/christ/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>5828

In my opinion the biggest one are: the saturday is still the holy day, and that dead people are unconscious up until the judgement day.

for a whole disclosure see

>pic related

>>5833

Everytime people bring up White its like they think Smith. Unlike Smith, White never added any type of writing or anything, she just explained prophesies thats it.

>habits

what you mean by dis

>>5875

> and they shun other churches.

like you right now?

>>5878

Basically, White explained the meaning of prophesies, she interpreted, never claim one.

> This is the *true* meaning of the Scriptures as per how Jesus *truly* intended

correct.

>>5878

>Old Testament rules that most Christians deem obsolete. The dietary restrictions chief among them. They also have a somewhat neo-Israelite view of themselves, as per their writings

The saturday is the one that pops my head really, the dietary law are church recommendations, its not a "only vegans will be saved" kinda thing.

I think all denoms can be said to be somewhat neo israelite? since they all claim the New Pact by Jesus. other than that, not really.

>>5878

>If you are an Adventist, it would be better for us the be the ones inquiring while you answer questions.

well, in your whole post i didnt see any questions really. And I dont want dis to be a "debate", just a talk between to bros.

>>5881

>Basically, White explained the meaning of prophesies, she interpreted, never claim one.

So, in essence, she took parts of the Bible, some prophecies, and interpreted them according to her prophetic gifts as to come up with such an interpretation that was significantly different than that of other Protestant groups. Am I understanding this correctly?

> the dietary law are church recommendations, its not a "only vegans will be saved" kinda thing.

Explain more about this. Is it a recommendation in the way that the Ten Commandments are a recommendation, or is it an "Apple a day" type thing?

>I think all denoms can be said to be somewhat neo israelite? since they all claim the New Pact by Jesus. other than that, not really.

No, what I mean by this is that they view Christianity as having more in common with the Old Law than other Christians. The dietary habits straight from the OT, the Sabbath, the somewhat separatist attitude (which might just be prejudice or slander on the part of others) and the main one being the idea of prophecy (ny kind of prophecy) AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ draws a clear divide between Protestanism, Apostolic traditions and Restorationist churches like the SDA.

>well, in your whole post i didnt see any questions really. And I dont want dis to be a "debate", just a talk between to bros.

A debate doesn't always mean angry deus vulting and aggressive proselytizing, not in this board at least. Just an exchange of ideas. I will ask questions then.

1. Do you consider yourself well-educated in the history and doctrine of this Church, the Seveth Day Adventists?

2. Are you a member of this church?

3. Explain in some detail what the doctrinal stance is on how exactly Ellen G White is a Prophetess; how there may be internal disagreements within the Church about this (if any) and then your personal views.

4. What are some specific texts that this church views as having redeeming Spiritual value? I have a copy of "The Great Controversy", though I can't say I've read it all. Are they considered canonical or not?

5. What is an average SDA service like? Meaning, your worship sessions.

6. How do you think this church is viewed by those outside of it, maybe even specific groups (Catholics, Protestants, specific types of protties, atheists, etc.)

7.How degenerate is this church? No offence intended by this, but every church from the Catholics to the Calvinists to the LDS, all have experienced some kind of degradation due to the further secularization and liberalism that is engulfing the world.

8. Are you black? I've noticed that a vast chunk of the SDA membership is Negro. Is there some reason for this, or simple happenstance/ geography?

>>5883

>So, in essence, she took parts of the Bible, some prophecies, and interpreted them according to her prophetic gifts as to come up with such an interpretation that was significantly different than that of other Protestant groups. Am I understanding this correctly?

no. every christian knows that there are prophesies in the bible, you can take a look a Daniel or Revelations for example. But what do htey mean? this is the question is answered.

>1. Do you consider yourself well-educated in the history and doctrine of this Church, the Seveth Day Adventists?

Average, I think.

>2. Are you a member of this church?

Yes

>3. Explain in some detail what the doctrinal stance is on how exactly Ellen G White is a Prophetess; how there may be internal disagreements within the Church about this (if any) and then your personal views.

The offical stament is

>"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28,29; Acts 2:14–21; Hebrews 1:1–3; Revelation 12:17; 19:10.)"

