/christ/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

T.O.M. here, though on the same boat as you regarding Mormonism, OP.

I love talking about all things Mormon, especially answering theological, cultural or historical questions to the best of my ability.

I'll be setting up my Tent right over there. What do you think of the Book of Mormon, OP?

There's a stark beauty to it, isn't there? A weird mix between the sweet succor of the New Testament and the beautiful violence of the Old Testament. None like it, that's for sure.

>>986

>In short, where is the evidence that Mormonism is true?

Like most religions, anything actually meaningful is beyond what science can prove, basically. Sure, science can prove that Christ walked the earth, and He preached what He did, but it can't prove the Atonement or His Divinity, nor is it its place to do so.

But, Mormonism works a little differently I've noticed. At least the SOP to know whether Mormonism is true or not is this:

1. Read the BoM

2. Pray to God if the BoM is true as per Moroni 10:3-5

3. Receive Answer, get Baptized.

That's it, basically. Just like Chris's divinity, you have to simply have faith. Evidence and the desire for it is a hindrance in the view of Modern Prophets. (That's another story though, ugh)

Every Testimony has a Tower and a Stone, would be the best way to explain it. For example, you bring up these things to a Mormon who may or may not be aware of them:

>how do you know that Joseph Smith wasn't lying out the wazoo?

>He was known as a conman before this incident,

>Polygamy

>Golden Plates Translation

If you're persistent, you've just destroyed the Tower, but they'll turn around still have a testimony because the Stone is intact. The Stone could be the "revelation" via prayer that the BoM is true, which is hard to disprove, could be based on family dynamics or social interaction, could be based on Church History, could be based on the consistency of Doctrine.

The Tower is rebuilt, within minutes or hours at the most. Days if you've been really effective.

Basically, this is why its so difficult to convert LDS people who don't come to you. If you don't know where the Stone is, you'll be fighting ghosts and wasting your time.

So did that one Mormon stop being a Mormon. Even though I don't agree with Mormons when it comes to theology. I still like having them around.

Pic unrelated

For all interested consider this thread in which OP declares himself to be a mormon. Pay attention to the later accusations of mormonism stealing masonic rites from those who appear to be freemasons.

https://archive.is/nR2od

>>981

>Debates can happen, but don't be a dick.

What was that supposed to archieve? I feel almost obligated to be a dick now.

MAGICAL MORMON UNDERWEAR

>>987

These are not attacks at the "tower" but at the very foundation, at this whole bullshit's very origin. Even if you reject all reason and common sense this "revelation" that something is true via prayer, of which the Bible already says it's not, is not a stone but a quicksand. Stone you should be building should be Jesus Christ anyway.

Gal 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

2 Cor 11:4

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Now ask yourself, is bom not "another gospel"?

>>991

OP said he's not a mormon.

>These are not attacks at the "tower" but at the very foundation, at this whole bullshit's very origin.

Re-read my post because I don't think you understood what I said.

> Even if you reject all reason and common sense this "revelation" that something is true via prayer, of which the Bible already says it's not, is not a stone but a quicksand. Stone you should be building should be Jesus Christ anyway.

And here you show that you didn't understand my post at all, because I clearly stated that Mormonism is differently, which is why its so difficult to convert people.

Like I said, you can bring up ALL of these things, but if you don't know where the stone is you are fighting ghost. Yes, believe it or not the Stone CAN and IS something which has nothing to do with what you've said because you're looking at it from a Christian perspective, but Mormons don't care when the Bible contradicts the BoM because the Bible is inferior to the BoM in matters of authority.

It is most definitely a Stone and not quicksand by the mere fact that most Mormons can withstand attacks on their faith, even to have all this thrown at them, and still have a testimony because its not always (more often than not, really) based on these things, but on esoteric metaphysical concepts, hermetic divination or social interactions.

An example to better illustrated:

You meet a Mormon, and promptly throw all this anti-Mormon stuff at her (Destroy her tower). She says "Yes, it is true, and I am still a Mormon and I still believe". This can happen because the Stone of her testimony happens to be her family. She doesn't care about the History, or the Doctrine, or the Bible (the Tower), she cares about how her family treats her. If her dad rapes her or her parents get divorced, she'll loose her faith, but nothing else can shatter it, certainly nothing that you can do.

