dc047c No.6540[Last 50 Posts]
So guys, has anyone here actually thought up any serious ideas for creating an independent anarchist community somewhere? A good place to start would be to attempt to control a territory about the size of your average American city, which sounds like a lot, but remember, it's not the population that marks the size of a city, most cities aren't that large in terms of square miles.
Several interlocked communities adding up to about 5000 people in one single Autonomous Zone is more than enough people to be a decent sample size, if you will, for an experiment that would test whether or not any of the various anarchist systems would work established throughout an entire country.
I'm a mutualist, but if there aren't enough mutualists around, I'd love to work with some anarcho-communists to test out their economic system to see whether it'd be sustainable and amenable to the principles of freedom.
faa798 No.6541
Where do you get the land from, faggot?
You can't create a new community a place to gather and stay, and most of us aren't made of money.
f6ba03 No.6542
>>6541Take the suburbs around cities, reuse the land.
faa798 No.6543
>>6542But… but… but… that's HARD!
dc047c No.6544
Well, this might be far and away from most proposals anarchists have put forward so far, I understand, but I think the only solution is to spread the meme that we are just ordinary people who feel let down by the political system and culture of our countries, and feel we have no place in our society and have no desire to continue trying to make it as respected members of the wider society. Make us seem pitiable, instead of like violent rabble, or as assholish self-important intellectuals.
You might not see the current interest in secession in America as being in any relevant to anarchism, 1 in 4 Americans is theoretically open to the idea that a certain part of the country could break off on its own, and this wouldn't be immediately catastrophic to all involved.
We need to tap into this growing resentment, and create a solid base of non-anarchist supporters of our cause, and eventually, we have to go to City Hall and demand that a certain area of land be cordoned off for us.
We'd still have to pay for it of course, and that would take years, but think of it like this. Think of the current incarnation of the CNT-FAI in Spain, the big trade union. Think of all the money and time spent maintaining that institution. If all the people involved in the CNT-FAI stopped trying to prop up these old dying institutions of a former time, we'd have a thriving community in 15 years at the most.
The reason we would have to go to the government is we would need to ensure that it is incorporated as a true Autonomous Zone, and that means no taxes, no government agents coming knocking to check if we're being all good and proper and such.
Such an Autonomous Zone being set up as an enclave within a massive and prosperous country probably has never been attempted yet in history, which is why I said we need a massive base of support.
This community project needs to dominate the attentions and the work of anarchists to the exclusion of all other possible trade union work, website managing, street protests, dumpster diving parties, vegan film festivals, and any other useless activities we frittered our time away with before. It should be on the front page of Infoshop and Anarkismo every day and be the talk of the town at Red Emma's and the Anarchist Book Fair and everywhere else every weekend.
f6ba03 No.6545
>>6543>>6544>Make us seem pitiable, instead of like violent rabble, or as assholish self-important intellectuals.That hardly seems like the right solution, you want us on our knees before we've even started. Of course we shouldn't indulge in the herd mentality (despite our insistence on democracy and equality,) nor should we become self-absorbed pretentious know-it-all assholes, doesn't this apply to most political movements? Don't do it wrong, do it right? We shouldn't demean ourselves by making ourselves pitiable, we should show ourselves to be competent, enduring, and strong in the face of a myriad of convictions opposed to our own.
>we have to go to City Hall and demand that a certain area of land be cordoned off for us.This idea smells fishy as all hell, fuck the expensive platforms and the idea of territory.
Honestly I think this idea sets us up to be special snowflakes or something, we aren't so unique from everyone else that we need our own defined territory, this just sounds like nationalism.
>dumpster diving parties, vegan film festivals, and any other useless activitiesThese are definitely useless, no disagreement there.
dc047c No.6546
>>6545Your points in the first paragraph are well taken, and I guess I mentioned the ideas of being violent rabble, and of being pretentious intellectuals, because those are the two images most of the people has of anarchists, the former being what your average vanilla 40-year old Dem or Repub thinks, and the latter being what more literate and aware people who have met a few real anarchists seem to think.
But the idea of going to City Hall is just a way to describe the fact that we're going to have to change the minds of those in power on some fundamental issues, otherwise our community would be considered tax evaders once it gets big enough if we try to set up any communally-owned syndicates, let alone any mutualist-style free market businesses.
I don't mean to say that the government fears us immensely and will trip us up on any legal snags it can because it fears any possibility of people creating an alternative, but there's bound to be some legal barrier to actually creating such a community, otherwise people would've done it by now.
"we aren't so unique from everyone else that we need our own defined territory, this just sounds like nationalism"
How can you say that when you most likely want anarchism to dominate over the territory of an entire country, or the world? I don't know what else to say that other than to say that we rightfully believe that our ideology is very special, that it's the only solution to ameliorate the problems of encroaching government and capitalism, clearly, or we would have a different ideology. Having even a tiny area where anarchists can all flock to by the thousands and millions is the least we deserve after decades of making little to no progress realizing an anarchist world.
But whatever, in particular, my idea about petitioning the government to change the tax laws was just my idea of a safeguard in the whole community-building process, the important things are stuff like what the second poster talked about regarding how to use the land, and how to go about gathering supporters and building buildings and starting syndicates, not my tax law idea.
f6ba03 No.6547
>>6544Far from going to City and proving that we need to cooperate with the rich man's republic, we should show them what we really consist of. Democracy is everywhere but in a city hall. We know what we need to do, our enemy is obvious, the solution is what is truly the most difficult to deal with. Our enemy is the cops, the politicians, the CEOs, the propaganda. The cops are at the ass end of this, and it most important to understand that what anarchism is, replaces this with something much more informal and imposing, spontaneously formed militias from the localities themselves. So think where cops are most prominent, and where they are not. Cities are where power, population, and wealth are centered. Police forces and US military forts/bases are what we need to immediately deal with if we would want genuinely consider revolution. You take the cities, use the suburbs for farms (what they originally were before service sector jobs became more prominent,) and the outlying areas would be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
f6ba03 No.6549
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>>6546> you most likely want anarchism to dominate over the territory of an entire country, or the worldWell naturally the people who disagree can't be forced into something they don't want to be apart of, but we also don't want the working class to think that they have to live under some hierarchy forced into wage slavery. So naturally we do as the five gundams did in Gundam Wing, we take down any form of arbitrary authority, namely that of the police and the military institutions. We are replacing formality and bureaucracy with something informal and less stringent. So just imagine the society we live in right now, but without cops, and militaries, how would governments enforce their laws? They wouldn't, because governments are by their very nature monopolies of force.
dc047c No.6551
The basic idea here is that it's easier to unite a large mass of the anarchists that currently exist, rather than slowly convert the millions of people that we would need, in all the major power centers in the world, to be able to have a traditional glorious revolution scenario.
If we believe that the system is headed towards some major issues soon (the increasing police state, environmental catastrophe, whatever), than we have only a few decades at most to transform the one of the least successful political movements in history into a force that can challenge the most powerful armed force of all time. We would have to turn a movement mostly populated by under-25s nerdy kids into a movement mostly of over-30s who are tough, physically strong and resilient and who have the knowledge to run an economy and manage a tightly-oiled system of consensus democracy among hundreds of people that probably only just heard about anarchism a few years before the revolution started.
Obviously I know that the government/cops/media are all against us CURRENTLY, but we have to be realistic. The government aren't Illuminati Reptilians, they can be reasoned with. If the idea of seceded communities for the various ideologies becomes the biggest news story of the day, and millions of people have voiced support for it and will fight for it, we can win. At the eleventh hour before the official recognition of the community, we might need to have a bit of "coaxing" using traditional shooty-explody tactics if they refuse to relent under serious pressure from mobs of our non-anarchist supporters.
dc047c No.6552
>>6551cont'd
But we can't attempt a traditional revolution scenario. Even if we have an army of a million, over the several years it would take to bring down the bad guys, we'd spend half of our time running up against ordinary citizens of all different kinds of ideologies who oppose us. They'd kick us out of their towns and cities and would have no interest in taking the time to learn the excessive amount of theory and economic knowledge to be able to run a syndicate or a communal assembly.
And besides, we have to start small. You can't drive out 2 million US armymen, and then try to create an entirely new economy out of the devastated landscape, with 316 million people, EVEN if everything is decentralized and the individual communities don't take orders from anyone but themselves.
You could very well say that the Feds would only give up shitty land that's uninhabited for a reason, and we would never be able to get the good land necessary to build up a good economy.
Remember though, that I'm talking about a thriving city-state, not a hippie camp or a little gated community with shacks like Josiah Warren, although it would probably look a lot like either of those in the first stages.
But I don't really see why some relatively green, low valley-type territory with streams running through it that you could find in some of the public land out West couldn't support some modern-day pioneers on it, just like it did in the old days.
f6ba03 No.6555
>>6551>we have to be realisticAbsolutely, but that doesn't mean we should compromise our principles. This is about eliminating hierarchy. Realistically we can't avoid violence.
