/christ/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>2760

I don't know what to believe.

>>2761

Are you non-denom or have a different background?

I'm sure I or another can help.

>>2760

>How many Catholics here believe that Mary was taken up to Heaven, body and soul, after her life came to an end?

This is not how Catholicism works.

If you are a Catholic you can't just pick and choose and make your own feel good Christianity, you follow all the teachings and believe them or you are not Catholic.

Also most apostolic Churches believe in this btw.

So yes I believe it.

I have never read an official apologetic to this but if I had to explain it:

We know that Jesus was without sin because God is a priori sinless and Jesus is God made flesh.

This also means that Jesus was free of original sin.

In order to be free of original sin he must not have inhereted it.

Therefore his mother must have been free of it as well.

Ergo -> God made Mary deliberately without sin to make it possible for her to bear Jesus.

So there is no reason for her to be not taken up to heaven directly, she would not taint it or something like that.

Next I wager that she would not have died a natural death anyway, like Jesus wouldn't have. But this is just an assumption.

>>2802

>If you are a Catholic you can't just pick and choose and make your own feel good Christianity,

I'm of the same mind as you, though for my own religion. However, I phrased the question the way I did because I'm interested in the opinions of all who *think* themselves Catholic, including Feeneyites, Sedevacantists, Conclavists, etc etc.

> God is a priori sinless and Jesus is God made flesh.

Ok, this makes sense. So this is a logical concussion rather than something that is mentioned explicitly in the Bible, founded on Trinitarianism.

>In order to be free of original sin he must not have inhereted it.

Ok, yes, Adam's original sin.

>God made Mary deliberately without sin to make it possible for her to bear Jesus.

Makes sense.

>So there is no reason for her to be not taken up to heaven directly,

Is there a reason *for* it though. I'm trying to understand. Does this mean that Mary was sinless throughout her entire life, or just until she birthed Jesus? If her entire purpose was to birth Christ and, for that purpose, she was made sinless, why wasn't she (we call it translated) taken to Heaven immediately after Christ's death?

>Next I wager that she would not have died a natural death anyway,

Its Catholic belief that people who are either saints in life or somehow close to sinless won't decompose for a longer period of time than the average person, right? Does the Catholic Church have any beliefs as to the fate of Mary after Christ's earthly life?

>>2824

>>2824

>Is there a reason *for* it though. I'm trying to understand.

She lead a holy life, isn't this reason enough :^)

>Does this mean that Mary was sinless throughout her entire life,

Yes.

>If her entire purpose was to birth Christ

Was it? She was a human after all, do we have purposes?

Also she raised him and her step children.

>Its Catholic belief that people who are either saints in life or somehow close to sinless won't decompose for a longer period of time than the average person, right?

…. I'd hear this for the first time.

>Does the Catholic Church have any beliefs as to the fate of Mary after Christ's earthly life?

She's a Saint and Queen of the heavens now.

She cares much for humanity and appears often and try to help us.

>>2842

>She lead a holy life, isn't this reason enough :^)

I wouldn't think so. Then again, its not like its a senseless idea, I can see it.

>Mary sinless her entire life

>Also she raised him and her step children.

Does this mean that she and Joseph never had any non-divine biological children after Jesus Christ was born?

>…. I'd hear this for the first time.

Yeah, I found out about it through the Cathordodoxy at the other site. Its called being "incorruptible".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility

> Queen of the heavens now.

What does this entail? Does she have any manner of authority in Heaven? Is this what allows her to intercede in the behalf of mortals when they pray for her to do so?

>>2864

>Does this mean that she and Joseph never had any non-divine biological children after Jesus Christ was born?

Mary was a virgin her whole life.

>What does this entail?

It is in honorary title for the most part. In Israel the real Queen was not one of the wifes of the king but his mother.

In heaven Jesus is King and Mary his mother.

> Is this what allows her to intercede in the behalf of mortals when they pray for her to do so?

Essentially all Saints can do that, but she is special of course. She was the human chosen by God to bear his son after all.

>Its called being "incorruptible".

Now that I think about it it is true of course. Just think about all the reliquiae that do not just rott away.

