/atheism/ - Atheism

I don't get how any atheist can be afraid of hell. It's just the most transparently manipulative thing. "Join my religion or go to hell." There's no evidence for it except that people said it and the people who say it have a clear agenda. It's like if a politician said "God told me he'll send anyone who doesn't vote for me to hell." Would that make you afraid not to vote for him or would it just tell you that he's a manipulative ass?

>>9083

I know its not a rational thing, I don't believe that there is a location, anywhere on earth, the universe or parallel planes of existence, that is "hell" but the idea haunts me to this day. I think most atheist are fairly open to the idea that we could be wrong and recently I have been thinking this is a greater chance than I thought before and its really bothering me

>>9085

The cure is to ask, "If there is a hell would a fair and benevolent God send you there?" The Christian test for sending someone to hell are ridiculous, (faith in the unknown alone saves you), and you could be sent there without knowing about God or why you were sent there. From knowing that the creator of God is flawed you can progress.

A strong Atheist can argue you would be better off in hell with a clean conscious. Contrast that with being sent to heaven to eternally serve a capricious and genocidal deity, and feeling eternal survivor's guilt every day for not doing more to save other people from hell. You would also have a rising sensation of disillusionment toward God, and wish for ear plugs as the beasts with many eyes keep chanting, "Holy holy holy" incessantly for all eternity. (According to revelation 4:8)

So yeah, you can fake faith like a coward and maybe by God's grace you will be accepted. Or you can tell yourself that even if you're wrong and that God exists, you would still rather stand by your principles, and wouldn't have wanted to serve such a vain, cruel and unforgiving God in the first place. ( >>1632 )

>>9086

>A strong Atheist can argue you would be better off in hell with a clean conscious.

Bullshit.

And which one is the right choice? Yahweh? Buddha? Tiamat? Quetzalcoatl? Hades? Allah? Amaterasu? Khorne? C'thulu? Face it, even if the world is controlled by a bearded sky wizard, chances are you aren't making the right call.

Don't feel bad about it through, fear of the unknown is entirely natural. That is why we invented religion in the first place, it's no coincidence that all the biggest religions have some "after death" woo and explanations for unanswered questions such as the nature of that big shiny orb in the sky.

IMHO, the best cure is knowledge. If you know the history of Christianity, how the bible was written, and why it has the ideas it has, then you'll be far less doubtful of it's human invention status.

>>9083

C'mon, don't be so smug.

There are people on here who've suffered from indoctrination and mental torture for years.

>>9129

Most religions don't have a hell, though

>>9167

>>9167

The only people who I've ever seen make fun of this mentality are Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Remember that episode of South Park where Satan went to go talk to God? "Welcome to Heaven! Population: 334"

If you want to get over any fear there is a way I know about that gets rid of fear of death for most people.

That's shrooms from what I have heard of from most people and close relatives, they all said it put reality into perspective and stopped caring, sure there was some Mexican study on that shit as well look it up.

>>9085

Pascal's wager a shit

>I think most atheist are fairly open to the idea that we could be wrong

yes, we could also be wrong about pretty much everything. so what? we cannot be held accountable for being honest about human ignorance. if a just god existed and he were to judge everyone after death he would praise atheists for resisting the temptation of arriving at conclusions for which there's no justification, even if the conclusions are right. that's making good use of the human rational faculties. everyone else would go to hell for the sin of self-delusion :P

When you think of it, heaven is horrible in its own way too. if the christard mythology were right I might as well leave the fate of my afterlife to the toss of a coin for heaven is in fact a dictatorship, and an end to morality since there would be no choice at all.

>>9086

this. faith is the opposite of virtuous.

>feeling eternal survivor's guilt every day for not doing more to save other people from hell

not to mention that your memories would have to be manipulated and destroyed in order to cope with the task of making you superlatively and eternally happy while some of your loved ones burn in hell

>>9082

Hell is to some just being away from their god's love. But ask yourself if it makes sense. If their god is ever-loving, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, would it not have more love for you than you have for your children, if you had any or pretend to?

If I had a child and knew if I let them play out in the street that they'd be ran over, I'd keep them away, even if just for minutes make them stay in their room rather than suffer eternally without me. This is kind of analogous to the free will issue.

Also, belief isn't a choice. You can't get someone to believe in something unless they're convinced to believe it. If you truly don't believe it, that's not your issue, the burden is on the others to convince you of gods, angels, miracles, magic, walking on water, water into wine, global flood, virgin births, coming back from the dead, sons of gods, etc. If you truly believe all that's bullshit, that's the sanest option and no god or gods could blame you. In my limited love for anon, would a god or gods not be more understanding?

Don't worry anon. Of course a christian might see me as the devil for trying to make sense and not to listen to me but logic and critical thinking are rarely their strong suits. Just help yourself and others when you can and live a life of joy as best you can, don't worry so much what the ignorant think.

>>9327

>If their god is ever-loving, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, would it not have more love for you than you have for your children, if you had any or pretend to?

God was more relatable when he was an unlikeable, hot-tempered and capricious God. He used to have human characteristics like most Gods. That was until later authors decided to up his power levels beyond OP, and recast him as the God of infinite love, wisdom, and goodness, which introduced those logical problems which the Hebrews were unable to see.

What you're describing is similar to the paradoxes a kid notices when watching a superman cartoon. Cheating by giving your character infinite power creates infinite complications, which is why when you use a gameshark the game's world tends to gradually glitch up and eventually crash.

>>9329

What good is a god if its flaws are relatable? Why would it need worshiped?

