/christ/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Recently made Master Mason here, ask me anything. I will answer whatever I can.

>>3143

Truly? Very well, I hope you can set some minds at ease. Firstly, what exactly is Freemasonry?

I've heard it described as a religious cult, a secret multinational corporation, a NWO Regime and a club for old white men to do charity and spend time together away from their wives, or a combination of all of these.

What is Freemasonry, to you?

>>3144

> what exactly is Freemasonry?

It is a fraternal order descended from European, though primarily English stone-masons guilds. These guilds with the advancements of science and the proper establishment of engineering as a science and the decline in demand for medieval cathedral work (due to many historical factors) ended up transforming from a strict workers unions into a more esoteric or philosophical society. The secret hand-shakes which are commonly known to exist in freemasonry for example originated as a series of tells in order for credentialed Masons to identify one another so that untrained or unskilled workers would not be able to scab for work. this served to both protect the original freemason laborers jobs like a modern workers union but also to preserve the quality of the job as only initiated and properly trained masons would be on the site.

Many of the visible symbols and teachings of freemasonry similarly descend from medieval masonry tools and principals, the square and compass being an open example.

> I've heard it described as a religious cult,

Funny story, my own mother believed I was getting involved in a cult when I first joined. As the apologetic text you link describes Masonry is not a religion nor is it a substitute for a religion. Masons are expected to worship God according to their conscience and may be of any religious belief they are convicted is true. Certain religious truths are taught in Masonry such as the belief in an after life, belief in a supreme God and the role of God as the creator and orderer of the universe but how an individual mason goes before his god and worships him is up to his own faith and practice.

> a secret multinational corporation

I know in my state there is a corporate entity attached to our Grand Lodge and all lodges in the state (as far as I know, I'm not 100% on the details) for internal legal and financial purposes, but each states Grand Lodge is sovereign unto itself and there is no over-arching governing structure. At least not in Craft or Blue Lodge Masonry.

Scottish and York Rite operates a little differently. I'm not familiar with the details for the York Rite but for the Scottish Rite masons there is a governing Supreme Council of 33rd degree Scottish Rite Masons. In the United States there are two jurisdictions of the Scottish Rite, north and south. they are each sovereign unto themselves and no supreme council governs over both and similarly in all nations with a Scottish rite presence that nation has it's own supreme council.

> a NWO Regime

Well we certainly aren't taking anything over in my hick town. As previously described Masonry is incredibly decentralized and in fact George Washington turned down a plan to establish a Supreme Grand Lodge of American specifically because he did not want to infringe upon the sovereignty of the Grand Lodge of each state.

Of course people can allege I'm just not a high enough degree to know about the secret plan but then, why would somebody who is in the organization know less about the secret plot than somebody who isn't a member what so ever?

> and a club for old white men to do charity and spend time together away from their wives,

There is much more to masonry than just this regarding it's philosophical and esoteric teachings but I would say for the every-day mason 7/10 times this is exactly the purpose the lodge serves for them. It should also be stressed Freemasonry is not specifically a charity organization, if your interest is in charity there are better more focused organizations that exist for that purpose. We masons do charity where we chose to because of our belief in a duty to our fellow man, a mason can always chose to withhold his charity where he feels it would be misspent.

> What is Freemasonry, to you?

For me it is a way I can stand alongside the founders of the American republic (though these are very dark days for that republic if it even can be called that at this point). I have a deep almost inappropriate respect for the Founders and see George Washington as the American Romulus. I became a mason because he was a mason, alongside many other great men in American history including Paul Revere, Benjamin Franklin and Andrew "Old Hickory" Jackson, and this was a fraternity which they spoke highly of and which shaped the kinds of men they were.

>>3144

>I've heard it described as a religious cult, a secret multinational corporation, a NWO Regime and a club for old white men to do charity and spend time together away from their wives, or a combination of all of these.

Not at all. Freemasons mainly found orphanages and are a funny social event.

>>3149

This man got it right.

You should all become freemasons, nothing wrong with them. They are just a club of good people doing good :)

>>3153

> Have you encountered, in your time in Freemasonry, ideas or beliefs that have anything to do with the Temple of Solomon or similarly more ancient rites?

There are many allusions to the temple of Solomon in Masonic symbolism yes.

> Is there any truth to that Illustrations book

For the sake of preserving my oath not to reveal any secrets I won't comment as to the accuracy of the book. If I say it's contents are correct that obviously reveals what they are, if I say its contents are incorrect that would encourage people to compare and contrast with other Masonic expositions to find what is and is not accurate so it's a kind of catch-22.