Do you understand now the concept of the Tower and the Stone?

>>992

Let me try and help.

>Mormon theology fails in my opinion since they assume the God of our universe is just one among many, and was Himself a human before, just like we are called to become Gods ourselves in the future. That I cannot take because why not worship the very first God?

The relationship between God and His Children in Mormonism is not as the one in Christianity. His powers of Creation are important, but not paramount; the fact that He gave life to YOU specifically, that's what's paramount.

And so, the "first God" (which Mormonism doesn't reject but I've never once heard a thing about, I think LDS theology is Aristotelian in that approach of the universe always having existed and being un-created). You worship your Father because He is, and He worshipped His Father because that's the natural order of the Universe, the same way your children would worship you after exaltation.

The Original Creation of the Universe simply isn't relevant to Mormons.

>We know Indians aren't Jews and aren't the lost tribe.

Mormons either ignore this (which is really easy to do) or just go with the apologist view. This means, not all indians came directly from Laman and Lemuel, but rather they took Indian wives (who came from Asia as modern science believes) and voila! BoM and modern scientific theories reconciled just like that.

>God living on a planet called Kolob

Kolob is a star and God doesn't live there, rather, that's the closets landmark we are aware of to know where He lives; Kolob is nearest unto His throne, not where it is.

>>1003

If you're trying to be a trollbait you're doing it right.

Still I must assume you're not. I'll do you a favour this once and I'll attempt to translate your post into what a channer would understand:

"PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME PLEASE TROLL ME"

I don't know how have you found this place and by this place I mean imageboard but you're practically sticking your arse up and leaving it wide open for everyone willing to take advantage of it.

>>1005

> If that had happened, there would be remnants of Jewish DNA in Indians, even if very little, but there are none whatsoever.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mormon apologeticts, where I (in this scenario acting as the Mopologist) don't have to prove a dang thing and you're stuck trying to prove a negative to people that don't really care about what you have to say.

Basically, there's always some line of defense for this. As of late they are explaining it away with "Genetic Drift", meaning that since it was only 2 guys, it was so long ago and Asian genes are dominant, Jewish genes have been essentially lost in time.

Other people have even bigger balls and just claim that God changed their DNA when he cursed them with the Skin of Blackness.

> If "God" is just an updated human, why not worship the source of it all, the only thing deserving of the title "God"?

Because, once again, the creation of the universe is just not important. Mormon theology doesn't specify but it operates under the assumption that the universe is eternal and uncreated, simply always was and always will be and there is no First Mover.

Also, the end goal is to become a God. You don't do that by worshiping a faceless First Mover who may be your great-great great- GrandFather or might not even exist; you become a God by Worshiping Elohim. Don't think about it from a Christian perspective.

>If there's one definition of God we can almost all agree with it is that of being the creator of everything.

Not Mormons. God in Mormonism is only the creator of our immediate universe and planet, and He did not even create the raw materials but rather organized pre-existing materials that were already in place.

I shit you not, Mormonism just does not care in the slightest about the First Mover, and many outright reject the possibility that the universe is not an eternal sequence of Gods begetting Gods begetting Gods.

>You sure? Because the texts themselves aren't sure whether it's a planet or a star:

Some early Mormons used the Terms interchangeably, but the Book of Abraham says Star so its a Star.

>Regardless, the idea of God living on a planet or near a star is just heresy, and it flies in the face of the Incarnation.

Only if you think about it as heretical Christianity, when its in fact an entirely different religion. Also, in the eyes of Mormonism, all of Christendom is an abomination because they "reduced" God to a faceless, distant, incorporeal alien and humanity to his slaves instead of his heirs (literally).

>It's just silly in my opinion. Where did Smith learn Egyptian hieroglyphics? Inb4 God helped in translation, straight from the sandy beaches of Kolob 3, via Angel Express Communications.

You just answered your own question, this is exactly what Mormon Prophets claim happened.

God helped in translation, straight from the sandy beaches of Kolob 3, via Angel Express Communications.

