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The rejection of belief in the existence of deities

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File: 1438353739636.png (577.34 KB, 1113x702, 371:234, Reality vs SJWism.png)

3bf76e No.10154

So I went on voat yesterday and found this argument. Could somebody tell me who is correct here? I think lawmowerman is correct because edgelord keeps trying to change the defintions of words like a feminist. I don't know much about science but I am pretty sure if science were true then the definitions of words will not change. Edgelord says that they do so that means that edgelord is just lying to win the argument right?

This argument confuses me. Could somebody who is scientifically literate explain who is right?

3bf76e No.10155


ecf522 No.10156

File: 1438355369910.png (279 KB, 468x347, 468:347, 1388983014987.png)

>Could somebody tell me who is correct here?

>I think lawmowerman is correct because edgelord keeps trying to change the defintions of words

Neither of these is how being correct works. There isn't necessarily a correct party in an argument. One person being correct in an argument doesn't preclude the other from being correct. Either, neither or both could be correct in part but incorrect in whole, or they could be correct in their main point but for incorrect reasons. edgelord was arguing about the appropriateness of words, not trying to change definitions.

A fetus is literally a parasite. It's an organism that has a relationship with another organism where it benefits and the host is harmed. This is more true of humans than other mammals, as human fetuses share their mother's bloodstream and put a very heavy load on her metabolism relatively speaking. Not to mention very common injuries to the birth canal and genitals due to the way out-of-proportion head. There are benefits to motherhood, obviously, but that doesn't change the fact that babies carry detriments to a woman's health.

"Unborn child" is an ambiguous term. The "unborn" part disappears at birth, but when does the organic matter become a child? Germ cells (sperm/egg) are clearly not children or we would mourn every ejaculation and menstrual cycle. Is the zygote (fertilied egg) a child? Well, 1 in 8 of those will fail to attach to the uterine lining (a defense mechanism evolved in mothers to protect them from wasting resources on weaker zygotes). What about an embryo/fetus? At what point in development would that become a child? When it has a face? When it has a heartbeat? When it can feel pain? When it can survive outside the womb? None of these are hard lines, and aside from the ability to feel pain, what reason is there for picking that line over another? Besides, would we afford similar benefits to non-humans at any life stage where such a trait is present? "Unborn child" is not a scientific term, and it's a further impediment to rational discussion because it is very much emotionally charged and quite vague in its definition. Nobody's changing the definition. edgelord is pointing out that using a term like that is just a cheap tactic to try to get people to feel their way into agreeing instead of thinking their way into maybe disagreeing.

>I don't know much about science but I am pretty sure if science were true then the definitions of words will not change

In spirit, that would be the polar opposite of science. The entire point of science is that it changes to adapt to new and better evidence. Nothing in science is set in stone. Everything is disprovable if the right evidence is found. If something isn't disprovable, it's speculation, not science (though it may be related to science).

>Edgelord says that they do so that means that edgelord is just lying to win the argument right?

No, for the above stated reasons. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean someone's lying.


3bf76e No.10157

>>10156

>edgelord was arguing about the appropriateness of words, not trying to change definitions.

No he wasn't.

He was trying to change the defintion of parasite so he could justify abortion.

A fetus is literally a parasite.

No. As lawn mower man said the defintion is that the organism has to be from a different species.

>but when does the organic matter become a child?

If you payed attention to lawnmowermans argument, he says that the dictionary says that child means unborn baby.

>"Unborn child" is not a scientific term

Hello edgelord. Lawnmowerman already showed that it was a scientific and medical term.

>Everything is disprovable if the right evidence is found. If something isn't disprovable, it's speculation

If it's disprovable the it's not true.

>No, for the above stated reasons. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean someone's lying.

He has been caught contradicting hisself.


ecf522 No.10158

>>10157

>the defintion is that the organism has to be from a different species.

Depends on the definition.

>If you payed attention to lawnmowermans argument, he says that the dictionary says that child means unborn baby.

>Lawnmowerman already showed that it was a scientific and medical term.

>He has been caught contradicting hisself.

I didn't see there were any replies past the first two. I didn't notice the "1 reply" button until you referenced arguments in this post that weren't visible there. I'm reading through now.

>Hello edgelord.

Are you Lawnmowerman? Because that would be possible, since you brought a link to the posts here. Do you think edgelord is autistic enough to be looking for a reference to an argument on one site on other similar sites on the internet?

>If it's disprovable the it's not true.

No, that's not how that works. Gravity is disprovable because if somebody drops and object, but it doesn't fall, we can see that the theory of gravity must have something wrong with it. It's disprovable, but it hasn't been disproven. The strength of a theory is measured by how many chances there have been to disprove it without that happening. Nothing is ever certain in science as a matter of principle. That's just how it works.


