/christ/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I checked the "born of a virgin" thing, and it checks out, for once.

Since Zoro is older than Christianity, I don't see how it could have been influenced by it. However, who's to say that Zoro didn't get some accurate prophecies?

Or are you suggesting that Christianity is just Zoro re-hashed? By whom? Why?

I know virtually nothing about Zoro as a religion. How likely that Zoro touched Palestine?

Why would the Apostles copy Zoro? Wouldn't that make them lose credibility?

What if Zoro is talking about the same stuff using other names?

I'm very curious about this stuff.

▶Shinigami (You) 07/17/15 (Fri) 19:03:42 No.4811

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/

I'm still trying to understand the religion, but BBC says its commonly accepted that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced christianity. It may have even been influenced by an earlier religion from India, which would make some of its traditions pretty mind blowingly old.

Since it survived in India, it might have influenced Hinduism. One of my professors claimed the Apocalypse/End of the World is an Aryan concept that gradually spread and became popular in the west, and also certain branches of Buddhism. Linguisticians do refer to European languages as coming from an Indo-European branch, and it would be something if all major religions could trace part of their roots to ancient India.

By the way, when I say Aryan I am talking about the ancient ethnic group. Because there are common words accross the Indo-European languages, it is thought many of the sky Gods (Zeus or Indra) also could have derived from a proto-deity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

Personally, I see no problem with the idea of people inventing their own sky Gods independently though.

>>4812

>Linguisticians do refer to European languages as coming from an Indo-European branch,

Linguists think there was a language, called Indo-European, which was the ancestor of all the languages that have "cognate words", which are similar words in all these languages, typically family words:

>padre

>father

>pater

>père

>vater

They've refined it to proto-Indo-European now, whatever that is.

>By the way, when I say Aryan I am talking about the ancient ethnic group.

I understand.

>Zarathrusta began traveling around at age 30 to get converts like Jesus.

He angered priests of the existing order and turned with despair to God.

"To what land should I flee? Where bend my steps? I am thrust out from family and tribe: I have no favor from the village to which I would belong, Nor from the wicked rulers of the country."

( Sounds like Jesus lamenting about how the son of man has no place to lay his head.)

He fled to the court of an IranIan leader and healed his favorite horse, and Vistaspa converted.

Later Zarathushtra died when an army attacked at Balkh. Some say he was assassinated by by a ritual dagger.

(My research continues now that I have found a book on Zoroastrianism, which I've meant to read about for a while.)

>95:6.6 The Jewish traditions of heaven and hell and the doctrine of devils as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures, while founded on the lingering traditions of Lucifer and Caligastia, were principally derived from the Zoroastrians during the times when the Jews were under the political and cultural dominance of the Persians. Zoroaster, like the Egyptians, taught the "day of judgment," but he connected this event with the end of the world.

95:6.7 Even the religion which succeeded Zoroastrianism in Persia was markedly influenced by it. When the Iranian priests sought to overthrow the teachings of Zoroaster, they resurrected the ancient worship of Mithra. And Mithraism spread throughout the Levant and Mediterranean regions, being for some time a contemporary of both Judaism and Christianity. The teachings of Zoroaster thus came successively to impress three great religions: Judaism and Christianity and, through them, Mohammedanism.

***

98:5.2 The cult of Mithras arose in Iran and long persisted in its homeland despite the militant opposition of the followers of Zoroaster. But by the time Mithraism reached Rome, it had become greatly improved by the absorption of many of Zoroaster's teachings. It was chiefly through the Mithraic cult that Zoroaster's religion exerted an influence upon later appearing Christianity.

>>4777

>Discuss which religion influenced the other more?

I'm sure that Zoroaster was influenced by Jewish prophecy, related to the captivity in Babylon/Assyria.

Since there everything is foretold this explains all similarities.

Christianity was not influenced by Zoroastrism at all because you cannot mix up the lie with the truth.

>>4812

>but BBC says its commonly accepted that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced christianity.

The BBC is evil propaganda.

>>4823

>>vater

>Rechtschreibung

So the two may have similarities but are not syncretism or something.

