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The rejection of belief in the existence of deities

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File: 1446775833863.jpg (113.4 KB, 750x751, 750:751, priest.jpg)

9d6ad9 No.12375

How can anyone actually be a Christian?

If I where convinced that Christianity where real it would be horrifying. Think about it, billions of people are probably going to hell. Unless you take a very modern and liberal interpretation of the bible, witch to be honest is due to modern religious pluralistic societies, not the most natural reading of the bible.

Nowadays pretty much everyone has at least one friend or relative who is a non Christian and they are probably going to hell. How could you sleep at night knowing they are probably going to suffer forever. Not to mention why would a Christian ever do anything other spread the gospels. It is a massive waste of time and the only rational act would be to preach to you drop. Anything else is a waste of time when you consider that fact that the rewards or punishments last forever, all earthly activity is just a distraction.

98c336 No.12377

Infinite punishment for petty finite crimes. That's the kind of crap you end up endorsing if you're indoctrinated enough.


768b74 No.12378

With a resurgence in right-wing thought you can see from the influence of /pol/, many people will view Christianity as the safeguard against decadent modern society and cling to it, and it is happening to plenty of people here on 8chan. I'm a part of that resurgence but I prefer Nietzche and the Ancient Greco-Romans over Christianity.

And to answer your question, they go on with the hope that they can convert you eventually. But aside from that, I have no idea. I've thought about that often.


bed771 No.12382

>>12378

Where is this resurgence coming from. I think it has always been there, but you've simply sought it out.


63177e No.12384

File: 1446802752927.jpg (18.54 KB, 644x362, 322:181, risitas-apple-dos--644x362.jpg)

>>12378

>hates jews

>worships dead kike on a stick

>mfw everytime

oan pomos are regressive and need to be dealt with just like christards, muslims, etc


f4cf51 No.12386

>>12375

The trick to becoming a Christian is early childhood indoctrination.

The trick to staying a Christian is not thinking about it very much.

It's mostly about turning up on Sunday, sleep walking through a ritual, and leaving a donation.

In return for this continued patronage, during a crisis a member of the clergy will turn up to hold your hand, you can use the church building for special occasions, and when you die someone will show up, stand right next to your corpse and tell people you aren't really dead.


7afa34 No.12398

Im an adventist , we dont believe in that hell.

Since this post could be considered "Christians shilling their magic wizard" then I invite you to join us at >>>/christ/ if you dont want to have the conversation here.


9d6ad9 No.12401

>>12398

How do you come to this conclusion?


f4cf51 No.12402

File: 1446924578857.gif (457.58 KB, 393x373, 393:373, fight club gif.gif)

>>12398

Dang.. You get around don't you. Maybe even more than I do.

Every board I've wandered onto I see that invite.

Are you me? Do I have Christian Tyler Durden alter-ego? Have I been posting in my sleep?


0c8566 No.12403

>>12401

Well, most of the threads in the catalogaare about christianity, and I'm sure some of you are tired of christians coming over here proselytizing.

I do maybe I jump to far there.

>>12402

We r leejun we forgive spek us


3f7579 No.12409

>>12375

>How could you sleep at night knowing they are probably going to suffer forever

this produces the reverse effect. instead of feeling contempt for religious claims existing believers see them as a very good reason to convert everyone to their religion.


3f7579 No.12410

>>12398

>we dont believe in that hell

what does a purposely stretchable made-up religious concept like hell mean to you? Joy?

what meaning of hell are you refuting? I don't see any poster alluding to some kind of hell, they just talked about hell without even describing it.


7afa34 No.12422

>>12410

the conscious torment for ever? thats what most people mean when they say hell

Adventist believe that hell is just unconscious death for ever, literally how atheist see death.


92a2a5 No.12435

Exactly. This is one of my biggest gripes with Christianity. And what annoys me is that even a lot atheists don't mention this when they criticize Christians. Which is weird because the concept of eternal damnation is clearly totally unjust. In fact, that's one of the main things that made me question my faith when I was younger.


9d6ad9 No.12448

>>12435

Well, I always feel like when some Christian says Atheist are too edgy/combative/aggressive, is that your the won who worships a God who says he is going to through me in a lake of fire, can you blame me for a little upset?


58d02f No.12451

>>12435

Probably because if you accuse any of god's actions of being good or bad you get to have a metaphysical ethics debate where the christian will espouse an oddly nihilist viewpoint and insist that it's the only one possible under atheism. Nevermind the thousands of years of ethical philosophy done without gods and especially not the christian one.

