/christ/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>1771

Welcome!

If you want to you can introduce us to some concepts of Islam, point out differences to Christianity or just chit chat.

We were founded to provide a space for open discussion for everyone interested, so anyone without malicious intent can post here.

This also means that we are allowing opposing views however, so don't be upset if people disagree with you.

>>1774

Oh, people disagreeing with me is never a problem. It's why we have such a wonderfully diverse world.

I'll hang around and read through existing threads for now and, of course, try to answer any questions I come across.

>>1771

Welcome, I am the board owner. I just wanted to say that you are very welcome here and God bless you. I will take a look at >>>/islam/ as well.

>>1790

>>1774

What's the difference between /christian/ and /christ/?

>>1771

VITRIOL!

Hello there!

I, for one, can assure you that Muslims are welcome here. We all have our differences, and the Christians here basically fled /christian/ over intolerance of said differences. If I can co-exist with Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, I can co-exist with you. All we need to do is focus on what we have in common while inquiring about our differences, with respect and humility. If you can do that, so can I.

If things go well, I'll even check your board and contribute there, as I have read the Quran and could easily ask you people many questions about your faith.

Welcome to /christ/!

>>1798

I laughed.

>>1797

To put it simply, /christian/ has been overtaken by extremist Catholics who have chosen a certain interpretation of their faith and think they're Space Marines and Jesus is their Emperor; they see heresy everywhere and don't tolerate any straying from their rules. You'll get banned for even questioning of the Whore of Babylon is Rome/Vatican city.

We made this board to allow freethinking conversation about everything and with the clear intention of never antagonising anons of good faith. We won't shit on you for varied beliefs because we want to be able to DISCUSS.

I think Mormons aren't Christians but I will not attack Mormons or call them heretics or anything. I'll talk with them. That's the difference.

>>1797

mostly what Oolf said. We also have several threads on the topic if you wanna know in detail:

Why this board was founded:

>>944

Thread of an anon that recently came here because of their moderation

>>1348

One of the first threads trying to prohibit this "schism"

>>152

There was even a whole board on the moderation issues that christian had to face

>>>/christiandiscussion/

There is also a satire board :^)

>>>/onlychristian/

>>1798

Kek

>>1800 (checked)

>>1809

Thanks

I'm from /islam/ if you go to /christian/ catalog and ctrl+f "judas" I expose them in that thread as deniers of the day of judgement and the resurrection. these are key concepts, no muslim can take a christian seriously if they are denied.

They denied them solely because I identified myself as a Muslim while pointing out their own scripture and statements from ancient and modern christian theologians.. Their denial was combined with racial insults against me.

As Seneca said, he who has learned how to die has un-learned how to be a slave. Human beings need to know exactly what to expect after life to best prepare to die. When you have many provisions for the hereafter you are not ignorant about hereafter you will not be a slave here inshaAllah

>come here from one of the other religion boards that was invited by /christ/ to debate

>first post is muslims

I'm good thanks

>>1825

>Not being able to debate Muslims

>>1824

>I'm from /islam/ if you go to /christian/ catalog and ctrl+f "judas" I expose them in that thread as deniers of the day of judgement and the resurrection. these are key concepts, no muslim can take a christian seriously if they are denied.

Do you mean here?

>>1831

>Do you mean here?

whoops

>>89894

As I've said on /islam/

>>>/islam/6235

>There will be a resurrection and a final judgement. If you don't beleve that I don't really see how you could call yourself Christian.

>It's a very integral part, like the sacrifice on the cross.

>That's also why muslims are so different to us.

>There is no salvation afaik.

>>1825

This is the very first thread/posts of muslims. Check out the catalog, we have quite some Christian discussions already

Oh good, I have several questions pertaining to the Muslim faith.

How do you deal with sin?

We are sinners, and God is Holy.

According to Islam, how is this problem reconciled?

Do you agree with the philosophical definition of God?

That is God is the greatest conceivable being, or a maximally great being.

If so, would you consider that Allah described in the Qur'an is not as great as the God in the bible, on the basis of love.

The Qur'an states that Allah does not love sinners, while the God of the bible is described as loving everyone, even sending His Son to die for sinners.

So according to the Qur'an Allah has conditional love, and God as described in the bible has unconditional love.

Wouldn't you agree that unconditional love is greater than conditional love?

Do you think that Islam is a religion of violence?

If so, why is this preferable to peace?

If not, what do you say to all the sutras that demand Jehad?

It seems to me that "extremists" Muslims are the ones who are more accurately following the teaching of the Qur'an.

I also wanted to say that Christianity is unique among all regions in that we have assurance here and now.

It is not based on our works, but rather the work of Jesus.

No other religion is like this, as acceptance is based on your works. (video related)

Feel free to share your opinions on this notion.

>>1839

>How do you deal with sin?

Pray for guidance.

>Do you agree with the philosophical definition of God?

I suppose, but your second statement makes little sense. It infers that either there is no love in Qur'an or that there is more than one God.

>Qur'an states that Allah does not love sinners

Does it? Care to cite?

>Do you think that Islam is a religion of violence?

Only when necessary. To everything there is a reason, a season, a time to laugh, a time to cry, a time to live, a time to die. I'm sure you're familiar with that.

Peace is always preferable, but not always possible. If a man attacks you relentlessly, then peace is not possible. Islam is neither a religion of violence nor a religion of peace.

Jihad doesn't mean "kill everyone you see". Jihad doesn't mean "war". Jihad means struggle. A man who tries to quit smoking is in jihad al-nafs - jihad of the self.

>It seems to me …

Then perhaps you need to re-examine the narrative to which you subscribe. There are 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. The "extremists", as you call them, comprise approximately 200-250k adherents. How does 250,000/17000000000 define Islam?

Islam is perfect.

Muslims are not.

Don't mistake one for the other.

>based on works

Not true of Islam. Profess the oneness of God, pray, avoid sin, be compassionate, etc.

>>1844

Tell me about Imams please.

