclus_Why_Anarchists_don_t_vote_a4/Elisee_Reclus__Why_Anarchists_don_t_vote_a4_djvu.txt


 No.10185

>>10119

Chomsky advocates voting for pragmatic reasons.


 No.10186

>>10120

>Reformism is awful, but actual reforms are what stopped children being sent down mine shafts so it's important to acknowledge the difference between reformism and reforms.

Holy shit that doublethink. You either make life better in the interim or you decline and *maybe* get a revolution sooner.


 No.10188

>>10185

tbh who cares what Noam "Free speech for fascists" "Pol Pot did nothing wrong" Chomskek says. He's just a convenient figurehead for anarchism and a good cultural analyst.

>>10186

How is that doublethink?


 No.10235

>>10185

The big problem I have with not voting is that the boss class and their lackeys will regardless and just claim everyone agrees with them.




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