Everyone from the wacky Ken Ham to the well respected WLC believes this argument.


f4cf51 No.12491

>>12422

aren't the Adventists the people who believe only a 100,000 or so people get to go Heaven?

Shit, if I believed that I'd just give up. Out of the Billions of People alive and all the people who lived before it's pretty likely the quota has been filled.


7afa34 No.12504

>>12491

no m8

we believe that the actually 144000 will the christians alived at the time of Jesus 2nd coming.


bd24a3 No.12870

>>12451

Either that, or they'll just say that justice comes from God, and therefore, by the definition of justice, everything God does is just. The amount of mental gymnastics that Christians have to do in order to avoid blatant contradictions in their beliefs never ceases to amaze me.

>>12448

Exactly, it's so ridiculous. Like there's the big man upstairs who's condemning more than half of the human population to eternal hellfire and torture, and then there's me who's just pointing out that God's kind of a fucking dick, and they act like I'm the bad guy!


0c940b No.12917

File: 1449530316166.jpg (69.48 KB, 550x733, 550:733, YEC_Doge.jpg)

This sounds more like

>How can anyone be a protestant

than anything else. The apostolic traditions stress mystery more, and the fact that its not for people to be judging and declaring who is in hell or heaven for that matter save for very few people. This whole "your friend is going to hell because he is a faggot/doesn't live this one law" is a protestant phenomenon. Restorationist tend to have a different outlook on that stuff as well, and Mormonism doesn't even have a hell like the rest.

>inb4 the catholics on 8chan are huge cunts

Yeah, but that doesn't change the theology.


1179f1 No.12950

>>12382

it's a reaction to socjus


638951 No.12969

File: 1449675257383.jpg (163.38 KB, 780x770, 78:77, h3DcUjW[1].jpg)

Christianity strikes me as childishly hyperbolic.

>>12377

>Infinite punishment for petty finite crimes.

Like this for instance. It's basically an extension of God's character. Like Carlin pointed out, he's all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, all-loving, but he'll send you to hell forever if you step out of line. Honestly it sounds like terrible fanfiction. And if you think about it, that's really what it is. The Bible itself (at least the old testament) is a compilation of various myths cobbled together into one superGod. And then all the religious denominations are little pockets of people who believe in these different fan versions of the story.

Pic related.


2aa72b No.12973

File: 1449677382546.jpg (125.06 KB, 800x533, 800:533, moses-giving-aaron-the-pri….jpg)

>>12969

Well, just look at the source material and it makes some more sense.

According to their own history, and probably somewhat close to how things actually happened (remove mysticism), the whole "ti-for-tat" stuff starts with the Tabernacle, where the priests (Moses) tell the people "Ok, yeah, I am your leader and God told me, seriously, God told me these are the rules you have to obey. We are a nomadic people trying to conquer a land so things are going to be pretty black and white. For certain crimes, just give me- er, God, some food and he'll call it about even. For serious shit we'll just kill you because we can't afford to keep someone alive, fed and watched in this current setting."

And it all evolves out of, what seems to me, a perfectly reasonable lie that ancient tribal leaders used to justify their decisions to their subjugates.


bd24a3 No.12975

>>12917

I think the Catholic church is more liberal about that stuff now because if they weren't everyone would leave the church, but I think if you went back in time 200 years ago and asked a Catholic priest if homosexuals are going to burn in hell forever, they'd definitely say yes. I think most Catholics assume that in the past, the church was just as liberal as it is now, and I think that's just false. Take papal infallibility for example. Nowadays, Catholics are taught that papal infallibility doesn't mean that the everything the Pope says is correct, but rather that everything the pope says regarding faith and morals ex cathedra is correct. But I highly doubt that that's what was taught to Catholics 500 years ago. I think in the past, Catholics were taught that papal infallibility meant that everything the pope says is correct.


2aa72b No.12976

File: 1449678702334.png (113.51 KB, 550x397, 550:397, Anne_Frank_Saved_from_Hell….png)

>>12975

I'd be very inclined to agree with you. The prime directive, of every single faith, is its own preservation, and what is in actuality unchangeable dogma is ultimately determined by whether you can remove it and have people still believe in it. This is why even doomsday cults which have a specific date sometimes stick around for a while.

>"No,no, wait! I know I said May 23rd 2012, but if you look at the scriptures in Coptic, it turns out the Egyptians understood it better and the actual end is on this date (insert date)

This is for sure what has happened to Catholicism, which use to be super powerful and super influential, and also to Judaism, and Protestanism, and Mormonism, and Eastern Orthodoxy and to a lesser extend to Islam.


bd24a3 No.12980

>>12976

I agree. And I think it's interesting how even though religions change their doctrines all the time, they usually manage to convince their followers that their religion has been one-hundred percent correct from the very beginning and hasn't changed a bit. Catholics do this kind of thing a lot.