>The government aren't Illuminati Reptilians, they can be reasoned with.The economic interests of large corporations, the government, and investors ensure that public decisions are made by groups whose INTERDEPENDENCE means that radical change in not possible. Instead, a mutually supporting network of institutions work to ensure the maintenance of a stable economic system, which is said to be beneficial to all. However, many of the benefits of this system are good for profits, not for people.
It is important that real revolutionary fervor is not dampened, and betrayed by a more conservative vision of reform. We live in a society that is suffering contradictions that are dulling its vitality and creativity. Would you have us do nothing about this?
>we can't attempt a traditional revolution scenarioNot only can we, it's the moral imperative here, we must fight with all the blood, sweat, and tears. Westerners with our scientific/utilitarian perspective where we get quick results, with minimal pain and maximum pleasure would of course feign from fighting. But you cannot tell an anarchist:
>we have to start smallThis is something international or it is not really at all. It all truly depends on how much you're willing to sacrifice, if you start with something small the end result will also be something small and petty, and not worth the effort. These are higher goals than mere survival.
Consider the 1871 Paris Commune, the mass strike, the Bloody Sunday protest in St. Petersburg in 1905, there will be acts of destruction, this needs to be acknowledged. We can't just live away from the hardship of the working class we claim to represent. That is unless you are interested in guerrilla warfare, like in imitation of Guevara, which is also admirable. What you need to understand is that what anarchists have on our side is revolutionary spontaneity, which is realistically sometimes hard to spot. Still, no leaders, no commanders, no elitism.
Also are you not concerned with the profits made by industrialists through securing foreign sites for trade? War-profiteering and the military industrial complex are a problem that can be solved by destroying the manufacturing sites, maybe looting all their weapons in the process.
298730 No.6571
I'm not convinced that we will be able to have any sort of revolutionary force without controlling the means of production and by being armed and ready to defend ourselves. Most people simply do not care about what is happening and those who do are reluctant because they don't know what they can do, we have to make the first move and to have our goals and issues clear. The movement will have to be inclusive, we are not a vanguard and people can join our struggle without associating with us.
If we are to take over territory it should be chosen strategically, we will need access to the basics for survival; we will need food, water, weapons and to completely control the production (e.g. controlling a factory that makes guns is useless if we don't have bullets). We will need to understand how the states infrastructure works and how to use it to our advantage and if necessary how to cripple it. It is imperative to remove the illusion of the states legitimacy, to have knowledge of how to take over the means of production that is both easy to access and understand, to remove as much state propaganda as possible and replace it with revolutionary culture and propaganda (which must be honest and willing to admit any mistakes), to be uncompromising in our struggle. The area in which this will take place will have to be one that is both sympathetic to our cause and an area where we are strong, our best bet may be in the Mediterranean.
Revolutionary change is serious and we will have to reflect that in our thoughts and actions, it may be a time of great celebration and of freedom but it is also one of struggle and violence, both should be represented. Finally we must be aware of the status quo, it is our enemy and can sneak in and crush us if we are not careful, learn from our previous mistakes. The state will be constantly trying to paint us as the bad guys, most likely as terrorists to remove any sense of legitimacy, solidarity would be useful here and making sure that we are not derailed like this board periodically does would be good. We will have to anticipate any attack they will use against us, the police will be the first to be called in and they will paint us as criminals so we will have to show their farce for what it really is. Please critique everything I have said.
f6ba03 No.6577
>>6571>we will need access to the basics for survival; we will need food, water, weapons and to completely control the production (e.g. controlling a factory that makes guns is useless if we don't have bullets).Yes! Food, shelter and clothing come before all else. Nevertheless we are surrounded around factories that can mass produce all kinds of important (and unimportant) things all over the world, albeit cheaply. This kind of thinking, that we should take the weapons manufacturing is definitely on the right track. Take the means to make weapons and either use it for ourselves or destroy it if the enemy (police, US military) tries to encircle the factory.
>The state will be constantly trying to paint us as the bad guys, most likely as terrorists to remove any sense of legitimacy, solidarity would be useful hereThis is definitely well under way, we will no doubt appear as a swelling fringe group, the more we swell the better.
>The movement will have to be inclusive, we are not a vanguard and people can join our struggle without associating with us.Fuck yes, no leaders, spontaneity, and no enforcing 'no platform.' We are not delegating authority in so much as we're alleviating it.
We've got the Zapatistas in Mexico, and the Spanish and the Greek anarchists are also among the most well established. There's both urban and rural guerrilla warfare to consider, we are obviously not going to involve ourselves in any head on fight, to minimize deaths. We use means of communication that aren't easily monitored, utilize demolitions with caution, and ammo, food and general provisions will be explicitly looted when and where it seems we cause the least trouble with the most gain, ie giant chain stores/factories as opposed to local shops. The idea is to be both practical and never to lose momentum. Once the revolution starts we immediately go from replacing authority to utilizing the suburbs for food via farming, taking down the McMansions while making sure we cause the least amount of 'chaos and violence' so as to make the transition as peaceful as possible. This means architects, tailors, and cooks are extra fucking important. We need to build something more egalitarian in place of the suburbs. Also space programs would signal the end of the revolution as we try to mark the beginning of a new renaissance for both the sciences and the arts. Blah, blah, blah. Just throwing ideas out there.
995910 No.6578
>>6540Are you suggesting you can go and have your isolated anarchist commune to live by yourself in anarchy?
Lifestyle anarchism is not true anarchism.
41bb92 No.6947
>>6541>money>land>land costs moneyI don't like the way you think boy.
b6e775 No.6948
We could get together a buy a run down tower block or housing project with a few tower blocks in somewhere like eastern europe or south america. As long as it was structurally sound we could clean it up, turn as many as we needed into comfortable lodging and convert all the rest into uv growrooms for all the vegetable we need to eat. We'd power it with solar panels and windfarms. I'm not a scientist so I dunno how much energy we would need. Also we'd need a decent amount of cash to start.
After it was established we could invite people to stay and in time hopefully other communities would spring up.
Alternatively we could start a city of tents based around simple diy soloutions to problems of heating et al. and forage for food and shit. Get gordon hillman to help us out.
b755a9 No.6965
>>6578Stop it with your no true scotsman.
Every single effort, no matter how small is beneficial.
f9f086 No.6968
>>6965Finally, someone who understands what that means!
274359 No.7062
>>6578>Lifestyle anarchism is not true anarchismThen what is anarchism? Throwing a hissy fit and throwing traffic cones at cops to try and make yourself heard?
Anarchism is a lifestyle but its a lifestyle that has the potential to free humanity on-mass if widespread.
Actually living the lifestyle of a free unruled man is a lot more real and difference making that riots, arguments and so called revolutions.
If we want to beat the system we need to disconnect from it and show others why they should do the same, the dumbasses will turn their back on this lifestyle for a shitty job and an addiction to fast food but the free minded will follow us the promise-land of nature.
dc047c No.7324
>>6948The tower blocking thing sounds pretty legit to start off, but that's more of a bare minimum for us being able to have a place to get to know one another, live with each other and maybe test out some direct democracy, but we want something large enough to have all the amenities of modern life in. And there's no reason to further complicate the difficulties of a communal lifestyle by forcing everyone into a single building. Some people living in communal buildings will obviously be interesting, but we should set it up so everyone can have their own house if they want.
We need to give our people the feeling of thriving in a spaced-out community with plenty of room for buildings to be built spontaneously by the people who move here without too much worry about taking up precious area used for the basics like food and energy production.
We need to be able to, eventually, produce a wide variety of different non-necessity foods and drinks, clothing, books, music, theater/media, children's items, cars, and figure out how to create our own access to the Internet, or some other alternative Internet-like network, which can be used for more streamlined direct-democratic decision making. Anything the capitalist society has created to entice people to remain fat and happy and satisfied inside the Matrix, we need to be able to provide.
We probably won't need to put much emphasis on defense if it's already been deigned as a legitimate Autonomous Zone by some authority, but having a complex array of security cameras might be useful to track any unwanted visitors, and stop them and question them. What we'd probably have to be most concerned about is people showing up to try and join the community and them actually being infiltrators, but I think few people'd actually go to that much trouble.
dc047c No.7327
I mentioned the 5000 people figure earlier, and that figure came from me adding up the population of several communities in one area, of anywhere from 500 to 3000 people each.
Getting good figures for the amount of land we'd need is probably more important, so, as an example, the city limits of my town are at about 12 square miles, and the vast majority of small towns in the country seem to be no larger than 5 or 6 square miles. The size of the more spaced-out towns would probably be enough for a single, smaller community.
By comparison, since we're aiming for a city-state, Chicago is around 230-some square miles of land and water, but it may not be a good model to draw from since we want to avoid building up instead of out.
So, to summarize it, we would want around 12 square miles at the least and 230 square miles at the most. This might seem like an enormous amount of land, and it obviously would take a lot of time and include all the legal finagling I've described above, but remember that even the largest figure I've given for land is still just a dot on the map, and so we can't possibly be accused of wanting to break up the sacred territorial integrity of the country we set up shop in.
