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/atheism/ - Atheism

The rejection of belief in the existence of deities

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File: 1448364506257.jpeg (353.3 KB, 418x700, 209:350, image.jpeg)

316422 No.12677

Post if you wish.

>>>/objectivism/

0a5b8f No.12678

File: 1448379918235.png (1 MB, 2048x1536, 4:3, image.png)

You're a real disciple of Ayn Rand. Emotional music is bad except for sentimental Russian melodies she liked as a kid, which are objectively speaking superb. Anyone who disagrees and prefers Bach, Mozart or Beethoven is an irrational heretic to be silenced.

Ayn Rand is the greatest and smartest woman who ever lived, there is no way she could ever be a dilettante and speak out of her ass.


34fdaa No.12681

>>12678

I did not even mention music anywhere on the board.

Also, she never spoke without thinking about it first.


75af13 No.12687

File: 1448425469273.jpg (42.83 KB, 432x415, 432:415, Heavy Randi Guy.jpg)

How's trying to convince people that menstral blood smeared on a canvas isn't art working out for ya?


0a5b8f No.12692

Premises 2-4 in your sticky are fallacious or contain non-sequiturs.

1.

>Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

Granted, although technically any models in your mind are subjective.

2

>Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

How about instinct that is learned or biological? Shared sentimentality is another basic tool or strategy for survival, the same as reason.

3

>Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

It doesn't follow that my highest purpose in life is to be as selfish as I want. Perhaps I would feel happier sacrificing myself for a worthy cause?

Q: Selfishness is objectively speaking, the highest purpose for all according to who?

A: Ayn Rand.

4

>The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit.

So when an unfortunate and indebted persons have no choice but to sell their bodies to labor if they are to survive, Ayn Rand doesn't think they're slaves, or there is an oppressor? She thinks they should still feel happy because they're equals? I feel like she's plagiarizing another philosopher in the 2nd setence rather poorly, and coming to the opposite conclusion. I think his name was Karl Marx.

>It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders.

Sounds utopian, and history has not endeared itself to good behavior under laissez-faire.

>In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

Granted, but only because full capitalism is by definition a separation between state and economy. The argument doesn't do a good job of proving laissez-faire is a better economic system, or refuting arguments for a less extreme system of "do-nothing" management.


a93d71 No.12693

>>12692

>any models are subjective

only if you refuse to choose a base first. If that base is a true that is irrevocably true, then your model can be objective.

For example, if you are learning math, then you know that 1+1=2. If you take that as your base, then you are correct.

>instics that are innate or biological

You have no instincts.

>shared sentimentality

This means following the group without any reason, and feeling the same way they do, just because they do. That is completely irrational, and is not correct. You can not claim both rationality and irrationality are correct.

You don't need to hunt in jungles anymore. Reason is still the best way.

>sacrificing myself for a worth cause

You own life and upholding it is the highest value possible to you. If you think that you wish to donate, or work for something that you like, voluntarily, and if it brings you happiness, then it is selfish, because it is in your own self-interest. But, if you present contradictory evidences, if you see that being selfish in the short term leads to a loss, a loss that you would not want in the long term, then you are not being selfish at all.

>they have to sell away their bodies

what is money? They aren't slaves, they're getting paid. Capitalism does not enslave a man, it frees him.

The situation you presented is possible only in a system where money is controlled by an external agency that steals it. Money becomes ineffective and not a tool, but a knife in the back for a man as soon as he claims it without earning it.

>still feel happy because they are equals

Equals to whom? Capitalism does not say every man will hold equal wealth.

>Society has not endeared itself to good behaviour under lasseiz-faire capitalism

There never has been any point in history where lasseiz-faire capitalism was in practice.

>The argument

Read a book.


0a5b8f No.12694

File: 1448443326744.jpeg (90.82 KB, 640x360, 16:9, image.jpeg)

>>12693

>Read a book.

I used to think Objectivists were to Libertarians what communists are to socialists: an embarrassment. I stand mistaken, because you've shown arguing with Objectivists is always irrational. I mean, all would be revealed in bright light if I just read her bible instead of weighing her axioms. How silly of me to trust my own critical thinking, when I haven't even been taught how to think critically by Ayn Rand. I've been an uncritical fool ever since I visited /atheism/ but I will give your philosophy a chance because I like when people use the word rational.

And "voluntary capitalism" sounds so cool too! Oh…I shouldn't use exclamation marks, because that's not being rational. Damn….wait, I shouldn't swear either, but I'm sure that gets easier with the right mental training. Learning this philosophy must have been hard work for you too. But it pleases me that only the most rational people in society will lead the dumb people.


a93d71 No.12695

>>12694

I told you to read a book because the complete argument was not in the sticky. It would be too long for it.