> So Masonry only establishes these basic parameters, and the rest is up to the individual?

Exactly.

> Does that mean that essentially anyone of any faith, so long as they acknowledge a single Creator God, can become a Mason?

I don't believe that a single creator God is a required belief but you do have to believe in at least 1. The older Masonic writings take monotheism as a granted and the oldest are even explicitly trinitarian. I do not think monotheism is a requirement. Masonry's religious tolerance developed out of the observation of evils which grew out of the European wars of religion and was originally meant to create a bridge between Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans and all other Christian groups. As Masonry expanded it had to become less explicitly Christian to remain consistent its own ideals. Certainly buddhists and hindus who are not monotheistic would not be barred from being freemasons. You cannot be an atheist though, what so ever and in fact we take an oath to never allow the godless to become masons.

> How would you respond to something like this?

I almost explained this in the first post but post limits made me cut it. The way the degrees in masonry works is you have Craft also called Blue Lodge masonry. Thiis is bog-standard regular masonry and 80% of masons (I think the statistic goes) are only members of blue lodge masonry. Once you reach the third and highest degree in craft masonry you can then join an Appendant body the two recognized appendant bodies are Scottish and York Rite. These bodies offer more degrees and further masonic knowledge and practice but they are not superior to craft masonry. If you jimagine a set of stairs the first three degrees would be the steps. Once you reach the top you stand on a platform that leads into two hallways and as you go down these hallways each 50 feet or so marks a further degree in that appendant body. It's a lateral movement not a vertical one. So as a 3rd degree master mason I am of the same "rank" as a 33rd degree scottish rite mason, I am just not as far into the scottish rite hallway as he is. Similarly you can join both the Scottish and York rite if you desire, you don't have to pick just one, most people just don't have the time to devote to both or even to one of them which is why so few masons actually pursue them.

> . This stems from the idea that True Freemasonry is only for white and powerful men, and that they've opened certain lodges to blacks and other races to get the government off their backs,

There's actually a very long and interesting history regarding non-white membership in masonry and it's a little bit of a complex subject which I'm not all that familiar on. There is a predominately black branch of Masonry called Prince Hall Masonry named after Prince Hall a black man who founded his own lodge after not being permitted to join a lodge in Massachusetts. The Status of Prince Hall masons as true masons is a little complex and some see them as legitimate while other do not. But as it currently stands there is no racial requirement and a black or asian or indian or little green martian can become a regularly initiated freemason.

> but upon seeing it was exclusively black, hispanic and Muslim, I declined

A lodge will take whatever characteristics that best serve its community. If there are allot of hispanics or blacks or Muslims in an area naturally they are going to make up that lodges membership. If it's something you aren't comfortable with and are still interested in masonry I would reccomend seeking out another nearby lodge. You may have bene invited to a Prince Hall lodge or maybe it was just a coincidence. My lodge is exclusively white and christian, but that's just demographic reasons I think there are all of two black families in my town.

> (or in detail, if you've the time)

I have to leave for work now so when I get back I'll finish with these last three questions.

>>3143

whats up with almost all influential person from the 1500 onwards were masons?

From military man, to scientists.

Is there some type of support group that helps them?

>>3185

It's a coincidence. Don't think about it.

>>3181

Alright I'm back.

> Can you briefly (or in detail, if you've the time) describe what you mean by this, if you're allowed?

In brief, Masonry is about making good men better by teaching them the importance of Fraternity, liberty, tolerance and the importance of educating themselves and developing skills. As an example I recently purchased a try-square and compass so I could study and practice geometry as the ancient greeks did. In the future I plan on buying a telescope to familiarize myself with astronomy (and geometry + astronomy will lead me ever further down the road in studying the science of navigation), were it not for the things I've learned and been exposed to as a Mason I don't think I would have taken the initiative to begin this study.

> What are the values that you associate with Freemasonry and the Founding Fathers that you believe to be so important and so inspiring?

Self-Sacrifice, dedication to truth, reason and fairness, being tolerant and agreeable with your fellow man, the readiness to act. they were menof outstanding character and while these are not exclusive to freemasonry and there are many american patriots and statesmen who were not masons, the fact that so many outstanding men were gave me a very good impression of the fraternity.

> Also, are you a Christian? If so, of what variety?

I am and I'm a Reformed Baptist, A Freemason AND a Calvinist! I must be the very devil himself!

>>3185

> whats up with almost all influential person from the 1500 onwards were masons?