My personal views is that Ellen White "key point" is just to show what do many "abstract" imagery means, ie revelations and such.

To this day, Ive havent found anything that can be seen as "added" or "outside" of the bible. She just explained the things that already are, unlike Smith in which he "adds"

>>5883

>4. What are some specific texts that this church views as having redeeming Spiritual value? I have a copy of "The Great Controversy", though I can't say I've read it all. Are they considered canonical or not?

thats her magnus opus if you will lel. It basically tells how the church came to be, how it was the expirience in 1844, you probably have heard of it, and that many anti-adventist talk about in which they say they "predicted" the coming of the Lord etc. Well she right off the bat talks about this, and what they were really saying, it also talks about eschatology and that this are the last days.

I recommend it bro reading her its like reading any pastor's book, really smooth.

Most of her books are just her own "preachers notes", and about things like family and health.

>>5883

>5. What is an average SDA service like? Meaning, your worship sessions.

In my church, it stars at 9 with some chants from the Adventist Hymnal, which I also recommend, if you have an smartphone you can download an app. Then we have some talks with different people about any biblical topic, for example "agape love" you know those kinda things. At 10 we have the Sabbath School in which the church is divided in classes and discuss pretty much anything bible wise, a full on active feedback, like we are do in you and me( i like this because the church encourage the study and discussion about the bible), at 11 the sermon starts and it ends at about 12 oclock.

>>5883

>6. How do you think this church is viewed by those outside of it, maybe even specific groups (Catholics, Protestants, specific types of protties, atheists, etc.)

honestly? as a cult. Which is a little frustating becasue adventists are one of the biggest denoms worlwide. maybe as a "diehard" or "radical", you know that for the lukewarm christian any real christian is a "radical"

>>5883

>7.How degenerate is this church? No offence intended by this, but every church from the Catholics to the Calvinists to the LDS, all have experienced some kind of degradation due to the further secularization and liberalism that is engulfing the world.

no offence taken. Its against homosexual marriage, and against basically any degenerate thing really lel. Ive met members that are against TV and movies and rock music lel. and i hang out on 8chinz lel

The church had its General Conference about a month ago and voted No against woman ordinance.

>8. Are you black? I've noticed that a vast chunk of the SDA membership is Negro. Is there some reason for this, or simple happenstance/ geography?

Im not, but im not white either. Im like 1/8 black. Well, the adventist church is the more ethnically diverse church in the world iirc, "go and preach to the nations" remember?

>>5881

>like you right now?

Sick burn, bro.

>>5885

> Im like 1/8 black.

>>5889

The church keeps a literal interpretation on it, in my view creationism and evolution are not exclusive. Since I recognize God can do anything, he can do the the universe in 6 days, but since my senses(science) tells my there were billions then I believe that too. If God were to ask me why did I believed in evolution i would say: because my senses said it made sense.

For me, its kinda the "multiverse" theory, in which for every thing there could be multiple answers.

>>5895

>>5893

kek

>>5894

yeah we have more than mormons lel

>>5891

Death Is a Sleep. Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection. The Bible repeatedly calls this intermediate state a sleep.

Referring to their deaths, the Old Testament describes David, Solomon, and the other kings of Israel and Judah as sleeping with their forefathers (1 Kings 2:10; 11:43; 14:20, 31; 15:8; 2 Chron. 21:1; 26:23; etc.). Job called death a sleep (Job 14:10-12), as did David (Ps. 13:3), Jeremiah (Jer. 51:39, 57), and Daniel (Dan. 12:2).

