/atheism/ - Atheism

I talk to my cat who vocalizes back, and my dog recognizes certain words. The evolution of speech isnt unique to us. What does this have to do with atheism?

>>11853

Thinly disguised "x is too complex/useless for evolution" thread.

>>11857

>more information

As in things that supposedly don't exist :^)

>unity

*Utility, as in usefulness

>>11867

Cute, but Koko doesn't seem to be refering to anything beyond his immediate senses :^)

>>11909

I don't grasp what you are saying?

Information does not exist.

Those berries are not poisonous?

There is not a lion behind you?

Relaying that information is not valuable?

Receiving that information about the lion or the berries is not useful?

>>11851

Language is a tool for survival. When you "abuse signifiers" you're doing as governments and other social entities do, you're deceiving your opponent to outflank them verbally or otherwise. I mentioned them before but I'd recommend some Machiavelli and Sun Tzu rather than a bible, quran, or whatever holy text you have that wants you to do something that's not in your best interests. Your best interests are learning the language of man and how it works to deceive, achieve, etc. Love and kindness only go so far and you can be sure higher order entities like governments don't just rely on it to maintain geographic integrity.

And you're probably thinking as I did when I was a theist, that the world seems less kind when you don't believe in a holy man to take care of you. Yes, that's the way the world can be and when you overcome your need for shelter, you learn to deal with the world as is, not as a world of gods willing to cradle you in times of need. And the best you can do is to use the utilities you have to execute your own version of "good" for you and others when possible. You should never count on gods to save you from your misdeeds or ignorance as you should never put all your eggs in one basket.

>Wouldn't the ability to falsely signal hamper the utility of symbolic complexity?

You seem like you just found a thesaurus. But no, the utility of language is not just lovey bullshit for us to all get along, it's survival. False signaling, abusing identifiers, or whatever your thesaurus wants to call it now, is all a product of man's survival mechanisms.

Machiavelli does help you understand real politics, and once you read it you'll never trust a politician again.

A man eats man philosophy is terrible to actually possess though. Makes you fee l empty, heartless and not genuine.

>Wouldn't the ability to falsely signal hamper the utility of symbolic complexity?

Well, does it? Do you feel like shutting up forever rather than talking to people anymore because they can lie?

>>11929

I haven't investigated ravens but sometimes lying and deceit do favor the hosts that make use of those utilities. It's just another tool in the shed that nations and man use to survive. Deceit, intelligence, physical power, financial power, social power (kindness, humor, etc), they're all tools that can be used to achieve goals. I'm not one to say 'this tool works better' for life but to be intellectually honest and sincere to people, I'd tell them to use what they have at their disposal that they're best at to help them survive because life, frankly, is a bitch and it's willing to fuck you over any time you bend over. I won't ever tell anyone I love that deceit doesn't pay but I will likely tell them that honesty is a safer bet if they can be easily outwitted.

I'd rather us only use the language of love but that's not realistic. There will be a niche in the system for the one who deceives and sometimes you have to speak the language of your enemy to deflect their attacks which might include deceit. Learning and using tactics like that are the same as studying and using the martial arts of your enemies; something that may be necessary for survival.

>>11941

I kind of agree. It's like gaming or sports. When you get bigger, things get more competitive and more shallow as it's only for a score, a number and not for the fun of it anymore. But such is life. Some are content in being casuals, some not so. At some point though when doing it long enough you eventually have to play with the big boys because otherwise things being to feel incestual, you're playing the same game, same level, it gets boring and you're going nowhere.

When you study geopolitics, morality, how nations play and how people really play when the chips are down, you realize the validity in "man eats man". Sometimes animals have to die for you to have a meal. Sometimes you have to push people out of a position (job) for you to take that position if your welfare and those you love depend on it. There's many ways I've had to harden myself up in life to adjust and there's just no way about it, you're going to be hurt and you'll eventually hurt others no matter what you do. And the best you can do is to do well and wish well for others but look out for yourself also.

Pardon me while I express my euphoria for a bit if it offends theists here but I do feel like I'm playing the game of life in casual mode when I'm browsing /christian/ and /muslim/, the rare times I do.

>>11851

In the real world you don't get to kill everyone who found out that you lied. That means that people can know, remember, and share who the liars are and take steps to prevent themselves from getting deceived further.

>>12045

But the liar can can move to a place where no one knows he is a liar or a murderer. Become a Cain, without an identifying mark.

>>11856

>n the beginning was the Word

I'm just starting the thread from the top in tree mode, but I see someone below has already mentioned prairie dogs. The bible doesn't account for stuff like that, but those little critters communicate very descriptively. Dolphins probably do too, but I'm unaware of such research atm. I've gotta search for more info myself

>>11909

>Cute, but Koko doesn't seem to be refering to anything beyond his immediate senses :^)

not in this example, but she can do it incontrovertibly. why wouldn't an animal with memory be capable of bringing it back to express something it is not experiencing at the moment?

she has told her keepers about the death of her mother, probably killed by a hunter.

she also makes wishes and refers to people not present in the conversation (third parties) all the time.

How about bees? They have ridiculously tiny brains but they can still communicate the location of food via a dance. And then you have ants…

>>11867

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/08/koko_kanzi_and_ape_language_research_criticism_of_working_conditions_and.html

Sounds a lot like Clever Hans, and researchers interpreting whatever they want.

Question: What are the names of your kittens? (and dogs?)

LiveKOKO: foot

Patterson: Foot isn't the name of your kitty

Question: Koko, what's the name of your cat?

LiveKOKO: no

Patterson: She just gave some vocalizations there… some soft puffing

[chat host]: I heard that soft puffing!

Patterson: Now shaking her head no.

Question: Do you like to chat with other people?

Koko: fine nipple

Patterson: Nipple rhymes with people, she doesn’t sign people per se, she was trying to do a ‘sounds like…’

>>12058

Wow, that's retarded.

Anyway even if they could train an ape to speak then that doesn't mean these animals do it in the wild.

>>12059

people have observed trained apes teaching sign language to other apes for themselves