Also, I'm glad you mentioned Eastern Orthodoxy too, because as of late there seem to be a lot of hip orthodox converts in the West trying to market Orthodox Christianity as the "Buddhism of Christianity", so to speak. I've actually heard a lot of them use that phrase. These people often claim that Orthodox Christianity is more pure, restorationist and philosophical than the Catholic church, and also far less corrupt. Athough I know very little about Eastern Christianity and the history of Eastern Europe in general, I have no doubt in my mind that the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church is pretty sordid too. Also, I think it would be hard to argue that the Orthodox Church is more philosophical than the Catholic church considering all of the contributions Catholics have made to philosophy, and considering all of the famous Catholic philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas. In addition, I'm pretty sure the Eastern Orthodox Church cooperated with the Catholic Church in the repression of Arianism.


0c940b No.12987

File: 1449694506535.jpg (147.93 KB, 597x885, 199:295, Orthodox_Tank.jpg)

>>12980

I mean, the thing with Eastern Orthodoxy is that, for a westerner, it can have different levels or approaches, many very shallow. You could approach it a more traditional, conservative type of Christianity because being in the East it hasn't been challenged nearly as much by secularism (and I mean in an effective way, not the Stalin-Hoxha method). If you're an ethnic slav, you can "connect with your roots", as Eastern Orthodoxy is solidly segregated among ethnic divisions. Then there's the fact that Eastern Orthodoxy is far more mystical and lacks the scholastic approach of Roman Catholicism, relying more on mystery, mysticism and feelings. Yes, the fact that they don't even attempt to prove their beliefs with some semblance of science unlike Catholics is actually seen as a positive by some people. So Catholics have philosophers and scientists, Orthodoxy has mystics.

Its also more edgy and contrarian for a westerner at least (I'm sure little 13 year old Russian boys dread getting up early to go to divine liturgy almost as much as little hispanic catholic boys dread mass).

Still, they look bad ass and are more likely to get involved with weaponry, violence and political strife.


24a7c1 No.14039

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>12375

>If I where convinced that Christianity where real it would be horrifying. Think about it, billions of people are probably going to hell.

As a life-long atheist looking into converting to Christianity, yes, it is completely fucking terrifying. What's more even as a devout Christian the odds are stacked against you. At least that's how I read Matthew 7:13-14, comparing the many who go to hell and the few who go to heaven.

>Unless you take a very modern and liberal interpretation of the bible, witch to be honest is due to modern religious pluralistic societies, not the most natural reading of the bible.

That would for me completely defeat its purpose, since I would be in it for the system of justice and morality, not to get a fuzzy warm feeling on Sunday mornings. I find utilitarianism and moral relativism distasteful, I don't feel quite euphoric enough to simply declare that my morality is the true morality because I'm enlightened by my intelligence, and I haven't been able to make a case for natural law within the framework of atheism (if anyone can refute any of these the input would be appreciated, it would save me a lifetime of grief). Christianity provides both for the existence of natural law (the Father) and a way for redemption (the Son), at the cost that I no longer get to have an opinion on what is right or wrong (no more fapping, sex outside of marriage, etc.)

>Nowadays pretty much everyone has at least one friend or relative who is a non Christian and they are probably going to hell. How could you sleep at night knowing they are probably going to suffer forever.

Certainly not without actively evangelizing them, putting myself in really uncomfortable positions as that one insufferable prick who goes around talking about Jesus all the time.

>Not to mention why would a Christian ever do anything other spread the gospels. It is a massive waste of time and the only rational act would be to preach to you drop. Anything else is a waste of time when you consider that fact that the rewards or punishments last forever, all earthly activity is just a distraction.

Not necessarily spread the gospel all the time, but certainly spending hours every day praying and going to mass. It will amount to several years of my life that I would otherwise spend doing other things. But it would be an inevitable consequence of accepting the base proposition that Christianity is true. Doing that but then only following the feel-good parts (and if you read the Bible there is practically no feel-good stuff to be found, but a lot of suffering and grief, the valley of tears) would defeat the entire purpose of looking to it for justice. It would be intellectually dishonest, not to mention damnable.


ca91ce No.14040

>>14039

>As a life-long atheist looking into converting to Christianity

Loser.


ca91ce No.14041

>>14039

>natural law

you really are an idiot


a12002 No.14044

>>14039

I don't think you were ever an atheist if you're thinking of converting. That's like going from believing in Santa as a kid, then not believing, then believing as an adult. (Yes, Santa was a real person with myth behind him just like Jesus) For me, I had to spend years testing my beliefs before I considered myself an atheist; not just something I said by default because that's shallow. But shallow also are the ones who say they believe in gods without actually testing themselves and their faith if you can be broken easily. I can't see myself ever believing in a god again unless I had a concussion or went senile.

