[ / / / / / / / / ] [ b / n / boards ] [ operate / meta ] [ ]

/anarcho/ - Anarchism Board

Anti-Capitalist & Anti-State

Catalog

8chan Bitcoin address: 1NpQaXqmCBji6gfX8UgaQEmEstvVY7U32C | Buy Bitcoin easily in the US | Buy Bitcoin anonymously all over the world | Bitcoin FAQ
Name
Email
Subject
Comment *
File
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Flag
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options
dicesidesmodifier
Password (For file and post deletion.)

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 8 MB.
Max image dimensions are 10000 x 10000.
You may upload 5 per post.


Revolt. Agitate. Organize. Educate. Board Guidelines

File: 1423585893921.jpg (4.48 KB, 188x245, 188:245, spooner.jpg)

995434 No.7440

Lysander Spooner supported private property:

"The reason given for usury laws is, that they protect the poor from the extortions of the rich. But this reason is a false one-for there is no more extortion in loaning capital to the best bidder, than in selling a horse, or renting a house to the best bidder."

Does this mean he was not a real anarchist?

261c54 No.7442


995434 No.7444

>>7442
He said right out that there is no more extortion in loaning capital to the best bidder, than in selling a horse. He also wrote:

"There is no limit, fixed by the law of nature, to the amount of property one may acquire by simply taking possession of natural wealth, not already possessed …. [H]e holds the land in order to hold the labor which he has put into it, or upon it. And the land is his, so long as the labor he has expended upon it remains in a condition to be valuable for the uses for which it was expended; because it is not to be supposed that a man has abandoned the fruits of his labor so long as they remain in a state to be practically useful to him. …

The principle of property is, that the owner of a thing has absolute dominion over it, whether he have it in actual possession or not, and whether he himself wish to use it or not; that no one has a right to take possession of it, or use it, without his consent; and that he has a perfect right to withhold both the possession and use of it from others, from no other motive than to induce them, or make it necessary for them, to buy it, or rent it, and pay him an equivalent for it, or for its use. … The right of property, therefore, is a right of absolute dominion over a commodity, whether the owner wish to retain it in his own actual possession and use, or not. It is a right to forbid others to use it, without his consent. If it were not so, men could never sell, rent, or give away those commodities, which they do not themselves wish to keep or use – but would lose their right of property in them – that is, their right of dominion over them – the moment they suspended their personal possession and use of them.

It is because a man has this right of absolute dominion over the fruits of his labor, and can forbid other men to use them without his consent, whether he himself retain his actual possession and use of them or not, that nearly all men are engaged in the production of commodities, which they themselves have no use for, and cannot retain any actual possession of, and which they produce solely for purposes of sale, or rent. In fact, there is no article of corporeal property whatever, exterior to one's person, which owners are in the habit of keeping in such actual and constant possession or use, as would be necessary in order to secure it to themselves, if the right of property, originally derived from labor, did not remain in the absence of possession."

He did not believe in capitalism, but surely he believed in private property. So that certainly is not what makes ayncraps non-anarchists. What about employment? Benjamin Tucker and other individualist anarchists defended that.

"When interest, rent, and profit disappear under the influence of free money, free land, and free trade, it will make no difference whether men work for themselves, or are employed, or employ others. In any case they can get nothing but that wage for their labor which free competition determines."
-Benjamin Tucker

"It is right that one man employ another, it is right that he pay him wages, and it is right that he direct him absolutely, arbitrarily in the performance of his labor."
- Stephen Pearl Andrews

"I pass to the extreme Individualists, - those who hold to the tradition of political economy, and are firm in the idea that the system of employer and employed, buying and selling, banking, and all the other essential institutions of Commercialism, centering upon private property, are in themselves good, and are rendered vicious merely by the interference of the State."
-Voltairine de Cleyre

2a4323 No.7456

>>7444
Benjamin Tucker actually didn't accept anarcho-communists as true anarchists, but he often accepted classical liberals as anarchists. He said that Auberon Herbert (originator of word 'Voluntaryism') was a true anarchist in everything but name.

72af80 No.7513

I find this video to be very related to this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWp8wDY6Og

72af80 No.7514

File: 1424015800930.png (96.11 KB, 1375x729, 1375:729, political-compass-modern-i….png)

The individualist anarchists sprung out of the American adoption of Proudhonian mutualism. It differed greatly though, since they (Americans in general really) didn't believe in the more European values of solidarity and working together. They took the individualist approach to mutualism to its furthest logical conclusion, while even modifying it here and there (for example in regards to private property). They were heavily influenced by Lockean liberalism, in contrast to the egalitarian thoughts of Rousseau which communal anarchists more adhere to.
This actually sets them apart from actual mutualism, as they support not only hierarchies in relation to business, but also private property, police and law to re-inforce each other. This Proudhon warned against, since he thought it would inevitably lead to the creation of a state once more.

A more informal term for this American wing of individualist anarchism would be anarchist liberalism. This is what anarcho-capitalism sprung out of.

Some relevant trivia: Benjamin Tucker for example called his anarchism "unterrified Jeffersonianism".

261c54 No.7516

>>7514
What about European individualists like Émile Armand or Renzo Novatore?

72af80 No.7518

>>7516
Both pretty unrelated to any of the points which I put forward. None of them entertained the liberal ideals of Tucker or Spooner.
I would call Armand, economically, a classical mutualist, while socially entertaining more naturist (green anarchist) thoughts (that which he was known for). Novatore was a 'propaganda-of-the-deed' kind of egoist anarchist, again unrelated to American liberal anarchism that I was talking about earlier.

Yes, Armand took some influences from Tucker, but not in the liberalish points which I addressed, but in the more general areas of mutualism, which Tucker of course also contributed a lot to.

7a8e56 No.7530

>>7514

Proudhon supported private property. He said everyone ought to own property. The American distributism tradition is right out of Proudhon.

72af80 No.7533

>>7530
>Proudhon supported private property.
Proudhon supported personal property.

Don't speak in absolutes on matters that you're not properly informed on.

995434 No.7570

>>7514
If only more anarchists understood that there were individualist anarchists that believed in private property. In the Anarchist FAQ they completely ignored the individualist anarchists that believed in private property and claimed that they all believed in occupancy and use
http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/1931/secG3.html

Also this part is completely ahistorical:
"In this way, we can show the fundamental differences between the two theories for while there are often great differences between specific individualist anarchist thinkers all share a vision of a free society distinctly at odds with the capitalism of their time as well as the "pure" system of economic textbooks and right-"libertarian" dreams (which, ironically, so often reflects the 19th century capitalism the individualist anarchists were fighting)."
The people that wrote this article doesn't know much about history. The gilded age was not right-libertarian at all. Political favors, tariffs and patents all over the place. http://praxeology.net/RC-BRS.htm

995434 No.8628

File: 1430566563809.png (17.47 KB, 640x400, 8:5, spooner tucker=ancap.png)

If you combine Spooner's and Tucker's ideas they overlap completely with anarcho-capitalism.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / ] [ b / n / boards ] [ operate / meta ] [ ]