It would really only be the 1700's onward and it's not so many people as you might think. Freemasons tend to be very proud of the fraternity and brothers who make great achievements tend to receive allot of press because of it. It's very pronounced in American history due to the great success Freemasonry had in establishing itself in the English colonies in the century leading up to the Revolution and the pre-existence of a secret society in the colonies lent itself very well to Revolutionaries who would need a way to meet inconspicuously with one another in secret. The fact that there were so many Freemasons among the founders cemented its place in American culture and society and the success of the USA gave the organization allot of prestige. It was a very fortuitous case of being in the right place at the right time. I can't stress how successful Masonry was in the 1700's in spreading all across the anglosphere, during the revolution military camps int he continental army would have their own "lodges" and many soldiers would join in order to solidify fraternity with their brothers in arms, Freemasonry was just a common part of life in those days.

There is a masonic lodge in almost every town in the US and if not there will be one very close by, with a presence like that it really is just a numbers game. It'd be like asking why there are so many influential people in US history that are Christian, Churches are everywhere and most people grow up in religious households, it isn't surprising that some of those people spread over so wide a geographic spread are going to get famous..

It doesn't hurt that being in so wide spread a fraternity means you can potentially network in ways you otherwise never could have.

But to actually answer the question, no as far as I am aware of there is no "become rich and famous" freemason support group.

> It's a coincidence. Don't think about it.

"Don't think about it" is the exact opposite thing a Mason would say. In fact we would urge you to think about it along the lines of "look at how many great men belong to our fraternity, see the kinds of characters they had, the virtuous lives they led, doesn't this reflect well on the fraternity". We use that as a selling point, we don't try to keep it secret, we are very proud of our history and are very open about it. I mean I even said earlier in this thread the reason I joined was because of how many great American leaders and statesmen were Freemasons.

The fact though is, the majority of Presidents and politicians and industrialists have not been Freemasons. We do not have an exclusive hold on power or influence nor a majority hold. But something about the fraternity creates men who rise up and take action and become great, and I think this speaks volumes to the kind of organization that it is.

>>3181

>There are many allusions to the temple of Solomon in Masonic symbolism yes.

I understand. If you've seen my flag I'd imagine you know why I asked this.

>I won't comment as to the accuracy of the book.

This is reasonable. Thank you.

>Certainly buddhists and hindus who are not monotheistic would not be barred from being freemasons.

How prevalent are ethnic groups like this in Freemasonry, today? It seems to me like something that; despite technically existing everywhere; has its stronghold in the Anglo-sphere (and I see you went about explaining part of how this came to be in the other comment).

So, as long as you believe in some sort of God, somehow, you would be allowed to be a Freemason? This would open it to essentially everyone.

>These bodies offer more degrees and further masonic knowledge and practice but they are not superior to craft masonry.

From what you can divulge, what sort of stuff would be involved in this acquisition of further knowledge? Also, does this mean that every lodge is basically sort of independent? What is the point of joining a SR or YR lodge, what is the incentive?

>Prince Hall Masonry

I read some on this guy before, but I don't remember all the details. How exactly did he manage to create his own lodge, something that requires a lot of esoteric and closely guarded knowledge?

> a Calvinist

I'm certain with this view you could spice up the board some.

Thank you for addressing my questions so far. Being a Christian, can you think of some of the reasons why there are many people who follow Christ who think that there is something at best queer and at worst satanic and occult about Freemasonry?

>>3211

> How prevalent are ethnic groups like this in Freemasonry, today?

I don't know, But then I'm only a recently made Master Mason so in time I'll get a better picture. I don't know if anybody actually keeps any statistics on things like this. It wouldn't surprise me if no actual number exists because we aren't supposed to talk about religion or politics inside of the lodge so it would be a little counter-intuitive to start keeping track of member religion and ethnicity.

> So, as long as you believe in some sort of God, somehow, you would be allowed to be a Freemason? This would open it to essentially everyone.

There are other restrictions such as being male, of legal age, of good character, that is not a criminal, I believe you are expected to be employed but I don't know if that's a strict requirement, you do have to pay dues so even if it's not a de jure requisit it is de facto. I don't know how it is in other states but here you also needed to be a Freeborn man but that language was taken out because of allegations it was racist, as if any black man today is not a freeborn man, but hey the kind of people who like to charge racism aren't the brightest bulbs in the first place.

> From what you can divulge, what sort of stuff would be involved in this acquisition of further knowledge?

I don't actually know, I'm not in the Scottish or York rites so it could be beer-pong and ass paddling as far as I'm aware. I think it probably entails the same kind of symbolism, morality tales and oath taking that the regular degrees incorporate, just with each one focusing on a different aspect or virtue of masonry.