3bf76e No.10159

>>10158

>Do you think edgelord is autistic enough to be looking for a reference to an argument on one site on other similar sites on the internet?

He is autistic enough to use google images as if it proves something.

>Gravity is disprovable because if somebody drops and object, but it doesn't fall, we can see that the theory of gravity must have something wrong with it.

That would mean that it's false. If gravity were true it would never do that.


ecf522 No.10162

>>10157

>Lawnmowerman already showed that it was a scientific and medical term.

>Medical Definition of CHILD

>1: an unborn or recently born person

>2: a young person especially between infancy and youth

This is just postponing the issue. At what point does the person appear? There's a point where there is a person and a point where there is not a person, so it has to get there at some time. These arguments are just playing with words though. Words are symbols that represent ideas that represent parts of reality. Arguing about definitions when the subject is a larger moral consideration is just spinning your wheels in the mud. Whether a fetus is a "child" is not relevant to whether abortion is moral. Whether something fits into a linguistic box doesn't affect what that thing is. I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of the argument because it just gets more pedantic from here.

>>10159

>That would mean that it's false. If gravity were true it would never do that.

Which is how we can be very confident that it's true. That's the closest we can get to completely sure of anything with science.

>He is autistic enough to use google images as if it proves something.

Both of the participants in that dialogue were arguing embarrassingly poorly.


3bf76e No.10163

>>10162

>I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of the argument because it just gets more pedantic from here.

Because you know he's right.

>Both of the participants in that dialogue were arguing embarrassingly poorly.

Explain


ecf522 No.10165

>Because you know he's right.

I don't care if he's right about an unimportant definition. It's an argument about the morality of abortion.

>Explain

They're getting hung up on linguistic technicalities and not arguing about the reality of the issue at all. None of the discussion is relevant. And on top of that, they're both using terrible sources for their arguments (Google Image Search, Dictionaries).


3bf76e No.10167

>>10165

>It's an argument about the morality of abortion.

Which we know is immoral


ecf522 No.10168

>Which we know is immoral

How?


3bf76e No.10169

>>10168

Because it's killing a baby


ecf522 No.10170

>>10169

What do you mean by "baby" and how do "we" know that killing one is immoral?


3bf76e No.10171

>>10170

So do you kill old people and ants?


ecf522 No.10172

>>10171

This isn't an answer to that question, and I don't see how it's relevant.


3bf76e No.10173

>>10172

You don't have respect for life just like many atheists.


ecf522 No.10174

>>10173

My respect for life or lackthereof has no bearing on rational arguments. Can you answer these questions or not? >>10170


3bf76e No.10175

>>10174

Lawnmowerman says it all.


ecf522 No.10177

>>10175

I already addressed the problems with those arguments.

1. Defining a child as a person of indeterminate development just postpones the issue of what beings we're actually talking about.

2. Nowhere is it explained why killing this vaguely defined being is immoral.


3bf76e No.10178

>>10177

Do you believe that murder is immoral?


ecf522 No.10179

>>10178

I don't believe in morals full stop. I think in terms of harm and benefit. Murder (the killing of a sapient being) is harmful, yes. You made a positive claim in stating abortion is immoral, though, meaning the burden of proof is with you to justify the claim. My views shouldn't be a factor in the logic (or illogic) of your views.


3bf76e No.10180

>>10179

>You made a positive claim in stating abortion is immoral, though, meaning the burden of proof is with you to justify the claim.

Nope, you said that it's not immoral. Burden of proof is on you.


ecf522 No.10181

>>10180

Denying that something is immoral is not a positive claim. If it was, then any action at all would be assumed immoral until properly justified.


3bf76e No.10182

You can't disprove anything that lawnmowerman said because he is right.


6d08d3 No.10183

>>10182

>society justifies abortion based on fetus' being "unable to care for themselves" or "parasitic".


ecf522 No.10184

>The server took too long to submit your post. Your post was probably still submitted. If it wasn't, 8chan might be experiencing issues right now – please try your post again later

damn it Hotwheels.

>>10182

I have asked very direct questions where I take issue with lawnmowerman's claims. You have failed to answer those questions. The burden of proof is on the party making the claims. If it's not possible to answer these questions, then it's not a question of disproving the claim; the claim can be neither proven nor disproven because it is simply incoherent, seeing as you and lawnmowerman won't define or refine otherwise vague terms.

see >>10177 >>10170


3bf76e No.10193

>>10184

>You have failed to answer those questions.

He does it for me.

>>10183

Exactly!


6d08d3 No.10194

>>10193

No. That's not Why.


3bf76e No.10201

>>10194

Yes it is.


d94f40 No.10207

>>10154

Whoever made this picture is deeply confused about postmodern deconstruction. Good intro to Derrida (the main deconstruction guy) can be found in Norman Melchert's book "The Great Conversation." Very readable intro to the history of Western philosophy.

