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File: 1434222266368.jpg (101.45 KB, 894x738, 149:123, 1362034576351.jpg)

168429 No.8971

two word argument against anarchy

nuclear weapons

21f30f No.8973

>>8971

Expand.


ae81e6 No.8975

Perhaps that one person next to the big red button can ruin for the rest of us? Wouldn't there need to be some sort of prevention of creating nuclear weapons in a stateless civilization to prevent some capable sociopath from making and using reactors and bombs. Or to insure safe (if there is safe way, if not prevention of) management of nuclear power and existing weapons, including waste. Idk.


4b7827 No.8976

Thats not an argument, that's a statement.

If you have an argument provide one, if not then fuck off.


000000 No.8977

>>8975

>Wouldn't there need to be some sort of prevention of creating nuclear weapons in a stateless civilization to prevent some capable sociopath from making and using reactors and bombs.

You're the one assuming that anarchism = chaos. This is a lie perpetuated by the hegemonic powers that control, among others, the media. This is not an accuate reflection of what anarchism as a philosophy is or advocates as various economic or organizational systems.

If you want to learn more about anarchist organizational systems / bioregional governance/economics or answers given / introductory knowledge; I advice you to take a look at the following pages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_economics

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/index.html


8d7cd3 No.8979

>>8971

>take millions of dollars to maintain and build

>requires a team of scientists and stuff

>even the smartest terrorists could only ever build a crude device

>the ones we have now are set to permanently shut off if they are tampered with, similar to what cars have to prevent hot-wiring

>the ones in existence are decades old with no guarantee of ever being able to launch

not scared of a nuke really


3550c0 No.8980

File: 1434340578695.png (35.6 KB, 342x238, 171:119, At first but then stirner.png)

>>8979

Source?


1172fc No.8981

electricity easements


8d7cd3 No.8983


8f9c51 No.8989

>>8979

Okay so the counter argument is that anarchist economy would be too poor to be able to amass enough money and they'd lack the intelligence to maintain the systems.

So basically what everyone else already knows the anarchist world would be like.


8f9c51 No.8990

File: 1434443738308.jpg (6.85 KB, 250x207, 250:207, 1409466087641.jpg)

>the anarchist revoution has occurred

>yay anarchy! the beaches are back open, woohoo!

>utilize one of the nuclear weapons of the U.S. military which now have zero surveillance or security and were exploitable to begin with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1ya-yF35g


b16d48 No.8991

>be an anarchist society

>oh no, crazy capitalist pigs have gotten a hold of nuclear weapons somehow

>they threaten to nuke all the anarchists if they don't work in their factories

>the anarchists refuse and are up in arms

>the capitalists somehow manage to nuke all the anarchists

>holy shit these capitalist pigs slaughtered thousands of people who weren't doing anything to them

>people get pissed

>capitalists nuke everyone else

>no workers left

>they have to *gasp* do their own labor

>they realize the plight of the proletariat and become anarchists themselves

I'm not seeing the problem here, OP :^)

Also sage goes in all fields for this stupid shit-tier thread.


cb933b No.8992

>be government

>world war 1 and 2

>nuke hiroshima nagasaki

>constantly threaten to kill anyone not following ur ways of capitalism internationally

t-thanks hierarchism I guess


4073d0 No.8993

Shit thread is shit, what's to motivate people to use nukes and how would they even do it in an Anarchist society and how would it be a problem caused by Anarchism? Why do you think that people would just ignore the nukes that could kill them and let anybody mess with them?

>>8989

>Judging a society that is completely different by Capitalist standards

>basically saying Anarchism is shit because it's not Capitalism


8f9c51 No.8994

>>8991

More like the anarchists nuke capitalists. Or just other anarchists because they won't share.

Though it doesn't really matter. Nukes would be wholly unregulated so anyone could take them for any reason, including just nuking the whyole planet.


8f9c51 No.8995

>>8993

>Why do you think that people would just ignore the nukes that could kill them and let anybody mess with them?

I would oppressive and hierarchical, antithetical to anarchism, to ban them.