> Also, does this mean that every lodge is basically sort of independent?

It's kind of like how US government works. You have your town government, the towns are organized into counties and those counties or districts interact with each other at a state level. Each state has it's own grand lodge that is independent of any superior governing body. The grand lodge takes tally of what lodges are active and inactive, sends delegates to ensure each lodge is maintaining proper practice and procedure, encourages and helps lodges to be aware of anything important it needs to be aware of, etc. Every lodge answers to its Grand Lodge to one degree or another but it isn't a totalitarian relationship, the Grand Lodge, as far as I have known it does not send out orders to do X Y or Z and to complete them by deadlines or anything like that.

> What is the point of joining a SR or YR lodge, what is the incentive?

The only thing I know of is further instruction in Masonry, if there are further incentives I'm not aware of them. The ability to say that you're a 32nd degree Mason and spook people out with it?

>>3227

> How exactly did he manage to create his own lodge,

He alongside a number of other blacks petitioned the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts to be Freemasons but were declined. They then went and were made masons by a British military lodge just prior to the revolutionary war, they then petitioned for a lodge charter from the Grand Lodge of England and received it. Because the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts at the time had not accepted Prince Hall's petition to be a Mason and also insulted by Prince Hall essentially going over their head in establishing another Lodge in Massachusetts without their charter the Massachusetts Freemasons didn't recognize them as legitimate (there also may have been racism at play but I can't read the minds of dead people). From this first Prince Hall "African" lodge other branches of Prince Hall Freemasonry developed, some are considered Regular, that is accepted as legitimate Freemasonic lodges, others are not and the lines aren't very clear or well defined.

Prince Hall lodges are not defintionally black just as regular Freemasonry is not definitionally white. It just so happens that for historical reasons the Prince Hall masons are predominately black and often serve the needs and interests of Black communities where they are usually set up.

> I'm certain with this view you could spice up the board some.

I actually migrated over back when the Catholic mod over on /christian/ went full Inquisition and this board was set up when what's his face was banned. I just didn't keep a presence here having been burned out by constantly justifying my existence to catholics on the same issues again and again without any progress of discussion over on /christian/ and didn't really want to deal with it if it became common place on this board. I don't know what made me click back on this board but when I did I saw this thread on the front page.

> Thank you for addressing my questions so far.

It's not a problem. Over on /pol/ if you're a Freemason you're a zionist shill by definition so having a non antagonistic discussion is actually very refreshing for me.

> can you think of some of the reasons why there are many people who follow Christ who think that there is something at best queer and at worst satanic and occult about Freemasonry?

I think it's a mix of paranoia and very healthy caution. As Christians we know that God will one day bring all things done in darkness to light. Secret societies naturally are doing things in the dark, away from prying eyes so it creates a situation where even if nothing wrong is being done the fact that we aren't talking about it and not hiding the fact that we're keeping secrets means there's allot of room for suspicion there. Combine that with the fact that allot of un or even anti christian occult and esotericism borrows from or references Freemasonry so people who spend time studying those kinds of things start seeing a link between the two rather than what is the case, that it's just the one group stealing from us, not a back and forth. Although some Masons might think that there is an occultic side to Freemasonry I think they're making the same anachronistic error.

I think if Christians who were opposed to Freemasonry actually went to their local lodge asked if they could get a tour of the lodge (which I received before joining) or an explanation of the things they had heard allot of their fears would be put to rest. After all almost anyone is welcome to join if they meat the few requirements already explained, our secrets are in that respect semi-open, we share them with anyone who comes and puts the time and effort in to learn and understand them. They just have to come and ask.

Freemasons are apostates

/thread

>>3207

it was not only in north america, in south america was the same.

Bolivar, Miranda, San Martin,etc. All masons.

Also, is there some kind of list to see who is mason or not? is it only for members?

On request:

Freemasonry is incompatible with Catholicism, being a Catholic and a Freemason is impossible.

Freemasonry is viewed as blasphemous and as a plot against the Church and therefore Christianity as a whole.

It has the guts to set up doctrines for its members that do not correspond with Catholicism. Even its initiation oath is inacceptible.

It promotes the poisenous idea that all religions would be equal. Setting Catholicism on equal fotting with Heresy, jewry, Islam and all others that believe in a single deity.

It demands to follow pagan rituals, it claims to lead to a form of "salvation". It is a religion and it propagates that by being a freemason you can "earn" your salvation and enter the heavenly lodge.