Deconstruction and Continental philosophy in general are for the most part poorly written and confusing, so I don't blame anyone for misunderstanding them.


3bf76e No.10217

>>10207

>Good intro to Derrida (the main deconstruction guy) can be found in Norman Melchert's book "The Great Conversation." Very readable intro to the history of Western philosophy.

Hello, edgelord.


6d08d3 No.10218

>>10201

Everyone >justifies it differently, if at all… but it's more imporant how future possibilites are considered: why should they, what possibilites are ignored etc.


ecf522 No.10227

>>10217

If you keep seeing people disagree with you for similar reasons, you should probably at least try to understand their point of view, rather than assume it's one autistic motherfucker who not only tracked you to a different website, but is going to the trouble of spoofing IDs on a (probably) unfamiliar site.

>>10193

The questions I asked didn't even come up in that reply chain. What you've replied with have been nothing but dodges and changing the subject.

>>10193

The whole "it's parasitic so abortion is justified" meme is not something I've ever heard a real (vs. strawman) pro-choice person actually use to justify abortion. The reason I point out that fetuses really are parasitic is that the argument you're talking about (and making) rests on "debunking" that claim. It's a lot easier to argue facts than logic, especially with someone demonstrating incompetence with the latter.

Here are my reasons for being "pro-choice" (awful term for the position):

1. Children should have the right to not be forced into the care of people who don't want them. This alone does a huge amount of damage in the human sense (individual psychological impact and the resulting behavior toward other people) and economic sense (cost of treating psychological problems and fixing damage to other people and property). Sometimes, dead's better. And there's no better time than when your parent(s) already want you dead.

2. High birth rates are particularly a problem for poor people, who tend not to have access to education re: contraceptives and family planning or the resources to pursue adoption. Giving poor women control over whether they reproduce does wonders for reducing poverty. One, fewer people are born into poverty in the first place. Two, with fewer children to care for, already poor families have an easier time rising out of poverty.

3. Sometimes contraceptives fail, and there's no way to know until the woman is pregnant. Abortion (especially early-term) is a simple solution to this and blocking it is doing no good and plenty of harm. It's possible to catch a pregnancy well before it's even possible for the developing embryo/fetus to feel pain and to medically induce a miscarriage. We don't treat miscarriage as manslaughter, you know.

4. Everyone has ups and downs in their lives. Timing can be a very important factor in the environment and therefore wellbeing of a child. Terminating a pregnancy during rough economic times can give parents the opportunity to start having kids at a point when they're on better financial footing. Carrying a child to term during a time of economic hardship is going to add extra work with no monetary recompense, meaning the family will probably never recover to where they would otherwise. If you have two people (or commonly among the poor, a single mother) working as much as they can, they stand a much better chance of saving up money, paying off debts, and working their way to financial stability, from which point having a kid is much more responsible. If they have the kid while in the rut, they would be unlikely to ever make up the difference, due to time taken off from work to care for the baby and the added expenses of child care.

5. People should be able to control what happens to their bodies. Non-persons don't trump this. Personhood isn't something that humans have until quite a while after birth. Ergo, abortion should be an option as long as the fetus can't survive outside the womb. That's just a matter of practicality. A fetus doesn't have the right to continued residence in an unwilling host. If it could survive outside the womb, then inducing birth could be argued as a better option than abortion, but I think that's a separate moral/ethical question. If the human (not sure whether fetus/baby is more technically accurate) is outside the mother's body, it's no longer a concern of bodily autonomy.

6. You've already said you don't oppose this, but there are tons of people who think even medical reasons don't justify abortion. Even when it puts the mother's life at risk or both lives at risk and she already has children to take care of. So I thought I'd just add this for good measure. A lot of these problems can't even be identified until later on in a pregnancy, too. Some women already have the hard choice between aborting a fetus (that without the complications would be totally viable at that stage) or giving birth and letting the baby live in extreme pain and/or with a lot of drugs for an hour or so. Taking away the option to euthanize just removes the option to reduce everyone's pain.


6d08d3 No.10241

>>10227

Do you think someone opposed to abortion is likely to share those values?


ecf522 No.10316

>>10241

No, but I don't think they understand that I have them. I can at least explain my position to them so they understand why I disagree and why "but it's murder" isn't going to change that. Maybe next time they'll come back with an argument I haven't seen before.


2ea28c No.10318

The original reason I came to support abortion is because I am such an egalitarianist. I am pro free love, and I don't like the idea that only men can enjoy sex without serious consequences when there is a simple and cheap technological alternative. Rape, STDs, genetic diseases, a love for the forward-thinking eugenics of Sparta/Athens, and Atheism just bolster my main argument. Oh, and because fuck the moral guardians.




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