4db43a No.12701

File: 1448482043193.jpg (27.99 KB, 300x300, 1:1, Wonka.jpg)

>>12677

>Claims laissez-faire capitalism is the best political-economic system

>Describes an ideal system that isn't laissez-faire capitalism


13d32c No.12702

>>12701

Can you read?


ac90d2 No.12710

File: 1448534534560.jpg (17.01 KB, 212x294, 106:147, The Seuss is loose.jpg)

>The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism.

Bullshit. There's no ideal system. Everything has benefits and drawbacks, many of which depend on the culture of the people under its influence.

>It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit.

Pure rhetorical nonsense. Fuck off this board with your pseudo-religion.

>It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others.

In a laissez-faire system, what is to stop someone from doing any of these things? Do you not know what laissez-faire means?

>The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights;

This is merely defining the what. The how is the important part, and the part where people tend to disagree.

>it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders.

So it's powerless to prevent the kind of actions you describe above.

>no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force

>no man may initiate the use of physical force against others

Except the state only retaliates, meaning it cannot prevent this, only respond to it after the fact.

Objectivists are a special kind of retarded.

This is beyond full retard.

This is…

Ü B E R T A R D


fc2b01 No.12714

>>12710

It's not a "Psuedo-Religion". If the words don't make sense to you, it is not my problem.

The police and the courts are run by the government, and are for protection of private and property rights.

>powerless

Pre-emptive action is not restricted. If someone made a cartel that hasn't done anything yet, or someone set up a gang, they would be apprehended by the police and/or the courts.

Read a book first. You've been posting stupid questions that clearly show your lack of understanding. You don't even know what it means, and are just going by the sticky.


4c8d40 No.12715


0a5b8f No.12716

File: 1448612437889.jpg (41.03 KB, 325x496, 325:496, url.jpg)

>>12714

>It's not a "Psuedo-Religion".

>If the words don't make sense to you, it is not my problem.

>Read a book first.

>You've been posting stupid questions that clearly show your lack of understanding.

>You don't even know what it means, and are just going by the sticky.

I had already heard Ayn Rand was a silly contrarian bitch, but I've learned the true meaning of "Objectionism" from you. Tell me more about ubertardism. If she wanted to free us from falling into the evil Communist trap, why does all the art look so Communist?


3994bf No.12717

File: 1448622645751.webm (1.06 MB, 640x360, 16:9, 1448174397702.webm)

Oh look more butthurt over Ayn Rand. Yeah she said some nutty things here and there but she was right in the sense that you may as well live your life for yourself. We ultimately choose how we live life so we might as well live it in a way that maximizes our benefit. No point in sacrificing our lives to others.


4c8d40 No.12718

>>12717

>we might as well live it in a way that maximizes our benefit.

That's just common sense. Everyone wants to do that. Rand's philosophy doesn't help people do that though. It just leads people to do the opposite.


5779e7 No.12731

/autism/ already exists


75af13 No.12735

File: 1448752512153-0.jpg (138.05 KB, 595x800, 119:160, sci fi deco city 2.jpg)

File: 1448752512205-1.jpg (187.39 KB, 512x768, 2:3, sci fi deco art sculpture.jpg)

>>12716

The art style is actually called Deco.


ac90d2 No.12755

>>12714

>Pre-emptive action is not restricted.

>>>/objectivism/2

>The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use


8d454d No.12857

>>12677

i like Rand's philosophy but i'm afraid the board will be full of right wing christians and very few libertarians


8d454d No.12858

>>12718

>that's just common sense

it's more uncommon than you think.

most people would agree upon reading it, but the moral mantra in society is inconsistent with this basic ethical premise. out there morality is said to be the exact opposite: if you don't denigrate your own self and don't give your help to causes you may not agree with then you are considered a bad person.

>I know that I'm a bad person. I know what I'm saying is nonsense, but please give me your money because in this book god told us that benefiting people at random was actually the most morally appeasing action to his eyes. and just in case you forgot, I was sent by him


0a5b8f No.12861

>>12858

Eh, I think a society that randomly gives bums money is helpful because it makes them feel indebted to the kindness of society. Furthermore, by fulfilling some of their needs it discourages them from resorting to violence to survive. Yesterday I was in a park and overheard two black guys, probably bums who live there, talking about how to get food stamps. If they didn't have infinite food starvation might commit them to violent robberies.




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