It's heavily fixated on achieving illumination by freemasonic lifestyle and knowledge.

Essentially it is a warmed up version of Gnosticism.

It has ties with protestantism, anglicanism, rosicrucianism, the illuminati and above all jewry.

It adheres to authors that are anathema and promotes the "enlightenment". A satanic term for distancing man from God. They do not want to worship God, they just worship their own reason, the human.

This is also why it does not take me wonders that Mormonism came from it too.

From a Catholic perspective freemasonry is obviously evil, leading people astray, tempting them to sin and heresy, trying to destroy Christianity as a whole etcpp and therefore a tool of Satan against humanity.

If you are relly interested in the Catholic perspective about freemasonry I recommend to take the time and watch this video.

It explains perfectly well why Catholicism and freemasonry are incompatible.

It's worth the time.

>>3136

>On freemasonry

>A General

I see what you did there ;^)

>>3539

>>ou can call me a theocratic nationalist how much you want, I'm sure this is also some kind of peer pressure inside the lodge. But it is exactly this line of thinking that makes freemasonry taboo. This I meant by "lead people astray".

Not wanting to cite here, ">" should have been "Y"

>>3539

>Nulla salus extra ecclesiam is a valid thing.

And yet the Church has specifically stated that it makes no judgement on the salvation of mens souls outside of the church in Lumen Gentium under the affirmation that the church is not all knowing and that God is free to work using the means and to the purposes of His will.

Why is it everytime I am in a discussion and want to press the absurdity of there being no salvation outside of the catholic church Catholics are quick to bring up Lumen Gentium and when I want to press the squishiness of Lumen Gentium catholics are quick to run back to the medieval position of the church. This doesn't strike you as evidence of a fundamental inconsistency in the Roman Catholic churches position on this subject?

> Fancy. And evil.

It is evil to not oppress or ostracize people based on their religion?

> Yes, under fitting circumstances I'd say that

So the red cross and doctors without borders are opposed to the Catholic church? I hope you understand how absurd this sounds.

> And protestants are heretics by default.

That wasn't my point, my point is that the Catholic Church does not demand heresy trials any more.

> Burning people at a stake is not very common anymore.

Not only does it not happen the Roman church has apologized for many of the times which it did. It seems to believe that it was in error for doing so. Do you disagree?

> Indeed. The lie and the truth will never be on an equal footing.

And Freemasonry agrees, we however recognize that mortal men are only capable of so much wisdom and that we will not persecute one another or our fellow man for where they find themselves in the journey for truth. We make no specific claim that any religion is equal, superior or inferior to any other. Our position is that what each man believes about that issue is between him and God.

> But these are just a bait to lure people into this dangerous sect.

What are the dangerous parts of this "sect" (how can a thing be a sect if it is not a religion?) name them, document them.

> Even in your post one can see how infected you are with dangerous and anti-clerical ideas.

Any anti-catholic bias I have comes from me being a Protestant not from being a Mason, I have been a Protestant for a full decade before becoming a Mason. You should not confuse my religious bias for being inherent in Masonry which makes no specific religious claims outside of the ones I already outlined. In fact I became a Freemason in part because of the story I read of George Washington barring his soldiers from celebrating Guy Fawkes day because he felt it would alienate Roman Catholics and disrupt the culture of religious liberty he desired for the new nation. This is why that tradition died off in the States even if it remains in whole or in part in the UK.

>>3539

> The disparity is that you accomodate to the feelings and a certain "feel good" attitude of believers

I have at length explained that Religious liberty is about doing away with oppression and persecution, not with bowing down before peoples feelings. Maybe you don't take any issue with Religious persecution, I hope that's not the case, but if it does I think that would speak for itself.

It's telling that you didn't address at all the point I made about the conflict between Muslims and Hindu's in the Pakistani border regions. Freemasonry isn't just localized to issues regarding Roman Catholicism. It's positions and policies exist because Freemasonry is a global fraternity. All men may be Freemasons regardless of creed, this means there are Lodges in India who have to deal with these issues and Freemasonry teaches that Muslim and Hindu do nto have to persecute one another, God will judge them accordingly and with justice. Is it wrong o bring peace to these conflicted regions and peoples? The Roman Catholic church can send it's missionaries and preach it's gospel to them, Freemasonry does not oppose that what so ever. Freemasonry not being a religion therefore has no gospel to preach to hese people and fully admits that.

We do not stand in the way of the Roman Catholic church we stand in the way of theocratic authoritarianisn and religious persecution.

> Eternal life is more important than making people feel fuzzy and warm inside, which bears no relevance at all.

