/christ/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>3999

Incredible quads. Universalism is one of those creeds that makes it hard for me not to hate anyone who believes in them, like Judaism.

I've yet to ever meet a universalist who wasn't just a "spiritual" douche with zero legit interest in religion.

>>4015

>I've yet to ever meet a universalist who wasn't just a "spiritual" douche with zero legit interest in religion.

Maybe that'll be me. I'm not learned enough about it to call myself a Universalist, but I'm not too far.

I wouldn't go for that for the purpose of not learning jack, though. I believe in knowledge.

>>3999

No matter how much you use the Universalist flag, or "identify" as it, you'll always be a Catholic.

>>4015

This

>>4000

How does this differ from your believes then? I know you're a fan of Fr Barren, this makes it hard to take this claim seriously…

>>4090

>No matter how much you use the Universalist flag, or "identify" as it, you'll always be a Catholic.

I don't know whether to feel happy or threatened about this.

>How does this differ from your believes then?

I believe Hell exists, in whatever form, and that you can spend eternity in it. I just disagree on the modalities of how this happens.

>I know you're a fan of Fr Barren, this makes it hard to take this claim seriously…

You mean the YouTube Priest? Yeah, I like him a lot and enjoy his videos.

>this claim

Which? That I don't believe in this sort of Universalism? If I don't and like Barren for his Catholic videos, how does it make it hard to believe? I'm confused.

Question: if I used the Catholic flag but admitted to believing in non-Catholic ideas, would you mind? Because that's the main reason why I don't fly the Catholic flag (I did for some time before). I want a flag that gives accurate info on me, and I wouldn't want other Catholics to feel betrayed by my non-orthodox views (minor "o", pun-intended).

Is this f(l)ag better?

>>4093

>I don't know whether to feel happy or threatened about this.

Indeed.

>I believe Hell exists, in whatever form, and that you can spend eternity in it. I just disagree on the modalities of how this happens.

So what are the modalities of it according to you?

>Which? That I don't believe in this sort of Universalism? If I don't and like Barren for his Catholic videos, how does it make it hard to believe? I'm confused.

Father Barren is very close to what your pic here

>>4000

says imo.

>>4093

>Question: if I used the Catholic flag but admitted to believing in non-Catholic ideas, would you mind? Because that's the main reason why I don't fly the Catholic flag (I did for some time before). I want a flag that gives accurate info on me, and I wouldn't want other Catholics to feel betrayed by my non-orthodox views (minor >>4095

"o", pun-intended).

>Is this f(l)ag better?

You can use any flag you'd like if it alligns with your conscience. I just wanted to point out that you'll in fact always be a Catholic and that this is the standard you'll be hold to.

>>4097

>Indeed.

Sent chills down my spine.

>So what are the modalities of it according to you?

I don't know for sure. Potentially this: Hell is a temporary place of correction. This way, it works with the Catholics' logical deduction that you can be saved after death, but doesn't require the idea of a Purgatory, as Hell is, essentially, that Purgatory. That way you can still pray for the dead for their salvation. I also tend to believe, with CS Lewis, that people in Hell wanted to go and stay there.

I can't be sure, of course.

>Father Barren is very close to what your pic here

I wasn't aware of that. I sort of assumed that most Catholics were like you and believed the same. Talking to a Catholic man with degrees in theology showed me otherwise, but I didn't know about Barren. To be fair, even the CCC says we (Catholics) don't know exactly what God does with us when we die.

> I just wanted to point out that you'll in fact always be a Catholic and that this is the standard you'll be hold to.

I'll go with "It means that if you don't follow the Catholic faith you will be punished much more than if you hadn't been baptised as one when you were a baby".

And not, "It means you'll always belong to the great family of Catholics who will always consider you one of their own no matter what you do."

I didn't even know I had been baptised Catholic until fairly late in life, and I didn't know it wasn't changeable either, until even later.

No amount of trying to scare me will produce any increase of faith for me, in God, Jesus, or the Catholic faith. Just so you know. Every time fear is used as an argument, it makes me grow more suspicious.

At any rate, I won't take the Catholic flag because I don't feel in line with what Catholicism teaches. The rest is up to God, not you or me.

>>4099

>I wasn't aware of that.

So far it was just a baseless claim from my side. We should maybe give him a chance, I'm just talking from emory here. I watched his stuff a while ago and just remember I had problems with it.