You see, it wasn't real Egyptian, it was Reformed Egyptian, which is a super secret language that only prophets understand. So, of course to the foolish gentile Egyptologists it looks like regular ol' 'gyptian, but they'll never be able to decode the sikrit club meaning because they ain't chosen (This is literally it, I'm not even joking).

I lost my testimony not that long ago. I didn't have a problem with any of this, but I had a problem with the behavior of Modern Prophets.

>>1006

Trolls only bother those who let themselves be bothered. I really couldn't care less if they are just trying to act retarded, good discussion can thrive regardless of their antics.

>>1007

I used imagery and ideas from another made-up theology I'm extremely familiar with: Elder Scrolls Theology. Glad its come in handy outside of /tes/.

OP here, looks like we got a good healthy thread going. :^)

Glad Elder T.O.M. could drop in, too.

>>982

>so if the missionaries get invited into someone's home I heard that if the person asks them to do something they will do it.

Yeah, in a way. I asked for an LDS edition of the KJV, they got me one. I asked for a triple combo, and they're working on getting me one, and Elder P offered to loan me his.

Remember, guys, be kind to missionbros, even if you disagree with their beliefs. They're paying money and time out of their youth to share to the world what they believe to be true.

I wasn't out to destroy their testimony and I asked my questions out of genuine curiosity, so they were willing to stick around and have multiple appointments, and I was able to have some deep discussions with them. Even after I made crystal clear to them that I don't bear a testimony and probably won't get baptized anytime soon, Elder P still lent me his triple combo and they're still working on getting me my own. Perhaps out of hope that I'll gain a testimony, but still, it just warms the fuck out of my heart.

But I have to concur with the other anons, just those little things about their history and theology taint the whole thing, even the good things, and you're really left with no choice other than to sadly enjoy it and marvel from the outside.

Even if their beliefs per se die out, I hope the overarching culture survives, because all the bullshit and historical whitewashing aside, they really have something beautiful going for them.

>>984

I remember how it strengthened my faith when I read it. It glorifies classic Protestant doctrines that I know and love, and simply made believing in Christ cool again (I just couldn't reconcile it with the doctrines they shoehorned in later on). Aside from the ridiculous amount of and it came to passes and grammatical errors here and there, the language does have a beauty to it, similar in structure to yet distinct in feel from KJV English.

But yeah, it's definitely something. Even inspired, possibly. Imagine if the early Saints stuck more closely to its Protestant theology and if stuff like polygamy, D&C 130 and the King Follet sermon never happened, how American history might've turned out differently.

>>1041

Nope, I'm a Protty.

>>1050

What kind of Protty?

>>1110

GEEEEEET

>>1111

>>1112

I hope you had fun wasting our first quadget, fagget.

>>1146

Here's the Fort Lauderdale floor plan:

https://sites.google.com/a/mormontemplefortcollins.com/mormon-temple-fort-collins/what-will-the-temple-look-like/sample-level-one-floor-plan

Does the chapel in near the middle that they also do special sacrament meetings, or is it more of a place for quiet contemplation/prayer? Also of interest are the rooms "youth", "administration", "counselor", "initiatory", "confirmation", "president", "matron", etc.

T.O.M. if you happen to read this, can you help me out? I'm the guy that basically shattered your faith and now I feel like shit about it. I've been reading into the histories of the catholic church, gnostic writings, apocrypha, different Christian denominations, etc. and honestly, every single one is based on lies without exception. I almost hate myself for even digging up the history of these things now.

The Bible itself seems to just be a patchwork of different writings that people included because it fit the narrative they were going for. I have come to the depressing conclusion that every denomination is false and that the Bible is too untrustworthy to take as 100% true or even mostly true anymore.

I can't ignore the fact that the old testament contains polytheism. I just can't pretend that it's really this unbroken narrative of one God that became man when there's so much evidence that Jews worshiped different Gods but one sort of stuck for whatever reason and they pretended they were monotheistic all along. Even the messianic prophesies are too imperfect for me to handle.

I feel sick even writing this because I want to believe in Christianity so fucking badly but I just don't, I can't. Should I just become a Mormon even though I know full well that it's all bullshit? The idea of a white American prophet is really the only reason I am even considering this. Although admittedly I have no idea if I could even pretend to believe in it for very long at all.

Please help, I am at the end of my spiritual rope here.