14e001 No.7351
Here's an idea: instead of trying to get a huge chunk of land to use as a sandbox (which will not happen; I invite you to prove me wrong), build your anarchist system over top of an existing area.
For example, if you need commons, pool your money together, buy shit and share it amongst yourselves. If you need a currency, use some relatively stable crypto.
Yes, you're still bound by whatever laws apply to the area you set this up in, but working together you should be able to find creative ways to skirt around the law, as long as you do it quietly.
What about using residential Detroit as a base? Its pretty much abandoned.
b6e775 No.7352
>>7324>>7324I don't like democracy, even the direct kind, but thats not really relevant this discussion.
But I also disagree with the idea that we need more than agriculture, water and shelter. Especially what you say about needing everything capitalist society has created. I see it the job of the individual to come up with the things they want from the raw ingredients.
dc047c No.7355
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>>7351Well, I think you're specific strategy's already been tossed around for a while, even though the independent community idea's only been gaining steam since 2007 or 2006 at the earliest.
No one can think of any interesting ideas or novel strategies to get where we deserve to be, as an anarchist movement. Everyone's too afraid to think of any strategies that diverge too much from the ideas that have been bandied about since the rise of the modern anarchist movement after the 60s. Everyone's too afraid of being called a narcissist for proposing a big, sweeping vision. Even the Detroit idea you proposed originally comes from "anarcho"-capitalists. Though, despite all I've just said, I actually think it's a fascinating idea and if we were to have an unofficially seceded area, we should probably try it in Detroit.
Even if we take over several neighbourhoods, unless someone in here has serious knowledge of the tax laws and can tell us how we'll be able to not pay any taxes, it'll just get tougher and tougher as we set up more syndicates and provide each other with better food and clothes and such.
If we just aim for the bare minimum, all we have is a particularly large punk squatter house, and those haven't been particularly effective at creating a sense of community and prosperity that actually keeps people around, let alone create resources to be able to raise and educate kids,
>>7352Well, I'm sure you know what I meant. If we're taking the vision of most anarchists over the past few decades as a starting point for what an *ideal" anarchist world would be, it would be a place with nice cars and high-speed trains and nice restaurants, with the prominent syndicates of the major cities working in skyscrapers and factories, you get the picture. There would be communally-governed fancy recording studios offering albums in exchange for labor notes or some other thing, to a national audience, and nationwide sports leagues and everything that our future supporters in the major capitalist countries would probably still like to have.
We all have heard the strategy of having an unofficial gathering place of anarchists with some farms/permaculture before, why hasn't it caught on in the 6 or 7 years it's been on the Internet? Surely it can't be only nerds on the Internet who favour this strategy, some non-dysfunctional adult anarchists who run the major anarchist unions/publishing houses must've gotten wind of it by now, so why haven't they adopted it and tried to implement it?
Because it's not inspiring enough, it's not grand and glorious enough. When you picture yourself meeting up with other anarchists and trying to live in some apartment together, you don't get fired up and inspired, overjoyed at the possibility of finally, at last living out a long, full life full of leisure and intellectual stimulation, never having to live under a boss again. You get filled with dread and and laugh while you imagine all the silly spats that would inevitably arise.
What I'm talking about is a small-scale version of that vision we all had in our head when we became anarchists, before we inevitably became disillusioned with the progress of the anarchist movement. You know, red-and-black flags flying from every house and street corner, statues of Bakunin in the city square, factories filled with smiling workers like you see in the old Russian propaganda posters.
dc047c No.7358
Obviously, anyone who personally values the ideas of self-sufficiency and DIY and living off the land can go do that, and there are probably millions of those people scattered around the major capitalist countries (and I count myself among them, personally).
And, lastly, about the crypto-currency part, I just think that even though I'm personally interested in Internet currencies it's just a reflection of the fundamentally elitist character of most anarchists that this is considered the only viable method of organizing an economy. Once again, what are our eventual supporters going to think? How are 80-year old grandmas in the Midwest and Kenyan peasants going to be expected to use this currency?
de3b54 No.7361
You won't be able to have your Anarchist autonomous zone without declaring independence from the state, they will use any means that they can to remove you, even if it's illegal they will do it. We are fighting global capitalism and states, thinking small-scale is silly unless it's going to build up to something bigger. We will never get independence by asking nicely, we will have to completely liberate and defend a huge area which will require loads of people who are both willing and able to use violence.
Every time you try to think of a way around the state think of it as Nazi Germany, they are not going to just let you go, they are incredibly fucked up, they will not give in, they have us by the balls and people are brainwashed from a young age into acceptance of authority and all the screwed up shit that comes with this society that they literally don't even take the time to think about their own slavery. The state surveillance would be the envy of the Gestapo if they were still alive (the NSA shit is common knowledge and nobody gives a shit), they kill unimaginable amounts of people not only with their wars (nothing more than organized mass murder) but also with their systems of oppression that even invade and influence people's minds, cause mass suicide, mental health issues, poverty and even kill the disabled slowly and painfully because they are of no value to their method of organization that guarantees their power. I could go on forever.
They are worse than the Nazis and the Nazis themselves didn't have shit on their competitors like Britain who even had their own concentration camps. For fuck sake look at who you are fighting against and react accordingly.
14e001 No.7372
>>7355>>7358>>7361I want you guys to succeed. I want it really badly. I just don't think you're being realistic, and here is why:
We are not going to go backwards in terms of technology. When I say technology, I don't mean just machines or computers. I mean the sum of all techniques for social organization, productivity, entertainment, and all other realms of human activity. When you talk about subsistence farming, 'labor notes', communities of limited size, &c., you alienate all the people who have come to rely on all the benefits of living in a technologically advanced society.
Now, not everyone feels this way, and there is the possibility that you could use the internet to gather all the primitivists and/or other idealists together and actually make something cool. I think that would be fucking awesome, it just doesn't seem very feasible or likely to me, and I think alienating the overwhelming majority of people to your cause might not be the best way to start a project like this.
What does seem feasible to me is taking small, deliberate steps towards your goal. Dismantle your philosophy into its components and work to implement systems which fulfill those components, within an existing country.
The only way to do this effectively that I can see is to get comfortable with technology and use it as a means to your ends (ends which will need to be explicitly stated before this project can proceed). If you do this, you will gain sympathy with everyone who is eagerly anticipating a more advanced society.
Honestly, I sometimes wish that we could return to an agrarian society, but you just can't go backwards. If you want support, you have to lead the way into the future. That's how you should be thinking about this, if you want to start something that will become really big.
As a side, I would consider permaculture to be a more advanced form of agriculture, so by no means do I discourage its application in a more advanced society. Quite the opposite.
I will do anything I can to help this effort, but only if that action is meaningful.
b6e775 No.7374
>>7355I agree with you that the idea of living in some disused apartments in a 2nd world country with a bunch of strangers ain't too inspiring. I do however think there are other, more exciting, ways to go about it that don't involve resteraunts or labour tokens.
I like the idea of having everything completely automated by robots, with solar powered hovercrafts ferrying people around the world for free and drones which carry food from huge indoor farms to your house but to me this stuff all seems unachievable without access to huge numbers of resources.
b6e775 No.7447
There are jewish commuties which have their own laws, courts and even police. They are sometimes just neighbourhoods in the middle of major cities (new york or london for example). They exist essentially like seperate micro-nations inside other nations where all the businesses are run by jews and any community issues are solved within the community. This could potentially be the way to go for this. Rather than trying to start a community in some remote location in may be easier to just buy houses in a run down neighbourhood, aiming to get the whole street filled with anarchists and then simply act as if we weren't subject to the laws of the country we live in. As long as we didn't cause problems with those outside of our own community we shouldn't run into problems.
333a2b No.7462
>literally no mention of freestateproject
freestateproject.org
I know it's not anarchy, but it's the best thing we can do apart from going to Rojava. Alternatively you can start your own Free State Project in your own state.
They try to keep "adjectives" out of their libertarian society. Yes, they are calling for a small state and not no state..but it's the closest you can get as of now..
freestateproject.org
82680b No.7477
>>7462except if you organize and start shooting people
reformist
dc047c No.7521
>>7372Yeah, I'm the OP that's been posting most of the pretty pictures, I don't want an agrarian society. That's what all the talk about high-speed trains and nice restaurants was.
I do think, unfortunately that we'd have to have a subsistence-type situation in the early stages. And obviously, we'll need farmers at all stages of society, we can't just assume we'd rely on some technology like permaculture that has barely been tried at this large of a scale before.
Once we spend all the money on the land and some beginning houses and farms, we'll have to slowly start gathering it up again from outside supporters (or from pooling our savings, if we all get jobs somewhere in the area near the community). And once we have medical care set up, and electrical power, and some beginning factories for making houses and furniture and such, and all our syndicates are working smoothly, then we can abandon the State money and live communally, whether with my mutualist market system, labour-notes like the anarcho-collectivists or Parecon people want, or a full-blown gift economy like the anarcho-commies aim for.