The New Testament uses the same imagery. In describing the condition of Jairus' daughter, who was dead, Christ said that she was sleeping (Matt. 9:24; Mark 5:39). He referred to the deceased Lazarus in a similar manner (John 11:11-14). Matthew wrote that many "saints who had fallen asleep were raised" after Christ's resurrection (Matt. 27:52), and in recording Stephen's martyrdom, Luke wrote that "he fell asleep" (Acts 7:60). Both Paul and Peter also called death a sleep (1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:4). The Biblical representation of death as a sleep clearly fits its nature, as the following comparisons demonstrate: 1. Those who sleep are unconscious. "The dead know nothing" (Eccl. 9:5). 2. In sleep conscious thinking ceases. "His breath goeth forth, . . . in that very day his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4, KJV). 3. Sleep brings an end to all the days activities. "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Eccl. 9:10). 4. Sleep disassociates us from those who are awake, and from their activities. "Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" (verse 6). 5. Normal sleep renders the emotions inactive. "Their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished" (verse 6). 6. In sleep men do not praise God. "The dead do not praise the Lord" (Ps. 115:17). 7. Sleep presupposes an awakening. "'The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth'" (John 5:28, 29).

Sorry for not adding the rest of the infograph

>boom

>>5889

The church keeps a literal interpretation on it, in my view creationism and evolution are not exclusive. Since I recognize God can do anything, he can do the the universe in 6 days, but since my senses(science) tells my there were billions then I believe that too. If God were to ask me why did I believed in evolution i would say: because my senses said it made sense.

For me, its kinda the "multiverse" theory, in which for every thing there could be multiple answers.

>>5895

>>5893

kek

>>5894

yeah we have more than mormons lel

>>5891

Death Is a Sleep. Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection. The Bible repeatedly calls this intermediate state a sleep.

Referring to their deaths, the Old Testament describes David, Solomon, and the other kings of Israel and Judah as sleeping with their forefathers (1 Kings 2:10; 11:43; 14:20, 31; 15:8; 2 Chron. 21:1; 26:23; etc.). Job called death a sleep (Job 14:10-12), as did David (Ps. 13:3), Jeremiah (Jer. 51:39, 57), and Daniel (Dan. 12:2).

The New Testament uses the same imagery. In describing the condition of Jairus' daughter, who was dead, Christ said that she was sleeping (Matt. 9:24; Mark 5:39). He referred to the deceased Lazarus in a similar manner (John 11:11-14). Matthew wrote that many "saints who had fallen asleep were raised" after Christ's resurrection (Matt. 27:52), and in recording Stephen's martyrdom, Luke wrote that "he fell asleep" (Acts 7:60). Both Paul and Peter also called death a sleep (1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:4). The Biblical representation of death as a sleep clearly fits its nature, as the following comparisons demonstrate: 1. Those who sleep are unconscious. "The dead know nothing" (Eccl. 9:5). 2. In sleep conscious thinking ceases. "His breath goeth forth, . . . in that very day his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4, KJV). 3. Sleep brings an end to all the days activities. "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Eccl. 9:10). 4. Sleep disassociates us from those who are awake, and from their activities. "Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" (verse 6). 5. Normal sleep renders the emotions inactive. "Their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished" (verse 6). 6. In sleep men do not praise God. "The dead do not praise the Lord" (Ps. 115:17). 7. Sleep presupposes an awakening. "'The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth'" (John 5:28, 29).

Sorry for not adding the rest of the infograph

>boom

>>5885

I don't know man. This one and the others on the site are just straight up not related to the Bible, they're just things she believed to have been revealed by God. They are all events to come rather than doctrine added, of that's what you meant. I also made the choice to pick a clearly pro-Adventist site for now

http://www.ellenwhite.info/skyscrapers_to_burn.htm

>The Great Controversy

I'll try to continue reading it out of curiosity to see what else I can learn.

>The Services.

Three hour blocks, then. Very similar to LDS.

>honestly? as a cult

You understand why this is right? Firstly, any Church that claims to have the truth of God but teaches something… basically outside what "my" (or anyone's) church teaches is, in the Christian sense, a cult. This is removed from the colloquial use of the word as an abuse and oppressive institution and whatnot.

Think that on this. The Catholic Church claims it's interpretation of Doctrine is correct due to its Apostolic Authority; the LDS makes the same claim. That puts you at odds with these groups. Now, for Protestants who believe in Sola Scriptura, the Bible is the Sole source of authority, and that each man can go and interpret it and as long as you're within certain parameters you are a Christian and you'll be alright.

