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File: 1435168205647.jpg (27.68 KB, 487x300, 487:300, Law_of_Abraham.jpg)

 No.2865

We discuss polygamy, and the various interpretations by the users of this board.

Does polygamy have any redeeming spiritual qualities? Does it have any positive pragmatic reasons for it to be practiced?

Likewise, what are the dangers and negatives associated with the practice? What are some Biblical views on the practice, both OT and NT?

This one is strictly about one man marrying multiple women, never the other way around.

>inb4 of course Mormon

I'm interested in other views other than LDS stuff; though its a free board.

 No.2867

>>2865

>Does polygamy have any redeeming spiritual qualities?

No

> Does it have any positive pragmatic reasons for it to be practiced?

No

>Likewise, what are the dangers and negatives associated with the practice?

Most men can't even handle one wife. Having more than one would be a complete mess. Then the amount of children…

Also it would leave less desirable men without a match.

>This one is strictly about one man marrying multiple women, never the other way around.

Why ;^) ?


 No.2872

File: 1435188618538.png (217.45 KB, 700x400, 7:4, Moroni_Swastika.png)

>>2867

>First no

We'll agree to disagree

>Second no

Here I do have to put on my SS hat with the "14/88 keep up the h8 m8" signature by Ben Garrison and say why not?

I mean, this isn't something that ALL men in society would do, that'd defeat the purpose; its something for the elite. There's something wrong in our society when some dime-store hood rat will have 8 kids by 8 different men and be taken care of by the gov, while our best and brightest have much fewer than that. I love the idea of one man, whether he be inspired or not, who is just…great, having many a wife and producing a generation of amazing humans; genetically yes but also culturally.

The idea of a fraction of men simply not reproducing due to being unable to find a mate is just a pleasant side effect.

>Why ;^) ?

Logistics, mostly. One man may impregnate many a woman but not the other way around.

Also, I'd have a hard time ever seen a woman as the head of the household. Seems odd and unpleasant.

But, what are the attitudes towards plural marriage in the Bible? Particularly in the OT it seems like it always (or more often than not) end sort of badly for people who do it without express consent from God. Also, I'd imagine just historically speaking that the Hebrews would be averse to it because it was (I mean kind of, concubines right?) practiced by the kings of their enemies and such.


 No.2873

The OT enabled it (see Abraham, David or Solomon.) The NT discouraged it due to an influx of Roman influence in occupied Israel, and the Romans were monogolous.

I don't have a stance either way and see it as a cultural decision.


 No.2888

Most of the arguments against it are unfounded from a scriptural perspective, to the point even mister sola scripture ML couldn't dispute it.

Moral arguments also fall flat pretty badly. The 'strongest' one is "Then degenerate men who just want to collect wives will be able to!"

The problem with that is most men (namely the ones who oppose polygamy) are still collecting wives, just a collection of one. The same exact mentality is already present, of what I call "jealous ownership". Rather than "total partnership".

Anyone who argues "You can't love them as much as you could focusing love on one person!", by that logic people should have as few friends as they can so they can focus their friendship, or STOP having kids past one, because you can never love all your kids totally and equally. Anyone who is a parent can tell you how stupid that would sound to say you can't love your kids as much because you have multiple.

Pragmatically, there are massive advantages in the current western world. That's three incomes, where many logistical cost don't scale (housing is one of them. Increased size in lodging does not scale linearly). Not to mention household activities (cooking also doesn't scale linearly, it's almost the same amount of work cooking for yourself as it is ten people for example). Also other coordinated efforts that you never realized were a pain in the ass become simple.

This all said, you are probably expecting me to argue for the cultural advancement of polygamy.

I do not.

Monogamy has the one major advantage of allowing the "beta" males a chance at reproduction, non-competition with occupied "alphas" (I put these terms in quotes because they are slang terms), and thus gives an incentive for the betas to be economically and socially productive. There have been several studies of this, where they found monogamous societys, ceteris parabis, were just more economically participative than polygamous ones. The reason is obvious: Unless you are at the top of the social food chain, your chance of reproduction drops pretty hard.