The mention of "labour notes" at one point was just a way to illustrate the fact that I want a complex economy with all the luxuries the capitalist system has produced, without all the alienation and crushing inequality.
dc047c No.7524
>>7447This strategy's been put forth at least 2 other times in this thread alone. It just keeps being asserted with no real rejoinders to my criticism of it. It will HAVE to be an official secession. If not a formal, legally recognized one with a peace settlement and everything, than at least a situation where we've driven off the state's army to the extent that they refuse to enter our territory, and all the bordering towns have pledged their support for us against the State. Taxes are the big issue here, clearly. If we still have to pay taxes, it'll just get harder and harder to buy up more and more land and start more syndicates. Also, we can't be in the middle of a major populated area, or even near one, to the point where there would be police intervening if any one of the community's members got drunk and belligerent, fights broke out, people started stealing things. Unless we separate ourselves totally and make it clear that no one's allowed to call the police, someone will find an excuse to call them. As I said before, I'm loath to try such a reformist measure, but if we make it a peaceful secession, there's less chance of us pampered Western kids breaking and scattering in the face of a chaotic violent situation.
cbf3ca No.7531
They literally built a million communes in the 60s and 70s. You just buy some land build some housing and create a nonprofit corporation and issue shares to members. Google twin oaks and acorn. There's a whole federation of them. You can organize it any way you like
b6e775 No.7543
>>7524if not jews then amish, you don't need to pay taxes if nobody has jobs or businesses.
721a78 No.7551
honestly the southwest US would be a great place to start an anarchist community West Texas especially. There's nothing out there normal people care about but there are enough resources to sustain those 5000 people.
dc047c No.7646
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>>7531Well, don't you have to keep up with making sure the community keeps its tax-exempt status? Aren't there government inspectors that would be coming periodically to check up on things? There's also the issue of police intervention in disputes that I brought up.
Also, the way alot of these seem to be set up (at least the Twin Oaks project), they don't seem to be able to provide much in the way of more than the basic necessities for their residents, that seems to be the reason for the periodic allowances for their members they give their members. I wish I knew more about the nature of the pool of money that they accumulate from members. If they give away food, lodging, and education for free, and there's no need for outside employment, why are they collecting the money, and where are the members even earning the money from? Are the hoarding all of their vacation stipends and then paying them back into the communal pool?
I mean, they look like good people in these communes, and maybe some of them would be willing to put funds and manpower behind my project. But they don't seem explicitly anarchist, and that would be alright, except they don't really seem to see the need for abandoning money entirely, so it's not really comparable to what anarchists want to do. The system of these communes seems to necessitate that money still be retained, because they haven't separated themselves totally from the broader society.
dc047c No.7647
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Twin Oaks also seems to have some kind of spiritual orientation, or some other type of philosophical belief-system that holds up the idea of communal living and a strong community spirit, love for your neighbour, all of these things, above actually creating a "good life" for their members. Their premises are dirty, and like I've been mentioning before, there have been complaints by visitors that it's not really geared towards kids or old people.
What we need to create is a society that's large, populated, and varied enough, such that outside observers can't possibly believe that it's not big enough to serve as a real model for the rest of the surrounding society.
Twin Oaks says they haven't been able to accumulate the resources necessary, even over 30 years, to able to accommodate more than 100 people, such that members have to leave before any new members are allowed to be admitted. That's a serious problem.
We need a city-state that's large enough, and that's been around long enough, that any of the possible objections and flaws in anarchism that people have pointed out have been shown to be groundless through real-life experimentation.
So, if people think criminal behaviour like murder and theft can't be successfully curtailed by an anarchist system, we would need to have a fairly huge area with a wide variety of environments and different personalities involved, far bigger than your average commune. Theoretically, once such criminal behavior problems have been dealt with (if they even arise at all), people will be fairly convinced of the workability of anarchism.
dc047c No.7706
I want to stress, again, that once this gets off the ground, I personally won't be taking much of a leadership role in this. This whole thread is basically all the basic building blocks that I think are absolutely essential to proper strategy for an anarchist break-away movement. Any of the secondary and tertiary steps relating to gathering the requisite number of people, getting the funds and materials, etc., can very well be taken up by other people.
f6ba03 No.7708
>>7706Nothing about your ideas are even remotely anarchist buddy.
dc047c No.7711
>>7708What's not anarchist about it? I want to create an independent territory, where decisions are made by consensus democracy/majority vote/shouting matches/whatever other decision-making systems anarchists have thought up, and the economy is made up three separate territories of communist, collectivist, and mutualist syndicates. My last post included statements about "the workability of anarchism" for Christ's sake. I became an anarchist 7 years ago due to the Anarchist FAQ and haven't looked back since, and I've had as many conversations on how to achieve anarchism since that time as could fill several books.
The only part of my proposal that could make one think that it's not an anarchist system is that the means of getting there differs from the majority of anarchist strategizing over the last 200 years. Some people have brought up concerns about the idea of direct democracy, but just substitute whatever decision-making process you envision for your ideal anarchist society.
Mainstream politicos, as well as Marxists, right-libertarians, all these other groups don't go so far as to condemn someone as not really believing in their ideology if they have a different view on the steps to get there.
What matters to a right-libertarian Cato Institute wonk is whether you actually eventually want to build a small-government capitalist republic, not whether you want to get it by peaceful protest, secession, violent action, etc.
Mainstream liberals and conservatives aren't hamstrung by ONLY allowing the possibility of change through elections, they incorporate the idea of various protest tactics and non-electoral pressure groups into their ideology. We're the only ideological camp that has to deal with this suffocating "No true Scotsman" issue so much.
If we attempt a traditional glorious revolution scenario, there will still have to be boring old "reformist" meetings and peace settlements with the hated, evil State that you think can never be reasoned with or convinced of anything. There will have to be peace settlements with groups of ordinary folks who don't agree with our system for some reason and will need to go live somewhere else. If a revolution succeeds in the USA, there will need to be peace settlements delineating no further statist expansion is to be done into anarchist lands by the governments of Canada and Mexico, or whatever other countries an anarchist territory borders.
Better to make it peaceful and avoid all of that, although, as I said before, I'm not entirely averse to resorting to other tactics, but they should be used to defend the autonomous territory we have created. If anything reeks of non-anarchist sentiment, it's the idea someone had in the eighth post of this thread of simply sweeping the organs of power of the state away with violence and hoping the mass of the people are smart enough to follow us along into anarchism.
A successful anarchist revolution will just lead to a small band of freethinkers isolated from everyone else only being able to take control of a small territory, while the statist world just hums along peacefully beside it, the freethinkers having failed to convert very many other people to their ideology.
The Soviets believed that any non-Marxist movements were secret fronts for the international capitalist conspiracy to crush the revolution, and the Francoists were literal fascists, obviously, that believed that the entire Spanish folk-community must be united under the absolute rule of Faith and Flag.
Most Western governments at least pay enough lip service to the ideas of freedom that they could conceivably grant a tiny territory to groups that want it. That's what I'm proposing could be achieved, with much less work, in 15 years or so.
f6ba03 No.7713
>>7711All you are arguing is that anarchism is bound to failure, and in the process compromising the very values we uphold. Nothing in this whole thread that you've explained is anarchist. It's nationalism and it's reformist. It's a shit thread on the whole.
dc047c No.7719
>>7713Strategies are just strategies, nothing more. Logical calculations for what has the greatest possibility getting us towards an anarchist society. There is no use in a moral framework if it doesn't actually get you to the world you desire. Anarchism is simply a proposal for decision making in society and economic life. There is obviously something in the way of an ethical standard of how to treat others involved with anarchism, in that you should avoid being racist and sexist, avoid presuming that you know more than others, and generally give other people you're associating with as much of a say as possible in decisions both political and non-political. This is all proper in a society that respects principles of horizontal organization, and the idea that a single person doesn't generally have the knowledge necessary to completely dominate the running of an organization, even a non-political one.
All of this is well and good. But to say that there needs to be ethical precepts involved in the process of getting to an anarchist society is ridiculous. You have a society that you want to actualize, you've got to analyze all the possible strategies solely on their MERITS, and not on any sort of tenuous ethical connection between the ideals of anarchism and the strategies.
The only strategy that would practically set anarchism back if it was implemented, regardless of whether or not it actually succeeded in establishing a community, would be a situation where the anarchist organizations that established the community were themselves hierarchical. The culture of hierarchy would probably carry over into the actual established community in that situation.
But that's not what I'm proposing, the pioneers of my Autonomous Zone would follow the same loose consensus-democracy principles that would be actually used in the community once it's set up.