>>4777

>>Good god vs evil deity

There is no evil deity in Christianity

>>son of god born of a virgin will purify the world

Predicted in Jewish prophecy that predates Zoroastrism

>>burning fiery river to perish the wicked, (or hell), eternity with god for the good

Rather Common. Even the Norse had the same concept, they just had ice and storm instead of a fiery river. Which I'd explain with Geography.

I also do not believe that hell literally is "a lake of fire".

>>Final judgement

Jewish idea. Seems also rather common in general.

>>4780

> How likely that Zoro touched Palestine?

Not at all. Jews in Persia = very likely however

>>5101

>Wikipedia.

My book says a better translation is wise lord. I feel like everything I read and learn polishes my understanding, as I write a better draft.

>>5105

>I'm sure that Zoroaster was influenced by Jewish prophecy, related to the captivity in Babylon/Assyria.

Seems unlikely. Aspects of the religion greatly predate Christianity, and the way Cyrus behaved during the Babylonian exile was in line with later Zoroastrian tenants, and so he was well liked by all. In fact, the way most of the Persians behaved was to praise righteousness, (the Greeks said they were taught not to lie, and considered lying shameful) and they generally acted like later era Zoroastrians. There is disagreement on when Zarathustra was born though, and some think he may be a mythical figure that never even existed.

Something I found striking is Aristotle refers to Plato as being born 6000 years after Zarathustra. This implies a connection between them that transcends awareness . 6000 years is how long it takes for a reversal in Zoroastrian theology, from good to evil and back again. In their older belief the world degenerates for 3000 years, then a great person appears to usher in 3000 years of good until a renewal, and then it repeats. (Like a great cycle, similiar to in Buddhism.)

Then Plato talks about Reincarnation in the Myth of Er, and the first idea of final judgment echos Zoroastrianism. And paradise is derived from a Persian word. All the Platonic dualistic talk of seeking virtue/beauty and avoiding evil could actually tie back to Zoroastrianism.

>Jews in Persia = very likely howev

Zoroastrian Cyrus sent the Jews back (when he captured Babylon). It is written in the bible, and he even provided funds to rebuild their temple. He also participated in Pharonic ceremonial rights in egypt, and had no problem with praising other Gods of other nations (perhaps they were manifestations of his?) and encouraging other nations like the Jews to follow a path of righteousness. Because he treated the Jews well, they wrote favorably of him in the bible and said that God had delivered them by working through him.

>There is no evil deity in Christianity

What do you mean? There's definitely a weaker evil spirit in Traditional Christianity, and the demon possession thread here indicates people believe in it

>>5156

>Aspects of the religion greatly predate Christianity

But do they predate Jewish Prophecy?

1.Prophets

2. Zoroaster

3. Christ

The link is from 1 to 3, not from one to 2 to 3.

>Then Plato talks about Reincarnation in the Myth of Er, and the first idea of final judgment echos Zoroastrianism. And paradise is derived from a Persian word. All the Platonic dualistic talk of seeking virtue/beauty and avoiding evil could actually tie back to Zoroastrianism.

Persia and Greece were in a great cultural exchange at that time.

>Zoroastrian Cyrus sent the Jews back (when he captured Babylon). It is written in the bible, and he even provided funds to rebuild their temple. He also participated in Pharonic ceremonial rights in egypt, and had no problem with praising other Gods of other nations (perhaps they were manifestations of his?) and encouraging other nations like the Jews to follow a path of righteousness. Because he treated the Jews well, they wrote favorably of him in the bible and said that God had delivered them by working through him.

Yes, this is why I think that it is much more probable that Persians were influenced by the Jews in matters of religion.

>What do you mean? There's definitely a weaker evil spirit in Traditional Christianity, and the demon possession thread here indicates people believe in it

I just wouldn't call it deity. I have great doubts that there is a highest devil atm at least one that effectively could unite all demons and even if there was she/he would not deserve the title of deity.

Now that I've read a bit about Zoroastrianism up to the 300 AD, I can answer this now.