Where do they get their authority from? Islam is like the most decentralised religion in the world, why should I listen to what an Imam says and not do what I deem right?

Is there a ranking among Imams?

If I were a muslim, would there be any worldly entity that would have authority over me necessarily?

I mean like if you're a Catholic you have to accept the magisterium and that

>>1844

> Profess the oneness of God, pray, avoid sin, be compassionate, etc.

all works btw :^)

>>1845

Don't shi'ites have a system similar to the Orthodox for that?

>>1845

>any worldly entity that would have authority over me

Oh, forgot to answer that. No. Only Allah has authority through Qur'an and the Sunnah. There have been, of course, many wise scholars over the centuries who can be turned to for additional guidance; but the ultimate authority is Allah.

If, however, a proper Caliphate were formed, then the Caliph would have … hmm … Papal-like authority. He could make religious decrees on points of faith and establish precedent in shariah courts. He can't, however, command Muslims to go against the law in non-Muslim nations and he cannot go against Qur'an.

For example: Let's say a Muslim were a seated Judge in a court of law in the US. The Caliph cannot command that Judge to imprison someone unjustly or deny due process. We're not permitted to enforce Islamic law on non-Muslim nations.

Likewise, he cannot command Muslims to go blow up market places or malls or whatnot. Murder is a sin. The death penalty is handed out by courts under Islamic jurisprudence, guilt must be proven, and not by wandering bands of vigilantes.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen - obviously it does - but it doesn't define Islam. There may be laws against murder, but people still find a way to do it.

I think that covers everything …

>>1844

>Pray for guidance.

That's always good advice.

>It infers that either there is no love in Qur'an…

I did not mean it that way.

Only that there is definitely a distinction between the sinners, and those who are faithful to Allah.

In that Allah does not love sinners unbelievers.

>Does it? Care to cite?

It looks like I was wrong. It is unbelievers, not sinners, that Allah does not love.

Qur'an 30:45

That He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Qur'an 3:32

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

>I'm sure you're familiar with that.

Correct.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

>If a man attacks you relentlessly, then peace is not possible.

>Jihad doesn't mean "kill everyone you see".

It was my understanding the Qur'an teaches to kill anyone who refuses to believe in Allah.

Qur'an 2:191

And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Qur'an 8:12

When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Qur'an 9:29

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

It seems a call to arms against unbelievers.

Even stating to "Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

Have I misinterpreted these sutra's?

>How does 250,000/17000000000 define Islam?

My claim was not that the minority represents the majority.

In my opinion the Qur'an tells people to do those types of things.

The way I see it the extremists are following the teaching of the Qur'an.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the teachings, but "strike off their heads" seems fairly clear to me.

>Not true of Islam.

>pray, avoid sin, be compassionate

As pointed out by >>1847 these are works.

I admit these are good things, and we should do them, but it is not a requirement in Christianity.

The thief on the cross never did any good works, he just confessed that Jesus is Lord.

Luke 23:39-43

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

>And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

>And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

>>1888

>In that Allah does not love sinners unbelievers.

The word sinners was meant to be strike-through.

Apparently that doesn't work.

Sorry for any confusion.

>>1888

Ah, the old stand-bys.

>Qur'an 2:191

What does Qur'an 2:190 say?

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. This shows that 2:191 is about self-defense. The term "those who fight you" is pretty clear. And immediately after: And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 2:192.

If they fight you, fight back. If they stop, then you stop. Do you disagree?

You can't just take 191. Surat al-Baqarah is an entire book. Taking a single sentence as absolute truth is not something Muslims do. Islam is not a buffet to be picked and chosen.

Jesus took up a rod/whip to beat the money changers, who - I might point out - never actually attacked him. Every one of Allah's prophets have shown that peace is preferred, but sometimes you have to take up arms.

>>1888

>The thief on the cross never did any good works, he just confessed that Jesus is Lord.

That sounds like any deathbed conversion which wouldn't require works. And sola fide is taken down hard here in John 3:36:

>Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

>>1845

> Islam is like the most decentralised religion in the world, why should I listen to what an Imam says and not do what I deem right?

You should absolutely do what you deem right. There are four imams in mainstream Islam that have developed comprehensive juristic codes. There used to be more but some schools have gone extinct so authority of their schools is based on staying power.

These schools of thought are called madahab. The most dynamic tendency in Islam right now is salafism where all 4 schools of thought are respected but the strongest ruling is chosen regRdless of its school of origin. A return to the primary texts is also encouraged.

For Christians, the Bible can be translated into any language and it's still the Bible, but for Muslims, the Qur'an has to be in Arabic to be the Qur'an, correct? So, I've always wondered why Muslims think that God would only make his scripture available in Arabic. Is that based on something in the book, or is it just a tradition?

>>1895

>but for Muslims, the Qur'an has to be in Arabic to be the Qur'an, correct?

I would say no, it can be translated but there are some words can't translated or arguably wrong translated.

I'm pretty sure some words in Bible understand differently because of translating issues.

>Is that based on something in the book, or is it just a tradition?

As far as I know people have arabic Qur'an, it's kinda tradition here(Turkey) most people does not even bother to read it just string it up on high place for showing respect, even some drunk degenerate people doing it.

People who want to read Qur'an usually have translated ones or go to the Qur'an course.

In Qur'an qourse you learn arabic and meanings of words in Qur'an since it may not understandable for non-native Arabic speaker.

In Qur'an qourse you kinda at the imam's mercy since he can teach you very wrong things altough it's not that common

>>1892

>Do you disagree?

I still say the Qur'an disagrees.

Qur'an 9:29

>Fight those who do not believe in Allah

Notice it does not say defend yourselves against unbelievers, it specifically says to fight them.

Qur'an 8:12

>Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Sahih Muslim Book 20 Number 4696 even goes as far as to people who do not fight hypocrites.

http://muflihun.com/muslim/20/4696

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite. 'Abdullah b. Mubarak said: We think the hadith pertained to the time of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).

>Taking a single sentence as absolute truth is not something Muslims do.