And freemasonry posits no claim as to how one attains eternal life. We are not a religion, we do not require any specific religious affiliation we do not teach any belief that is contrary than what is accepted as dogmatic of the Roman Catholic faith. A man may be a Roman Catholic and a Freemason from a Masonic point of view, we do not disparage the Catholic for going to God as he has been led to for whatever reason divine or mundane.

> There is barel anything that has harmed humanity in the way protestantism has.

This is why I call you a radical theocrat. This is obviously an absurd claim and the fact that you would so baldly present it demonstrates that your goal is not meaningful dialogue, to expose lie for truth, but to advance propaganda.

> The Church firmly disagrees with you on that. Rightfully so.

The Roman Catholic church is in error on that point (this should not be misconstrued for me saying that the Roman Catholic church is in error on all points. The Roman Catholic church has admitted error in the past there is no reason it cannot admit error on this subject), this is what I'm trying to explain to you.

> It's interesting how much it irritates you that the Church calls out protestantism.

No it irritates me that that particular man is acting as if he is giving a meaningful presentation when he cannot even get his basic facts right.

> Protestantism IS evil. It might seem good to some of us, but this is part of the trick.

And You have every religious liberty to believe that, Freemasonry does not contradict this conviction of yours.

> 'll just say that it is exactly the attitude and line of thinking that needs to go,

> meaningful and earnest endeavoring to discover the truth of this world

> needs to go

Okay

> It was exactly these ideas that got us in our current situation,

So it was better when Jan Huss was being burned alive? It was better when the Huegenots were being dragged out of their homes and slaughtered in the streets?

>>3550

>And yet the Church has specifically stated that it makes no judgement on the salvation of mens souls outside of the church in Lumen Gentium under the affirmation that the church is not all knowing and that God is free to work using the means and to the purposes of His will.

They are excluded from salvation which means they will be judged. Which God will do not the Church. Not implying the Church had no power in giving absolution and related matters here.

>Why is it everytime I am in a discussion and want to press the absurdity of there being no salvation outside of the catholic church Catholics are quick to bring up Lumen Gentium and when I want to press the squishiness of Lumen Gentium catholics are quick to run back to the medieval position of the church. This doesn't strike you as evidence of a fundamental inconsistency in the Roman Catholic churches position on this subject?

I know it is hard to understand, but the truth never changes. The medieval announcement is as valid as the new one or te ancient one.

In fact more than the new one because it can't be contradicted.

> This doesn't strike you as evidence of a fundamental inconsistency in the Roman Catholic churches position on this subject?

Could you point out this inconsistency? I haven't seen it yet.

>It is evil to not oppress or ostracize people based on their religion?

Misleading wording. Freedom of religion and secularism is evil, yes.

>So the red cross and doctors without borders are opposed to the Catholic church? I hope you understand how absurd this sounds.

Neither the red cross nor doctors without borders are religious organisations, Freemasonry is however no matter if freemasons deny it

>Not only does it not happen the Roman church has apologized for many of the times which it did. It seems to believe that it was in error for doing so. Do you disagree?

Yes. I have talked about this here before. You are refering to the private opinions of popes which I am not required to agree with.

> Our position is that what each man believes about that issue is between him and God.

Which is just not the case. Every man has a responsibility towards his neighbour, we cannot let blasphemy and errancy run rampant.

>What are the dangerous parts of this "sect" (how can a thing be a sect if it is not a religion?) name them, document them.

>>3406

>>3407

>Any anti-catholic bias I have comes from me being a Protestant not from being a Mason, I have been a Protestant for a full decade before becoming a Mason. You should not confuse my religious bias for being inherent in Masonry which makes no specific religious claims outside of the ones I already outlined. In fact I became a Freemason in part because of the story I read of George Washington barring his soldiers from celebrating Guy Fawkes day because he felt it would alienate Roman Catholics and disrupt the culture of religious liberty he desired for the new nation. This is why that tradition died off in the States even if it remains in whole or in part in the UK.

Not surprised that you're a protestant. Afaik Washington died a baptised Catholic, being well aware that this means that he ceases to be a mason.

>We do not stand in the way of the Roman Catholic church we stand in the way of theocratic authoritarianisn and religious persecution.

>+ paragraph before

See, this is why freemasonry is inacceptable. Buzzwords do not change your goals, this is clearly an attack on the Church and in the end on Christianity.

