/anarcho/ - Anarchism Board

That's because nationalism is a statist thing to make sure the masses hate what the state hates. Being born in one country or another has zero relevance in anything.

>>6006
That's not what they mean. National anarchists use a different definition of nationalism.
Nationalism≠Nation-state
Nationalism=community
I would say it's more bad choice of words than them being fascists.

>>6002

Kinda falls into the same category as anarcho-statism, anarcho-monarchism, and anarcho-capitalism. The only thing anarchist about them is the fact they call themselves anarchists, its just to give them an image. Other than that they have no relation to the historic anarchist movement, and basicly batserize the anarchist analysis of all the problems in society and while giving some actual anarchist answers usually just blame it on niggers and spics.

>>6024
>Other than that they have no relation to the historic anarchist movement

Except to Charles Malato, http://8chan.co/anarcho/res/5214.html

>>6027
One anarchist who believed racist federations were an unavoidable outcome of anarchism does not constitute anarcho-nationalism as being part of the historical anarchist movement.

Im not even sure why you brought them up since nationalists anarchism wasnt even a thing at the time, and he has no connection to nationalist anarchism.

>>6029

You are correct that there wasn't anything approximating an anarcho-nationalist or anarcho-racist school at that time. You are also correct that Malato was not an A-lister like Goldman or Tucker or Kropotkin, and that this connection between anarchism and racism (Malato's definition) did not get embedded into the catechism.

Nevertheless, any history you look up on Malato indicates that he was still a "somebody" worthy of note during his time, and that his 1897 text establishes a precedent for giving consideration to racism or nationalism as anarchists.

I also bring it up because, while NAM certainly does have its own specific movement history regarding Troy Southgate and his inputs, any criticism of NAM will likely contain a broader ideological bearing that has implications for those with similar sentiments.

>>6024
>hurrr i don't grasp other types of anarchy therefore it's not anarchies!!11!

listen, i'm not the biggest fan of the nam movement, but stfu you poncy faggot

>>6024
I don't think there are any self-described "anarcho-statists", but I think that the anarcho-monarchists mean a symbolic king (like we have in Norway that doesn't do anything), so such a symbolic tribal "king" can't oppress people.

>>6045
>you know all those fringe ideologies of anarchism that have no actual connection the the anarchist movement in any way other than the fact they call themselves anarchists to make themselves feel more important

See

>>6031

Just for clarity, I'm a separate anon from
>>6013
>>6040
>>6042

Keep forgetting to include the flag to distinguish myself

>>6055
I know who you are anon, we have ID's.

Anyway i still don't see how Malato coming to the conclusion that racists federations would be the only possibility in an anarchist (rather specifically anarcho-communist) society means that anarcho-nationalism was a part of the historic anarchist movement. Its not even because what he's saying isn't kinda inline with nationalist-anarchism, it is, but i can't find anything else similar to it in writing from another anarchist during the time.

>>6055
Even if you don't agree with me necessarily, you still have to see the problem i have with this, right?

Much like anarcho-capitalism, the idea of anarcho-nationalism is inherently contradictory and absurd.

>>6079
I can absolutely respect your trepidation regarding this, yes. I won't be flinging any insults your way.

>>6078
>i still don't see how […] anarcho-nationalism was a part of the historic anarchist movement

I don't mean to say that it was. What I am aiming for is to say that matters of racism or nationalism can gain acceptance into the thought of non-propertarian anarchism without such a move necessarily molesting anarchism's traditional principles, much how LGBT matters became included into said anarchism over the past few decades.

While support for free love and women's liberation were certainly talked about in the anarchism of the late 19th century, the LGBT support that many left anarchists spout today is almost an entirely different beast. So even if a few excerpts could be found in anarchists laying precedent for a broader and more intense LGBT focus later on down the road, I don't think (but correct me if I'm wrong) that gay or lesbian, or at least transgender, liberation was part of the historic anarchist movement.

But most left anarchists today don't seem to think that such views re incongruent with anarchism's primary goals; thus I say the same thing for racist and nationalist matters. Though they may not be a long-represented lobbying point within this tradition, I don't believe it would be suicidal to incorporate those concerns, or to recognize avant-garde anarchist strains which recognize those concerns.

Now if you disagree with whether this can be done, I can understand and honor that. But what I don't think is ingenuous is to (as some have done) denounce anyone suggesting combining anarchism and racism/nationalism as a crypto-fascist. I can imagine there have been those in the past for whom that label would have been appropriate, but I am encountering more people within my online circles these days who really seem to harbor an honest synthesis of the two styles of thought.

I think Bakunin and Proudhon were both anti-semite so I don't see how it's incombatible with anarchist history. Proudhon was also a supporter of patriarchy.