>Islam is not a buffet to be picked and chosen.

Oh you are absolutely right.

Hence I'm asking someone who is more familiar with the text.

>Jesus took up a rod/whip to beat the money changers

Yeah, beating someone with a rod is not the same as striking off their heads.

One is likened to correcting a child.

Proverbs 13:24

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

While the other is murder.

Exodus 20:13

You shall not murder.

>>1897

http://quran.com

This website has 6 English translations available, and defaults to show the original along with the translation.

I find it very useful because I do not speak, or read Arabic, but having 6 translations you should be able to get a fairly accurate meaning of what is said.

>>1900

>Qur'an 9:29

>Fight those who do not believe in Allah

Notice it does not say defend yourselves against unbelievers, it specifically says to fight them.

Qur'an 8:12

>Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Talking about Meccan pagans who refused to convert after several peaceful request not only that they commit lot's of bad thngs, like forbid to sell anything to the muslim.

>unbelievers

kafir does not mean unbeliever, kafir means people who hides the truth.

>why does meccan pagans called like that

because they believed One major God(I'm aware they worshipped several "gods")

but the paganism was more profitable for pagan upper class, they actually believed Prophet Muhammad's honesty (Muhammad was famous with his honesty even amongst worst pagans)

They tried to seek profit, they offered Prophet everything they have(women,money,land)

Prophet said:Even when you give you sun and moon I'll never give up on this cause(rough translate)

>I find it very useful because I do not speak, or read Arabic, but having 6 translations you should be able to get a fairly accurate meaning of what is said.

Well true that, but some people disagrees upon the other translations

>>1902

>Talking about Meccan pagans who refused to convert

>who refused to convert

My point exactly.

The Qur'an teaches to kill anyone who refuses to convert.

How then can anyone claim this is a not a religion of violence?

>>1902

>Well true that, but some people disagrees upon the other translations

It's the same with the bible.

And although I usually default to the King James Version, I also compare the versions.

Sometimes I disagree with the KJV

For example

Exodus 20:13 (KJV)

Thou shalt not kill.

In my opinion this is much better translated as

You shall not murder

As is found in some of the other translations.

The website biblehub offers a variety of translations, all at once.

http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-13.htm

I say its always a good idea to compare all the translations, especially when it comes to issues of faith.

>>1903

>The Qur'an teaches to kill anyone who refuses to convert

It does not. Problem with meccan pagans, they tortured muslims and banned Islam in mecca.

Main goal in this verse is:"go muslims save your brothers" not hurrr kill all people which openly forbidden in Islam forcefully convert people.

Focus on whole tree not just one flower, peace

>>1905

>go muslims save your brothers

I did not read that anywhere.

Could you please cite the place you read that?

>>1905

Also are you the same anon who posted >>1902

Because if you are, I would ask you to stand on your own words, or retract them

>Talking about Meccan pagans who refused to convert after several peaceful request not only that they commit lot's of bad thngs, like forbid to sell anything to the muslim.

>who refused to convert

>>1895

> the Qur'an has to be in Arabic to be the Qur'an, correct?

Nope.

>>1900

> it specifically says to fight them.

And, once again, you're taking individual verses as completeness. 9:28 shows that 29 is speaking of those who attempt to enter al-Masjid al-Haram - that's where "the cube" is located. If they're not trying to invade al-Masjid al-Haram, then 9:29 doesn't apply to them.

From now on, whenever you're thinking of putting up a verse from Qur'an, go and read 3 before it and 3 after.

>>1903

No, it does not. However, it would appear that you have been jaded by a narrative and will refuse to listen to the truth. You are like someone who has been told his whole life that the sky is green and you accept it, even if someone proves that it is blue. Your heart is hardened and I will pray for you that Allah lifts the stone from your heart.

>>1908

>No, it does not.

Qur'an 8:9-15 (that is 3 before, and 3 after 12)

When you sought aid from your Lord, so He answered you: I will assist you with a thousand of the angels following one another.

And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.

>When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger– then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

This– taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.

O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.

It still seems to me that this plainly teaches to kill unbelievers.

Please explain how my understanding is wrong?

> it would appear that you have been jaded by a narrative and will refuse to listen to the truth.

The same could be said of you.

It would appear to me that you deny the words of the Qur'an.

I'm not just making this up to attack you, or your beliefs, the book says it.

http://quran.com/8

>>1906

It doesn't write directly in Qur'an, if you don't opress the muslims who are living in your countries or attack us we have no right to fight back.

Of course if muslim commit crime, you can punish.

>>1907

Yes

>who refused to convert

again I said this because of pointing meccan pagans, converting or not is not main point in here.

Just asking you a question, for example early christians get opressed and tortured by romans

would Jesus act like:Ok that's it, it ends here, that is our destiny, they can be killed I don't care or would he protect his brothers and fight?

>>1910

>It doesn't write directly in Qur'an,

Then where do you derive this teaching, and why does the Qur'an teach differently?

>pointing meccan pagans, converting or not is not main point in here

Then what is?

>Just asking you a question, for example early christians get opressed and tortured by romans

would Jesus act like:Ok that's it, it ends here, that is our destiny, they can be killed I don't care or would he protect his brothers and fight?

Jesus taught peace.

When did He ever command us to fight back?

Jesus taught to "resist not evil"

I understand that to mean, do not fight against them.

Matthew 5:39

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

He also said

Matthew 24:16

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This was in reference to Armageddon.

i.e When the fighting starts, run.

Nowhere did Jesus tell anyone to fight anyone else.

He even rebuked one of his followers for trying to defend Him.

Matthew 26:51,52

And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

>>1910

>Then where do you derive this teaching, and why does the Qur'an teach differently?

Again if you want understand islam you shoudln't just read one verse, already other anon wrote down we can't attack random just because they are unbelievers

>Then what is?

Umm already have written down, muslims get tortured their beliefs are banned

And there are verses in bible if you read chronicles Isaiah 2:3 you'll see there is war in christianity

>Nowhere did Jesus tell anyone to fight anyone else

There are other prophets in christianity, so most of other prophets commit very wrong things?