The SDA are not like this last group, because the claim of Ellen G. White as a Prophetess, which is to say, as having a gift from God to discern the true meaning of Scripture and having Prophetic visions of the future, this is a claim that falls outside the spectrum of Proper Protestanism. None of the founders of their churches made claim to Divine power or authority, they used their earthly intellect to discern from the Bible, and believed one could argue back and forth. You can't do this with SDA's. The claim of this church is Prophecy, modern-day revelation, something Protestanism is extremely wary of and aggressive towards. So, the claim of the SDA is to them like the claim of the Catholic Church, the LDS church, etc; it's extra Biblical, because they believe Prophecy ended with Jesus. That's why Ellen G. White's Prophetic interpretations are against Sola Scripture and cast you as a cult in their eyes. If she had claimed this was just her opinion, things might have been different.

>becasue adventists are one of the biggest denoms worlwide.

>Well, the adventist church is the more ethnically diverse church in the world iirc,

Hmm… probably not. Definitively not actually. Its large for a Restorationist Church, but just the number of Miscellaneous Evangelicals is 285 Million, the Number of Orthodox is between 225-300 Million, and Catholics have a whopping 1.2 *Billion*, all over.

Remove from this number the estimate amount of chameleons and inactive people; which you should always do; you'll have a better idea of the actual amount of SDA people in the world.

For example, and these are really my own musings, this isn't official in any way LDS is 15 million. Subtract from that the amount of inactive or secretly atheist people and you've got maybe 10 mil. Anyone who holds a great number of heretical views isn't a true Mormon, so lets say 9 mil. Remove from that people who are weak, people who are easily led astray, people who are ignorant about their theology or anything like that, we're left with maybe 8.2 mill.

These are random figures, you understand, but its a good exercise for anyone to do.

>>5895

>mfw people really are turning h'white and delightsome.

Flippin' sweet.

>>5904

Do you understand why the SDA have this interpretation though? Why would you go against it if you are a member of this church and you believe a good chunk (I presume) of their teachings? Isn't Ellen G. White's interpretation of the Scriptures inspired by God Himself?

>Soul sleep

So the SDA believe that no one goes to Heaven or Hell *until* the Second Coming, and then you get resurrected and/or judged, and go wherever you belong.

>>5909

>So the SDA believe that no one goes to Heaven or Hell *until* the Second Coming, and then you get resurrected and/or judged, and go wherever you belong.

Correct.

in theology talks it can be known: the beatific vision is not obtained until the judgement day.

>>5907

The thing is, theres not anything that the church preachers thats outside the bible.

>None of the founders of their churches made claim to Divine power or authority

Neither did she.

Do you think Martin Luther claim that too?

this is the prologue of the 28 beliefs:

>he preamble to the 28 Fundamentals states that Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed, and that revision of the statements may be expected during the church General Conference Session:

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture.

Theres no a single beliefs thats extra biblical m8. In fact, since I think you know about church history and the like, the restaurationist point was basically to remove anything that wasnt biblical, and since you put adventist there, then ipso facto the church dont have anything extra biblical.

>>5913

>What about the story of the guy in hell and Lazarus?

The same as Luther:

>Martin Luther taught that the story was a parable about rich and poor in this life and the details of the afterlife not to be taken literally:

Therefore we conclude that the bosom of Abraham signifies nothing else than the Word of God,…. the hell here mentioned cannot be the true hell that will begin on the day of judgment. For the corpse of the rich man is without doubt not in hell, but buried in the earth; it must however be a place where the soul can be and has no peace, and it cannot be corporeal. Therefore it seems to me, this hell is the conscience, which is without faith and without the Word of God, in which the soul is buried and held until the day of judgment, when they are cast down body and soul into the true and real hell. (Church Postil 1522-23)

On the descent:

>Martin Luther, in a sermon delivered in Torgau in 1533, stated that Christ descended into Hell.

The Formula of Concord (a Lutheran confession) states, "we believe simply that the entire person, God and human being, descended to Hell after his burial, conquered the devil, destroyed the power of Hell, and took from the devil all his power." (Solid Declaration, Art. IX)

>>5915

>The thing is, theres not anything that the church preachers thats outside the bible.