>nationalismHow? What nation am I proclaiming here that needs to be defended? The Basques? Germans? Black people? Whites? My community would welcome all races, obviously, you can't possibly be making this comparison honestly.
f6ba03 No.7721
>>7719At this point you are just using this thread as your pedestal, you aren't saying anything of substance, you are regurgitating the same ideas and it's pretty much shitposting. The world is our community, and there are no such thing as races dude, it's 2015, c'mon.
Stop shitposting and jerking yourself off. Everything you've advocated sounds more like your own tribe than an anarchist international revolution.
be128f No.7748
>>7721There's no way there's going to be a revolution all over the world at once that leads to anarchism without different areas of the world having some pre-existing basis for anarchism to begin with.
If you can promote the economic side of anarchism as viable in a large independent community that acts as an example of a working socialistic system, and you'll get copycats.
THEN if the state tries to crack down it'll become obvious they aren't doing it because it's unworkable but because they are scared, and a lot of people would be alienated from the state, driving more support for anarchism.
At that point, you are far more likely to have a worldwide revolution and to achieve actual anarchism.
Just sitting around waiting for everyone to spontaneously revolt at the same time everywhere otherwise it's not REAL ANARCHISM™ is perfect for feeling radical and rebellious while not actually doing anything, but it's not exactly a realistic way of achieving an anarchist world.
Obviously, anarchism is international, but international does not mean that everywhere has to convert to anarchist systems at the exact same time. Carving out large territories which actually function can be a precursor to a future revolution.
I don't see any reason to oppose such efforts.
f6ba03 No.7752
>>7748Maybe you need to do some research on the differences between Marxist thought and Anarchist thought. What you are saying is more in line with a Marxist point of view that an international revolution in not practical therefore we need to act in half-measures, this is what leads to idea such as the dictatorship of the proletariat and the centralization of banking, communication and resources, a dictatorship of need. Consider what Rosa Luxemburg called 'revolutionary spontaneity.' Your ideas of a transitional phase will inevitably lead to a compromise of values and create a new class system in place of the old one. You are also shirking the inevitable role that violence will play. It's nationalistic, it's emphasizing borders, it's not anarchism because it's not stateless, you are talking about creating a state.
62f158 No.8483
Why no co-opt some forts in the sea? Some guy did it in the 60's and he's been living there ever since. If a group of people pooled a small amount of money together they could easily get a boat to some (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunsell_Forts for example) and build some indoor hydro/aeroponic tower farms and refurb them to be livable (assuming they aren't it to much disrepair).
This could literally done tomorrow, with minimal money. All that is required is the education of necessasry skills and organization of people.
350527 No.8485
A slab city type of deal would be the most realistic, actually buying land would be a liability since a shantytown on it would be a lawsuit factory
dc047c No.8566
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>>8485
There's the rub, the possibility of interference by the State. Look at the situation of the actual Slab City, the one in California http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/us/talk-of-land-sale-divides-southern-californias-slab-city-dwellers.html
Mind you, it didn't end up actually getting sold. But it almost perfectly expresses what I'm trying to get across. We need to have an officially declared secession, by moving into the edge of some town, building up several villages over several years in an area where no one lives, and then setting up checkpoints.
There might be a chance that we could convince enough of the surrounding non-anarchists to support our declaration of secession, such that we could rely on them to shield us from the State, if they crack down.
But we live in the 21st century, and mostly in highly-developed countries. As much as the current States in the world want to maintain their own power, they would have no real reason not to set a precedent for such an obviously progressive and workable idea as peaceful secession.
And plus, I think we can all agree that if we tried to just start something up without alerting the State beforehand in some way, we would hit a snag in the road somehow. Whether it's being painted as criminals and violent thugs, or just some kind of legal issues regarding the ownership of the land that we might not be able to resolve.
It's an absolute lie that the only way to separate yourself from the state is to completely ignore it. We need to game it for our own purposes. Not in terms of running for office, because the elections are obviously rigged.
I'm only talking simple meetings with the government's representatives here. Demanding a slice of land about the size of your average national park, eventually enough for 10,000 to live comfortably. We need to reassure them that we're not just going to take over any land that we want, that we'll only initially settle in an area that won't disturb the greater society. We demand a certain number of square miles, and a particular climate suitable for civilization, and they can pick the particular spot, but not if it's not suitable for holding 10,000 people.
Obviously, if they refuse our incredibly reasonable demands, than business can continue in the fashion that most people have suggested already. i.e., we would just build a village and hope we don't run into any legal problems. And if it comes to it, we fight to defend what we've built.
Just writing about these kinds of agreements with our statist enemies makes my stomach turn. But this involves much less cooperation with the state than trying to get tax-exempt incorporation, which is what all intentional communities seem to resolve themselves to eventually. Almost every intentional community in existence today is basically officially a ward of the state, and short of actually seceding, a commune under the current system needs tax-exempt status to be able to grow to a good size and provide a wide variety of goods and services for its members.
16c6cf No.8569
>>8566
ITT: why anarchism will NEVER work.
e668fe No.8570
>>8569
>ITT: why stateless societies and states can never co-exist.
Fixed that for you.
dd6e68 No.8616
So, genuinely curious here. Apart from taking up arms, what would stop some sort of governing force from stocking up on armored vehicles and literally trampling all over the whole thing?
At least here in the US, shit would get knocked down pretty quickly as I doubt any sort of governing body at state or federal level would let this go.
350527 No.8617
>>8616
being benign enough for it not to matter to them, slab city has been around for years and there are other hobo camps and right-libertarian havens scattered all over the US
f58964 No.8648
>>7351
>>7355
First time lurker here and yes, I'm really glad to hear that some other anarchists think detroit would be a good launching ground for this movement.
I've been doing a lot of research about detroit recently as I am tech student with an interest in startups, and it has plenty of very cheap, essentially abandoned land with very little state interference (due to bankruptcy and all that).
Another very big point I think you are all missing is the symbolism it would represent. Remember, Detroit is considered THE big failure of capitalism and industry. It was a city built on the middle class dream, and when big corporations realized they could exploit labor overseas much easier, the city fell into disrepair and ruin.
A successful anarchist community in the ruins of an industrialist city would garner major headlines. There are plenty of abandoned warehouses as well, so if any of you have skillsets you could do your trade fairly cheaply.
Would we have to pay taxes? Unfortunately, at the beginning, yes. But realize that the city government has very little power at this point. If we were able to make it a big enough movement, we could make up a large enough portion of the voter base to vote the city in a certain direction.
There are many urban farming projects in Detroit (in fact its become a running joke), so we could buy our food directly from local farms. This will garner local support and give us some fresh grown produce so we aren't fat fucks. As far as generating wealth, we would certainly have to sell things but there are services like bandcamp, desura, etc that allow the artist to have a lot of freedom, or you could always just have a shop online or something.
With my skillset I couldn't really make many physical products but I could create an offline local network to exchange files, vote anonymously, and communicate our opinions anonymously (which I think is very important).
Let me know what you think, I was just wondering to a friend a couple days ago why no anarchist communes had started up in detroit.
f58964 No.8649
>>8648
Also I'd like to add that many political commentators at this point are stating that Baltimore is another great example of capitalism failing. Loss of jobs to corporate exploitation of cheap labor overseas > Discontent > More Police > Conflict > Riots. Same crap over and over again. If we managed to form a free and inclusive society on the ruins of a capitalist dystopia it would be incredibly symbolic.
dc047c No.8664
>>8648
A discussion group of maybe 5 or so people, in a real-time chat would be good. I forgot about this thread for a couple of weeks and didn't even respond, that kind of situation would be less-likely to happen I think if we had a chatroom.
I don't really have very many ideas beyond the basic steps of how much land, and how much population, so we'll probably have to get right to the business of finding new people with the skillsets to move us forward, once we start the chat.
How does Chatzy.com sound to start off? Afterwards a techie guy can move us to a more secure site if that's what people want.
abdfb2 No.8667
b30b24 No.8681
>>8648
This seems like one of the more realistic answers to the question of how to live in an anarchist society today. I'd be interested in continuing the discussion here.
dc047c No.8686
>>8681
Probably not the most efficient place to have a conversation about this, but any start is good.
>>8648
Do you or your friend have a good network of anarchist friends that either have relevant skillsets, or could put us in contact with people that do? Since neither of us really have the skills
I'd say at least the first 30 people that get involved with this should be the ones with skills, unless you prove yourself to be exceptionally strong as a theorizer and planner, and very well versed in the anarchist theory that would be needed to create a town of anarchist collectives.
After that, we can start bringing in a greater percentage of unskilled people.
8f2b61 No.8687
>>8686
I think the idea that only skilled people should be involved at first isn't a necessary proviso (not to mention being pretty elitist). For instance say we wanted to do some urban farming 1 person who knows what to do is gonna get a lot from the 10 people who don't but are willing to graft. But more importantly any progressive society has to be inclusive and surely has to put the happiness of those who want to be included before the practical.
dc047c No.8688
>>8687
Yeah, I suppose it'll work either way. Generally, alot of these Internet-based community projects seem to take the position of being wary of unskilled people, but its heartening to see that actual intentional communities out there don't seem to be tripped up by having unskilled people around.