I just wanted to say that I am grateful that most Muslims abhor violence.

I am also aware of the fact that some people are just evil, and will use whatever they can to justify committing evil.

This has happened even in Christianity.

People can get it wrong, I totally understand that.

My main concern is it seems to me the Qur'an tells people to fight against, and even kill people who refuse to believe.

Perhaps I have taken these verses out of context, or have misunderstood them in some way, but I did not set out to misquote or cherry pick.

I just pointed out some places where it seems to me violence is promoted.

>>1912

>Again if you want understand islam you shoudln't just read one verse

I put the verse in context, as was asked of me.

And you still fail to give an alternative interpretation, and reasoning for that interpretation.

If that verse does not mean what it seems to say, what then does it mean?

And, Why do you think that?

>muslims get tortured their beliefs are banned

So then its ok to return evil for evil?

An eye for an eye so to speak.

>And there are verses in bible if you read chronicles Isaiah 2:3 you'll see there is war in christianity

Christianity did not start until Jesus came in the new testament.

Also talking about something is not the same as condoning it.

Granted there are specific cases where God commanded war, but these are specific to a time and place, and are not general teaching to be followed all the time.

>There are other prophets in christianity, so most of other prophets commit very wrong things?

I don't understand your question.

But I would say that there were times where prophets most likely did do wrong things.

I would contend that Jesus never did anything wrong.

>>1892

>And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 2:192.

Keep reading

2:193

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

>And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

>and religion is for Allah.

You are commanded to fight them until "religion is for Allah.

i.e. Fight them until they convert.

How do you interpret that verse?

>>1886

>In Sunni circles, an Imam is a learned man from the community. He leads the prayers and is often looked to for advice. I am Ibadi. Titles such as Sheikh or Imam or what have you are granted by men.

So they have no power after all?

What is a Fatwa exactly?

>I sort of doubt the validity that the reported sacrifice of Christ is an automatic out without regard to how one lives their life. When Jesus stopped the men from stoning Magdeline, he told her "Go forth and sin no more." If avoiding sin is a "work", then your salvation depends on it as well.

Yes. Faith expresses itself through works. Unless you're a prottie ;^)

>>1887

>If, however, a proper Caliphate were formed, then the Caliph would have

What makes a Caliph proper?

Why is the ISIS Caliph not legitimate but the Ottoman one was?

Was the collapse of the Ottoman Empire severe to muslims?

>>1895

>For Christians, the Bible can be translated into any language and it's still the Bible

hmm…

———————-

What do you think about ISIS?

Aren't they just the most dedicated/honest muslims that follow the Qur'an to the letter?

Does Islam allow slavery?

Yes it does, but elaborate pls

Is there a prefered form of government for muslims?

Is the end goal always a caliphate?

What do you think about Iran? I think they are quite reasonable and have a good form of governement going.

What's exactly difference between the various islamic sects?

Also why the peace be upon him stuff?

Is it bad to not do that? Why would it be important at all?

>>1913

>I just wanted to say that I am grateful that most Muslims abhor violence

Thanks

>I put the verse in context, as was asked of me.

And you still fail to give an alternative interpretation, and reasoning for that interpretation.

If that verse does not mean what it seems to say, what then does it mean?

Already claimed, what the verse is about?

>And, Why do you think that?

because, you cannot say convert or die in Islam. which forbidden in other verses.

If killing all non believers was the case christians(there were arabic christians) and muslims couldn't live together.

I think this is the proof the it's not about believing or not, it's about does not opress or force to believe something.

>So then its ok to return evil for evil?

I should say I kinda don't get what you mean my friend?

Why moses can take up arms and fight mean while Prophet Muhammed shouldn't?

>Granted there are specific cases where God commanded war, but these are specific to a time and place, and are not general teaching to be followed all the time

Well like need to obey rules in war.

>I don't understand your question

Jesus forbid war meanwhile other prophets have maden war, why this is like this?

>And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah

Does not say convert, but it does say they should obey(meccans) after war and Allah says remove fitnah(it means provokers)

>>1916

The key point that is always overlooked are the following phrases: 1] If they fight you; 2] If they desist.

Fight them until persecution is no more, meaning until they stop persecuting Muslims and allow Allah's religion to be.

The most important part of religion and conversion comes from the phrase: There is to be no compulsion in religion.

A forced conversion is not a true conversion. You must convert of your own free will, declaring shahadah before the brothers of the mosque.

Free will + witnesses.

>>1917

>So they have no power after all?

They tend to be respected because of their wisdom. Islam embraces education.

>What is a Fatwa exactly?

A legal decree. The Shi'a are very fond of them. The most famous being the fatwah against Salman Rushdie. The Ayatollah of Iran issued the fatwah.

What many people don't realize, of course, is that the Ayatollah is a Shi'a leader and, thus, any decree he makes is meaningless to non-Shi'a.

>What makes a Caliph proper?

That is … a lot of information. The Caliph must be recognized by the ummah as well as be rightly guided - as in he doesn't stray from Qur'an and the Sunnah.

There are those who believe the ISIS Caliphate to be legit and those who don't. Same with the Turkish Ottomans. The Ottoman Sultanate was won through conquest, which is one of the possible ways to establish a Caliphate.

The collapse of the Ottomans really didn't affect most of the world's Muslims. So long as we have Qur'an and the Sunnah, we have no need of kings. Allah is the final judge of all things and knows best in all things.

>What do you think about ISIS?

I think they need better guidance. They tend to be arrogant and boastful and that goes against the Islamic rules of war.

They don't follow Qur'an to the letter. They burned a prisoner alive. Only Allah may punish with fire. They really messed up with that one.

Slavery is different when it comes to Islam. The images of skinny scarred up black men in bondage being forced to pick cotton 16 hours a day doesn't jibe with slavery in Islam.

http://islamqa.info/en/94840

>prefered form of government

Depends on the Muslim, really. No one of us speaks for all of us. I'm an American and quite like the system of popular elections and representative government. I don't think it conflicts with Islam at all.