Not to mention the threat it poses to people with relationships built on weak foundations: just existing, the alpha threatens your relationship because (at least until he is at max capacity), you are always going to be competing with him.

Think of it this way, if there are 10 men and 10 woman, and all the woman want the top male, in polgamy he might take five of them. Now the other 9 men need to compete for the remaining 5. So you now have to be in the top half of that group in terms of quality to even have a chance if the rest spread out evenly. In reality the next top guy could take the majority of the rest (if he were so inclined).

In monogamy, in theory even the guy at the bottom at least stands a chance. Once everyone takes a wife and the last guy gets the scraps, he simply has to be good enough that she will "settle" for him.

So overall, I think it's something that needs to stay in place as a social convention, for the sake of stability. And, quite honestly, the violent rebuke to it by a majority of men is predictable. It represents an existential threat to the majority of mens relationships. Not just because of the above game-theory threat, but also to the innate quality of their relationship. "I'm fighting with my wife constantly, we aren't sexually attracted to each other, there is no connection, we aren't enjoy able to be around, and then that guy has two or three wives who all get along, grow and do meaningful things together, can support each other, etc".

That's sort of my view in a nutshell.


 No.2928

>>2888

>Most of the arguments against it are unfounded from a scriptural perspective,

That's good to hear!

> Also other coordinated efforts that you never realized were a pain in the ass become simple.

My thinking exactly. The whole shebang seems to be very practical and positive.

>Monogamy has the one major advantage of allowing the "beta" males a chance at reproduction, non-competition with occupied "alphas

I would disagree with this being a bad thing. The idea of the "better man" getting to reproduce while those of a lesser caliber living their lives and simply not doing so is a positive for society.

Although, if the system were to be implemented right now it would not be what I had in mind. Firstly because this society praises degeneracy, corruption, selfishness and greed. Were this to happen, we'd simply have men like George Soros, Sheldon Adelson or other Jews accumulating wives and producing more of their wretched ilk, while the moral men would get none. That would be ruination.

In the hypothetical scenario in which society is already established to promote decency, hard work, proper morality, the triumph of the will, meritocracy and all that, THEN in that scenario do I think that polygamy would be a great boost. In that scenario, the beta would be so because he can't meet the above mentioned criteria, and if he can't then its a good idea he doesn't reproduce.

He could still contribute to society in some other way, and find happiness as a monk, an astronomer or (if he's depraved) some kind of boy hooker for foreign dignitaries. The idea would be to provide the nest generation with the best possible genetic head start, and then let them compete among themselves to promote the greatest to the top, commencing the cycle again.


 No.3023

>>2872

>I mean, this isn't something that ALL men in society would do, that'd defeat the purpose; its something for the elite. There's something wrong in our society when some dime-store hood rat will have 8 kids by 8 different men and be taken care of by the gov, while our best and brightest have much fewer than that. I love the idea of one man, whether he be inspired or not, who is just…great, having many a wife and producing a generation of amazing humans; genetically yes but also culturally.

A family of several women and one man is not what is supposed to be done. It is made obvious that God does prefer 1:1

>>2888

>Most of the arguments against it are unfounded from a scriptural perspective, to the point even mister sola scripture ML couldn't dispute it.

One can "prove" it with biblical evidence but this is also unnecessary. Sola Scripture is unbiblical and not all truth is in the bible.

>>2928

>I would disagree with this being a bad thing. The idea of the "better man" getting to reproduce while those of a lesser caliber living their lives and simply not doing so is a positive for society.

The implication that wealthier people would be superior is just wrong.

Polygamy destructs society like other degeneracy does. If we stranded on a lonely Island with 2 guys and 15 women it would be ok maybe. But not like this.


 No.3026

File: 1435384178208.jpg (60.07 KB, 1024x612, 256:153, Sheldon_Adelson.jpg)

>>3023

>It is made obvious that God does prefer 1:1

I personally don't believe that, though I'll readily admit right now that I'm not sure I could put together something convincing using only Scripture, and even though I agree with this statement:

>Sola Scripture is unbiblical and not all truth is in the bible.