>which introduced those logical problems

Implying the idea of gods has no logical problems. If it didn't, we wouldn't have people not believing or fighting over "logic" in holy texts. And I suppose if you have an interpretation, it's the correct and logical one?

>>9477

Cool. I like this belief because it feels better so it must be more truthful.

But that belief isn't really much different than the matrix universe that the universe auto-corrects the errors in its simulation like fault-tolerant computing systems. The difference that I like is that matrix theory isn't abound with faggots that feel need to spam the world with their shit theory because they're supposed to "save souls" or "be fruitful".

>>9082

The bible was written by people who did know much about the universe and made up stuff, combined older legends (again made up by people who tried to explain the world, but failed miserably, because they also didn't know shit) and mixed in some stuff so people be obedient.

Do you think they knew more than we do? There is absolutely no reason to believe there is hell or something like that. Our "soul/consciousness" is a physics play within our complex brains which arose through evolution and when we die we decompose and nothing is left.

Of course I get you, you fear that even if other things are bullshit, this might be somewhat true. You know what? There is a possibility that right now a stray rock from outer space is going to plunge through the atmosphere and hit you on the head - it will be a terrible mess, blood, brain, guts everywhere, mourning relatives killing themselves from grief…

But do you worry about it? Of course not, the chance is very slim. And we know there are innumerable numbers of them and that they are real. Why the fuck then should you preoccupy yourself with a laughable notion invented by a bunch of ancient neckbeards?

Just live your life and do good stuff because it makes you feel good and useful and because you have empathy and the golden rule is a tried-and-true guide how to not be much of an asshole.

You understand?

>>9560

>Do you think they knew more than we do? There is absolutely no reason to believe there is hell or something like that. Our "soul/consciousness" is a physics play within our complex brains which arose through evolution and when we die we decompose and nothing is left.

The part about consciousness only looks like science, but it's not what neurologists say, far from that. I wouldn't bet my ass on the idea that consciousness is simply a chemical result, or a computable one; scientists don't currently believe there's a connection between chemicals and consciousness, or that you can compute consciousness. They only infer that from the obvious fact that we are conscious, but that's about it. Actual experts don't say this stuff.

>>9335

>What good is a god if its flaws are relatable? Why would it need worshiped?

That does sound as narcissistic as worshipping your pimples.

>Do you think they knew more than we do? There is absolutely no reason to believe there is hell or something like that.

Not sure if someone said it, but there are plenty of equally horrible beliefs no one pays any attention to. There's the quran, and there's the idea that if Egyptian priests don't do rites or bury you with a book of the dead you will become a wandering spirit for eternity/be eaten by a monster. Why worry about one possibility without evidence, and not the others? Because its a popular idea where you live right?

>>9689

They didn't mention chemicals. Only that consciousness is a result of physical forces. I don't know what you're arguing other than to try to distinguish your view from others. If you're trying to use science to argue for "souls", good luck.

Some of you christians are so hell-bent on trying to prove souls exist you're willing to assume consciousness is something meta, that can't be explained through science and figured out.

>>9132

yeah.. this is true.

The closed thing I ever had to a "spiritual experience" was a panic attack based on the terror of realizing I was guilty of a mortal sin.

>>11013

Christian after life is a pretty messed concept all in all.

>>9082

>Only the most liberal and wishful thinking reading of the bible avoids hell imo

well according to doctrine yes. i used to be fearful of the idea of hell too, until I read Dante's Inferno.

As someone who was highly educated of the christian-catholic faith, his fictional description of hell may in fact be one of the most accurate.

at the very least, it complies with most biblical doctrine, and the Pope called him one "of the many celebrated geniuses of whom the Catholic faith can boast" and the "pride and glory of humanity"

so his writings may hold some merit.

Now according to Dante's Inferno, if one lives virtuously but was either not baptized as a child, or believed in the wrong faith (in this case, a lack of faith), they would be sent to the outer ring of hell, where their only punishment is that they will never see the true form of God, which is said to satisfy mankind's eternal desire to acquire knowledge- that is the punishment.

doesn't sound that bad now does it?

if you still cannot shake away the idea of going to hell, just don't be a dick in life- and you'll probably be fine.

(if there is even a god to begin with)

>>11288

Virtuous according to Christian morals though. So too much lust or anger, despite being generally a good person, would still get you thrown into the pit. It's worth mentioning that all of the people in limbo were believers of some kind, usually pagan. I reckon this is because Christians see faith itself to be a virtue. Outright disbelief would probably land you in the city of Dis.

Also, since everyone of us here knows quite a bit about Christianity I imagine, were Yahweh to exist, he wouldn't show as much mercy as he does to pagans who lived before christ.

>>11013

So……….its a shittier version of What Dreams May Come?

>>9082

Hell is absurd.

How are you going suffer when you no longer how a nervous system to feel pain with?

and what could you possible do that would make you deserve an eternity of unending punishment? (this is a weaker argument. because after all just because something is absurd and cruel doesn't mean it's not real)

>>9477

>early Christianity became contaminated by Roman culture?

Christianity itself in the product of the blend of Hellanistic values and Hebrew ones.

The God of Moses wouldn't have a son.. Moses would have had Jesus stoned to death the moment he opened his mouth.

>>9099

Heaven is no better. In the words of Christopher Hitchens when you examine it closely the kingdom of God would be like a celestial North Korea

>>9689

truth be told little is known about consciousness and many philosophers think science might never be able to answer this particular problem, but the little we do know comes from science, not religions. Ignorance is not a free pass to wishful thinking.