I'll take your word for it, its not like I personally hod the Bible in such great regard or have the inclination to fact check all of your beliefs. The dietary restrictions, as I've come to know, do seem to fall outside the Spectrum of Biblical Scripture. I understand that the recommendation against meat is just that, a recommendation, but that fact that its coming from a woman who claims prophetic gifts, that it derives from the OT but is not specifically mentioned in the Bible is what makes some people see it as heretical.

There's also the whole aspect of "work's salvation" too. If you live in America, you've most likely had Protestants treat you with disdain and suspicion; this is because your religion teaches that there are things a person can do, physically, to increase their chance of salvation and their relationship with God. I know you're going to say "What, like keeping the 10 commandments and the Sabbath holy that stuff?" And the answer is "yes" from that point of view, that those things are "incorrect". And again, they're not extra biblical because of what they are, except for the food restrictions, they're extra biblical because of the source.

Like this, from the official SDA website:

>18 The Gift of Prophecy. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which

provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by

which all teaching and experience must be tested.

Again, it doesn't matter that the vast majority of these beliefs are from the Bible (although you'll surely get disdain for anything Old Testament that is deemed invalid by most Christians), its because she claimed Prophetic Gifts and Divine Inspiration in her judgement. Unless Prophetic Gifts means something completely different than what I understand in a Biblical context.

This is because for most Protestants, revelation and prophecy ended when Jesus Christ personally wrote the King James Bible (with the U.S. Constitution inside) and gave it to the people so they could build America. I'm joking, of course, but seriously, they don't believe in it and anyone who claims this sort of direct contact with God will be viewed negatively, even if all you say is "God told me this is the *true* way to interpret this Bible verse".

As for Luther, I wouldn't use him as a positive example in a discussion about your religion's adherence and respect for the Scriptures, seeing as he removed a ton of books from the OT, as well as the Letters of James, those of John, the letters to the Hebrews and the *entire* book of Revelations (he put them in the non-canonical section).

Now I'm just saying this because, firstly, its fun to learn more about this faith, but also so you understand why some people view the SDA as a cult; which in the Christian sense just means anyone who uses the Bible and Jesus to teach "incorrect doctrine". Obviously, as a Mormon, these aren't the sentiments I have towards your faith.

Explain to me this view of the "remnant church". I keep seeing it in your church's documents, and I'd like to hear from you what it means.

>>5949

>they are not restrinstions m8. they are recomendations. Do you consider that no sex before wetlock a restriction too?

Yes I do. Sex before marriage is so sinful it can damn near keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom. But, I'm not arguing from the Mormon perspective, I'm arguing from the Protestant perspective, throughout all my comments, including this one. Remember that.

The main point of that comment though doesn't distinguish between recommendation and restriction; frankly they are many times too similar in consequence to merit distinction. The point was that this idea of meat as sinful or bad for you in any way is extra-biblical. And from what I've read EGW was pretty adamant in this position while still being flexible towards people who are too poor to eat anything other than meat.

>"The controlling power of appetite will prove the ruin of thousands, when, if they had conquered on this point, they would have had moral power to gain the victory over every other temptation of Satan. But those who are slaves to appetite will fail in perfecting Christian character. The continual transgression of man for six thousand years has brought sickness, pain and death as its fruits. And as we near the close of time, Satan's temptation to indulge appetite will be more powerful and more difficult to overcome. It is only through obedience and continual effort that we shall overcome as Christ overcame."

The claim here is that through her prophetic gifts, Ellen G. White was able to discern a practice that can increase one's spirituality if practiced. This would be called "work's salvation" by Protestants. Keep in mind I'm mostly talking about Evangelicals, Baptists and the like. Most protestants believe in Faith Alone though, to my knowledge

>improving one self and being a better christian overall a better human is something that God wants for us.

Ok yes, this is a perfect example of this idea. In talking to you, I feel that you as of yet do not fully understand why some people view your church as a cult (again, in the Christian sense of the word); I'm trying to show you why because these ideas are not something you could readily discern by looking at superficial aspects of the church like you could with other groups. You have to pick apart the theology to see it.

Now then, SDA claims there are things that you can do to improve your chances of being saved and have good look upon you more favorably. Improving one self (vague), the dietary "recommendations" and the Sabbath keeping are parts of this.