However, even though we'll take inspiration from intentional communities and independent farmers, we have to get it out of our heads that this will be just another intentional community.
We need to eventually stop buying food from people with the state's money, and that means building stores that can distribute food in an anarchist fashion to people who don't want to farm in our community. Fundamentally, unlike alot of right-wing people, and social democrat Green types, over-40 organic food moms, and the like, most anarchists are adverse to farming. Which is why we need actual syndicates to distribute food. Same for producing electricity, making cars, etc.
Besides, the main reason people go through the trouble in our modern society to farm on their own is if they have some kind of ideology, like anti-capitalism or environmentalism, regarding the food system that doesn't match up with the way their state is doing things. They do it if they don't have a community of their own where their ideology can be put into practice.
Put simply, we need to eventually get to the point where the majority of us don't have to farm, just like it would be in a larger-scale anarchist territory. So if someone's kid 15 years into our community project wants boxed mac'n'cheese from his neighborhood collective, we should be able to provide that.
bd8b4c No.8689
liberland seems as good as it gets today maybe or free state project for anarchos?
8f2b61 No.8691
>>8688
I don't think thee will be boxed mac'n'cheese in the utopia. I don't even think people will want it.
That being said all aspects of production are becoming increasingly automated. Currently business aren't embracing the change at the speed the change happens (for instance I heard that McDonalds could now run with a supervisor and no one else, the food would all be cooked and sold by machines). If we were to embrace the newest forms of automation in farming then essentially people would just have to walk around the farms to make sure nothing has been broken. You wouldn't need farmers as such, everyone could just take a stroll round the farms for a hour a day or so.
dc047c No.8693
>>8689
Well, yeah I (the OP) am really leaning towards the Free State Project rather than Detroit, but the idea is that we would want to help communities in both places get off the ground simultaneously. Unless someone can really give a good argument for why we would fail at getting enough people for two communities. and would have to focus on one at a time.
So regardless of whether you want it to be in New Hampshire, Detroit, Eastern Europe, or anywhere else, tell us your plans for how you'll start growing your network of skilled people!
e894a2 No.8769
Sorry everyone, I had finals and didn't check this board for a few weeks.
>>8664
Sounds good, I agree that it is a lot easier to generate real action if we are collaborating in real time.
>>8681
That's why I proposed the idea. I see lots of theories on how to generate action but many of them seem extremely idealistic. Considering houses are being sold there for $3000 each its not out of the realm of possibility for us to secure a neighborhood.
>>8686
I'm good with technology and am a good theorizer, though I have no real anarchist friends in rl. Plenty of libertarians, but no anarchists.
>>8688
I personally don't believe in complete abolition of currency, though I do believe in decentralized currency. Many new cryptocurrencies such as darkcoin that are completely open source and very private would be useful for adoption as our local currency. Adopting a cryptocurrency would also mean that it would be less drastic for newcomers to integrate into the community, as plenty of people are familiar with older currencies such as bitcoin as is.
Energy independence is simple as well, albeit more expensive. If we based our energy supply on solar power and other natural resources we would not need to deal with commercial energy companies. That would be a great first step to distancing us from the state, and would enthuse environmentalists as well.
I don't think the majority of us would have to farm, we could simply have a small farm of our own and buy produce direct from local growers to supplement our food supply. Directly supporting growers, even not in our collective, seems moral to me and would grow our external support base.
>>8691
Increased automation could definitely help us. If 3D printing increases, for example, we could simply download open source models online and print them if we couldn't construct them on our own.
>>8693
I agree that multiple projects is a good idea. I just looked up the free state project and I'm a little bit concerned with its marketing materials, as it seems to be much more appealing to libertarians than anarchists, with all the "0% tax" stuff. I don't want a community that will simply be used as a tax haven for the ultra rich.
dc047c No.8783
>>8769
OP here, yeah, I'm hoping we would be able to dissuade the Free Staters from bringing plutocrats into their ranks. Most of the ayncrappies I've encountered that have moved to NH seem like they wouldn't support the idea of getting the ultra-rich involved, and fortunately I think that idea hasn't gained much traction.
Here's how the NH strategy would work: we pitch our idea of creating Ansoc communities in New Hampshire to the ayncrapps of the FSP, and then work to unite the FSP around the idea of NH secession, with the support of our fellow Ansocs. Then, when NH secedes, our Ansoc communities can secede from them.
Alternatively, we could do the strategy I described near the beginning of this thread. Negotiating with the government to get a certain allotment of land that would be independent from the State, or else just building our community with its factories and houses and fighting off any State agents that try and interfere. We would have the help of the FSPers in this regard.
NH really seems to be better in most respects, no matter if we just focus on ourselves, or try and help the NH secession movement. The only real upsides to Detroit I can see is the fact that we would have already-built houses and roads, and buildings we would use for syndicates, instead of having to build our own on a plot of rural farmland somewhere.
I have the ability to drive to Northern NH (lotta land for sale up there), and I might be going to Porcfest this year too. It would be good if we had a face-to-face meeting with some prominent anarchist FSPers once we talk to them online.
dc047c No.8784
>>8783
Also, the Chatzy,com chatroom is up. How often do you guys think we should have a chat? You can send me your emails anytime and then once we decide when to chat, you'll get an email invitation to the chatroom at that time.
dc047c No.8835
If anyone's confused about how my Chatzy chatroom works, or has a better idea for real-time communication, tell me. As you can see I've also made myself a trip. All the other people on this thread should also make trips so we can tell each other apart.
b30b24 No.8947
wew lads, I did not expect to see anything actually come out of this thread. People love to talk about "what if we just like made our own commune bruh", but it seems like nothing ever comes of them. Also this board gets such a small amount of traffic that I forget to come here.
I'm just giving the thread bump while I read through it. From what I've read initially: I fucking love the idea of founding a network of syndicates within the abandoned buildings of Detroit, but that's because I'm an urbexfag and a /cyber/punk, so the idea of being able to be in the city and living in abandoned buildings is goddamned awesome sounding. If you guys are interesting in doing something like that, we definitely need to reach out to as many anarchist communities out there as possible on and off the net, because I could see that kind of thing requiring quite a bit of manpower.
Trying to join the FSP would be a little easier, but not as cool.
dc047c No.8952
>>8947
I'm a bit apprehensive about still not knowing which place to start this community at, Detroit or NH. But post your email in the thread (a throwaway is fine obviously) and I can add you to the chatroom. I check this board every day.
If you guys don't want to make trips for this thread, than just using a consistent screen name in the chatroom would be fine.
And I'd recommend reading the whole thread to get a good feel of where I and the other frequent posters are coming from.
Let's not let the large number of posts on this thread lull us into thinking that we've actually made significant progress. We still need your emails for the chatroom.
So if you're a lurker and don't think you'll have much to add, your opinions will be a lot better received in the chatroom than in the frankly daunting shitposty atmosphere here.
b30b24 No.8954
>>8952
Yeah, here's my email: n1x@goat.si
dc047c No.8958
>>8954
Sent you the chatroom link just so you have it, but there's no reason to really click it now because I think we should try and work out a weekly time to chat. I sent you my thoughts on that in another email.
dc047c No.8974
OP here again, me and one person have gotten in contact, but I'm thinking we'll need 4 or 5 people to start out for our email list/chatroom.
He's suggested the Tox service as well (Skype-esque, you can look it up for more info) as an alternative to the admittedly pleb-tier chatroom.
Also, ayncraps are welcome. I don't see any reason for them not to be, the ayncrap community would be pretty far away from the ansoc communities.
8f78f8 No.8978
>>8952
I remember lurking this thread a few weeks back and digging what I was reading, I need to read the whole thing though
here's an email; stukedreca@throam.com
8f78f8 No.8982
>>8974
There are a bunch of shitty group chatrooms like titanpad or flockdraw or shit like that, that we could use and then basically throw away when we're done. Also email
dc047c No.8988
>>8982
Sent you an email, if you're the same guy as stukedreca. Also to the other guy.
0f4335 No.9015
>>8988
oi, eaten@riseup.net
also, I would recommend Tox. It's stable for the most part.
b30b24 No.9017
Just letting everyone else on the email list know that cock.li has been having server issues recently, so my emails may not be sending.
In the meantime, I'm waiting for an email account at Riseup to be approved - if not just so I'll have a backup account.
dc047c No.9018
>>9015
Sent you an email.
>>9017
I got the two emails from you about 8PM EST being too late, and the longer one about the Free Detroit people, and just replied.
The stukedreca@throam.com guy hasn't replied to the email I CCed him in though.
dc047c No.9019
>>9018
I also don't really have a proper mailing list set up, I can't find that function on my Mail.com account, so I've just been replying normally to you. So if you or Eaten want to set up a proper mailing list that would be fantastic,
b30b24 No.9021
>>9019
Right, I just tested that address and it does indeed appear to be working.