>>8993

I didn't say anything about capitalism being preferred or not, just that anarchist political economy would lead to the lowest of all livelihoods. Even the USSR could outproduce a tribe of anarchist vermin.


bac005 No.8996

File: 1434483794579.jpg (41.32 KB, 480x480, 1:1, 8chins.jpg)

>>8995

>tribe

Oh boy, you really have no idea of what you are talking about.


8d7cd3 No.8998

>>8989

>too poor to

the government would be poor, since it's not there, no militia could possibly maintain it

>they'd lack the intelligence

see above, science people dont work for james bond villans for cheap


b16d48 No.9002

File: 1434510285934.png (319.31 KB, 803x688, 803:688, 1434133267869.png)

>>8994

>implying one of the first things anarchists would do wouldn't be to completely dismantle any push-button mass death devices in existence

>explicitly stating that anarchists would just murder each other wholesale because of slight disagreements on what the ideal society's economic system should be


e03348 No.9003

File: 1434510729646.jpg (64.29 KB, 584x590, 292:295, problematic.jpg)

>>9002

>explicitly stating that people would just murder each other wholesale because of slight disagreements on what the ideal society's economic system should be

FTFY


b16d48 No.9005

>>9003

>implying "people" kill each other because of slight disagreements in how they want to live without any intent of forcing their economic system et. al. onto nonconsenting parties

>not "States spreading dissent and propaganda because a country has resources that the people in power want"

>implying that wars are fought because of ideology

Seriously, get off this board.


8f9c51 No.9016

File: 1434598619643.jpg (191.83 KB, 681x538, 681:538, 1408769296055.jpg)

>>9002

>implying the nuclear arms trade would not be completely unregulated

>implying there aren't low-cost nuclear weapons especially without all the current safety features

>>9002

>>implying one of the first things anarchists would do wouldn't be to completely dismantle any push-button mass death devices in existence

Yeah just like how states claim to engage in mutual dissaraments while keeping secret reserves.

>be in anarchist nuclear disposal council

>lie about what I'm doing and keep secret stash for later trading

Unless you think anarchy will fundamentally change human nature so that all people are wholly anarchist and act anarchist all the time.

>>8998

>>too poor to

>

>the government would be poor, since it's not there, no militia could possibly maintain it

>

>>they'd lack the intelligence

>

>see above, science people dont work for james bond villans for cheap

Well Bond villains are already extremely rich and fund there evil layers in hopes that their plans will render even more money in the future, or just supreme lels to see millions die.

>>8991

>implying anarchism implemented in one region of the world means anarchism is deployed across the world.

Pretty fanciful imo. It'd be quite a stretch to suggest that the anarchist evolution happens in an afternoon and suddenly everyone is an anarchist.

Seems much more likely that world revolution is impossible and an anarchist society could only occur in certain places. Why would a state like China not find it advantageous to, say, position a nuke off the coast of Anarchist California and exploit the entire population by demanding payments and delivery of raw materials and harvests (since anarchists hate money lel)? A state, contrary to the anarchists, does not leave the population helpless to the exploits of another state by the presence of a standing military force and robust system of nuclear weapons for infiltration nuclear missiles as well as a strong enough deterrent against nuclear-armed states.

There's no way you could abolish nuclear weapons within the anarchist reservation, let alone on a global scale. It's an issue every system of thought must grapple with,.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l08uX0mJgB0

Here's a debate between a minarchist and an anarchist (albeit an ayncrap but there is no discussion of capitalism since they both agree on that position; he may as well be an anarchist given the subject matter, just replace with word aggression with hierarchy). Jan has debated several influential ayncraps and I've not seen one of them give a suitable answer to the issue of states extorting anarchists using nuclear weapons and I'm not aware if he has discussed it with left-anarchists.

The truth of the matter is you have no way to deal with existing nuclear states. An anarchist revolution spanning the entire world in short order is fanciful and not at all likely. Even if it were, the necessary steps of disarmament would be hampered due to the fact that many would not be deceitful or facilities would be infiltrated and arms moved into black markets before they can be properly disarmed. With states like India, China, Pakistan being nuclear-armed you have a fat chance that they'd voluntarily disarm, let alone be willing to convert too anarchism.