>>4780

>I know virtually nothing about Zoro as a religion. How likely that Zoro touched Palestine?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but for me it's become certain that it influenced Christianity. I suppose a Christian might try to argue that their religion is the pure one that influenced the other while absorbing nothing, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus by objective academics.

>Why would the Apostles copy Zoro? Wouldn't that make them lose credibility?

I don't think credibility from exclusivity was a concern back then, because Judaism already was heavily drawing from Zoroastrian teachings without worrying about the foreignness. Syncretism was in vogue, and excluding foreign mysticism based on origin was less of a thing before the canon was established. They probably thought Zoroaster was an inspired teacher or prophet, just as much as their own from Palestine, and there are several passages in Talmudic sources that explicitly reference his religion, and cosmological framework with archangels of light and darkness that engage in a final battle, sometimes even complete with Persian loan words.

Christianity was also already drawing from Zoroastrianism from the book of Daniel, which included Iraninan loan words, and a Zoroastrian metaphor about metals as empires which you see mirrored in Daniel's interpretation of Nebecenezar's dream.

Zoroastrianism also imparted the idea of hell as a place of punishment that replaced Shedol, the Jewish afterlife which was a place of shades. In fact, the idea of cold and hot hells in certain Buddhist scriptures might be inspired by Zoroastrianism.

>What if Zoro is talking about the same stuff using other names?

There were indeed multiple Zarathrustias over the years (Persian name, the Zoroastria word is a greek rendition of it). Different speakers put different words in the mouth of Zarathrustia who was respected as a sage of the East for thousands of years. The Greeks did it too, which is why Greeks associated him with astrology. Rather than to release and promote new teachings without a name, people often said wise Oriental Zarathrustia said it so people would listen.

Of course, you don't have to believe any of this, but this is what I have read.

>>5563

>consensus by objective academics.

I do not trust "objective academics" because I know them.

> in Talmudic sources that explicitly reference his religion,

The Talmud does not relate to Christianity, as does rabbinical Judaism not relate to Christianity.

>Of course, you don't have to believe any of this, but this is what I have read.

Sure, thanks!

>>4777

>…melt the metal in the hills and mountains, and the molten metal will then flow across the earth like a river. All mankind—both the living and the resurrected dead—will be required to wade through that river…

Sounds a lot like industrialisation.

Is there anything about God dying for you? Because all fall short of God in Christianity and there isn't the clear-cut dichotomy of good = heaven and bad = hell, as technically we're all saved by Christ and THAT'S why we get Heaven.

>>8637

>No! Not my special snowflake religion!

It's an irrelevant detail when debating whether Zoroastrianism or Judaism came first in time before Christianity. But there are better ways for the almighty to save the world. Christian Jesus dies and comes back to life which is like playing a game with all the cheat codes on. A sacrifice where you come back in 3 days is not a sacrifice. There is no finality and it is a fake sacrifice that is totally unnecessary when there are better ways for God to save us from the same hell that he created.

>>8643

This.

You know who I like? Shor.

Shor led the armies of men in the Mythic Era against his elven counterpart, Auri-El. He rallied all the Gods who'd join him to secure humanity's place on Tamriel.

And you know what? He died. Like, actually died. Kyne is his widow and all who knew him mourned him and do still because he, as a God, actually gave up his life for his people.

The logical conundrums of an all-powerful, all-knowing God make it difficult to justify and rationalize many things in the Christian narrative, the figure of Jesus as God and his sacrifice are among them.

>>8644

I also like the Promeythus myth because his sacrifice of giving the knowledge of fire to mankind resulted in an eternity of torture for him. That is an even greater sacrifice than dying once.

There was no practical difference between the Zoroastrians and the Iraelites, they both worshiped God as He had revealed to them, but the Israelites had the distinction of being chosen, set aside from the other nations and put under stricter law. I think that a Great Prophet of Monotheism was sent to every nation, but all of them were killed, forgotten, misinterpreted, or ignored, with the exception of Moses and Zarathustra.

>>4779

Christianity is a mixture of judaism zoro western paganism and mithras worhsip. Atleast, 'the rock' is.

>>8693

Lucifer is the christian version