I have a feeling the rest I could find would not have much effect on you, so instead let's keep it on neutral ground.

>The implication that wealthier people would be superior is just wrong.

If that is what you understood from my post then either I wrote it incorrectly and I apologize, or you've made I mistake. I made sure to point out that;were we to start practicing plural marriage TODAY; it would simply lead to the wealthy and powerful producing more of their ilk, which is not desirable precisely because this society promotes degeneracy and wickedness to the top, not good values.

I stated that, in the hypothetical society where the most Christ-like the person (or at least most righteous, like the Apostles or Martys or Saints), the more successful they are and the higher up the societal scale they go. Notice this isn't about physical wealth, its about strength of character, morality, will power and genetic predisposition.

You take a guy who's smart, brave, strong, corageous, generous and kind. He then marries lets say 3 or 5 women, and raises his many many children to be like him. You now have a generation of children who have a genetic advantage, a cultural advantage and the advantage of heroic parentage and example.

This is how I envision it, at least. I don't believe that it plural marriage were to be practiced according to the values of the Gospel, that it would be a wicked and foul thing.

>Pic related. The exact opposite of the man I envision practicing polygamy.


 No.3031

>>2872

>Here I do have to put on my SS hat with the "14/88 keep up the h8 m8"

I don't know if you are asking from a christian perspective or from a general perspective.

From a christian perspective, /pol/ is absolute cancer and is the antithesis of what a Christian life is . Now I am not getting into whether Nazis where Christians or pagans. I am not judging people, that is the exclusive function of the Lord but I do have a responsibility to recognize evil, and Nazis and /pol/ are evil. I want nothing to do with either of them.

From a christian perspective it is wrong to take more than one wife. Simple reason is the children. From my experience children are happier growing up in monogamous families provided they are functional. Marriage is about children. It is about sacrifice. It is about sacrificing some of your wants for the little ones. you may be personally happy to take on another woman but your children will be unhappy to see the love between you and their mother split with some strange woman


 No.3032

>>3031

oops sorry for double post.


 No.3054

File: 1435502734022.jpg (906.49 KB, 1920x1080, 16:9, joseph-fielding-smith.jpg)

>>3031

>I don't know if you are asking from a christian perspective or from a general perspective.

Both.

>/pol/ is absolute cancer and is the antithesis of what a Christian life is .

I'd disagree, and I think you would too if you have it a chance. /pol/ is full of good Christians, and also good men of moral character who recognize how rotten the world is, but since they don't know Christ they turn bitter and angry. And yet, they're better than most men who live in blessed ignorance of Jewish machinations and Satanic influence, because they do see.

>and Nazis and /pol/ are evil.

I'd also disagree with this. Though, the good thing about the Nazis being dead is that you may simply do as I do, and pick and choose what you adopt from them. Adopt the anti-smoking stuff, the strong moral character, the determination, the strong cultural pride. Reject the anti-christian stuff, and anything else you dislike, there's nothing wrong with this.

Still, that 14/88 thing was a joke, since the idea of mating the best men with as many women as possible to produce genetically and culturally superior offspring does seem very fascist, doesn't it?

>From my experience children are happier growing up in monogamous families provided they are functional.

I'd ask how many polygamous relationships you've come across. I think it would be hard to gauge happiness, but I could offer examples of success. The man in this picture is Joseph Fielding Smith and;regardless of what you believe about his faith; he grew up in a polygamous household and went on to be a fulfilled, productive and successful individual. He's one of the little boys in the original picture.

>you may be personally happy to take on another woman but your children will be unhappy to see the love between you and their mother split with some strange woman

Love can exist between more that two people. I don't think that this is how it always must be, especially if a man is righteous and so are his wives. If anything, there'd be even more help around the house and more motherly love to go around in a household with more mothers. These aren't concubines, they're not for sex and pleasure alone, they're for fulfilling commandments, bringing forth children and creating a strong household to instruct the next generation of men and women.


