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File: 1434771555907.png (178.75 KB, 493x523, 493:523, Jesus!.png)

 No.2726

Are there any prophecies in the Bible that have actually, verifiably come true? And I don't mean

>prophecies whose fulfillment is only recorded in the Bible (especially if it's part of the same story in which the prophecy is delivered)

>prophecies that predicted something really vague

>prophecies that predicted something that was likely to happen eventually without giving a specific date

>prophecies that only came true because people knew about them and took actions to fulfill them on purpose or any other sort of self-fulfilling prophecy

Basically you should be able to use some common sense to tell if a prophecy "counts".

pic semi-related

 No.2727

>>2726

the old testament prophecied Jesus being crucified.


 No.2729

>>2727

Where?


 No.2730

>>2729

Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.


 No.2739

Other fedora here. There probably are some prophecies that can be interpretted to have came true. You had at least hundreds of prophets making vague proclamations, and even a broken clock is right twice a day. It's a matter of chance.

There are of course many prophecies that didn't come true, such as the birthplace of Jesus of Nazarus which required John to write that story about the stables of Bethlehem which wasn't included in the other Gospels. If he hadn't done so, the prophecy would have too obviously remained unfullfilled


 No.2740

>>2739

>hundreds of prophets

>Nazarus

>John to write that story about the stables of Bethlehem

What?

There's nowhere near a hundred prophets writing in the Bible. There's no such place as Nazarus. John didn't write anything about a stable in Bethlehem.


 No.2741

File: 1434916469737.jpg (15.44 KB, 400x300, 4:3, image.jpg)

>>2740

>I meant Nazareth

>the stable is where jesus was born because the rooms were full and Mary had no place else to sleep

>you don't believe the star of bethlehem appearred, moved through the sky, and guided the three wise men when it perched above the stable where Jesus was?

(This might have happened in Matthew, but not John. Christians can look it up and confirm if they want. Either way, the stable in Bethlehem was embellished into later gospels after Mark wrote the first gospel.)


 No.2742

>>2740

By hundreds of prophets I'm including all the guys whoose books were discarded and didn't make it into the bible, including the book of enoch, and other Jewish messiah figures. If you also include "false prophets" and the 250 or so prophets of Ba'al there are probably even more that were born in caanan.


 No.2745

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.


 No.2753

>>2730

Okay, first of all, wikipedia tells me that Jews don't even view these passages as being about the messiah. In fact, Psalm 22 isn't even explicitly written as a prophecy. In other words, that interpretation came only after Jesus's death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_22

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53

It's true that both chapters describe details surrounding Jesus's death that are also found in the gospels, such as people casting lots on his clothes, but it's possible that these were added to the story by the authors of the New Testament to make them resemble the Psalm and the Isaiah prophecy . Since Jesus's death aren't recorded anywhere other than the Bible, there's no way to know whether these details are accurate or not.

The way Isaiah 53 describes the Lord's servant being sacrificed for the sins of others also fits well with Christian doctrine about Christ, but that doctrine is an interpretation of Jesus's death that can't be empirically verified.


 No.2754

File: 1434932910872.jpg (31.04 KB, 300x255, 20:17, Tyre.jpg)

>>2745

This is more like the sort of thing I had in mind and the video makes it sound quite impressive, but I'm still not buying it.

>Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the mainland city

Fair enough, although it did take 13 years.

>The debris of the city would be thrown into the water

The video claims this was fulfilled by Alexander the Great but Ezekiel clearly means that it will be done by Nebuchadnezzar's army.

>From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[b] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.

"They" obviously means Nebuchadnezzar's army, not Alexander's. Even if you ignore that, the verse on its own makes clear that the people who destroy the city will be the same people who throw the debris into the water. Perhaps this is a matter of translation and the original text doesn't make it absolutely necessary to read it this way, but the implication is obvious. The entire passage is clearly meant to intimidate the people of Tyre about Nebuchadnezzar's attack. Why would God also deliver information about an unrelated attack hundreds of years later and not differentiate between the two? For all that the guy in the video praises the prophecy's specificity, that's a pretty serious omission.

>many nations came against them

This falls into the category of "something that was likely to happen eventually without giving a specific date"

>the island city was eventually destroyed by Muslims in 1291

Okay, the prophecy doesn't say that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the island city, only that the Lord would, so that part of the prophecy came true if taken at absolute face value (although that interpretation does imply that God was on the side of the Muslims for at least part of the Crusades, kek). Again though, based on the context and tone of the chapter, the destruction prophesied in Ezekiel is clearly meant to be imminent. The only reason to read it as predicting an event 1800 years in the future is because you want the prophecy to be true and that's the only way it can be. There's no evidence in the text itself to suggest that.

>the city would never be rebuilt

>except it was

>but it doesn't count because it's not the same city

Well of course it's not the same city if the earlier one was utterly destroyed. If building a new city with the same name in the same place doesn't count as rebuilding the city, then what does?