>And freemasonry posits no claim as to how one attains eternal life. We are not a religion, we do not require any specific religious affiliation we do not teach any belief that is contrary than what is accepted as dogmatic of the Roman Catholic faith. A man may be a Roman Catholic and a Freemason from a Masonic point of view, we do not disparage the Catholic for going to God as he has been led to for whatever reason divine or mundane.

This is just opposed to reality, but as a master mason you have to get your usual excuses done, I'm sure. I'm also sure you have a set of them for different audiences, not impressed.

>This is why I call you a radical theocrat. This is obviously an absurd claim and the fact that you would so baldly present it demonstrates that your goal is not meaningful dialogue, to expose lie for truth, but to advance propaganda.

Protestantism was the start of the vast majority of heresy that are currently there.

They are also and enabler/accelerator of atheism, communism, secularism, violent uprisings, religious war etcpp

On a sidenote: Of course there is no "meaningful dialogue" to be held with freemasonry. It is the enemy. We don't need to talk to it, we need to abolish it.

>The Roman Catholic church is in error on that point (this should not be misconstrued for me saying that the Roman Catholic church is in error on all points. The Roman Catholic church has admitted error in the past there is no reason it cannot admit error on this subject), this is what I'm trying to explain to you.

Of course you are trying to explain it to me. I just don't buy your reasoning.

>No it irritates me that that particular man is acting as if he is giving a meaningful presentation when he cannot even get his basic facts right.

He did a good job imo

>And You have every religious liberty to believe that, Freemasonry does not contradict this conviction of yours.

aww… I'm sure if I was to say that among masons I would be absolutely fine without any peer pressure or other consequences ;^)

>> meaningful and earnest endeavoring to discover the truth of this world

>> needs to go

>Okay

Exactly, turning around words does not change the truth. If we inspect the harm that freemasonry did, how can we doubt this?

>So it was better when Jan Huss was being burned alive? It was better when the Huegenots were being dragged out of their homes and slaughtered in the streets?

I do not think that'd be necessary today, but surpressing rebellions is not a bad thing. Especially the cowardly czech Hus got everything himself for opposing his ruler.

Where does Freemasonry sit with Zionism and Jewry?

Why is the Masonic symbol (the compass and square) so similar to the star of Remphan?

What is your connection to the Knights Templar?

Why is it there have been some Masons such as Napoleon and Walt Disney who were staunchly anti Jew yet Freemasonry shares a number of symbols with Jewry and has had many pro Jewry shills like Churchill.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I am just curious.

>>3552

> They are excluded from salvation which means they will be judged.

Regardless Masonry doesn't rpetend to provide any way to salvation or to present any information regarding it.

> Could you point out this inconsistency? I haven't seen it yet.

The fact that the church both claims it can know nobody is saved outside of the church while also affirming the Church does not exclude the possibility that there may be those outside the church who God may have saved.

Eitherway I think pursuing this subject is just a rabbit trail as it is getting more so at the divide between Protestantism and Catholocism thna issues directly relating to masonry. For the sake of keeping the discussion focused and not derailed, unless it comes up again in a more directly relavent context, I want to table this for now. I'll give you the last word if you want it.

> Misleading wording. Freedom of religion and secularism is evil, yes.

I would agree secularism is, but to say the freedom of religion and conscience is evil is, I would say, an evil position to hold. Let the wrong be wrong. God will save His people. If Christ intends to die for somebody His will will be accomplished.

> Freemasonry is however no matter if freemasons deny it

What is your standard of evidence in determining if Freemasonry is a religion? What would I have to provide to show that what I am saying is not a denial but the truth. If there is no standard of evidence your claim is irrational.

> You are refering to the private opinions of popes which I am not required to agree with.

And what separates the Roman Catholic churches opinion on Freemasonry from being just the private opinions of popes? No serious Roman Catholic will hold that every Papal Bull ever issued is eternally binding or even always correct.

> Which is just not the case. Every man has a responsibility towards his neighbour, we cannot let blasphemy and errancy run rampant.

And it's fine as a private citizen acting in your neighbors interest to seek him out and try and convert him. Religious Liberty includes the free exercise and practice of ones religion including proselatyzation. We do not speak of religion in the lodge however as a courtesy.

> links to the videos

I already showed the error of the short video, exposing it's reliance upon uncited and spurious claims and it's inability to get basic facts of Protestant theology correct. Why would I expec tthe longer video, being produced by the same source to be in any way more accurate?

> Not surprised that you're a protestant.

I said I was earlier in the thread. Did you even read the thread before posting?

