/asatru/ - Asatru / Heathenry / Paganism

Valhalla is for great warriors. Not even your average soldier who dies in battle gets to go there. Let alone you, who is probably as militant as a mall cop. You people who think that when you die you either go to Helheim or Valhalla are Putting a christian afterlife in a place it shouldn't be. I do think Helheim and Valhalla exist, but a minority of people enter those places and they are not restricted there for eternity. The vast majority of your ancestors live on reincarnated in their descendants, or as spirits helping their descendants or waiting for such a time as they can be reincarnated.

Perhaps christians were taken to Helheim for a time and briefly punished, before accepting the truth and being allowed to leave as spirits.

You can still respect your christian ancestors and venerate them, because unless you believe that every world belief is true for those who believe it then, they are not dead Christians but heathen spirits.

They are kin and should of course be honored as such.

I think only the first couple of generations after conversion can really be said to have betrayed their ancestors. But in most cases this was not out of a genuine fanaticism for the foreign Semitic ways that intruded upon our ancestral lands, but under political and social pressure.

Also 1500 years is very much on the high end. For many of us it's just now coming up on 1000 years.

>>5381

first of all Valhalla is the halls of the slain, domain of the glorious dead. Mist souls go to the other afterlives, which include helheim, thors halls, baldrs halls, freyjas halls and many more.

This: >>5381

>You people who think that when you die you either go to Helheim or Valhalla are Putting a christian afterlife in a place it shouldn't be.

Also:

>>5385

>Mist souls go to the other afterlives, which include helheim, thors halls, baldrs halls, freyjas halls and many more.

Dying into the halls of one's patron is also a product of the Heathen worldview intermingling with the Christian worldview during the conversion period.

See the later posts in this thread for more specifics:

>>2449

>>5380

>Are those ancestors waiting for us in Valhalla?

That's a complicated question. First of all, stop thinking of Valhalla as the christfag heaven. It's not like a place where everyone goes if they were good, it's a reward for exceptionally brave conduct in battle. It's way, way more like a military medal than a meeting place after death. You'll probably never see it, nor will I or most of us here, not unless we end up in a battle somehow and prove we actually have some balls. And even then, don't rule out Freya's Folkvangr either, a warrior has just as much chance of ending up there as Valhalla. However, yes, I would think that a Christian who proved himself would be welcome there, if he chose to go. We're judged by our values and bravery, not how we worship gods.

Also remember, our faith has always held that our gods aren't necessarily the only ones. Our gods watch over us, people from other cultures have their gods watching over them.

>Do they guide us as well?

Of course, retard. Do you think being in another religion lessens most peoples' caring for their kin? That's a common moral in most religions, Asatru just presses it more than most.

>Do we venerate them the same?

Of course we do. My grandfather was a devout Christian. He also lived an adventurous life, he went everywhere from the Middle East to the glaciers in Greenland, helped push the boundaries of science and knowledge at the time, and fought bravely in World War Two. I look to him for guidance more than anyone else in my travels.

>Are they welcomed with open arms by Pagan ancestors?

Remember, we're beings of free will even after death. "Pagans" don't have one collective opinion in any other world any more than we do here. Some will accept them and some won't, just like in this world. However, any who truly hold to our values won't let someone else's religion get in the way of judging them on the things that really matter, like their bravery and loyalty, and above all remain loyal to their kin.

>>5405

>think that a Christian who proved himself would be welcome there (Valhalla)

This is backed up by Hacon the Good's saga, the very first Christian king of Norway(although Norway remained Pagan for many centuries and it would be a while before another Christian king). When Hacon died in a glorious battle, he died in Norway (Heathendom) which was outside of churches or priests. This shows something interesting in itself, that Hacon believed the Christ-gods power only extended in Christendom. He asked for a Heathen burial begrudgingly and was welcomed in Valhalla, where he sat with Odin and the Gods.

So yes, a Christian can go to Valhalla, but it seems to be implied that he has to choose at the last moment either before death or in the afterlife. It does say that Valkyries chose him to die in battle, so perhaps if Odin chooses you, you go no matter your faith.

>>5388

>most souls

also how is this a Christian intermingling? Im curious

>>5412

In contrast to the egalitarianism of Christianity, Heathenry is a hierarchical worldview, in both the physical and spiritual realm.