>What do you think about Iran?

I've never been there. I hear it's nice.

>What's exactly difference between the various islamic sects?

Again, this is a LONG answer. However, in general, the differences are political or traditional.

>>1918

The (pbuh) is a way of honoring the one named. Sort of like saying "bless you" after someone sneezes or "rest in peace" when speaking of the deceased.

>>1919

>Jesus forbid war meanwhile other prophets have maden war, why this is like this?

hyperbole. Refusing to interpret stuff and instead taking it literally.

Of course Jesus used rethorics to make a point.

>A legal decree

Who can make them?

>The Caliph must be recognized by the ummah as well as be rightly guided

What's an ummah and who is rightly guided?

>They don't follow Qur'an to the letter. They burned a prisoner alive. Only Allah may punish with fire. They really messed up with that one.

I've heard of a Caliph that did that too.

Also didn't Muhammad punish with fire?

>Slavery is different when it comes to Islam. The images of skinny scarred up black men in bondage being forced to pick cotton 16 hours a day doesn't jibe with slavery in Islam.

hm

>The (pbuh) is a way of honoring the one named. Sort of like saying "bless you" after someone sneezes or "rest in peace" when speaking of the deceased.

So it is not mandatory?

When did muslims start to do this?

>>1771

Some questions.

1) Why did the Caliphs switch from being elected leaders to being dynastic leaders?

2) Why did the early Caliphs feel the need to conquer so much territory? I understand that there are some arguments about the Byzantines and the Persians attacking them but of course the Arab conquests did not stop at the Byzantines and Persians.

3) Why do Muslims pray to the Ka'aba? What purpose does it actually serve? Why can't you pray in any direction towards God?

4) What is the Sufi tradition and what do they do? Are they considered wrong by mainstream Islam?

5) I read an article by an Islamic scholar claiming that Daesh was Kharijite. Is this accurate or are they just Salafi extremists?

>>1917

>Yes. Faith expresses itself through works. Unless you're a prottie ;^)

lol

I agree with the statement "faith expresses itself through works".

James 2:20

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

But I have to agree with John Lennox( see embedded video >>1839)

I do not try to live my life for Jesus in order to gain His acceptance, I do it out of gratitude, because I already have His acceptance.

>>1919

>Thanks

Your very welcome. I try to be truthful.

The truth is most Muslims are nonviolent.

>because, you cannot say convert or die in Islam. which forbidden in other verses.

That's good to hear, do you know where I might find that verse?

It seems you are saying that this one verse cannot be promoting the killing of unbelievers, because this other verse forbids it.

And I have to tell you just because it forbids it somewhere else does not mean its not condoning it here.

In my opinion these verses would just contradict each other.

I would honestly prefer to agree to disagree at this point.

If you wish to defend you view, you can feel free.

I will concede that I may in fact be wrong, and am admittedly in the minority, but I still feel like some of these verses condone violence.

>>1920

See above.

I don't see either one of us changing our view

Besides that those points are irrelevant to the truth.

Whether or not it condones violence says nothing to the truth of it.

Perhaps God wishes for these things to be.

What makes you think the Qur'an is the truth, and that the Muslim faith is the correct faith?

Also

Do you guys believe the Old Testament?

If so, what do think about the embedded video?

>>1921

>Who can make them?

Those with authority. In Shi'a circles, that would be the Mullahs. In Sunni circles, an Islamic scholar. However, a Fatwa is very much like a Supreme Court decision. In the US it's law of the land, but means very little outside of the US.

So, an Afghani scholar issuing a fatwa won't necessarily apply to someone in, say, France.

>What's an ummah and who is rightly guided?

The "ummah" is the community, global Islam. Rightly guided means they follow Qur'an and the Sunnah.

>didn't Muhammad punish with fire?

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

No, Muhammad(pbuh) forbade it.

>So it is not mandatory?

Not for non-Muslims, but it is highly encouraged among Muslims. I have no idea when it started.

>>1934

>>1934

> In Sunni circles, an Islamic scholar.

So I myself decide which Fatwahs I want to follow and which scholars to accept as rightfully guided?

>The "ummah" is the community, global Islam.

Does this include all branches of Islam or only the specific one I belonged to?

>the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Do you agree with that?

Essentially you have to. How can you justify this?

It's nice not to burn me but if you kill me anyway my gratitude is limited.

Also it seems to me like the Spirit of this law is not to treat your neighbour with care through not burning him but to leave this privilige to Allah.

>1) Why did the Caliphs switch from being elected leaders to being dynastic leaders?

It's all about the joys of politics in the ancient world. That's a question with an extremely complex set of answers.

>2) Why did the early Caliphs feel the need to conquer so much territory? I understand that there are some arguments about the Byzantines and the Persians attacking them but of course the Arab conquests did not stop at the Byzantines and Persians.

Every civilization goes through a period of expansion. Nations rise and fall, people are conquered, enslaved, and freed. The "why" is always the same: You have something I want and I'm stronger, so I'm going to take it. Fortunately mankind has become more civilized.

>3) Why do Muslims pray to the Ka'aba? What purpose does it actually serve? Why can't you pray in any direction towards God?

The Kaaba is a unifying factor. It helps create the mass community of Muslim brothers and sisters. I know that anywhere I go in the world, my prayers will be the same as the brother next to me. Further, the Kaaba is the first Mosque, built by Adam and ordained by Allah, later consecrated as a place of worship by Abraham.

>4) What is the Sufi tradition and what do they do? Are they considered wrong by mainstream Islam?

Mystics. Most of the orthodox schools of Islam dismiss the Sufi as misguided.

>5) I read an article by an Islamic scholar claiming that Daesh was Kharijite. Is this accurate or are they just Salafi extremists?

I see them as Salafi. I'm Ibadi, which is closely related to Kharijite (though WAY more peaceful), and I see the Daesh studying on the teachings of Muhammed ibn Wahhab as being Salafiyya.