> I find utilitarianism and moral relativism distasteful, I don't feel quite euphoric enough to simply declare that my morality is the true morality because I'm enlightened by my intelligence, and I haven't been able to make a case for natural law within the framework of atheism (if anyone can refute any of these the input would be appreciated, it would save me a lifetime of grief).

I don't see it that way because it's "distasteful" or hurts me or helps me, it is what it is because it's truth. Different people have different morals, there's no getting around it. And no one here's saying their moral code is the true moral code, yet you claim we view morality as relative so you seem to be giving conflicting opinions. If you take the case for natural law, it would be the law that follows society and that seems to be of a utilitarian sort, not something tryhards try to inflict on society based on some supernatural deity they think talks to them to tell them what people need to be doing.

You're trying to squeeze lemonade from a raisin. You think you can get something more from life by joining this cult or that cult when you probably just need friends, family, a hobby and fulfilling people and situations in your life. It doesn't have to be of the supernatural kind. I see an unfulfilling life in cooking but my wife loves to cook. A fulfilling and wholesome life doesn't have to involve gods. We have within us something like a bios, a primal system what tells us what's wrong or right that a lot of us try to stay in tune with. Maybe it's from an ultimate programmer, maybe not, nobody knows but if there were an ultimate programmer, I feel he's someone that's secure enough he doesn't worry about having to be worshipped and his message strong enough within us that it doesn't need nurtured all the time. Being happy is the hardest part of life, enjoy it, don't worry so much.


a12002 No.14045

>>14039

Also, ignore the other guy.


24a7c1 No.14046

File: 1455328721111.png (340.25 KB, 1454x993, 1454:993, 1365528633000.png)

>>14040

>>14041

I've run out of arguments against all the degeneracy that don't require me to invoke natural law. I used to rely on the social conventions of high culture dictating right and wrong, but this is a highly unstable proposition, now that it's been more or less completely supplanted by pop culture and the entertainment industry, and look at the kind of example the new upper class, the celebrities, are setting with their sex tapes, drug taking and infidelity, not to mention that one pervert transvestite being called "woman" of the year.

You having to resort to ad-hominems rather than come up with an alternative solution only further suggests that atheism is philosophically and morally bankrupt.


98c336 No.14047

>>14046

>Morally bankrupt

Atheism never had a position on morals in the first place.


a12002 No.14048

>>14046

> I used to rely on the social conventions of high culture dictating right and wrong

You're a kid, you're lost, that's your issue. Kids are always searching for someone to follow to show them the way while at the same time trying to rebel. Think for yourself what's right or wrong for you. You, like a me and a lot of others, get offended easily and want to find a route where you think is easiest or possibly the most rebellious. I was a christian, a KKK affiliate, I've been there. There's this ugliness inside us all that gets offended when we see what we think is weakness. As Rummie would say, "weakness is provocative" and creates anger. Sometimes it's not them, it's you with the anger issues and you with the improper tolerances toward faults. I had the same intolerance and the worry consumed me. I consider myself a much more moral man than when I was a christian and most of my friends would say so also.

And of course atheism is by its very nature morally corrupt, it's the atheists themselves that hold the moral positions. Also it's not philosophically bankrupt, in itself. Many philosophers consider it just as valid as theism.


a12002 No.14049

>>14048

Edit: morally bankrupt. Corrupt would imply there's that atheism implies some sort of moral code.

Also, if you're looking to atheism for moral guidance, you're doing it wrong. You can look to fellow atheists if you just ask but atheism is simply about not believing, that's what all of us have in common. Anything more is not directly related to atheism.


a12002 No.14050

>>14049

Also my grammar is shit tonight. I need some sleep.


3181f5 No.14051

>>12398

Good sabbath. I spend (or used to spend) a fair bit of time lurking/shadow posting on /christian/; what's the story with /christ/?


9d6ad9 No.14052

File: 1455331156064.jpg (7.5 KB, 225x224, 225:224, download (3).jpg)

>>14046

>I've figured out how morality really works!