>b-but it's not in the exact same spot

It's on the same island (or former island, since it's now connected to the mainland). Ezekiel 26:14 says

>And I will make thee [Tyre] like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Notice that it refers to the island itself and not the city. Does it refer to just the part of the island that had a city on it at the time the book was written or to the whole island? It sounds like the latter to me but I guess this super specific prophecy fulfilled in a specific way isn't specific enough to say for sure.

>fishermen laying their nets

Wow, fishermen on an island, big surprise.


 No.2755

>>2753

I forgot to add, there's some stuff in Isaiah 53 that doesn't seem to fit with Jesus, like "he will have a multitude of children, many heirs".


 No.2758

File: 1434934552115.jpg (425.74 KB, 1425x1000, 57:40, Joseph_Smith_Liberty_Jail.jpg)

>>2755

>"he will have a multitude of children, many heirs".

>mfw

I'll be taking another look at that scripture, gracias.


 No.2845

http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

They name just thirteen here. Quite impressive tbh

I always liked that the bible predicted Alexander the Great and the Diadochees a couple of hundred years before him being born.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Alexander-the-Great.html


 No.3033

>>2753

>Okay, first of all, wikipedia tells me that Jews don't even view these passages as being about the messiah.

Well obviously, if they did then they would call themselves Christians (or at least Messianic Jews). That would be Survivorship Bias or something, wouldn't it? Christianity involves some reinterpretation of scripture; the revelation of the Christian narrative necessarily involves some re-reading/re-understanding of the old scripture in the light of this new revelation from God, imo. (This is all imo and based on my very amateur theological understanding, so don't take it as gospel.) In fact, when I look at it, it seems that the purpose of prophecies like these is *not* there to prepare people before the fact, but to show as a sign the fulfillment of the word by its verification.

So in one way I don't think you will get a fully satisfying answer to your question, if what you're looking for is a prophecy from which you could actually accurately predict what was going to happen if you were there at the time, like a character in a detective story. One big part of the Christian narrative (from what I can see) is that it took for Christ to come for the fuller extent of God's plan to actually become clear in the first place. There was the words of Jesus (in John) "I no longer call you servants, because a master doesn't confide in his servants; now you are my friends." And then in Galatians, a letter I quite like, Paul talks about how before Christ came we were like children, unable to use the father's inheritance until they reach the appropriate age and bound to the father's rules (the Law).

All of this probably won't convince you on anything, I just set forward the Christian position.

On the topic, The method of Peter's death comes to my mind. Depending on the dating of John's gospel that is, though I'm no scriptural scholar on the subject so I dunno. (But in determining the dating of it we mustn't fall into the trap of subconsciously using the premise that only naturalistic events are possible/no miracles (ie. no prophecies!), to help you date the writing from the evidence, then interpreting the writing to decide for yourself whether the miracle actually happened. I've lifted this reasoning from CS Lewis's "Miracles", which I like and you should read if interested, it's a very good and small book that sets out the Christian view on these sort of things.)


 No.3062

>>2753

>Okay, first of all, wikipedia tells me that Jews don't even view these passages as being about the messiah. In fact, Psalm 22 isn't even explicitly written as a prophecy. In other words, that interpretation came only after Jesus's death.

they do tho

But they dont view Jesus as the "one"

Fedora, what kind of proof are you looking for? intertestament stuff, or like "the bible predicted 9/11" kinda thing

I like to discuss with fedoras, there should a Fedora General thread like I used to do on the other board.

Should I start one?


 No.3074

>>3062

Yes.


 No.3093

File: 1435535620913-0.jpg (143.12 KB, 670x436, 335:218, image.jpg)

File: 1435535620914-1.jpg (17.12 KB, 479x207, 479:207, image.jpg)

>>3062

I forced myself to read through Narnia when I was in elementary school because someone bought me the whole series for my birthday. It had Santa Clause, polar bears, dumb whining kids that adults listened to, and hamfisted attempts to insert Christian themes into a long, but boring story. Even when I was in 4th grade I thought the talking animals, battles and characters were silly and ruined any attempt to take the epic or the author seriously. I'll respect the wisdom of my inner 10 year old, and continue to advise my acquaintances to pass on C.S. Lewis without regrets for the rest of my adult life.


 No.3097

File: 1435551755288.jpg (55.99 KB, 584x434, 292:217, image.jpg)

Last post is directed at

>>3033


 No.3197

>>3093

I never liked Narnia. I have no problem with fantasy or something. I just think the story sucks. Same with Harry Propper

>>2753

>Okay, first of all, wikipedia tells me that Jews don't even view these passages as being about the messiah.

They do, they just don't think Jesus is the messiah.

Next what you call jews is what is left over of ancient Judaism. The old rabbinical Pharisee cast that crucified Christ.

If they think something is true bears no relevance to Christianity whatsoever. They are also not the ancestor of Christianity, another common misconception.

>>3097

/christ/ is a tripfriendly board :^)


 No.3392

>>2753

>that interpretation came only after Jesus's death.