>>4099

>I wasn't aware of that. I sort of assumed that most Catholics were like you and believed the same.

Not at all.

> Talking to a Catholic man with degrees in theology showed me otherwise,

I'd be cautious. I generally dislike a lot of modern theology majors. They are proto protestants and crypto marxists a lot.

>>4099

>I'll go with "It means that if you don't follow the Catholic faith you will be punished much more than if you hadn't been baptised as one when you were a baby".

>

>And not, "It means you'll always belong to the great family of Catholics who will always consider you one of their own no matter what you do."

This is your very own decision and interpretation.

>>4099

>Sent chills down my spine.

It will be the sins of Catholics that will end the world after all, won't it?

>>4104

>So far it was just a baseless claim from my side. We should maybe give him a chance, I'm just talking from emory here. I watched his stuff a while ago and just remember I had problems with it.

He probably thinks God gives people a second chance, but that's not explicitly non-Catholic. The CCC mentions just as much, specifically the part about suicide, if I recall correctly.

>I'd be cautious. I generally dislike a lot of modern theology majors. They are proto protestants and crypto marxists a lot.

Possibly. Not my guy though. He finds the Catholics here too "Protestant" in many ways.

>This is your very own decision and interpretation.

It's what I assume you mean. If I am in error, please correct me.

You didn't clarify whether you were being "family" or threatening before, so I assume you don't want me to feel unthreatened, even if both sentiments inhabit you.

>>4108

>Possibly. Not my guy though. He finds the Catholics here too "Protestant" in many ways.

Are you aware of the history of the CC in Switzerland and differences to other countries? About the suppression, the whole 19th century and all the crimes of the Sonderbundeskrieg?

He's absolutely right.

>You didn't clarify whether you were being "family" or threatening before, so I assume you don't want me to feel unthreatened, even if both sentiments inhabit you.

Intentionally. It's open to interpretation. But I'm a Catholic too, so don't you think that I'm any less torn on this than you.

>>4110

>Are you aware of the history of the CC in Switzerland and differences to other countries?

He told me about some particuliarities of the CC in various countries, but not Switzerland specifically. Remember he's German and is used to a CC that is state-funded and powerful, unlike the French CC who just about died because of "laicity", secularism, etc.

I live in Protestant country, where even the Catholic churches look like minimalist Protestantism. My wife to be had the same impression (she's from Poland, they're very, very Catholic in everything).

>Intentionally. It's open to interpretation. But I'm a Catholic too, so don't you think that I'm any less torn on this than you.

You don't want me to know whether you were threatening me or considering me family. All right, I guess neither of us knows then.

In doubt, I turn to the Bible and I remind myself of all those people who just turned to Christ with faith and literally willed themselves into faith, like the Goy woman who didn't even accept Christ's rejection, but insisted. Christ's reaction was, eventually, to be amazed at her faith, and she was healed.

Since I am confused as can be with all these many paths and creeds and faiths and Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and Orthodox, I focus on that and hope. Christ is all I have in this mess and all I can believe in.

>>4113

>>4113

>he's German and is used to a CC that is state-funded and powerful,

The German Catholic church is a joke and mainly responsible for the second Vaticanum.

> My wife to be had the same impression (she's from Poland, they're very, very Catholic in everything).

Do you talk with her about religion?

>You don't want me to know whether you were threatening me or considering me family. All right, I guess neither of us knows then.

I've said it once before already, I can't even threaten you.

>>4205

>Do you talk with her about religion?

It's a frequent topic. We have odd positions: I'm a Christian wannabe who feels like an atheist, she's sort of an agnostic wannabe whose faith is so rooted that she can act like it's not even there without freaking out (which I can't, if I start believing there's no God, existential crisis isn't far). She basically rejects the organised Church (but in Poland it's very, very different from what you might know: people get refused funerals from priests if they commited suicide, or died during theft, etc.). She was taught intelligent design and Creationism, also, she is not in line with the official position of the Catholic Church.

She's very attached to her roots however and considers herself Catholic; it's part of her. She's done all the rituals and rites, and in Poland they're much more serious about those (Easter lasts three days and everybody does it).

>>4208

>>4208

>it's very, very different from what you might know: people get refused funerals from priests if they commited suicide, or died during theft, etc.

That's exaclty what I know and how it should be.

>>4208

Have you ever mentioned to her your attitude on polygamy?