>>6168

Proudhon wasn't an anti-semite as far as I know. He wasn't "patriarchal" either, although admittedly sexist. A sexist man in the middle of the 19th century, who would have thought.
Bakunin, however, was indeed an anti-semite, at a time when the jewish cultural organization was at least perceived to be prominent and the question of jewish nationalism (zionism?) was being discussed.
Boy how fun is it to abstract opinions out of context.

In any case, you may have noticed we are anarchists, not Proudhonians or Bakuninists. Therefore, even if those guys were complete fuckups it is no normative concern of ours.
They did make important contributions to anarchist theory, though.

>>6169
>Therefore, even if those guys were complete fuckups it is no normative concern of ours.
>They did make important contributions to anarchist theory, though.

While anarchists are indeed not bound to have replicate stances on the questions of nation and Jewry, by the same token a person can point to the thought of those two if he or she holds such stances as compatible with anarchism. There may have even been common wisdom informing both their anarchism and their racism (Malato definition). I wouldn't want to disregard a potential connection out of hand the way I would a connection between their anarchism and their taste in wine.

>>6169
you're goddamned delusional. this board is for circle-jerking faggots.

>>6169
http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/1847/jews.htm

I didn't say his opinion represented anarchism, but I keep seeing people saying that anarchism and racism is incompatible and starts talking about anarchist history. Well, since the first self-described anarchist was a racist that's obviously bullshit. And since NAMs say they mean community, not a nation-state when they talk about nationalism that is not either incompatible.

>>6199
I have no reason to believe that isn't a fake quote or a fake letter.
It's shady as hell.

>>6206
Well I've got something different and with better source material than the other anon:

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/erik-buelinckx-proudhon-s-influence-in-belgium-nationalism-and-culture.lt.pdf

Trying to defend the freedom he believed should have come from the “French” Revolution, he wrote that his ‘only faith, love and hope lie in Liberty and my Country’ (1871, p. 33).

This culminates in a song of praise for his native Gaul, which suffered for too long the influence of Greeks, Romans, Barbarians, Jews and Englishmen. He ends, after all it was a polemic, with ‘you can’t understand this restoring of our nationality, which, more than economic reform and the transformation of a degraded society, and appears as the highest aim of the February Revolution. You are on the side of the foreigner; this is why Liberty, which was everything and did everything for our ancestors, is so odious to you.’ (1871, p. 33–34).

pages 19-20

>>6211
>an extraneous author pulling Proudhon quotes, probably out of context
Super authoritative work comrade.

>>6214
These are his Proudhon citations comrade. Feel free to show me the proper context:

Proudhon, P.-J., 1840. What is Property? Translated by Benj. R.
Tucker, 1876. Princeton: Benj. R. Tucker.
Proudhon, P.-J. 1846. System of Economical Contradictions or,
the Philosophy of Misery. Translated by Benj. R. Tucker, 1888.
Cambridge: Wilson and Son.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1851a. Les confessions d’un révolutionnaire. 3
rd
ed. Paris: Garnier frères.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1851b. General Idea of the Revolution in the
Nineteenth Century. Translated by J. B. Robinson, 1923. London:
Freedom.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1853. Philosophie du Progrès. Bruxelles:
Lebègue.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1858. La Justice poursuivie par l’église. Bruxelles:
Office de publicité.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1860. De la Justice dans la Révolution et dans
l’Église. 12 vols. Bruxelles: Office de publicité.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1861a. La Guerre et la paix, recherches sur le
principe et la constitution du droit des gens. Paris: Michel-Lévy
frères.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1861b. Théorie de l’impôt. Paris: Hetzel.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1862a. La fédération et l’unité en Italie. Paris:
Dentu.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1862b. Les majorats littéraires. Bruxelles: Office
de publicité.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1863a. Du Principe fédératif et de la nécessité de
reconstituer le Parti de la Révolution. Paris: Dentu.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1863b. Si les traités de 1815 ont cessé d’exister.
Actes du futur congrès. Paris: Dentu.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1865. Nouvelles observations sur l’unité italienne.
Paris: Dentu.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1866. Théorie de la propriété. Paris: Lacroix.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1867a. Système des contradictions économiques
ou Philosophie de la misère. 2 vols. Paris: Lacroix.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1867b. France et Rhin. Paris: Lacroix.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1869. Mélanges. Articles de journaux 1848–1852,
volume 2. Bruxelles: Lacroix, Verboeckhoven & C°.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1875. Correspondances. 14 vols. Paris: Lacroix.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1946. Lettres au citoyen Rolland. Paris: Grasset.
Proudhon, P.-J., 1959. Ecrits sur la Religion. Paris: Rivière.
Proudhon, P.-J., 2004. Carnets: 1843–1852. Dijon: Presses du
réel.