 No.3395

So far as I can tell, the Bible is strictly polygamous, Christ never suggests changing polygamy, and the only reason why Christians are monogamous today is because the early Church, when it became a state religion, adopted many of the Roman practices, including monogamy, which is what Romans did, not what Hebrews did.

In other words, Christian marriage is the result of being so close to a pagan culture.

Defenders of monogamy will argue that God intended it this way, that contact with a pagan custom such as monogamy was intended by Providence and that's how they solve that.

I don't think much of that argument as it can be used for anything that comes after Christ and isn't directly mentioned by Him.

The purpose of polygamy (mind that polygamy always means "many wives", as the opposite would be polyandry, I think) is very pragmatical: while a woman takes 9 months to deliver a baby, a man can impregnate as many women as he can ejaculate into. Family was way more a social structure and men were central to it, therefore a man was in charge of many women.


 No.3496

>>2865

>Does polygamy have any redeeming spiritual qualities?

I doubt it.

>Does it have any positive pragmatic reasons for it to be practiced?

Yes, but only in a situation where you're trying to fill a planet with your people's young. Of course, that hasn't been a problem for quite some time, now.

>Likewise, what are the dangers and negatives associated with the practice?

They'll synchronize their periods and decide to kill you when you forget to compliment them on their hair.


 No.3640

File: 1436220659873.gif (497.16 KB, 245x200, 49:40, 1398436664045.gif)

>>3496

>They'll synchronize their periods and decide to kill you when you forget to compliment them on their hair.


 No.7602

Let's say I did several women and two are pregnant.

Am I not obliged to marry them both?


 No.7643

>>7602

I don't think so. I mean, assuming that the law only permits for you to marry one, and I do think that with the exception of 19th century Mormonism you can only do this once in any Orthodox Christian sect, you would simply have that sin forever in your "tally mark sheet" and you would just have to rely on the grace of Christ to make up for it, as well as doing all that you can to take care of your bastard child.


 No.7661

>>2865

I dunno, the fact that God has visited the curse of genetic disease upon polygamous fundamentalist mormons should tell all as to the spiritual benefits of this most vile of practices.


 No.7663


 No.7672

>>7643

And let's say I'm a pagan, and I have several wives and children with each.

Now I wanna convert.

What am I supposed to do? How was this handled, I mean Christianity was spread into heathen countries after all, this is not hypothetical.


 No.7675

>>7663

uh, yeah. Turns out, when you limit the breeding pool by making all of a given cohort be the offspring of a limited pool of males, you increase the chances of incidental incest.

This leads to the expression of genetic diseases. For instance, over half the world's cases of fumurase difficiency (also called "polygamist's downs") occur within two populations of FLDS polygamists living in the american southwest.

God literally has cursed them for their foul practices.

>http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/06/14/us-usa-mormons-genes-idUSN0727298120070614

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumarase_deficiency


 No.7684

File: 1446565199277.jpg (267.29 KB, 1350x2017, 1350:2017, Ellen_Page.jpg)

>>7675

Not that the Fundies aren't retarded, even the ones who aren't diseased, but I'd like to probe that line of thinking further.

If its God who has cursed them with these diseases, what is the explanation for individuals elsewhere suffering from congenital birth defects? Children with such diseases are born to Christian parents all the time, and it becomes especially difficult to endure in 3rd world countries.

How does that work then? Are congenital defects God's own hand passing judgment in some instances and random, unpredictable accidents (that no one is to blame for) in other cases?


 No.7685

File: 1446565505240.jpg (78.52 KB, 576x720, 4:5, Black_Mormons.jpg)

>>7672

I remember reading about this subject which is still an issue in Africa and India, where Muslim morality allows for men to have multiple wives, and when they convert to Christianity then there are issues. The solution is dependent on the specific church.

Some say its necessary for the man to simply distance himself from all but one wife, and that this is not divorce because they were never really married. They are to pray for forgiveness for their adultery.