>>4210

>That's exaclty what I know and how it should be.

All right.

>>4246

What's my "attitude" on polygamy?

>>4277

I think he's referring to the point you've made in the past that its the natural modus operandi of humanity when it comes to reproduction, and that Christianity embraced it until they adapted pagan attitudes.

>>4277

>What's my "attitude" on polygamy?

7 DEUS VULT

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>>4099

> I sort of assumed that most Catholics were like you and believed the same.

Indeed this is catholicism. Those who doesn’t speak with the magisterium only express their opinion, not proper christian disposition

>>4280

Every woman I've ever been with has bisexual tendencies, this includes many female friends as well. I suspect most females to be that way.

Yes, she knows what I suspect about human evolution, but that doesn't mean I condone it for current humans. I'm not interested in polygamy for myself. Polygamy works for reproduction and survival in certain conditions, but spiritually, I doubt it'd work unless the husband is the unquestioned master of the household, and even then, that'd be spiritually empoverished as you don't get the same feedback from your wife (wives) as if you were one to one.

>and that Christianity embraced it until they adapted pagan attitudes.

Many will argue that it was intended, the result of providence, and that God favoured monogamy in the past. I've argued the opposite myself, for arguing's sake, to see what we had about this topics, but I have no confirmed belief of my own on this, apart from the fact that I won't do polygamy, by choice and necessity.

>>4290

I literally have no idea what you mean.

>>4294

>Indeed this is catholicism. Those who doesn’t speak with the magisterium only express their opinion, not proper christian disposition

You only say that when these "opinions" don't satisfy you. These other Catholics could say exactly the same about you and put your beliefs as mere opinions as well. Not all Catholics are the same and Catholicism isn't this monolith that many of you have been trying to make me believe it was.

Even Church-approved elements sometimes contradict themselves:

1. all those in Heaven are happy and cannot become sad because of earthly things

2. Mary cries in her Church-approved apparitions

I also doubt every Catholic agrees with all 255 dogmas.

When the Church forbids divorce but Christ allows it, what's a Christian to do? Follow Christ or follow the Church? I don't wonder very long and choose Christ every single time.

>>4294

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_X

The Catholic Church considers you a heretic, and you consider it a heresy. That's no different from every schism before: everyone considers the other a heretic and everyone thinks they're the truth Church, following the real Christian faith.

"If the Pope says what I think he should say, he's all right."

"If the Pope says other things, he's not the Pope anymore and heresy has been committed."

And who decides of that? Yourself. So much for following the magisterium, which has declared you heretical. Riddle me this…

>In Catholicism, the magisterium is the authority that lays down what is the authentic teaching of the Church.[1][2] For the Catholic Church, that authority is vested uniquely in the pope and the bishops who are in communion with him

>Pope Benedict XVI declared that, for doctrinal rather than disciplinary reasons, the SSPX has no canonical status in the Catholic Church and, because of that lack of canonical status, the ministries exercised by its ministers are not legitimate in the Church

Indeed, this isn't Catholicism.

>>4308

>which has declared you heretical

Nah-ah. Also this is the pot on the bonfire calling the inquisitor with the kettle black.

>>4313

>except for worshipping the pope as a false God of course.

OK.

>Never did that. The schismatic status has been lifted however.

The Pope did, from what I see. Did he not say they were unrelated to the Catholic Church?

>>4345

>Also this is the pot on the bonfire calling the inquisitor with the kettle black.

That's what I was thinking. And you're being unfair, because of most anons on 8chan, I don't call anyone a heretic since I don't have an official denomination to my name. I just get called/considered one by everybody else.

>>4347

> I just get called/considered one by everybody else

Have you considered that the problem might be you, in that case?

>>4348

>Have you considered that the problem might be you, in that case?

Have you ever taken the time to read my name? Of course, but displaying my own doubts all the time wouldn't necessarily help anyone, although you could argue that all my questions to others of firmer faith are nothing else, and I wouldn't disagree.

That said, everyone considers everyone else a heretic too, which does little to make me choose one denomination confidently. I've largely given up on choosing a denomination, at least not until I understand Christianity better.

>>4363

>That said, everyone considers everyone else a heretic too

How about you take a leap of faith. It’s like marrying. Maybe there is a reason you are catholic already.

For example, you can—just like me— just go to confession and confess your doubts and receive the blessed sacraments without any need to go to RCIA.

>>4394

>How about you take a leap of faith.