>>9002

>>explicitly stating that anarchists would just murder each other wholesale because of slight disagreements on what the ideal society's economic system should be

Well I meant with the way in which resources are distributed in the anarchist society. Given that life itself becomes politicized you could consider any issues of distribution as a fundamentally political however.

And given all prior modern experiences with anarchy (no need to venture far back into history) like in the Spanish Revolution, anarchists are willing to shed blood over politics, even among fellow anarchists. You could say that experience was not true anarchism and true anarchy has not been seen before but that does nothing to make anarchism any more compelling or to support the idea anarchists would not murder wholesale over disagreements.

>>implying one of the first things anarchists would do wouldn't be to completely dismantle any push-button mass death devices in existence

See above arguments. Nuclear abolition is a fanciful pipe dream. It's no more compelling in the absence of states than with their universal prevalence.


e03348 No.9020

>>9005

>implying people kill each other because of slight disagreements

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/08/05/cops-man-shot-dead-over-cheeseburger.html


b16d48 No.9022

>>9016

Notwithstanding

>"muh human nature", and

>"anarchy can never be worldwide!"

I suppose you're right that an anarchist society would basically have no choice but to, as with their military, keep a stock of nuclear weapons in order to have some means of keeping any nuclear States from just deciding to launch all the nukes at an anarchist society. Frankly, though - considering that the State would only be interested in their resources - I don't see why this State would just decide to nuke all the anarchists who are posing no threat to them. It would destroy the land and make it inhospitable, you know.

And as far as anarchists killing each other goes: Unless we're talking about ancraps and them either threatening other anarchists, or anarchists seeking to destroy the ancraps, it would be completely against the principles of anarchy for some anarcho-syndicalists to kill a bunch of anarcho-communists next door who are doing nothing to them just because the anarcho-syndicalists think that communes aren't the best possible economic system. This group of people wouldn't be real anarchists by any stretch of the imagination.

>>9020

>linking to Faux News without archiving

Why the fuck would anyone in an anarchist society kill someone over a cheeseburger when all the cheeseburgers are provided for free to everyone? Anyone who would kill over a petty dispute like this without a good reason like their life being at stake is obviously someone who has mental problems, and questions about how crime would be handled in an anarchist society have already been answered in many places.


8f9c51 No.9025

File: 1434608061627.jpg (191.83 KB, 681x538, 681:538, 1408769296055.jpg)

>>9022

>>"muh human nature", and

Human nature has no place in this? I did not mention it and it seems you are the one relying on it by suggesting it is malleable enough so that people would be willing to change at the scale of an entire society. As though overnight people could rebuke God and other religious belief, rebuke the government they have supported since their early youth, and reject capitalist markets altogether. Who exactly is relying on human nature here if not yourself?

>>"anarchy can never be worldwide!"

It seems again that only you said this.

The trouble is that you seem to suppose that it in fact could and that the revolution would happen at a rapid pace. It seems there'd have to be a World Revolution producing seven billion anarchists, the disposal of 194 sovereign states, and the end of thousands of world religions and faiths, not to mention the economic changes, all occurring in an afternoon for you to be right.

>I suppose you're right that an anarchist society would basically have no choice but to, as with their military, keep a stock of nuclear weapons in order to have some means of keeping any nuclear States from just deciding to launch all the nukes at an anarchist society.

Oh man this is so rich.

And how do you expect the anarchists would maintain a military force? Perhaps would anarchist conscription be necessary to fill the ranks? And how would the anarchist army be capable of funding itself to keep its resources on par with the latest military developments to prevent armed invasion by states?

Earlier I saw it mentioned, as though it were a substantive argument, that in an anarchist society they wouldn't have enough money (lol an admission they'd be poor) to maintain a nuclear arsenal. Is this issue now absolved? Would they perhaps need to levy a tax? How would these facilities be protected and excluded from anyone's use without contradicting anarchist principles at some point? It also seems to be granted that in anarchist land there would be no money so it's a mystery to me as to how funds could be allocated to this project.

>Frankly, though - considering that the State would only be interested in their resources - I don't see why this State would just decide to nuke all the anarchists who are posing no threat to them. It would destroy the land and make it inhospitable, you know.

It's extortion. And besides you can prey on more than just one anarchist clan. If one is stupid enough not to capitulate and you blow them to glass the next ones will see you are not playing chicken.