>>1935

>>1935

> I myself decide which Fatwahs I want to follow

You have free will, do you not?

>ummah

The ummah is all Muslims everywhere in all Worlds.

>changed religion, kill him

The Prophet wasn't speaking in general terms as a blanket "kill all apostates!" but rather toward a specific group of people who really have no bearing on today's society. It's sort of like reading about the Ancient Egyptians and the plagues and the Canaanites in Exodus. Doesn't really mean much today. There are no Nubian Egyptians nor Canaanites anymore. History, like many things, is relative to the observer.

If you become Muslim, then we shall rejoice and welcome you. If you subsequently choose to abandon Islam, then we shall pray earnestly for your swift return. Your relationship with Allah is yours alone. Only Allah knows the path upon which you travel and its outcome. If I were to kill you, then I would be taking away Allah's chance to guide you. That is an extremely bad sin.

>privilege

It's not a matter of leaving the privilege to Allah. We don't have any choice in the matter. Man proposes, Allah disposes. If Allah chooses to punish someone with fire, then it's not by our will.

>>1937

>You have free will, do you not?

Yes, but in my opinion this will lead to people that justify their wrongdoings and lawyer themselve around their crimes.

Do you have something similar to confession?

>changed religion, kill him answer

That's a noble attitude. Does the majority of muslims see it like this?

> If Allah chooses to punish someone with fire, then it's not by our will.

Tell me about the last judgement please.

Who will enter the heavens and who will not?

Do you have something similar to purgatory?

Also what's about muslim apocalypse?

What will happen in the end of times according to Islam?

>>1938

>Do you have something similar to confession?

No. We only pray to Allah without intercession.

And there will always, in every society, in every community, be someone who tries to lawyer themselves through loopholes and vague rules. In microcosm, look at the chans. If a board has a rule, there's always someone who thinks they're crafty and breaks it *juuuust barely* and argues to high heaven when they are disciplined.

>Does the majority of muslims see it like this?

Honestly, I don't know. I've been alive for 43 years and been Muslim for 11 of those years. In my 11 years in the community, I have discussed this exact matter with approximately 50-70 brothers in person at the mosque and of those, we all agree. What little Ahmed over in Buttcrackistan believes, I have no idea. We're a community, but there are 1.7 billion of us. I can no more claim consensus than you could claim Christian consensus. Some things are pretty universal, but are you familiar with the saying "God is in the details"?

>Who will enter the heavens

We do not know. Only Allah knows. The most outwardly pious man could have a black heart. Allah knows his heart and judges accordingly. All we can do is pray for the guidance to have a place in Paradise ourselves.

No purgatory, no.

Our apocalypse is pretty much the same as the Christians. A great war happens, Jesus returns and fights the Mahdi (sort of who you'd call the 'anti-christ'), the dead are resurrected, everyone is judged. The End.

That's all very, very simplified. I'm sure you understand.

>>1940

>Honestly, I don't know. I've been alive for 43 years and been Muslim for 11 of those years.

What were you before and how did you come to Islam?

> I can no more claim consensus than you could claim Christian consensus.

In Catholicism it's quite clear actually. When the magisterium has decided how things go, that's it.

>We do not know. Only Allah knows.

Didn't he give you a hint in the Qur'an?

Do I only need a good heart?

Do I need to follow all the laws or else?

> A great war happens, Jesus returns and fights the Mahdi

Is Jesus a special prophet then?

Is he above Muhammad ? Why is Muhammad so great?

Did he lead a sinless life according to Islam?

>That's all very, very simplified. I'm sure you understand.

Sure

>hat's good to hear, do you know where I might find that verse?

bakara 256

>>1941

>Is Jesus a special prophet then?

They all are.

>Is he above Muhammad ? Why is Muhammad so great?

There's no level. Muhammad was not the greatest, he was the last.

>Did he lead a sinless life according to Islam?

All men sin. We are born sinless, but learn to sin through upbringing and corruption.

>Didn't he give you a hint in the Qur'an?

>Do I only need a good heart?

>Do I need to follow all the laws or else?

As long as what you're doing isn't specifically against the commandments of God, then you're fine. Qur'an isn't meant to cause stress and grief. It's best to not overthink it. You may be interested to know that all people who believe in the oneness of God and in the Last Days have a place in Paradise. That includes Christians and Jews.

>When the magisterium has decided how things go, that's it.

Yes, but there are hundreds - maybe thousands - of different schools/denominations of Christianity. There is no one overreaching authority among the churches.

>What were you before

I was brought up in the United Methodist church in East Texas and my journey to Islam is lengthy and quite dull, really. I'll spare you the details.

>vitriol

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are severe against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… ~ Muhammad

Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. ~ Muhammad

Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! ~ Muhammad

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve… ~ Muhammad

>

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>1944

>They all are.

> Muhammad was not the greatest, he was the last.

That's news to me.

For an outsider it often even seems like you would worship Muhammad , an old word here for Islam is Muhammadism.

> We are born sinless

hm

>As long as what you're doing isn't specifically against the commandments of God

But I did!

What now?

>You may be interested to know that all people who believe in the oneness of God and in the Last Days have a place in Paradise. That includes Christians and Jews.

But I don't really think that the God of Islam would like me that much, I opposed his religion here a lot after all.

>Yes, but there are hundreds - maybe thousands - of different schools/denominations of Christianity. There is no one overreaching authority among the churches.

In fact Catholicism is by far the most important and biggest with more than a billion adherents.

meaning that more than a half of Christians are Catholics alone, + all the other apostolic churches .

I have heard somewhere that there are more than 40.000 different protestant denominations #hearsay

>United Methodist church

Totally understandable that you left them, but why did it have to be Islam after all?

Have you tried other Christian denominations first?

> I'll spare you the details.

That's ok

>>1955

Outsiders often mistake reverence for worship. Sort of like how people accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the Saints.

Muhammad was a man, unworthy of worship.

>sinless

I know. The Christians have "original sin", but we don't. The sins of the father do not pass down. Adam was forgiven.