I did, years ago. Then I did it again by choosing to directly work for the Catholic Church. I believe that generating money for the Church so it can help the needy throughout the world is a good thing and the most Christian thing I can help with currently, on top of what I do with my job.

>For example, you can—just like me— just go to confession and confess your doubts and receive the blessed sacraments without any need to go to RCIA.

I could. Our Mormon friends would say I could visit the nearest temple and ask for help too, and the Protestants would suggest yet another similar procedure.

I focus more on deeds and what's inside me. I know myself, I know what works for me and what doesn't, as you do for yourself. I couldn't just receive any sacraments though because I have only been baptised as a baby, no confirmation and no first communion, although I took the sacrament two years ago, after many years of wondering if I should, could. I eventually decided that I just should because Christ would not reject me; I thought of all the people in the Bible who just went to Him with faith and insisted and believed, including the Gentile woman, whom He rejected first, but she insisted, and He admired her faith. Based on this, I just went for it.

>>4395

I dont know, you should come on IRC. In general I suggest everyone here to not make a further split.

I appreciate your faith but you shouldn’t test God. There is a thin line when it comes to ignoring universal teachings and trusting in extraordinary grace.

>>4347

>The Pope did, from what I see. Did he not say they were unrelated to the Catholic Church?

Did he officially announce it? Was there a reasoning?

The SSPX has done invalid stuff, like ordaining without permission, but as it stands now they are a valid, and one of the most valuable parts of the Church now.

>>4363

>That said, everyone considers everyone else a heretic too

No. Other Catholics are not, Orthodox are not etc.

Also mormons are not heretics because they are heathens like muslims but that's a different topic.

>>4395

>I could. Our Mormon friends would say I could visit the nearest temple and ask for help too, and the Protestants would suggest yet another similar procedure.

Yes, but can any of them really make the convincing claim that they are the one true Church?

We can, if you add up all rites and the other apostolics we are the vast majority of Christians and biggest religion on earth.

>no confirmation and no first communion

You should do that.

>>4398

>I appreciate your faith but you shouldn’t test God.

That was no testing of God.

>There is a thin line when it comes to ignoring universal teachings

Nothing universal in the decisions of man.

>trusting in extraordinary grace.

Christ's words are universal and I trust in Him. Whether you appreciate my faith or not makes no difference. I trust in God. I've given you Biblical examples of people who have trusted in God and were right to do so. His grace is always extraordinary.

I can't change the past anyway. No such thing as excess of faith, I would think.

>>4416

>Did he officially announce it? Was there a reasoning?

From Wikipedia. Benedict did.

>Other Catholics are not, Orthodox are not etc.

>consider =/= are

All Catholics consider all Protestants heretics, and Protestants consider Catholics heretics. You got my point. To make it even simpler: everyone sure enough of his denomination considers all those outside of it to be wrong.

>Yes, but can any of them really make the convincing claim that they are the one true Church?

They can make that claim because, as everyone else, they have their own parameters about it.

>We can, if you add up all rites and the other apostolics we are the vast majority of Christians and biggest religion on earth.

That's true, although the reason behind this is more related to military conquests than conversions of hearts. South America didn't convert willingly for the most part and today most of them are lapsed Catholics.

Majority in numbers doesn't mean truth even though it can tend to indicate it. I would use that argument with caution.

>You should do that.

I cannot do it because I don't agree with the Church on a lot of things and I would feel like a hypocrite. I can't even imagine going to confession and starting by declaring that I don't agree with certain things the Church says. Can you imagine?

>>4439

>From Wikipedia. Benedict did.

Citation?

A pope can say a lot of things, you know…

If it's just his personal opinion, so what? I'd expect him to dislike people that criticise his wrongdoings.

>They can make that claim because, as everyone else, they have their own parameters about it.

There are also literally people that claim that the KJV is the infallible one and true word of God, I'd laugh them right in the face too.

>That's true, although the reason behind this is more related to military conquests than conversions of hearts.

Are we pacifists now?

>I cannot do it because I don't agree with the Church on a lot of things and I would feel like a hypocrite. I can't even imagine going to confession and starting by declaring that I don't agree with certain things the Church says. Can you imagine?

Yes, I can. But you should come over yourself and start agreeing with the Church.

Even if not, you'd better be in the Church to change it according to your own will and as you see fit. Standing idly by and complaining won't earn you much.