Other Christian groups would say divorce (for if you have sex, children and have been living together, you are married) is worse than polygamy, so you give preference to that commandment and allow the man to keep all his wives and welcome them into the fold.


 No.7692

>>7675

If Polygamy was logically harmless but we unexplainably had a higher rate of genetic defects then this line of thinking might make sense if one were a believer. However, what you're describing here is a completely natural explanation. In theory as long as you were very careful to research family trees and whatnot Polygamy would be harmless.

So I guess I'm just asking. How are you supposed to determine what is a direct punishment from god rather than just humans fucking up and being stupid?


 No.7695

>>7692

>So I guess I'm just asking. How are you supposed to determine what is a direct punishment from god rather than just humans fucking up and being stupid?

Implying there is a difference between the two.


 No.7697

>>7695

A hypothetical:

An average Christian (let's say Protestant, for the sake of the example) marriage produces an offspring suffering from spina bifida and hydrocephalus, which renders the child unable to walk and necessitating regular drainage of fluid. The couple was your average Christian marriage, occasionally sinning but repented, people you would not consider evil.

Is the congenital defect a curse from God? Is it a curse upon the parents and the child for the action of the parents, or is the child somehow responsible as well? Is this the case for every disease of that kind?

>>7692

> In theory as long as you were very careful to research family trees and whatnot Polygamy would be harmless.

This is still the practice in many rural areas of Idaho, Montana and Utah, where the current inhabitants are direct descendants of the polygamous founders during the 1800's. This is the case despite the fact that polygamy has been gone there since 1890. Surely escaping the judgement of Gd can't be as easy as taking pen and pencil and keeping track of who sleeps with who.


 No.7700

>>7697

>Is the congenital defect a curse from God? Is it a curse upon the parents and the child for the action of the parents, or is the child somehow responsible as well? Is this the case for every disease of that kind?

Indeed. I'm too old to still believe in coincidence by now. Everything happens for a reason, some people are luckier than others.

I see it mentioned often that God loves all people.

But never has anyone implied that he loves all people the same, that's something humans like to add by themselve.

Maybe that's all there is to it.

>This is still the practice in many rural areas of Idaho, Montana and Utah, where the current inhabitants are direct descendants of the polygamous founders during the 1800's. This is the case despite the fact that polygamy has been gone there since 1890. Surely escaping the judgement of Gd can't be as easy as taking pen and pencil and keeping track of who sleeps with who.

You are meming yourself into mormonism, then why in the shitty monogamous one?


 No.7705

>>7692

>In theory as long as you were very careful to research family trees and whatnot Polygamy would be harmless.

if you were to do this, all it would do is clue you in on how small your valid breeding population is. you would still hit the same wall where you realise that you either need to find new members lest you face extinction or degeneration.

>>7684

I think you're making a false equivalence in order to justify the idiocy if your cult.

no, not all disease is judgement, but it is demonstrable that polygamy causes disease; that is, the practice so offends god that it is intrinsically present in the mechanisms of creation itself that from the outset, god has stacked it to fail.

do good people receive deformed children? yes, of course, but for the glory of God! the good person cares for the deformity and shows their piety in this. at the same time, though, the evil are cursed with it to punish their iniquities, as it is in AIDS, or fetal alcohol syndrome, and in the case of Polygamist's downs, the sin which proceeds the curse stands out as so obvious that it almost cannot be a testament to the glory of God that these people suffer, but as punishment for the grave sin which causes their ills.


 No.7710

File: 1446580622273.jpg (50.48 KB, 682x400, 341:200, FLDS_ladies.jpg)

>>7700

How does that make sense if you reject the idea of a pre-mortal life? If you didn't live any life previous to this one, how does God judge you and distribute punishment and praise accordingly? Does he make you shitty and then punish you?

>You are meming yourself into mormonism, then why in the shitty monogamous one?