>the God of Islam

There is only one God.

>why did it have to be Islam after all

It wasn't a sudden switch, rather a journey of study. Allah's revelation to me was slow and arduous. There was no instant shining light save one: I came to realize that Allah does not need to be defended. Allah is wonderful at self-defense. This means that if the only way a person can show the truth of their path is through the condemnation and denigration of others, then there is no truth in that path.

Every time I listened to a Christian, the end result was the same. Rather than talk of the brotherhood and love of Jesus, they spoke of the evils of mankind. The more I read into Paul, the more I realized his writings meant nothing more than early expansionism.

Jesus didn't follow Jewish law, so who was he? What was he? What was he teaching? I asked the same of all the prophets. The one consistent truth among all of them is they worshiped God and none other. No intercessor, no priests, no son, but God and God alone.

>>1955

>But I did!

>What now?

Pray for forgiveness. Allah forgives endlessly. Then go forth and sin no more.

>>1966

>Outsiders often mistake reverence for worship. Sort of like how people accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the Saints.

>Muhammad was a man, unworthy of worship.

I see, that's a good comparison.

So Muhammad is not that special after all?

He seems to be very present among muslims though while other prophets are not, at least as far as I can tell.

> The sins of the father do not pass down. Adam was forgiven.

But why are we still trapped in this imperfect body then? Why do we die?

Why is there no garden of Eden right now?

>There is only one God.

There is only one true God in the end, yes. But Islam and Rabbinical Jewry do not worship the same God as Christians do.

There is only one truth.

>>1563

see video there

I don't believe in Universalism.

Also do you believe that I am a polytheist because I believe in the trinity?

Are there Saints in Islam?

> they spoke of the evils of mankind.

Shouldn't they? There will be a judgement after all.

>the more I realized his writings meant nothing more than early expansionism.

If you hold the only way to eternal life and love people you should spread it.

>Jesus didn't follow Jewish law,

He did.

Maybe he did not always follow the letter of the law but the spirit. And that's what really matters.

>so who was he?

The son of God and God himself, made flesh.

> What was he?

The ultimate sacrifice.

Logos, the word, the meaning - the way

Sinless.

>What was he teaching?

The new covenant and that no one can reach the father but through him.

>No intercessor, no priests, no son, but God and God alone.

No one worships intercessors or priests, at least here.

However, the very first that appointed priests of the new covenant was Jesus himself.

>>1968

>Pray for forgiveness. Allah forgives endlessly. Then go forth and sin no more.

That sounds nice, at least to me.

But there will be a judgment, won't it?

So what will the people that I wronged think about that? Will they agree too that I will be forgiven?

God is a perfect judge after all.

A perfect judge can't leave a criminal without sentence or a crime unpunished.

Tell me about muslim Jesus please.

You call him Isa, right?

So he didn't die on the cross. Who did then?

Why do people believe he's God, if he only "was" a prophet?

>>1979

Don't get me wrong. Muhammad is highly revered and we, as Muslims, look to him for guidance in how to live our day to day lives and be closer to Allah.

>Why do we die?

You should look to the story of Job for your answer to that.

> do you believe that I am a polytheist

I find it odd that you'd put anything or anyone on equal footing with the Creator of Worlds; but I'm not here to judge.

No, there are no Saints. Not in the Catholic sense, anyway. There are highly revered scholars and we probably have a reverence for Mary equal or greater to your own - there's an entire book in Qur'an devoted to her - but nothing approaching the level of Saints.

>you hold the only way to eternal life

Only Allah holds the way to eternal life. Nobody here is Allah.

>the spirit. And that's what really matters

Not according to the Judaica.

>But there will be a judgment, won't it?

Of course.

>>1980

>So he didn't die on the cross. Who did then?

We don't know.

>Why do people believe he's God, if he only "was" a prophet?

What people believe is generally inconsequential. People believe Haile Selassie was God. Doesn't make it so.

>>1995

In Islamic nations, where shariah is the law of the land, then apostasy comes with the death penalty under certain conditions:

1] The apostasy is witnessed.

2] The apostate is unrepentant.

3] The apostate is trying to push others to join him.

This is determined in a court of law. Islam does not permit vigilantism. It should also be noted that the death penalty is not lightly given. From 2007 - 2012, the United States executed 220 people. Conversely, Pakistan executed 171, Yemen 152, Libya 39.

Not every Islamic nation is Saudi Arabia, you know. The Saud family subscribes to the very Orthodox school of Muhammad al-Wahhab. Muslim nations like Turkey or Tunisia are much less restrictive (Tunisia is that grey one in North Africa across from Italy).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: No one of us speaks for all of us.

>>1997

>this penalty is not lightly given. The united states (killed more people….)

Compare the populations of those countries and divide them and the ratio of executions looks comparatively tame in the US. Furthermore the US does not execute people because they do not follow the state religion, America has no official state religion.

The reason people do not openly profess their Christian conversion or disbelief in Islam is because they would be executed. (They certainly exist in the shadows.) It seems cowardly to me that the state needs to "protect people" from ex-muslims with a threat of violence against them for simply saying, "I no longer follow Islam."

I have not once heard of an ex-Muslim who wanted to blow himself up for a cause. They are not dangerous, and only minority of ex-Muslims would even bother to try and debate people even if there were no laws. Women especially tend to be uninterested in engaging in religious debates, and there are those that believe people need to enlighten themselves. Unfortunately Islamic law does not allow the necessary freedom of education to allow people to reach their own conclusions in the Sharia countries on the map above.

>>1998

Sounds like a lot of apologetics. So, the way America does it fits your personal narrative. You don't think the state needs to protect people, but you accept that it can kill people.

Islamic law has absolute freedom of education. The humanities and the arts especially, but there is also the widely held philosophy that science is the slow revelation of Allah's creation.

I have no idea from where you got your opinion of Islam, but you should stop being so judgmental - especially considering how off base your narrative is.

>>1943

Are you talking about this?

