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/atheism/ - Atheism

The rejection of belief in the existence of deities

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File: 1441341704288-0.png (254.9 KB, 460x781, 460:781, 39kant-s[1].png)

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abbd60 No.10946

LOL you faggot actually believe in "logic" and "science"? I thought you were against dogmas.

It is uncertain if reality as perceived through our sensory organs(?) is true.

It is uncertain if logic (or: any coherent set of axioms), reason, and mathematics are true.

108f6b No.10947

>>10946

Everyone but the insane believe in logic.

If you don't believe A leads to B then you wouldn't do anything.

Our sense may be not perfect but if several senses of several people point in the same direction it may be more likely to be real.


abbd60 No.10948

>>10947

Logic cannot prove itself to be true, we have know way of knowing if it's true except from a metaphysical standpoint: study Gödel's incompleteness theorem:

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/search.php?req=Incompleteness+Theorem+V.+A.+Uspensky

>Our sense may be not perfect but if several senses of several people point in the same direction it may be more likely to be real.

This implies a perspective from outside of our sensory observations. Dogma much?


8eb220 No.10949

>>10948

And next I suppose you'll say the mathematical logic you were taught in primary school hasn't been proven empirically to be true? Don't trust Calculus, Geometry, or Algebra folks. Don't trust counting on your fingers either.


abbd60 No.10950

>>10949

2+2=4 is a social construct.


ab19ee No.10951

>>10948

So even if we accept the reasoning of Aquinas, he could still be wrong?


a6bfdf No.10953

>>10948

That exactly why philosophy has such a bad name. It's pointless wordfaggotry.

The picture of the world we have works. Maybe everything is an illusion but that doesn't matter because everything we do and see works like we would expect.

It's pragmatism not dogma.


144827 No.10954

>>10948

Then what are you getting at here?

Another statuefag-bait thread.

Sage and ignore.


a01797 No.10955

File: 1441379744322-0.jpg (809.21 KB, 2560x1536, 5:3, bertrand-russell-1951-014.jpg)

File: 1441379744324-1.jpg (27.78 KB, 488x444, 122:111, bertrand_russell_the_whole….jpg)

>>10946

it is uncertain whether truth exists at all. that doesn't mean your shitty god or religion is equally as good or as likely as science or math.

logic and mathematics only depend on some simple axioms like something not being true and false at the same time, etc. The Popperian scientists don't even assume science is a fact, yet science makes wonders and religions don't.

dogmatism means you accept something apologetically and refuse to abandon it in light of better explanations. If there are methods to derive or approach truth other than science and math I haven't heard of them. Let alone coming up with BETTER METHODS than science and math.

By the way, your mention of Godel's incompleteness theorem is terrible. You think you look smart because you can mention it to try to bootstrap your case, but anyone with more than a pop-sci understanding of logic or math can see how ridicule this is. this is no better than an appeal to authority.

SAGE goes in all fields because you are spamming the board with the same threads over and over


39597a No.10956

>>10946

>Our sensibility is the ability to sense things in the world.

That's called perception.

>Our understanding is the ability to think about thinks.

No, that's called intellect. Understanding is what you know about a system works and how things relate to each other.

>Space and time cannot be learned about through experience; they are intuitions of the mind.

Fucking what. First, those two descriptions are not mutually exclusive. Second, space and time can be learned about through experience because literally anything physically real at all can be learned about through experience and everything that is physical exists in and their behavior is in part a function of space and time.

>So a thing appears in space and time only insofar as it is sensed in our minds.

If this were true, a mind could never come into existence because there would be no mind to sense it. Reality is independent of our perception. We know this for certain because some discoveries have been made independently of each other. If reality didn't exist outside perception this could not happen because whatever there was to be discovered would not exist while it wasn't being sensed. The fact that reality doesn't change when we look away means that (although our sense of it is gone) it stays there. Fuck, most people learn this shit intuitively before they learn to speak.

>Concepts only apply to things insofar as they are sense by our minds

Holy shit, you got something right, if you phrased it far too specifically.

>A "thing-in-itself" (something considered exterior to our minds) may have nothing to do with space, time, or any of our concepts

This is just a consequence of the nonsense above. The only comment I can add is that the bullshit has piled up to the point now that without context, this statement is totally incoherent (and I can barely make out what it means even with context).

>"Things-in-themselves" are unknowable

If something is unknowable how can you know anything about it, including that it's unknowable and a "thing-in-itself".

>There are two worlds: the world of experience sensed by our bodies an the world as it is in itself.

This is also not wrong (except the experiential world is actually many worlds, one for each of us), but it doesn't follow from the above.

>It is uncertain if reality as perceived through our sensory organs(?) is true.

No it's not. We know that our perception is incomplete and we know that there are certain regular failures and more we don't know about.

>It is uncertain if logic (or: any coherent set of axioms), reason, and mathematics are true.

I need to break this down

>It is uncertain if logic is true

Assuming you mean valid (because otherwise the statement is incoherent), no it fucking isn't. Logic works by some inherent quality of reality, just like…

>It is uncertain if mathematics are true

Wrong. Math is logic applied to theoretical space.

>It is uncertain whether reason is true

Reason is just man's faculty for employing logic. Of course it's shit sometimes just like some people are cripples. Just because Hotwheels can't walk doesn't mean marathon runners aren't "true".

>logic (or: any coherent set of axioms)

Logic and axioms are two different things you fucking retard. You literally can not get any more basic than that when discussing logic. We are talking basic definitions here.


a1873a No.11010

>>10946

Logic, science, reason, and mathematics are the tools that have helped us build the most useful models of reality so that we can function and progress through it.

It's okay to appreciate that those things have a finite scope and that they are always works in progress that are still building on each other. It's unclear what you plan to accomplish by saying "well they aren't perfect so let's just ignore everything and be proud of our ignorance." I don't get how that benefits you or anyone else.


80843f No.11190

File: 1442127528989.jpg (103.93 KB, 630x354, 105:59, american-gigolo-richard-ge….jpg)

Atheist, but I agree with this. Logic is a shit


cd333d No.11201

File: 1442180114411.png (70.83 KB, 599x294, 599:294, 18300e222bee3362efed219255….png)

>>10946

Uncertainty is supposed to be accounted for in science. There's a reason we use stats.

Logic can exist without sensory inputs, it just needs to make sense upon inspection.

Look even if all what we sense is a grand illusion, I might as well use all the tools it offers to my advantage and to do that i need to start figuring out the mechanics of how it works. I don't know of another existence and I'm stuck in this one so might as well make the most of it.

>Godel's Incompleteness Theory

Yeah, which is accounted for now. You sound like you watched some bullshit on PBS and now feel you're an authority on this matter. Protip: you're not


8eb220 No.11250

File: 1442438983812.jpg (733.4 KB, 2560x1600, 8:5, image.jpg)

It's always troublesome arguing with the idea that, "What if our thoughts are connected and whatever we think becomes the basis of objective reality." I.e. If the majority of people believe the Earth is supported by elephants standing on a turtle, the universe changes and becomes that way to accomodate the thought.

Good luck reasoning with someone who readily believes in Neon Genesis Evangelion quackery. Carl Jung is in my mind suspect.

https://8ch.net/christ/res/1734.html#q6244


bc9595 No.11253

>>11250

How can thoughts be real if our turtles aren't real?


a1873a No.11271

>>11253

I thought the relevant meme was "it's turtles all the way down."


dacf70 No.12525

>>11250

I blame Plato. He obviously was a smart guy, but after all these millennia his shitty metaphysical assumptions are still at the philosophical basis of the demons hunting this world




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