>SDA POV: I love God, if I do these physical things, I am more likely to be saved and have God love me even more.

>Protestant POV: I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, there's nothing I could do to earn this salvation and what I do has no bearing on it. I do works because I love God but I know they mean nothing.

You understand? This is a *fundamental* difference in the way your chruch views the faith v. works dilemma, and again, one of the reasons.

>God gave us all some type of gift, what makes that one different?

According to what most Protestants believe, prophecy and revelation ended when the Bible came into existence, so their theology doesn't allow for this idea of Prophetic gifts, which is why they view church church like they do.

>Dont pastors and ministers preach too? dont they claim authority?

I think by now you understand how this is different. They preach, but they don't claim authority from God and hey don't claim prophetic abilities in any way shape or form.

The one thing as of yet that's extra-biblical, again, is the dietary recommendations. Even if they are simply recommendations, it doesn't exempt them from the scrutiny of Protestant Sola Scriptura because the recommendation carries spiritual implications.

>didnt Smith himself?

That's an entirely different conversation, which we can address if you choose to ask me to engage as a Mormon, not as a faux Protestant like I'm doing now.

>I think all christians can agree that in the Last Days they will be a persecuted group, thats the remnant.

I'd suppose then that it matters who is *really* Christian eh? Also, from what I've been reading, it appears the SDA uses this as another name for itself official and common parlance. Which makes sense; all Restorationist churches do this in one way or another.

>>6102

Yes, a couple month ago they voted NO against the ordinance of womans.

>Excommunication

yes, but its extremenly rare, the most commo way if a member do something like idk marrying with a nonchristian person he gets silenced, which means he cant hold any church position for some time.

>It's an interesting idea

it is, you should read about..

>Why are humans evil?

why eve sinned? did satan had more power than God? no, but because she was decieved by her own merits, her own ego, her own free will. If humans didnt had free will to choose satan or God, how could God punish them if they couldnt say no to him?

Theres an interesting theological argument i read that said something like: people dont choose satan, but those that reject God accept satan as default. someting like that.

>>6207

Im not sure what you want me to say kek

Ive written that faith alone is key, the bible said so, the church said so, even ellen said so. Do you mean like, why cant i indulge in every sin? or why shoulnt i induge in them?

Well, Paul iirc said that "should i keep sinning for the grace to abound? absolutely not!"

and "ll things are lawful,” but not all things build up"

"15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it."

We follow The Law not because we are tied with it but because its good

"So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

I dont think you and me are scared by what others might think. I hope.

>>6229

Sorry, I was just trying to continue the conversation, but I think its run its course in that regard.

>>6230

We believe that God intended for the world to be exactly how it is right now, full of horrible degeneracy and sin but also full of virtue and righteousness. Garden of Eden was essentially a Catch-22 for Adam and Eve. Eve realized this and sinned willingly to fulfill God's plan. Thus, we get free will on earth and all that, rather than the idyllic paradise that could have never brought forth humanity in a meaningful way.

>>6231

> but I think its run its course in that regard.

wat yu meem

>>6231

>We believe that God intended for the world to be exactly how it is right now

like full on predestination?

>>6237

what do catholis say on the mattter?

>>6239

I just don't have anything more to say on the matter to be honest. The point is moot too since those aren't even my own opinions but the claims from some other Christian groups.

I can introduce a new question though. I've been browsing openly anti-SDA websites and ran across two interesting ideas that you might be able to comment on.Caveat though, that I don't believe these things necessarily and I'm merely interested in your view. I know its not prudent to take anti-anything websites at face value as they mingle truth with lies and bile as their bread and butter.

One of these is a supposed quote by Ellen G. White in which she says that some races are an amalgamation of man and beast. What is this about?

The other is a comment in which she claims to have seen Saturn, its four moons and its inhabitants.

Had you ever heard of these supposed quotes?

>like full on predestination?

Not quite. This event was rigged, basically, but it was still the first instance of disobedience towards God and thus the completion of the creation of Free Will. Adam had been obeying God, which is good, and Even finished with the disobedience which is, in every other case except for this one, bad. It created the circumstance in which men and women can act according to their own conciseness. Those who are righteous and desire to follow God will do so while those who do not will damn themselves.