>>9022

>Why the fuck would anyone in an anarchist society kill someone over a cheeseburger when all the cheeseburgers are provided for free to everyone? Anyone who would kill over a petty dispute like this without a good reason like their life being at stake is obviously someone who has mental problems, and questions about how crime would be handled in an anarchist society have already been answered in many places.

Well anon I think he was making the point that people do indeed resort to violence over small disputes. Not always for rational reasons. Some people have been socialized to behave in macho gangster ways or are born mentally unstable. Others may be intoxicated by heavy drugs which, under anarchism would be wholly legal and "free" for them to use.

And when you get into political disagreements I don't see why anarchists would not behave in aggressive and lethal manners.

And who exactly will be making all these free cheeseburgers? This assertion of yours that they'd be free yet still plentiful is quite interesting to me since a) it bends the laws of economics and the rest of the world would like to exploit this flaw in their laws to bring about Nirvana and b) I would very much like access to free and plentiful cheeseburgers.


8f9c51 No.9026

File: 1434608389497.jpg (90.75 KB, 555x539, 555:539, 1410662004386.jpg)

>>9025

meant to use this image


b16d48 No.9028

>>9025

>>9016

>Unless you think anarchy will fundamentally change human nature

>Seems much more likely that world revolution is impossible

Now then: I find it very hard to believe that conscription would even be necessary. Do you seriously think that the vast majority of an anarchist society, after having fought for freedom from authority, would just sit back and do nothing if they were being threatened by a foreign power? And how does "funding" or taxation now become an issue in a non-capitalist society? Considering that communes/syndicates are going to need the means to defend themselves, they would be in a federation with communes/syndicates of weapons scientists and weapon manufacturers, who would have access to the means of production in a non-capitalist society and so would be able to research and produce weapons that the proles in a hierarchical society would have no access to. No different from any other industry that the workers would own the means of production to under an anarchist society.

>Big Bad State tries to extort anarchists at Calionia

>"Oh yeah well we'll nuke you if you nuke us"

>Big Bad State does so anyways for some reason

>The Informal Nuclear Arms Federation of California holds a council and agrees to destroy Big Bad State because they blew up Calionia

>Big Bad State just started a nuclear war with a decentralized federation of anarchist communes

Yeah, that could happen, but it'd be a lot smarter for this hypothetical State to try conventional warfare before resorting to nuclear war. There's a reason there's such a phrase as "the nuclear option"; and then, as I've just answered, an anarchist society would obviously be prepared to defend the society they worked so hard to liberate, would have the means to do so, and by being a decentralized operation defending their homeland rather than an imperialistic military campaign this hypothetical State would be dealing with unconventional guerrilla warfare shit with basically the entire population out to kill their expedition of soldiers.

>'B-but if it's decentralized and non-hierarchical how can they win!?!'

>what is Vietnam

>second point

Under an anarchist society, the sociological conditions that would mold people to be irrationally violent and "macho" would either cease to exist or would be drastically reduced compared to now. Crime would never be completely gone, but the reasons for engaging in crime would be fewer and fewer than in a capitalist society where individuals are alienated and forced into the poverty-stricken conditions that lead to them joining gangs. People who otherwise were raised by an exception to this or who were born unstable and so wanted to engage in violence for its own sake would be dealt with like any other society in history has regardless of whether or not there was a State to enforce a host of irrational and unnecessary laws. Same goes for irresponsible individuals doing drugs that cause them to be violent.

Anarchists wouldn't behave aggressively and lethally over politics that didn't involve resisting the authority and oppression of alien parties because behaving lethally and aggressively to a group of people who are not harming you nor anyone else is not fucking anarchism.

I'm not even going to bother addressing your last question in depth since it goes into a very broad topic on scarcity and communist/syndicalist economies that you clearly haven't even bothered to do any research on. Suffice to say that we currently have the technology such that we could very easily feed everyone in the world, but don't do so because 1). The bourgeois elite doesn't give a fuck about feeding hungry people when they can make more money elsewhere, and 2). We waste the vast majority of our means of production and labor on manufacturing useless consumerist trinkets and on fulfilling useless, repetitive jobs like paper pushing that has no relevance to the real world.




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