The high gods and goddesses' (Odin, Thor, Freyja, etc.) area of governance is the tribe as a whole, and the affairs of kings, chieftains, priests, etc. They did not get involved in the personal affairs of the everyday man. The folk as a whole would venerate and give offerings to the high gods for the sake of blessings and protection upon the entire tribe, but they did not each have individual personal relationships with the high gods.

In terms of more personal relationships on a spiritual level, everyday folk like you and me would get that from the spirits of one's land, household, clan and ancestors, which is more than likely where the Christian concept of guardian angels eventually evolved from.

>>5415

Cont'd:

To use a metaphor:

Going to your local spirits (land, clan, ancestors, etc.) for aid with a personal problem is like going to a family member or a friendly neighbor.

Going to one or more of the high gods/goddesses for aid with a personal problem is like driving to the Mayor's mansion or the White House and trying to get in to speak with the Mayor or President about help with your personal problems. The folk/tribe/nation as a whole beseeches the king/chieftain/president for aid and guidance, but the king/chieftain/president does not have bowling nights with every single person in his kingdom.

The concept of having a patron/personal relationship with a high god/goddess is the product of influence from Wicca, which in turn was influenced by the Christian concept of the "personal relationship with Christ." Thus, it's Christian baggage. (In spite of its adherent's famous animosity towards Christianity, Wicca, is ironically at its core, essentially pagan flavored Christianity in terms of worldview.)

>>5416

There are some examples from the Icelandic Sagas that are oftentimes utilized as specious evidence in favor of the patron/personal relationship with the high gods concept, such as when Thorgerda threatens to not eat until she sups with Freyja in "Egil's Saga." However, keep in mind that the Sagas were written post-conversion, and though they can be great sources, they do carry some Christian influence.

For example, this moment in the saga of Thorfinn Karlsefne, which is blatant pro-Christian propaganda:

They were there for the winter without having provided food beforehand. In the summer the fishing declined, and they were badly off for provisions; then disappeared Thorhall the huntsman. They had previously made prayers to God for food, but it did not come so quick as they thought their necessities required. They searched after Thorhall for three days, and found him on the top of a rock; there he lay, and looked up in the sky, and gaped both with nose and mouth, and murmured something; they asked him why he had gone there; he said it was no business of theirs; they bade him come home with them, and he did so. Soon after, came there a whale, and they went thither, and cut it up, and no one knew, what sort of whale it was; and when the cooked dressed it then ate they, and all became ill in consequence. Then said Thorhall: "The red bearded was more helpful than your Christ; this have I got now for my verses that I sung of Thor, my protector; seldom has he deserted me." But when they came to know this, they cast the whole whale into the sea, and resigned their case to God. Then the weather improved, and it was possible to row out fishing, and they were not then in want of provisions, for wild beasts were caught on the land, and fish in the sea, and eggs collected on the island.

Of special note is "The Saga of Hrafnkel Frey's Godi." On one hand, Hrafenkel's dedication of his horse to Frey backfires to the point of him renouncing his worship of Frey, which could be Christian propaganda.

Nevertheless, Hrafenkel is a Chieftain, and thus, the sacrificial rituals and the dedication of his horse, could be based on the actual relationships between a persona of great worth and renown and the local high god.

Plus, rather than converting to Christianity, Hrafenkel becomes an atheist, and proceeds to win back all of his wealth and renown and takes revenge upon his enemies with only his own personal might and main, void of any assistance from the high gods. Thus, it could be a morality tale illustrating the high amount of luck that some individuals of renown are bestowed with even without assistance from the gods.

As for sources for what I've said, start with these for explanations of the Heathen afterlife:

http://www.heathengods.com/library/road_to_hel/road_to_hel.pdf

http://heathengods.com/library/bil_linzie/after_life_bil_linzie.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/seidhman/reincarnation2.pdf

And then go through these if you want further details on the concept of spiritual hierarchy:

http://heathengods.com/library/bil_linzie/

http://www.heathengods.com/library/culture_of_the_teutons/culture_of_the_teutons.pdf

>>5386

That doesn't have Race in it. Why?

>>5532

Also the Fidelity virtue could be considered "Race".

http://www.odinsvolk.ca/O.V.A.%20-%20NNV.htm#Fidelity

>Fidelity is the will to be loyal to one's Gods and Goddesses, to one's Folk, to one's self, and loyalty to one's friends was as valued as highly as loyalty to one's family.