Lol that's the other anon not me. But some kek worthy reasons would be:

1. I got that nigga blood in my veins and they aren't cool with that.

2. FLDS ladies look like this.


 No.7711

File: 1446581005173.jpg (48.1 KB, 490x490, 1:1, jon snow laughs.jpg)

>>7705

>Implying FLDS is my cult of choice

Listen here son, Deseret ain't free. The Tree of Life gotta be littered with the blood atonement of apostates. Warren "Lolcow* Jeffs a.k.a Shake and Bake is not my prophet. He is a heretic schismatic and probably a little black as well :DD Monson and Hickley not Rulon and Warren ok? Praise Joseph Smith

>do good people receive deformed children? yes, of course, but for the glory of God!

So people can get remarkably similar diseases, if not the exact same ones, but sometimes its God saying "Hey you stop that shit" and sometimes its God saying "hey, keep up the good work!"?

I'm digging this new meme, but I don't know how people who seriously believe in God might feel about this.


 No.7712

>>7710

no wonder they married a dozen of those, dam


 No.7716

File: 1446582138354.jpg (114.57 KB, 650x434, 325:217, FLDS_Babies.jpg)

>>7712

Well a lot of times when they get married (or diddled in the case of the boys) they look like this so they kind of ferment under the leadership of their Prophet.

Its really quite tragic and I'm finding it hard to keep thinking about it because its actually a rather upsetting reality.The municipal and local governments are complicit in all the nasty nonsense that goes on behind those compounds so its often pretty hard to help these people.


 No.7717

>>7705

It's not as if the genes are recognizing they're involved in a polygamous relationship and mutate, it's just that if done irresponsibly you lack genetic diversity. This happens in a lot of different populations though, not just polygamous ones. I mean if birth defects are evidence of God's displeasure than the amish are some evil bastards.

Personally, I'm not quite sold on the idea of a god rigging the mechanics of genetic evolution and procreation to afflict polygamists. What a sloppy strategy too, seeing as how it affects far more innocents.


 No.7721

>>7710

>How does that make sense if you reject the idea of a pre-mortal life? If you didn't live any life previous to this one, how does God judge you and distribute punishment and praise accordingly? Does he make you shitty and then punish you?

Why call it punishment?

If you have two sons, and you decide for one of them to be your heir, and for the other one to be nothing, is this a punishment?

No.

If both of your sons ask you for a favour, but you grant this favour only your favourite son, are you punishing the other?

No.

I see where you want to go with the pre mortal life thing. I do not claim to understand why God does what he does, but this one seems to me the only logical explanation.

>2. FLDS ladies look like this.

t-that's some lovely young ladies…

>>7716

I can see how polygamy can be interesting and worthwhile.

But when I think of it I'd apply it in an archaic society. Warrior like or anything else (if there even is) that demands similar honest competition.

Then there needs to be free choice for either the woman (lol no ) or her father/brother/whoever owns her. Like this it can be ensured that the best choice is made.

But not like they do it. Not with a central commitee/prophet that's full of nepotism and that based on political/tribal ideas takes control of all the young women and excludes all young men. That's insane, that's almost dysgenics. This way it is literally harmful.

>>7717

>It's not as if the genes are recognizing they're involved in a polygamous relationship and mutate, it's just that if done irresponsibly you lack genetic diversity. This happens in a lot of different populations though, not just polygamous ones. I mean if birth defects are evidence of God's displeasure than the amish are some evil bastards.

Maybe God hates irresponsibly lacking genetic diversity and that's why he created the world like this? huh?

>What a sloppy strategy too, seeing as how it affects far more innocents.

>innocents

I dislike this word.


 No.7724

File: 1446593872666.jpg (15.62 KB, 344x242, 172:121, Jar-Jar.jpg)

>>7721

> is this a punishment?

Yeah, I'd say so, because it has nothing to do with actions or qualities, since you don't exist until God makes you , and according to you sometimes he makes people shitty because he doesn't like them, and then he doesn't like them because they suck.

At least with the pre-mortal life of mormonism you get a nice escapist argument, wherein you put the blame on the individual (although its just as much mystical bs). Here you just have to accept that God hated you before he even made you.

>This way it is literally harmful.