I don't know anything about Mail.com. I could see if cock.li has a mailing list function.
0f4335 No.9023
So I'm still doing a bit of discovery on all of this, but it seems there are some initiatives out of Detroit that are bubbling up. I hear of Free Detroit as a movement that's trying to accomplish things, but haven't gotten much on it besides a shitty webpage.
There is this, however, http://www.fireweeduniversecity.org/ and it seems pretty legit. It doesn't seem on quite the same vein, as far as the location they're aiming at, but it is something that's happening.
I personally really dig the idea of getting into some of these warehouses, but there's a lot that needs to be done on that front, really. There's quite a bit that needs doing that could be salvaged, but in the end there's going to be some money thrown in no matter which way you slice it.
b30b24 No.9024
>>9023
Yeah, I don't really know what the fuck these Free Detroit people are even doing, but the Fireweed Universe City thing is a great find. I do wonder how anarchist they are, but they seem like they'd be welcoming to a bunch of anarchist settlers.
It's something that hasn't been discussed very much yet, but as far as the beginning stages goes, yeah, it's going to require a bit of startup capital. It's possible that we could make whatever money we need to buy shit we wouldn't realistically be able to make (I'm thinking complicated devices like electronics that require access to the means of production which are entirely unavailable to us short of a full revolution) from selling whatever we can make or whatever services we can provide. If we were able to produce enough surplus produce from urban farming, we could easily undercut any corporate supermarkets, for instance, and be selling a better product to the community. It's important to remember that we would likely have little to no regular expenses since we wouldn't be paying rent to a landlord and would be living off the grid, so any money we'd be making could go directly into shit we need.
I may be repeating myself a lot here, but organizing is what we need. The more people we get involved in a project like this, the more resources and labor we can pool and the more overall strength we'd have as a settlement. Maybe I need to look harder or smarter, but it's disheartening to see how little activity ansoc has in the US in comparison to the ayncraps and libertarians, especially with regards to any sort of praxis like just having an anarchist space. There's land and buildings for the taking in Detroit, and I know there are at least a couple thousand ansoc people in the US. Where the fuck are mah comrades at?
0f4335 No.9027
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>9024
Vid related has a really interesting insights into what this Fireweed thing really is all about. The fist half is mostly feel good shit, but towards the middle and the end he sort of gets a little more raw as far as what day to day life is like up there. He says the community is open to whoever. He mentions there being crackheads and all, so I'm sure they've attracted a lot of different people and wouldn't be bothered by some anarchists. He stays away from political affiliations in the vid, but it's clear that it's largely anarchic.
I feel the organization. I'm just really happy to see stuff like Fireweed is already happening, but it seems to me that these people are doing this because the current system has failed where they are and they'd be happy to forego all of this if Detroit bounced back. I don't know. I'd need to feel out the vibe there personally, but it doesn't seem like these people are against the state.
Overall, I dig the Detroit option more than I dig going innawoods to the FSP. I like the urban environment too much.
b30b24 No.9029
>>9027
Watching this right now.
Yeah, from what I've seen thus far, it looks like this group and the Free Detroit people are basically aiming to rebuild Detroit with community organization and community service shit - which is all fine and good, but as you said, I think that they're only doing this because they have to for their own survival, and would be glad to see the State come back and fix things. It's good that there are people there showing that it is possible to make something happen with the abandoned areas of Detroit, but they're project of rebuilding Detroit is worrisome to me because if it ended up being too successful I could easily see a bunch of land appraisers and developers swooping in and claiming everything for the capitalist elite once it becomes valuable again.
Herein lies the importance of organizing with other ansoc anarchists. While I think we can all agree that we hate living under a capitalist regime and that the idea of living rent-free and job-free in an anarchist federation of communes and syndicates today sounds too good to be true, this isn't just for our own well-being. If we were to go through with this experiment, the aim would also be to prove that an anarchist society can work and can be prosperous, while also hopefully creating an anarchist space for the anarchists of the US to convene. If capitalists did end up trying to swoop in, then, we'd actively resist them.
I also am far more into the Detroit option, and it's starting to look like it wouldn't be unrealistically more difficult that joining the FSPers. I think joining the FSP should only be our last resort if we just can't get this thing off the ground and find enough anarchists willing to do this thing.
b30b24 No.9030
>>9029
Some more helpful shit on occupying Detroit (yes, it is Plebbit): http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/1jtd6y/squat_detroit/
"Detroiter here.
I think there are some remarkable opportunities for Detroit area anarchists. Shrekcellent already commented about the Trumbullplex, an already existing institution. There's also a bike co-op/squatters community/vegetarian cafe-meets-couch-surfing-locale that had a lot of influence in Occupy Detroit. Detroit is also rife with projects in community owned farming (See Brightmoor Farms, Earthworks, etc.) and other community oriented projects. There are tons of other social justice institutions in the area (my workplace, the Michigan Roundtable for Diversity and Inclusion, Affirmation [technically in a suburb], the Ruth Ellis Center, etc.). [Ninja edit: Check out Fireweed University, which is really cool!]
That all said, before you move to Detroit and start trying to make the locals revolt, remember some things about Detroit. Firstly, the poverty is immense. Around a third of people live below the poverty line - officially defined as a family of four subsisting on 20,000 dollars or less. Countless more are in the working poor or lower, lower, middle class. Half of the city is only functionally literate, with a substantial minority lacking the ability to read in any amount. Combine this with being the textbook example for Urban Sprawl, a city government that doesn't even pretend to try, and the extreme racial tension between second and third ring suburbs and the city, and you get a population of some of the most dispossessed people in the United States.
So, yes. Come to Detroit! Please! But don't due so with some grand idea of building the next Freetown Christiania. Don't think you're going to collectivize the DIA. Come to Detroit to live and work in solidarity with people who need it, with people who have been abandoned."
I hadn't considered this final point very seriously myself. I've always had like a fantasy of organizing a homeless revolt, but have never been too sure of how possible such a thing would be considering that a lot of homeless unfortunately have mental/drug issues or just a general (understandable) distrust of other people. But I wonder whether this could further be a benefit to considering Detroit; suppose we were able to get a bunch of anarchist settlers together, while also bringing together the downtrodden proletariat of Detroit into our community? That would be a revolution in the making if I ever saw one.
There's also this group Trumbullplex in Detroit - some sort of intentional anarchist community:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumbullplex
http://trumbullplex.org/
There's some organization potential right there.
0f4335 No.9031
>>9018
>and find enough anarchists willing to do this thing.
That's the big one, innit? Yeah, I'm probably going to Detroit just to do it at this point, but I will definitely hang out for any sort of planning we can do around this board.
>>9030
That is an excellent find. This place really is ripe for this sort of thing.
How do we get the news out that people should be doing this thing? Maybe we should compile some information on this and spread it around to anarchist hubs across the web. I'm sure a lot of people have heard about movements like these, but there's always a feeling of detachment for most people about this stuff. If we can put together a highly visible movement we might actually be able to have an exodus of sorts. The bigger a movement is the easier it is to get behind.
dc047c No.9033
To anyone who hasn't gotten an email from me yet, me and one other guy are thinking about Saturdays for having a chat on the Titanpad service. Post your emails in this thread so we can start to tell all you anons apart from eachother. I'm declining to post my own email in here the to keep out spammy shitposters.
dc047c No.9036
>>9030
Well shit, that really looks like all the support we would need right there. Trumbullplex, plus the Fireweed people, plus the Free Detroit website and FB page. We could also post on Libcom and Infoshop if we're really strapped for supporters.
Eventually we might have to reach out to non-activist Detroiters, because it'd be a little hard to have a thriving community in the abandoned parts of Detroit that's completely surrounded by the capitalist society. But working with impoverished people who are distrustful of others would be something we would be doing anyway, 30 years down the road when the Empire crumbles.
Though it sort of goes against the very rationale I had for starting a community in the first place, that it's inefficient to try and convince millions of people of anarchism if there's already a few thousand anarchists around able to start a community.
But as I was telling someone in the email thread, we don't have to be that worried if our supporters aren't ideologically aligned with us. Liberals don't really have a knee-jerk reaction against ansocs, and ayncraps don't have a problem with some dirty hippies starting a community somewhere. So they both would be interested in us. I can totally see a situation in the first few years where 40% of the people who are helping us are non-anarchists, helping us get the word out to other anarchists, who then go off and start their own liberal or ayncrap communities.
>>9027
I don't want to cause too much division by suggesting the FSP again, but it is true that we wouldn't have to convince as many people in that situation. We would be buying unused land, which could technically be right next to a major city. Or we could move into a small town and sway its inhabitants toward us.
0f4335 No.9037
>>9036
>I don't want to cause too much division by suggesting the FSP again,
It doesn't cause a divide. It's worth considering, that's for sure. I'd like to learn more about both of these places before settling anyway.