Qur'an 2:256

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

>Let there be no compulsion in religion:

Also translated as

>There is no compulsion in religion.

I must say its not as strongly worded as 8:12

>Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Also I don't really see the contradiction that I had suspected.

It could be true that there is no compulsion, but if someone does not convert on their own, then kill them.

Again I do not care to argue this, and obviously not everyone interprets it as such, just wanted to share with you how I read it.

Anyways, did anyone have anything to say regarding the video? >>1931

It is my understanding that Muslims believe the Old Testament.

Is that true?

For yet another way to read about the Gospel of Jesus in the Old Testament.

Just look at the genealogy in Genesis 5. Embed related.

It goes

Adam, Seth, Enosh, Cainan, Mahalalel, Jarad, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, and Noah.

Just look at the meanings of those names, and in the order that they are in.

Feel free to research these name meanings on your own.

I confirmed most of these through the website.

http://www.behindthename.com/

But you may want to check other sources.

You might also be interested in Isiah 53.

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

>>2007

>Are you talking about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_256 check here

>It is my understanding that Muslims believe the Old Testament

According to us every other holy book god's send corrupted so no.

>>2001

>that pic

let me remind in middle ages our technology better we used firearms earlier than europe and we invented giant-like canons to conquer Istanbul, and until our economy collapse due to lose value of silk road and spice road, we couldn't continue to improve our technology, it's rather economic and political issue

and we were more prosperous

>dat wahhabi logic

daily reminder GB fund them to divide&conquer to Ottoman Empire, yes bunch of enemy of science much more easy to conquer compare to Ottoman who send students to the Europe.

And guess what all of these enlightened people died in balkan wars and ww1, if you research we even sen 15 yr old boys to the battle, it's not ok to colonize all world and prevent other countries imrpove then saying why don't you guys have good technology.

>>2001

Well, I suppose at the end of the day it all comes down to whether or not you believe that just because one of us says something, it means we all believe it.

Can I use Rev Jim Jones (his title earned in an actual seminary, not from some online deal) and his 400 followers as proof that you want me to drink some poisoned beverage to attain heavenly grace?

There are terrible people in the world; some of them are Muslim.

There are uneducated idiots in the world; some of them are Muslim.

There are harsh and cruel people in the world; some of them are Muslim.

What do any of those people have to do with me and why am I - and my religion - blamed for those "some"?

Well, no need to answer. I already know what you will say.

Thanks again for the invitation. This has been a good conversation.

>>2014

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_256

"There is no consensus interpretation for this verse"

>According to us every other holy book god's send corrupted so no.

Why do you believe this?

How do you know the Qur'an is true, while others are false?

>>2014

The guns and gunpowder were invented by China. Chess and arabic numerals were invented by India. Very little new technology was ever invented by the Arabs, and most of what Europeans attribute to Arabs came from their conquering parts of more advanced countries like India, or from trade with the East. Islam probably held the Arabs back In science by limiting new thoughts.

>>2130

>Muslims always

>always

>Muslims = 1 person

Do I have to bother?

>ISIS

Stop pretending those idiots and thugs are in any way indicative of global Islam.

Makes about as much sense as asking, "Why do Christians always disrupt funerals with protests?" and putting up a pic of the WBC sign wavers. You know what the most beautiful thing about propaganda is? It spoon feeds you a comfortable narrative.

>If we only show thugs on TV, then they'll soon believe there's nothing but thugs

ISIS is comprised of about 30,000 people. That's it. That's not even Wal-Mart worthy population! But if you're going to let 30,000 people write your narrative concerning nearly 2 billion people, then there's nothing anyone can possibly do about it. 30k want to behead you, 1.7b want to share fellowship and harmony with you - but you claim they're all hivemind connected to that 30k.

I'm starting to think that Muslims aren't the problem. I'm starting to think it's time for you to examine the mote in your eye and stop worrying about the spec in another's.

>>2130

Isis isn't all that bad, frankly. Also, what purpose does that pyramid serve, other than being some tourist attraction?

>>2135

>Isis isn't all that bad, frankly.

Are you really an apologist for ISIS? Or is this a joke.

>>>/islam/6274

>The Quran is the words of God, Hadith are not. The Quran clearly says that Mohammed is merely human and we must not regard him as God or anything comparable to it. Of course your Hadith say otherwise.

Doesn't he have a point?

What is a hadith and why is it mandatory to follow it if it is not in the Quran?

Can't I just choose which I like best and are comforting me critically decide which I deem truths and which not?

————

What does rasullullah mean?

Why should I put my mother before my father?

What do you think about Israel?

>>2137

The jews couldn't stand something having a bigger nose then them

>>2298

“Obey Allah and the Messenger, so that you may be blessed.” (Qur’an 3:132)

“And obey Allah and His Messenger, if you are believers.” (Qur’an 8:1)

“O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not nullify your deeds.” (Qur’an 47:33)

Other verses are 4:59, 5:92, 8:20, 8:46, 24:54, 58:13 and 64:12.

Every single verse of the Holy Qur’an which speaks of the ‘Obedience to Allah’ without an exception mentions ‘Obedience to the Messenger’ as well.

You can't just decide which parts of Qur'an you'll follow and which you won't. You either follow it, or you do not.

Why is /islam/ okay to promote here but not /modernislam/ ?

>>2511

Because its bullshit?

Traditionalism or gtfo

>>2511

>implying

>>>/modernislam/

It is even worse than actual Islam though.

>>2298

>Doesn't he have a point?

>

>What is a hadith and why is it mandatory to follow it if it is not in the Quran?

>

>Can't I just choose which I like best and are comforting me critically decide which I deem truths and which not?

Can you answer that?

>What does rasullullah mean?

>Why should I put my mother before my father?

>What do you think about Israel?

Or those ?

Islam is a tough choice

you can't listen to music or enjoy life anymore, but you can marry children and fuck them.

Beating your wife is always an option open to you, and killing apostates.

Join us.

>>2579

>>2582

/thread

>>2511

/modernislam/ is welcome to post here if they so wish.