3181f5 No.14053

>>14046

I think you may be confusing "atheism" with that poorly-understood strawman thing that gets put up on small-minded American Christian popular news websites. Dem atheersts


24a7c1 No.14054

>>14044

>I don't think you were ever an atheist if you're thinking of converting. That's like going from believing in Santa as a kid, then not believing, then believing as an adult. (Yes, Santa was a real person with myth behind him just like Jesus) For me, I had to spend years testing my beliefs before I considered myself an atheist; not just something I said by default because that's shallow. But shallow also are the ones who say they believe in gods without actually testing themselves and their faith if you can be broken easily. I can't see myself ever believing in a god again unless I had a concussion or went senile.

Maybe. As a kid I sort of assumed a lot of things were against the law of the land, that would have been illegal before we got separation of church and state, but was long since made legal, in spite of growing up in an atheist home where nobody ever explicitly spoke against these things. Does that count? When I learned what atheism was in my early teens I saw that I fit the description perfectly. I joined the Brights movement and disavowed any sort of belief that couldn't be verified empirically. I also got quite interested in social justice.

>You're trying to squeeze lemonade from a raisin. You think you can get something more from life by joining this cult or that cult when you probably just need friends, family, a hobby and fulfilling people and situations in your life.

Perhaps this is true. I'm a bit tired of being in my 30s and still having just a bunch of manchildren for friends (and being one). The thing is, even my workmates are manchildren. Men with wives, children, well-paying jobs, but absolutely insufferable. I was very active with the hacker movement, as a matter of fact I found the cheetos dust neckbeards types far more respectable than anyone else I've met, too bad they get so much unwarranted disrespect. But that got taken over by the "women in tech" movement, and seeing social justice warriors up close and personal rather than supporting them from a distance made me change opinion on that.

>It doesn't have to be of the supernatural kind. I see an unfulfilling life in cooking but my wife loves to cook. A fulfilling and wholesome life doesn't have to involve gods. We have within us something like a bios, a primal system what tells us what's wrong or right that a lot of us try to stay in tune with.

Isn't that essentially what natural law is? Or it could be pure evolutionary psychology, in which case I'd have to keep myself from committing the appeal to nature fallacy, especially considering our environment now definitely being different from the one that sense would have evolved in. With society changing dramatically over one or two generations would leave too little time for the genetics to adapt.

>Maybe it's from an ultimate programmer, maybe not, nobody knows but if there were an ultimate programmer, I feel he's someone that's secure enough he doesn't worry about having to be worshipped and his message strong enough within us that it doesn't need nurtured all the time.

That seems like an imprudent assumption to me.

>>14048

Perhaps, only I feel like I should have grown out of that and settled in the normie life by now. Maybe it's just a premature mid-life crisis.

>>14049

>Also, if you're looking to atheism for moral guidance, you're doing it wrong. You can look to fellow atheists if you just ask but atheism is simply about not believing, that's what all of us have in common.

Sure, that's for granted. It's just that I'm getting a sneaking suspicion there might be an objective morality, and that position seems absolutely indefensible if I am to remain an atheist.

>>14053

How so? I'm not American, so I wouldn't know.


a12002 No.14055

>>14054

> appeal to nature fallacy

There's something inside us all that tells us what we think is right or wrong naturally and if that's what you consider natural law, so be it, it's something we all have and it's not a fallacy. But just like the bios analogy, sometimes we can use our upper level programming to over-ride that when we sense the primal programming isn't relevant anymore. It's a more complex world these days and it calls for more high-level thinking and adaptation. Trying to join cults where they dwell more on the primal is not the answer, it'll only hold you back and try to force you into situations that just aren't compatible with the world now. We have to get rid of the notion that we know what's right for everyone. I, like you, sometimes feel like I want to control everyone and how they act, for the greater good. But the world isn't as culturally and genetically homologous as it once was, we have more people going many different places, doing more things and the old ways just don't work anymore, nor should they. Also forcing people into doing what we think is "good" for everyone is not good. We've grown up as a species and if we don't look out for ourselves and this world, we'll have to rely on technology to take care of us and maybe one day have to escape this world and it won't happen using the old ways. I think religion losing significance in this day and age is a sign of maturity as a species, that it's our time to let that go and move on. To me, if there ever was an ultimate programmer, it's him letting us know it's time to bootstrap the high-level OS. There may be some bugs in the initial transition but we'll get through it as it has a natural error correction mechanism.


a12002 No.14056

>>14055

>homogeneous

I really need to start proof-reading before I reply.


bed771 No.14057

>>14051

>what is the story behind /christ/

A group of the most active and long-term christians got tired of being banned so they made a board with more lenient moderation




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