Yes, but the words are still there. Let it be known that Romans didn't normally nail those they crucified, nor did they do the whole mock-royalty deal as prophesied in that psalm.

I agree with what you said, but the psalm fitting what happened later is eerie at the very least.


 No.3393

>>2726

>>prophecies whose fulfillment is only recorded in the Bible (especially if it's part of the same story in which the prophecy is delivered)

I want to comment on this because it is actually unfair. The legitimacy of the books of the Bible is confirmed by historical research, and their having been put together in one volume doesn't mean they cannot be taken as a legit source of information. I understand your reasoning but please resist the urge to think the Bible is one book, because it really isn't.


 No.4557

>>3033 back again

>>3093

What are you even saying.

Lewis' non-fiction books are nothing like his fiction, particularly his children's fantasy books, so I don't see what that has to do with my post. I mean yes, they are related in that they are by the same author who has the same theology and everything. But even if you count those similarities, the criticisms you laid out very obviously have nothing whatever to do with his non-fiction/apologetics writing, so again I don't really know what you're trying to say.

If you are relying on your 10-year-old self's impression of those books as you laid out there, then you would have a very inaccurate view of his non-fiction writing.


 No.4560

>>4557

And I can't resist adding, obviously first of all questioning why you rely on your 10-year-old's impression in the first place. Well it seems clear from your writing that it's a very strong impression but even then I question the wisdom, in principle, of relying on judgement from such a very young age, so I think you are being unfair (compounding, obviously, the initial unfairness which would be unfair even if you said it today of making a judgement about something that isn't even really related to it as I said). Plus your 10-year-old impression doesn't even seem to be that accurate anyway. I haven't read all the Narnia books, but you've got

>long

each book is only about 100 pages or so, about novella length, as each book should be read and considered as a separate story (unlike say LotR which is a single novel which happened to be published in volumes)

>epic

Again not read them all, but I didn't get the impression that they were meant to be an Epic, just sort of children's fantasy, more like fairy tales. I personally think there's nothing wrong with silliness in a story and it's not bad a priori having something like talking animals in a story, maybe just not the sort of genre of story your 10-year-old self would've been attracted to, when even then it was probably too young for you. So please, don't let his children's books put you off even trying his other writings.


 No.4561

>>4557

I've also watched Battlefield Earth and it sucked. The writer couldn't make good points in that long movie any better than C.S. Lewis could in hundreds of pages of Narnia. Why should I choose to read the other work by the author of Scientology, who has already inflicted harm by robbing me of an afternoon in front of the tele, when there are millions of authors that have done me no wrong?


 No.4565

File: 1437100839666.jpg (3.16 MB, 4128x2322, 16:9, 20150716_193605.jpg)

Pic related. Anne McCaffery has been a safer bet for me, even if her titles include "The Dolphins of Perth."


 No.4566

>>4561

I couldn't really answer that question without just restating what I posted. Well what you said is basically a restatement. If you don't agree that it can be unfair to judge an author's non-fiction by a subset of that same author's fiction, or that some of an author's work can be bad and some of it good then fine, no need to just restate what you already said. All I can say is I liked and recommend the book I mentioned and think it's different enough from his Narnia books (in particular the things you didn't like about them) to say your dismissal was unfair, and leave it at that.


 No.4574

Narnia feels longer when you get bored, and when a kid gets bored reading a children's book you're doing something wrong. It had nothing to do with being a kid, because around 5th grade I read through Death Gate Cycle, which is much longer and aimed at an older audience, but I plowed through it because there were page-turning chapters, and it didn't feel as painfully boring as most of Narnia.

In my opinion the prequel, the first book, and the voyage of dawn treader were the better Narnia ones. I hated Prince Caspian which is set in the desert, and focuses on characters that remain unconnected with the rest of the series. After that the author must have realized he needed to recycle the same characters to generate interest, except the later books were the most forgettable ones.

There is also a theme of increasing degeneracy in the world of the later books, until the world is so 'tainted' that the holy lion can't save it without destroying it, but he then creates a new Narnia. Its starts as a melancholic ending, and you think that's the end of the world and lots of people will die, and that the main characters must go back to Earth for good, but then the lion abruptly says, "You can live here in the new Narnia forever, and then he saves every single good soul." I knew he was trying hard to push Christian theology into it, and I recognized bits like that, but it didn't excite me. Actually, I thought it was a copout ending and wasn't emotionally satisfied with it at the time, even if I couldn't fully articulate why.

In hindsight, his insistence on cramming Christian themes into the book to try and educate kids might have ruined the flow of the story, and made the conclusions more artificial.


 No.4576

>>4574

This is getting a little off-topic, and frankly not really what I was interested in talking about, so you should probably start a new thread on it (still not totally sure why you wrote that whole paragraph on Narnia in the first place well I actually I understand why you said you did, I just utterly disagree with the reasoning as I said), I've been trying to steer the conversation away from it or at least bring it to a close.




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