Mormonism has a weird mix of proudly proclaimed Free Will doctrine and quietly acknowledged predestination. This is one but not the only example of such a phenomenon.

>>6240

> I know its not prudent to take anti-anything websites at face value

True.

>Saturn

The story tells that while White was on a vision she started to say "i see four and sevens moons", a dude next to her said the might be saturn or jupiter.

Thats it. she never said what were they. If those plantets were on the solar system or not,etc.

No, the report you have heard is not true. Though Mrs. White was shown visions of heaven and of other worlds, she never identified by name any of the other worlds she saw. Others, even at the time she received the vision, made identifications such as this, but she did not. She simply did not know nor was she shown the identity of the worlds she saw.

>amalgamation

no evidence on what Ellen G. White may have meant by what she wrote. And I think Smith was far off the mark, because he seems to think that these people represent a crossing of human with beast. I do not believe that this is what Mrs. White had in mind, because she wrote, "Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast [notice she did not say, "man with beast"], as may be seen in the almost infinite varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men" (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, p. 78). So in her view, the "almost endless varieties of species of animals" are the result of amalgamation. Do we understand this to mean the crossing of man with beast? I don't think anyone will believe that. The crossing that has produced this almost endless variety of animals is not that of man with beast, but of breeding and mutating of animals.

amalgamation is such a cool word.

>This event was rigged

so God not only knew they were going to sin but He even wanted eve to sin?

>>6250

>i dont have a problem with it.

Your doctrine seems to oppose it somewhat though. How do you reconcile that?

> "We believe that the Biblical creation account in Genesis 1 and 2 was a literal event that took place in six literal, consecutive days recently as opposed to deep time. It was accomplished by God's authoritative voice and happened when He spoke the world into existence." Dr. Ted Wilson, World President of the SDA.

I understand that you "can" technically disagree with your leader, but why would you?

>it all makes sense now.

Don't be silly. Why would anyone follow the snake if God did not confirm it? The belief comes through Joseph Smith, who received the confirmation from God that this was so. The snake was Satan, The Adversary, doing his job like he'd done before. Opposition in all things.

>>6251

Quaint.

>>6252

I see it like the multiverse theory.

It "reality" it could be both. Who knows right? the bible tells me it was literally 7 days, human mind tells me it was a little more than that. I "get" both. When God comes and ask me we I believe the human mind I will simply say that that was what my sense told me.

People make a big fuss out of nothing.

>>6255

>Is there anything like this found in SDA specific texts

not to my knowledge. just my thoughts, since I can be sure to know what "actually" happened it could go both way, you know?

>Kabbalistic

could you explain more, wikipedia gives me… gives me… something

>>6258

>since I can be sure to know what "actually" happened it could go both way, you know?

Ok. Sounds agnostic.

>Kabbala

We'll be here all day and derail your thread if we get into it too much, and its not like I'm a level 30 Wizard myself on the subject.

Basically, Kabbala is Jewish mysticism and occultism, and its where the idea of "multiverse" comes from. This cannot be found in Christian tradition or any western pagan religion, to my knowledge. Now, the secular world is familiar with this concept mostly due to the media and the entertainment industry, especially comic books. As you know, both these industries, especially the latter, have been overwhelmingly Jewish since their inception. Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, etc. Whether these people were "into" kabbala, I doubt it personally, but I imagine that's where they got the concept for their comics.

Its an interesting belief system, honestly. Nice to study. And that's me saying that.

>>6261

>agnostic

"no"

>that's where they got the concept for their comics.

never thought of this.

But do they keep a literal interpretation and a nonliteral one too, simultaneously?

what do other jews think of them.

>We'll be here all day and derail your thread if we get into it too much,

nobody will notice

what is your interpretation of the topic? the world is 6000 years flat?

>>6266

>But do they keep a literal interpretation and a nonliteral one too, simultaneously?

No, that's just cognitive dissonance, with all due respect, which is what you're doing. Things only happen one way in each universe, according to kabbala (which, again, not an expert here). So infinite outcomes and infinite possibilities, but only per universe, so either it happened via evolution or directly, never both.