It is. Jeffs and his councilors take all the ladies they want (and by ladies I also mean 12 year olds and the like), using them as a sort of reward system, while young men are usually expulsed from the community for nonsense reasons to avoid a revolutionary niche forming within the community.

>Maybe God hates irresponsibly lacking genetic diversity and that's why he created the world like this? huh?

The problem here is trying to horseshoe God into an equation that functions just fine on its own.

>I dislike this word.

Is there no such thing as innocence in the world? What about the children?


 No.7725

>>7721

Those innocent of polygamy anyway. Genetic bottlenecks happen among people who don't engage in polygamy and don't punish those who are careful to avoid it. If it's a scheme to punish polygamists it's one of the worst imaginable.


 No.7728

File: 1446603948820.jpg (1.56 MB, 2431x1458, 2431:1458, Cleanest_Race.jpg)

>>7725

More to the point, the perpetrators of the actual "crime" aren't really affected when compared to the children, whom again are getting shafted majorly despite not doing a thing. No boils or locust or anything like that for Jeffs, but damn, that'll teach his kids not to be born into such a heretical lineage.

I really hope this is just a meme.


 No.7732

>>7724

>Yeah, I'd say so, because it has nothing to do with actions or qualities

That's exactly why it is no punishment. The reason for punishments are actions (not qualities, usually). Without any action it can't be a punishment, it is just the case then.

>according to you sometimes he makes people shitty because he doesn't like them, and then he doesn't like them because they suck.

I see no problem here.

>Here you just have to accept that God hated you before he even made you.

Nonono he loves all people. He just loves some not as much as others, why would God create something he hates?

>The problem here is trying to horseshoe God into an equation that functions just fine on its own.

God created the universe and wants it to work like that, I do not see how anything could work on its own.

>Is there no such thing as innocence in the world?

As an ideal concept abstract from reality there is, otherwise we couldn't talk about it.

>What about the children?

Children are cruel as fuck and know no morality.

They are also the incarnation of egocentrism.

>>7725

>Those innocent of polygamy anyway. Genetic bottlenecks happen among people who don't engage in polygamy and don't punish those who are careful to avoid it. If it's a scheme to punish polygamists it's one of the worst imaginable.

>if it's a scheme to

How would I know? It is a scheme, because it was meant like this and is not arbitrary. But what the reasoning behand this could be, or if there are several, it is just beyond me…

>>7728

>More to the point, the perpetrators of the actual "crime" aren't really affected when compared to the children

Tell the Pharao about that thing, where your children cannot be punished for your actions ;^)


 No.7741

File: 1446660267601.jpg (1004.88 KB, 1920x1280, 3:2, Thomas_S_Monson.jpg)

>>7732

>That's exactly why it is no punishment.

>I see no problem here.

It sounds very much like God behaves in a way that is contrary to our logic, his creation, and that to be okay with these actions you have to either adopt a deist view or to actively suppress cause-effect logical thinking.

>Nonono he loves all people. He just loves some not as much as others, why would God create something he hates?

>God created the universe and wants it to work like that, I do not see how anything could work on its own.

Lol, top kek pal.

>Children are cruel as fuck and know no morality.

We again fall into the issue of children being punished from birth for things that they never did; either random hatred from God (or less love, as you put it) or being punished for the actions of other people.

> But what the reasoning behand this could be, or if there are several, it is just beyond me…

You can only suspend your disbelief for so long man, believe me.

>Tell the Pharao about that thing, where your children cannot be punished for your actions ;^)

Interestingly enough, that story gets brought up as an example of God's evil nature by fedoras, but it looks pretty damn reasonable compared to the modern claims. At least here God has a distinct complaint, he communicates that effectively through his prophets to Pharaoh, and gives him several opportunities to change his behavior before resorting to infanticide.

Something became awful since the coming of Christ then, because now God doesn't talk at all and children can be indiscriminately made to suffer either as curse for their parent's sins or a blessing for their parent's reverence (again, makes zero sense.)


 No.7743

>>7741

>It sounds very much like God behaves in a way that is contrary to our logic, his creation, and that to be okay with these actions you have to either adopt a deist view or to actively suppress cause-effect logical thinking.

