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 No.3600

>On this tradition and on the indisputable preëminence of Peter in the Gospels and the Acts, especially the words of Christ to him after the great confession (Matt. 16:18), is built the colossal fabric of the papacy with all its amazing pretensions to be the legitimate succession of a permanent primacy of honor and supremacy of jurisdiction in the church of Christ, and—since 1870—with the additional claim of papal infallibility in all official utterances, doctrinal or moral. The validity of this claim requires three premises:

1. The presence of Peter in Rome. This may be admitted as an historical fact, and I for my part cannot believe it possible that such a rock-firm and world-wide structure as the papacy could rest on the sand of mere fraud and error. It is the underlying fact which gives to fiction its vitality, and error is dangerous in proportion to the amount of truth which it embodies. But the fact of Peter’s presence in Rome, whether of one year or twenty-five, cannot be of such fundamental importance as the papacy assumes it to be: otherwise we would certainly have some allusion to it in the New Testament. Moreover, if Peter was in Rome, so was Paul, and shared with him on equal terms the apostolic supervision of the Roman congregation, as is very evident from his Epistle to the Romans.

>2. The transferability of Peter’s preëminence on a successor. This is derived by inference from the words of Christ: "Thou art Rock, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."316 This passage, recorded only by Matthew, is the exegetical rock of Romanism, and more frequently quoted by popes and papists than any other passage of the Scriptures. But admitting the obvious reference of petra to Peter, the significance of this prophetic name evidently refers to the peculiar mission of Peter in laying the foundation of the church once and for all time to come. He fulfilled it on the day of Pentecost and in the conversion of Cornelius; and in this pioneer work Peter can have no successor any more than St. Paul in the conversion of the Gentiles, and John in the consolidation of the two branches of the apostolic church.

3. The actual transfer of this prerogative of Peter—not upon the bishops of Jerusalem, or Antioch, where he undoubtedly resided—but upon the bishop of Rome, where he cannot be proven to have been from the New Testament. Of such a transfer history knows absolutely nothing. Clement, bishop of Rome, who first, about a.d. 95, makes mention of Peter’s martyrdom, and Ignatius of Antioch, who a few years later alludes to Peter and Paul as exhorting the Romans, have not a word to say about the transfer. The very chronology and succession of the first popes is uncertain.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc1.i.IV_1.26.html History of the Christian Church, Volume I: Apostolic Christianity

 No.3636

Interesting.

In addition, telling someone the Church will be built upon them doesn't mean much alone, as it could have been said of all Christians back then. They were the foundation of our religion and have held strong for centuries until we became the number one religion on the planet.


 No.3654

>No character of the Bible, we may say, no personage in all history, has been so much magnified, misrepresented and misused for doctrinal and hierarchical ends as the plain fisherman of Galilee who stands at the head of the apostolic college. Among the women of the Bible the Virgin Mary has undergone a similar transformation for purposes of devotion, and raised to the dignity of the queen of heaven. Peter as the Vicar of Christ, and Mary as the mother of Christ, have in this idealized shape become and are still the ruling powers in the polity and worship of the largest branch of Christendom.

In both cases the work of fiction began among the Judaizing heretical sects of the second and third centuries, but was modified and carried forward by the Catholic, especially the Roman church, in the third and fourth centuries. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc1.i.IV_1.26.html

>>3636

Yes. The Popes were power-hungry and craved absolute religious authority.


 No.3656

>If the claims of the papacy cannot be proven from what we know of the historical Peter, there are, on the other hand, several undoubted facts in the real history of Peter which bear heavily upon those claims, namely:

That in the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:1–11), Peter appears simply as the first speaker and debater, not as president and judge (James presided), and assumes no special prerogative, least of all an infallibility of judgment. According to the Vatican theory the whole question of circumcision ought to have been submitted to Peter rather than to a Council, and the decision ought to have gone out from him rather than from "the apostles and elders, brethren" (or "the elder brethren," 15:23).