>Eventually we might have to reach out to non-activist Detroiters
Yeah, that'll have to be a part of it sooner of later. I would prefer if we could steer some like-minded people from other places to converge to wherever we go. As you said here
>it's inefficient to try and convince millions of people of anarchism if there's already a few thousand anarchists around able to start a community.
It makes a huge difference if we're spreading the word as people who haven't done something yet. If we can get established somewhere the odds of convincing anarchists to flock to us are a whole lot higher than if we're just talking about moving there. It's going to take some doing before anyone thinks we're serious.
000000 No.9040
>Go to chatzy.com
>Instantly forces me to enable JS due to emerging through a Tor exit node
>Site has no HTTPS
>It is 'free' (as in your communications are sold to third parties) is chock-full of trackers
Guys, srsly
Get a fucking IRC going. On Freenode.
One can't discuss tactics like this.
0f4335 No.9042
>>9040
Yeah, I don't know where chatzy came from, but really we should be Toxing.
dc047c No.9043
>>9040
>>9042
Sorry about that, we're actually using Titanpad now, not Chatzy. At least for the first chat on Saturday, we can discuss which service to use in that.
Or not, I mean if I'm the only person who really wants Titanpad than I'll go for Tox instead.
But you two should post your emails if you haven't already, and then I can get you in contact with the other techie guy on the email list and you guys can figure out what you want, then we can all give our votes for which service to use.
b30b24 No.9047
>>9031
Well, as another anon has said here >>9037 part of the problem is that we need to demonstrate that we're serious. A bunch of fags on an imageboard talking about occupying Detroit isn't enough to get most people's attention, but the more momentum we get and the more established our community becomes, the more people see that stability of our project and the more we'll be able to convince other anarchists to join us - as well as possibly get the endorsement of some major propagandists like CrimethInc., for instance, or other such groups.
But nevertheless, I agree that getting together some information - perhaps setting up a website even - would be great too. Having something tangible goes a long way.
>>9036
I still think that we're going to need more than five people settling there kek. There's an anarchist bookstore/cafe in my town, and I have like three anarchist friends, so I have some potential connections in my area and the people around here might be able to get me in touch with other anarchists/collectives/bookstores, so with a bit of work I might be able to get more people in my area interested in a startup sort of anarchist settlement in Detroit.
But, nevertheless, Trumbullplex and the Fireweed people do indeed make a huge difference. There are already things happening in the area that, like the abandoned buildings, are just waiting to be made into something valuable. And having squatters already established there is also huge because it means whatever group of settlers we get together wouldn't need to build everything up from the ground-up in an area none of us would be physically acquainted with.
I agree completely as well that trying to convince non-anarchists and non-activists - even if they are downtrodden and fed-up with their society - is somewhat of an exercise in futility when there are thousands of ansoc anarchists in the US who would be glad to join something like this if they saw that it was something real.
And yes, I agree that the ayncraps and liberals would probably be willing to help us out. What's important is that the ansoc position isn't under-represented and overshadowed by either one, because even if the liberals or ayncraps consider us to be a benign presence and would be willing to help us out, they still are only the enemy of our enemies (the State and Capitalists), make no mistake.
The FSP is significantly more established than anything we'd likely be able to get together, and will have a hell of a lot more ayncraps than we'd have ansoc. Detroit already has an anarchist presence and some libruls who probably would be more amenable to the idea of anarchism than ayncraps. But as I've said before, I definitely wouldn't discount the New Hampshire option entirely either.
>>9043
At a glance, it looks like Titanpad is sensitive to the privacy of its users, so I think it should work for the first meeting. Tox/IRC would probably be a better option IMO for future meetings.
dc047c No.9053
File: 1434740355366.png (24.16 KB, 400x199, 400:199, detroit-skyline-ccsd-psd-4….png)
eaten@riseup.net made a Tox chatroom that's password protected, so I guess we're doing that. Final decision, I swear.
For anyone who wants to join the discussion on Saturday, you don't have to post your emails in this thread anymore, just email eaten@riseup.net, and it looks like he'll email us all the password on Saturday at around 5 PM EST.
b30b24 No.9058
>>9053
Looking forward to it. Anarchy soon, fellow egos.
0f4335 No.9060
I have two e-mail addresses.
Hit me up, guys.
b30b24 No.9061
>>9060
send this guy an email for the Tox meeting >>9053
(if you don't have Tox, it's really easy to set up): https://wiki.tox.im/Binaries
dc047c No.9064
Does anyone who's knowledgeable about Tox want to shoot me an email to help me get the group going?
Riseup says he might not be available to send out invites, and he sent me a Groupbot that lists all the active groups. His email says the /anarcho/ group should be in the list, but it's not.
dc047c No.9065
You'll have to post your email in the thread this time.
dc047c No.9067
Sorry for the triple post, but it's actually not eaten@riseup.net that you'll have to email, since I'm not him and he's not available right now, I should've emphasized that I'm not him.
You'll have to just post your email in the thread, because I'm using the "official" Anarcho Chat email that I'm not giving out publicly.
b30b24 No.9069
Okay guys, so maybe I'm just an idiot and am doing something wrong, but I don't think you're able to create a groupchat using the default Groupbot that's listed on the wiki. Either that or the ToxBot source code on Github is just meant to be available for people to contribute to considering that the project is FOSS. But in any event, trying to set up a groupchat and then connect to it just results in me getting an "Error: Invalid group number" no matter what I put in.
So, anyways, I've been working for a few hours now getting Tox installed on my Linux machine so I can set up a groupchat using Toxic, but there's a lot of dependencies I have to install and it's been taking far longer than I could have imagined. I'm not going to be able to stay for very long at all in the chat today anyways either, so I wouldn't count on me being able to set something up in forty minutes.
So for the time being, I'm looking into whether I might be able to get something set up on IRC. But I've never used IRC before, so I kind of doubt I'll be able to get anything set up in time. For the time being, unless everyone is able to get organized onto something more convenient like Titanpad for this meeting, I'd recommend to just have an unofficial meeting in the thread and we can have something better set up for next week when two of us aren't going to be gone.
b30b24 No.9070
>>9069
Never mind comr8s, I've got us a channel set up on Freenode.
You'll need an IRC client (check this page for suggested clients: https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml)
Then, you'll need to connect to a server. If you add chat.freenode.net from Freenode's servers, you'll find #anarcho in the chat list. Post your emails if you haven't already so Eric can send you the chatroom password.
4e5d28 No.9074
>>9070
>freenode
>doesn't mask your IP
FBI pls go.
b30b24 No.9075
>>9074
Then why don't you suggest something instead of posting useless shit, comr8?
000000 No.9078
>2002 + 13
>not using Tor
Freenode allows for Tor and TLS connection simultaneously. It's known for hosing many channels of well-known free software projects.
Provide a better known/trusted IRC that allows for both Tor and TLS.
Tox is a project that started only a few years ago on fucking 4chan and has had many problems and controversies/drama over their short period of existence, everything from lousing programming, to bad encryption, to authoritarian behavior from 'senior' staff.
No you FBI.
000000 No.9079
>>9078 meant to link to >>9074
dc047c No.9084
File: 1434929673840.jpg (117.12 KB, 964x566, 482:283, article-2286878-1861F30E00….jpg)
Just in case anyone was wondering, it's possible that we're having another chat at the same time on the 27th, on the Freenode IRC that was posted earlier.
I'm not sure if anyone was able to join the IRC with Nix on the 20th.
f81195 No.9085
>>9078
>using Tor indiscriminately
FBI pls.
0f4335 No.9088
>>9085
>implying we don't know our shit
leave
e43991 No.9093
Liberland is a good choice if you're an ayncrap. They've already started to rustle the Croatian government - still a shame it's basically just a small area of 7 km^2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberland
dc047c No.9096
Progress on the next chat has slowed for now, since neither of the two people I was emailing, but anyone who wants to try and help me set up another one, on Tox on IRC or anywhere else, post your emails in the thread.
If you've already posted yours, it'd be a good idea to post it again. Nix and Eaten don't have to, obviously, they've already been talking to me, unless their emails don't work anymore.
If you don't want to post your email for security reasons, you should still post that you have that concern in the thread. And we can figure out a way to get in touch.
dc047c No.9097
>>9096
The first sentence should say "neither of the two people I was emailing are emailing me back"
8f78f8 No.9102
>>9018
Stukedreca was just a temporary email, darih@420blaze.it is the more permanent one, but I never got anything in either– that may be because cockmail is freaking out tho
dc047c No.9106
>>9102
You're not Nix, are you?
dc047c No.9121
It looks like anyone interested in this are going to have to just start up a conversation with me in this thread, since the two people I've been emailing aren't writing back.
I assume their emails just aren't working, if either of you have actually managed to hold a chat on IRC or Titanpad, you should tell me about it here.
Otherwise, for anyone else, just talk to me on here. It looks like no one other than Darih, Nix, and Eaten want to post their emails.
7137ca No.9249
>>7358
i think about 1/3rd of kenyans use bitcoin for remittances now
6b6be7 No.9254
i dont wanna live in a ghetto