I do not see how any of this is contrary to logic, I admitted though that it is counter intuitive

>We again fall into the issue of children being punished from birth for things that they never did; either random hatred from God (or less love, as you put it) or being punished for the actions of other people.

>being punished for the actions of other people.

Like original sin? aw snap

>and children can be indiscriminately made to suffer either as curse for their parent's sins or a blessing for their parent's reverence (again, makes zero sense.)

Why does this make no sense?

Why do things have to be monocausual?


 No.7753

File: 1446743886001.jpg (182.61 KB, 650x552, 325:276, Garden_of_Eden.jpg)

>>7743

It is contrary to cause and effect relationships and it is inconsistent with the view of God most Christian denominations seem to espouse. It being "counter intuitive" is an understatement. It makes God sound like a schizophrenia who actively acts against his own well being. Or worse, sadistic.

>Like original sin? aw snap

>Implying this actually happened.

Still, that idea is actually more sound than what we were discussing, but its incompatible with this idea that God makes people shitty on purpose, or rather "for his own mysterious purpose". This is like the pre-mortal life which shifts the fault of suffering to the individual. Problem is, its still seemingly random, as different people can be born with different degrees of sin and misfortune completely independent of their own will or the will of their parents, so much like the Mormon doctrine it is an escapist argument. "Its your fault you suck, not Gods", similar to the Hindu belief that those poor souls defecating in full view and living like animals have done something to deserve that poverty.

>Why does this make no sense?

>Why do things have to be monocausual?

In the cases when things aren't mono causal there is evidence for various sources. In this case, we have a reasonably logical cause-effect relationship dealing with human anatomy and genetics, and then some guy with a book comes by and says "Yes, that, AND God is cursing people, also". And another fella, also with a book drops by and ads "Actually, the first one is legit but the second one is bullshit. Its alien spirits which are causing people to give birth to deformed infants, believe me".

It shouldn't be that hard to see why I object to a "theory" which is unnecessary in the presence of factual evidence, and requires by its very nature the axiomatic *assumption* that your specific brand of Divine exists and cares.


 No.7763

>>7753

>It is contrary to cause and effect relationships

God is not subject to laws of physics.

> that God makes people shitty on purpose, or rather "for his own mysterious purpose".

I disagree then.

> In this case, we have a reasonably logical cause-effect relationship dealing with human anatomy and genetics, and then some guy with a book comes by and says "Yes, that, AND God is cursing people, also"

There is no difference between anatomy , genetics, social circumstances, luck and divine blessing.

>It shouldn't be that hard to see why I object to a "theory" which is unnecessary in the presence of factual evidence, and requires by its very nature the axiomatic *assumption* that your specific brand of Divine exists and cares.

you atheist nao?


 No.7772

>>7763

>God is not subject to laws of physics.

>There is no difference between anatomy , genetics, social circumstances, luck and divine blessing.

I'm going to let these alone for now.

>you atheist nao?

I couldn't prove that there is no god, so I'm not going to operate under that assumption. I think its reasonable to look at every situation and analyze it reasonably, and if there are rational explanations within the realm of the mundane, I think its fair to assume that the possibility of god, or any of the countless divine beings that have been thought up by man, having anything to do with it is fairly low. Certainly takes a back seat to the testable, provable explanation, and I've never been a fan of the "yes, AND" game that almost all religions play.


 No.7776

File: 1446822609218.jpg (8.53 KB, 198x255, 66:85, b.jpg)

>>7772

> I think its reasonable to look at every situation and analyze it reasonably, and if there are rational explanations within the realm of the mundane, I think its fair to assume that the possibility of god, or any of the countless divine beings that have been thought up by man, having anything to do with it is fairly low.


 No.7777

File: 1446823738437.webm (7.7 MB, 1024x576, 16:9, Allahu_Ackbar_the_Film.webm)

>>7776

If you can't beat them with logic, beat them with scimitars.

>Post theme

Good convo m8




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