That Peter was openly rebuked for inconsistency by a younger apostle at Antioch (Gal. 2:11–14). Peter’s conduct on that occasion is irreconcilable with his infallibility as to discipline; Paul’s conduct is irreconcilable with Peter’s alleged supremacy; and the whole scene, though perfectly plain, is so inconvenient to Roman and Romanizing views, that it has been variously distorted by patristic and Jesuit commentators, even into a theatrical farce gotten up by the apostles for the more effectual refutation of the Judaizers!

That, while the greatest of popes, from Leo I. down to Leo XIII. never cease to speak of their authority over all the bishops and all the churches, Peter, in his speeches in the Acts, never does so. And his Epistles, far from assuming any superiority over his "fellow-elders" and over "the clergy" (by which he means the Christian people), breathe the spirit of the sincerest humility and contain a prophetic warning against the besetting sins of the papacy, filthy avarice and lordly ambition (1 Pet. 5:1–3). Love of money and love of power are twin-sisters, and either of them is "a root of all evil." :DDD


 No.3657

Quite silly tbh.

Our source for the authority of Peter is the Early Church that undoubtedly was convinced of this.

The only way to refute Peter was to refute that the early Church had authority.

If you do so the bible also loses all of its authority because it is made by the early Church. All of the authority of the bible derives from the Church.

It's also not like an argument was made here. It's just: I dislike the papacy for reasons and will read verses and misinterpret texts until it fits my world view.

2/5, have seen better anti-catholic stuff


 No.3660

>>3657

>If you do so the bible also loses all of its authority because it is made by the early Church. All of the authority of the bible derives from the Church.

Quite delusional. They did not write a single book, they just put the books together into one collection; the books already existed and no 'Catholic' had anything to do with their creation.


 No.3662

>>3660

>they just put the books together into one collection

As I said, they made the bible and decided what's part of it. Would need some authority to do that.


 No.8257

>>3657

early church != bishop of rome


 No.8263

I was going to make a thread series called "Rebuking Rome" but I see you have started already

Good work


 No.8264

>>3600

Let's start with this article

http://vintage.aomin.org/1296CATR.htmlhttp://vintage.aomin.org/1296CATR.html

Protestants aren't attacking the apostolic succession of the Roman church. What we are saying is like the Judazier in the Galatians the Roman church has perverted the gospel.

The matter was never the necessity of grace but sufficient (which Protestants hold to be sufficient as documented by 'Sola Gratia').

Initially the church in Rome was like that of Corinth and Galatia. It's structure followed that of the Bible. A presbytery led the church or elders and with pastors. It was later in its history that it began to assume more and more control as the Roman Empire expanded.

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2012/12/02/is-the-church-of-the-council-of-nicaea-the-roman-catholic-church-a-debate-between-james-white-and-john-mary-vintage/

Tons of articles and sources on Roman Catholicism

http://vintage.aomin.org/Roman.html

An objection commonly arising from Romanist, that is they made the Bible, quite the opposite is true.

FALSE CLAIM THAT ROMANISTS GAVE CHRISTIANS THE BIBLE

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2015/04/did-roman-catholicism-give-protestants.html

APOCRYPHA AS DEUTROCANONICAL IS FALSE

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/01/is-jewish-apocrypha-inspired-scripture_23.html

EUCHARIST IS BLASPHEMOUS AND UNBIBLICAL

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2014/03/proof-roman-catholic-mass-is-unbiblical.html

REJECTION OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION BY THE EARLY CHURCH

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/10/the-early-church-did-not-believe-romes.html

DEBUNKING THE PAPACY

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2014/03/do-john-2115-17-and-luke-2231-32-prove.html

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2014/03/does-matthew-16-teach-peter-is-rock.html

SOLA SCRIPTURA IS BIBLICAL

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2014/03/biblical-evidence-for-sola-scriptura.html

FALSE ROMANIST TEACHINGS REFUTED

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2014/03/refuting-romes-biblial-case-for.html

DOCUMENTARY REFUTING ROMAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bVEXZ38Vs8


 No.8266

>>8264

thanks for the links, will check em out

Recommending the video series of James White vs Fastiggi. Its terrific


 No.8306

It's about time!




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