>>6216
I could, but as opposed to quoting shit out of context, it would require serious research and time.
Are you aware you are asking me to read a dozen books and research they social context of their writing?

>>6219
The .pdf I provided was a fine piece of work. It has a comprehensive scope of the subject matter, analyzes a general theme through historical and contemporary scenarios, draws from a bevy of authors and their works, is produced by a person who would not have a clear motive for depicting Proudhon as a Gaullic racist (as opposed to the marxists.org translator depicting Proudhon as strongly against Jews).

So I have provided a source which amply meets academic minimums. You can dismiss the marxists.org link out of hand, but not this one. If you are not satisfied that it contextually quotes Proudhon, then that is your obligation to demonstrate it.

You're asking me to do more work simply because you say, "Well, it's probably out of context." Is it out of context or not? Show me if it is.

still more legitimate than anarcho (oh pardon, anarcha)-feminism and queer anarchism

>>6348
No. If you think that nationalist is better than feminism, you are a reactionary.
Get out.

>>6348
>claiming that an analysis of hierarchy and the oppression of women isn't anarchistic
>thinks that remnants of events like I don't know, the witch trials and the church had no lasting effects on society that can be seen today

troll harder.

I believe nationalism (mega tribalism) as a concept is a tool and as such it can be extremely important but the concept of Nation should never be placed higher than the individual.

>oppression of women
>by men
>not by elites
>different the than oppression of men
Fuck off liberal scum.

The nat-an tribes/"nations" aren't any more a state than a commune is. Just different words used.

>>6703
You are either awfully uninformed about "anarcho"-nats or communes.
Probably both.

>>6704
I know anarco-nationalism is nothing but nazi entryism but I think anarchist in general should stop equating nation and state and being so adamant in denying the existence and value of nations just because Nationalism has been, in modern times, related to totalitarianism.

>>6704
Would you like telling me why I'm uninformed about NAMs? They have said themselves that when they talk about nations they don't mean nation-states, but the community. It's more you that are uninformed about them.

>>6744
I like it when people just make up shit about other people's ideology instead of trying to learn from them. I actually try to learn about other's opinions instead of misrepresent and dismiss it out of hand.

Like when molyneux says that ancoms must support rape because there is no private property and "the vagina is the ultimate means of production" lol. It's just a complete failure to see stuff from other people's point of view and instead burrow themselves in their own narrow-mindedness.

I'm pretty sure most of the anarchists that criticize NAM for not being anarchist don't even know what NAMs support, but just hear the word "national" and jumps to conclusions.

The same with anarcho-capitalism. Of course it doesn't give sense if you define capitalism as a state guaranteed system or privilege, but if it is defined as voluntary exchange and private ownership it makes more sense. Private ownership in itself isn't that bad, it's the capitalist system forcing people under private ownership that makes it bad. In a freed-market there would probably be some privately owned firms, but it wouldn't be a problem since workers would have a choice between worker coops and traditional top-down firms.

"When interest, rent, and profit disappear under the influence of free money, free land, and free trade, it will make no difference whether men work for themselves, or are employed, or employ others. In any case they can get nothing but that wage for their labor which free competition determines"
-Benjamin Tucker

>>6744
As >>6724 indicated, "anarcho"-nationalism is nazi entryism.
They want to make anarchist communities because that will better allow for racism or even ethnic purges.
There is a reason anarchism is internationalist and I suggest you look it up.
"Anarcho-nationalism" is about as anarchist as "national socialism" is socialist.

>>6747
>>6747

The idea of racial and national affinity can indeed be found in the anarchist tradition, via Charles Malato's idea of the intermediary stage of racist federations preceding an international order, to Proudhon tying his French identity directly into his pursuit of a stateless and classless society.

Internationalists claiming that anarchism has to follow their program may as well claim to have a trademark and copyright to the term "anarchism".

>>6748
I think this guy is right.

But, really, anarco-nationalism is just entrysm. It's just too obvious.

But I like the ideas of Postcolonial anarchism. It allows both internationalism and self-determination of the people.

Beyond Nationalism but not without it.
http://www.anarchistpanther.net/writings/writing4.html

>>6750
Even if NAM itself is questionable, there are still people (few, but we are still out there) who honestly see our nationalism and our anarchism as inseparable.

Read through the article, but I'm not too keen on this postcolonial anarchism. It seems to advocate that some people be allowed to express their kin affinities, that others abstain from doing the same and simply support the former in their endeavors, all so that anarchy can be achieved with group #1 promising to drop their group identity once this is accomplished.

It seems to have the same high potential for abuse that the Marxist socialist state would. Let all pursue or not community with their race and nation at their leisure.

>>6040
I was gonna come up with a sarcastic rebuttal but the invisible hand of the market guided me towards the light