Here we have a bottle of Jesus' blood that's old a couple of hundred years now and still fluid for example.

>>2802

But how can Mary be without sin if her mother is sinful?

See the flaw?

Only Jesus was without sin, being born of a virgin, not having a human father to inherit his sinful nature, being the son and embodiment of a righteous God.

Mary lived, died and was buried like any human being and being redeemed by the blood of Christ she went to heaven worshiping Jesus with the other redeemed souls and angels.

>>2760

As a Baptist I think that she died like everyone else. Apostolics give her far too much importance.

>>3174

Do you believe in the Immaculate Conception then or no? If you could, would you also say your beliefs on the ideas of Mary being sinless her entire life, or that of her having children after the birth of Christ?

>>3174

Is it really so hard to imagine that a woman could lead a sinless life?

>>3180

Aside from the fact that Mary admits to being in need of a savior in Luke 1:47?

Sinless people do not need a savior.

All who don't believe in Mary's Assumption are heretics

>>3239

Do you have biblical evidence to back that up?

After the virgin gave birth to Christ, she eventually had sex with Joseph and had more kids.

>>3241

>Do you have biblical evidence to back that up?

Implying one would need that.

>>3246

You'd need some sort of evidence, though.

>>2802

>If you are a Catholic you can't just pick and choose and make your own feel good Christianity, you follow all the teachings and believe them or you are not Catholic.

Then, most likely, 99% of Catholics aren't Catholics. There are things you can take on faith and sort of accept it as is, but you can't force yourself into believing something you can't believe. When Thomas said He wouldn't believe Christ was alive unless he could finger his wounds, Christ didn't respond, "If you are Christian, you believe what you're told and if you don't, you are no Christian." And it's not like all Catholics, even in high places, share the same opinions either. The Church isn't dead intellectually and it isn't static either, so far as I understand.

>So there is no reason for her to be not taken up to heaven directly, she would not taint it or something like that.

I think OP means the act of being physically taken, not so much whether she was without sin or anything.

This Ascension stuff makes me very perplex: how do you reach Heaven by just going up? How high does one go and what happens then?

I mean, we all agree that Heaven isn't the sky, so at some point, after ascending, something must happen, you don't just go into space. So what happens? Something like teleportation? If the very body of Mary goes straight to Heaven, what does that say for everyone who gets buried or incinirated?

>>2842

>…. I'd hear this for the first time.

Plenty of saints supposedly didn't decompose, but if you look at them, they're virtually entirely made of wax: Pio, Soubirou, etc. I used to believe in this stuff but no longer, sadly.

>>2868

>Here we have a bottle of Jesus' blood that's old a couple of hundred years now and still fluid for example.

In Bruges? If it's Christ's blood, shouldn't it be older?

Also, why doesn't the Church allow this blood to be tested? I heard it became fluid again at certain times because of the change in temperature.

I'm always up for some miracles though, not trying to be an annoying skeptic.

>>3138

>But how can Mary be without sin if her mother is sinful?

She's the Immaculate Conception, that means God conceived her in the womb, without sin. Whether this means her parents had sex or not, I don't know. I suppose they did, otherwise Christ could have been directly "sent" to Mary without further preparations.

>not having a human father to inherit his sinful nature

In Jewish tradition, you inherit Jewishness from your mother (could be wrong).

Your view of Mary is a little too belittling of her. Even non-Catholics recognise her as something special. She's the literal Mother of God.

>>3180

If Christ could, I guess it's technically possible, but Christ is God. It depends what you mean by sin, but going by Paul's words, it sounds pretty impossible to avoid sin.

>Aside from the fact that Mary admits to being in need of a savior in Luke 1:47?

Snap… Although you could argue God saved her already when He conceived her without sin. I don't know. Perhaps "saviour" is translated from "messiah", which doesn't necessarly entail that she was with sin. Just guessing.

>>3239

Thanks for that magnificent post. Constructive and all.

>>3241

That certainly is what it sounds like from the gospels. Some argue these were Joseph's children from a first marriage, but I don't know where this comes from.

>>3271

The evidence we have is that the brothers of Christ are in the gospel. Interpretation of that varies. See the above post.