> Afaik Washington died a baptised Catholic

Where did you hear this? His family were members of the Church of England, and he was baptized as such and served as a vestryman in the church. He would sometimes attend Catholic services while touring the country but he also attended Quaker and Episcopalian and Anglican services. Washington was a pious man but towards the end of his life he was not very noticeably a religious one, whether by conviction or political pragmatics.

> Buzzwords do not change your goals,

Or maybe your idea of what our goals are is wrong.

> and in the end on Christianity.

Has the Holy Spirit of God given you the gift of seeing into mens hearts and judging their intentions? You know me to be the enemy of Christ as truly as you know your own name now don't you? Are you being belligerent on purpose or are you just a supremely arrogant man?

>>3553

> This is just opposed to reality, but as a master mason you have to get your usual excuses done, I'm sure.

And you know without any doubt or hesitation that I am a liar. Yes here is a prophet and the son of a prophet who has been given all knowledge and an eye for all truth.

Get over yourself.

> I'm also sure you have a set of them for different audiences, not impressed.

Show the inconsistency in my word. From talking to a Mormon, to responding to unidentified anons, to speaking with you. Where have I said something inconsistent, where are my different excuses for different audiences.

If am so obvious then you can point it out, if this is old hat present the playbook. Don't just go making baseless accusations, God has required two or three witnesses for every accusation, bring them forward and let them be tested for truth.

> Of course there is no "meaningful dialogue" to be held with freemasonry. It is the enemy. We don't need to talk to it, we need to abolish it.

Truth does not fear free examination and the vigorous exchange of ideas. It is a lie which hides in darkness and obscurity and runs from being tested.

> I just don't buy your reasoning.

On no grounds other than a papal bull issued three hundred years ago.

> f we inspect the harm that freemasonry did, how can we doubt this?

And you don't bring them forward.

> but surpressing rebellions is not a bad thing.

Disgusting. You have no empathy for the Waldensian women and children who were cut down by catholic armies in the Italian mountainsides? Youre heart does not break for the widows and orphans left behind when Catholic armies marched into Switzerland and cut down Zwingli and his followers? You are a moral pygmy

> Especially the cowardly czech Hus got everything himself for opposing his ruler.

Cowardly? He never ran or hid, he with boldness stood and demanded that his errors be exposed and explained to him. He went where he was summoned he did everything he was asked except recant that which was never demonstrated to be false.

>>3560

> Where does Freemasonry sit with Zionism and Jewry?

As far as I am aware there is no official masonic position. Each member is allowed to hold to whatever political position he is delighted to.

> Why is the Masonic symbol (the compass and square) so similar to the star of Remphan?

Why is a Hexagon? The Square and Compass have their own individual meanings in Masonry based on Freemasonrys origins in actual medieval stone masonry, the compass draws a circle setting limitations and the try-square keeps right angles straight and perpendicular. I suppose it's possible that the early speculative Freemasons (that is those who were into stone masons) arranged the symbols to try and allude to the Star of David (as they would have known it, they were almost all professing trinitarian Christians early on) as a way of devising more symbols to link back to the Old Testament the temple of Solomon which do figure symbolically in Freemasonic ritual and symbolism. But there is no specifically Zionist or internationally Jewish purpose behind it.

>What is your connection to the Knights Templar?

Some people say there is a connection, that the one organization over time evolved into the other, and some Masons will parrot this idea. There is no documented connection though. Anything is possible I suppose. What needs to be understood is Freemasonry has a very symbolic self-attributed "History" with it's own founding myths and important historical events and then it has a real, documentable history based in reality.

The fictitious history serves its own purpose to give the fraternity a tradition, symbols, stories, etc that it can pass along, but it is little more than that, as far as I know anyway. Tomorrow somebody might dig up a smoking gun "Medieval proto-communist Jews founded the Knights Templar to serve the goals of international Jewry in a 700 year plot to destroy Europe and when the Templar were destroyed they moved their operations into Freemasonry". But until that document shows up, documented history provides no connection.

> Why is it there have been some Masons such as Napoleon and Walt Disney who were staunchly anti Jew yet Freemasonry shares a number of symbols with Jewry and has had many pro Jewry shills like Churchill.

Because Freemasons are allowed to believe whatever they want to. We don't thought police our members we believe in the Freedom of Conscience. The symbols exist because Freemasonry was founded by Christian Englishmen and so they used what they would have understood to be Christian symbols found in the Old Testament. Referring to them as Jewish symbols is, while in one sense very accurate, anachronistic and ignores the reality of where Freemasonry actually came from.

> I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I am just curious.

Curiosity is the mother of learning.

>>3637

Thanks for the answer.