It sounds like you'd rather not bother with the topic and have sort of shelved it, which I understand because, frankly, evolution is so dreadfully boring and irrelevant both to my life and the theology that I have no interest in studying it (beyond the school requirements) or thinking about it, regardless of whether its fact or not.

>what do other jews think of them.

Think of how weird Orthodox Jews look to regular, secular Jews. Now Imagine an Orthodox Jew that believes in magic, aliens, secret rituals and that he can travel to Heaven to steal secrets from God or devise tricky riddles to fool Him. That's Kabbala.

>what is your interpretation of the topic? the world is 6000 years flat?

As of yet I'm sort of leaning on YEC creationism as a safer bet like I told you. Mormonism is a little freer to accommodate evolution than what I have seen of SDA doctrine, but it still requires a lot of things to be interpreted literally. So Adam could have evolved but there *has*to be a literal Adam and Even, not just "humanity" or "the dust", for example.

Some Mormons rely on what in the Elder Scrolls community we call MonkeyTruth. Its ideas that are not canon but are cool, answer questions, are not blasphemy or heresy and seem to be coherent with the narrative. Take for instance the Issue of dinosaurs, many Protestants YEC have a tough time explaining away the evidence of these bastards who are not mentioned in the Bible at all (although I"m sure you could grasp at straws and find some obscure word that means "big animal" or something). Mormon YEC then theorize that, since the Earth was not created ex-nihilo and was organized from pre-existing materials, that the dinosaur bones were part of another world, were *they* were the dominant animal species. They die, get settled in the land, the Second Coming happens in that other world and it serves its purpose, it can then be destroyed and its matter used to create a new world, yours.

That's been one of my placeholder beliefs on the subject, though again, if I think about evolution vs. creationism twice in 6 months its a rare case. I don't mind hearing other people's views on it.

>>6270

>that's just cognitive dissonance

lel

all christians could be said to have a little of cognitive dissonance.

>not created ex-nihilo and was organized from pre-existing materials

Ive heard about this. But not like youre tellin it.

The version ive hear is: God made a universe, people sinned too, they got wiped, God creates another human raca, but with the same universe, thats why we see those bones underground.

>>6284

>all christians could be said to have a little of cognitive dissonance.

Maybe, but you're not the whole of christendom, you're just one man. Cognitive dissonance is unpleasant, to me at least, but if it doesn't bother you then I suppose its no problem.

>Ive heard about this. But not like youre tellin it.

No, like I said this is an exclusively Mormon belief.

>God creates another human raca

Now, are you talking about the Flood story with Noah or are you referring to something else?

>>6287

To something else.

Like, this is Universe 3.0 and there have been other failed sinful humans and their experiments (dinosaurs)

>>6297

ive read it somewhere

let me see if i find it.

What makes Ellen G. White a Prophetess? From what I know about SDA, she didn't come up with any new ideas, new information or anything like that. She interpreted the Bible and, at the most, integrated that to the interpretations of other people she agreed with.

What makes her a Prophetess then? Unless I'm mistaken, by these standards John Calvin or Luther were also Prophets. Well, I guess Luther would be an anti-Prophet then, lol

>>9344

We are talking about the OT

The sabbath and idolatry are considered moral law because the whole 10 can be summarized as the "love for our creator" and "love our neighbors"

>pic related

>>9345

Adventists generally believe that Ellen G. White received visions from God which provided guidance and instruction for the developing movement and which continue to influence the chuch positively today.

In her own writting she says that indeed God used man in the past, Luther an Calvin too. And they corrected and instructed the Church to align more with the Bible.

On how original does a prophet have to be, its a hard question. Because the bible its mixed on this. Lets say the minor prophets, most of them just preached doom for Israel, which I think the concept of punishment for Israel as something new.

Even Daniels prophecies, were based on the dreams of a king, he only interpreted them.

While Luther help move the Church to the bible, he stopped there. Ellen on the hand move on from were he stood short. She not only helped the church to agree with the bible, but also had visions which were original. Ellen writtings on the Great Controversy are truly original. And her interpretations were to the very least pioneering in many was.