>>1270

I'm not TOM but I dare to answer anyway

>>1270

> and honestly, every single one is based on lies without exception.

That is not true. Diverse Archeological findings have approved that the bible is a reliable source

>The Bible itself seems to just be a patchwork of different writings that people included

Yes that's no secret and if you're no protestant you're well aware of this. The bible didn't fall from the sky but the church composed it.

> the Bible is too untrustworthy

You haven't brought a point yet why the bible should be untrustworthy. Bring an example please, maybe it's all a big misunderstanding.

>I can't ignore the fact that the old testament contains polytheism.

The old testament does not propose polytheism and those who fell for it are punished.

It's the same with polygamy.

>and they pretended they were monotheistic all along

That's a contradiction. On the one hand you claim that the jews were polytheists and the OT proves that which is even true but as I've said god punished them for that and on the other hand you claim the wouldn't admitt it.

>Should I just become a Mormon even though I know full well that it's all bullshit?

Why should you follow a lie when you already know it's a lie?

>The idea of a white American prophet is really the only reason I am even considering this.

> I am at the end of my spiritual rope here.

No you are not that is not spiritual at all. Stop making your spiritual believes subject to your profane worldly ideology and it would already be helped a lot.

Oolf has summed it up good once, it was like: "The bible cannot be made up since noone would have thought up a character like Jesus. He was so different from other religious figures that an author who had made him up would have been laughed at."

>>1274

> I have no way of knowing

That's why it's called faith.

>Well, for example the gospels tell completely different accounts of certain events.

Which is why a literal interpretation of the bible is invalid, the officials are aware of that.

We also have to creation myths i.e. but I see no problem with that.

There is a certain meaning to it and the people who composed the bible were aware that certain parts obviously contradict each other, it's not like anyone would want to cover that up.

> but if that's true why doesn't it just say that?

The idea of "Gods" is a concept that people knew. I don't know the semantics in detail here sorry, but I think that the fact that the bible used contemporary language and metaphor doesn't take anything away from it.

>There's no clear descriptions of hell or Lucifer's fall from grace.

Maybe it's better if we don't know in detail. Maybe it's just incomprehensible for our mind I don't know. There are however descriptions of hell if you're interested in that. People have seen it through visions, miracles and appearances.

>Why is everything so significant also so cryptic and vague?

When St. Augustine came to a beach once he saw a little boy playing. The boy tried to pour all of the sea into a single seashell.

When the Saint saw that he told him that it was impossible to do that.

The boy answered that not everything is to be understood by humans.

It's called mystery of the faith, there are things that cannot be understood through (human) reason but faith alone.

>What I mean to say is that it feels like they have retconned the whole thing to fit the single God narrative.

Why should anyone want to do that? Polytheism was perfectly fine back then there was no reason to "force" monotheism.

>Why is Jesus' name not Emmanuel?

That's why laymen shouldn't start interpreting the scripture.

Matthew 1 23

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son,

and they shall name him Emmanuel,”

which means “God is with us.”

He is emanuel because he is the one that affirms that god is with us.

That argument is like claiming that god's true name was Jehovah.

>What the fuck does blaspheming the Holy Spirit even mean?

I am happy not to know that in detail.

>There are so many questions unanswered.

Yes but it is no tragedy.

> I just feel like everything is a lie now.

Your feelings fool you.

>Don't you know that we are dying out?

Yes but in the end it has no meaning. All nations will die and be washed away.

There is a lot of bad stuff happening in the world and there are people who try to mix up the truth with the lie but they will lose in the end.

That's all we have.

>g such an effeminate character

Jesus is no effaminate character, he is in fact the most heroic character you can think of.

What woman would have expelled the money changers from their temple with a whipe?

Don't fall for modernist/universalist propaganda please.

They try to make up a god of their own since Satan doesn't want to be worshipped as devil but as god.

> It's a religion for a time of peace but it's being used against us at this point so why follow it anymore?

Christianity != pacifism

>Buddha said a lot of similar things

Buddhism and why it is one of the most evil "religions" is a whole different topic that I don't really want to get started with.

>I am really not trying to shit on Christianity or Jesus at all here but I just can't bring myself to believe anymore.

I believe you and I wish I could help sufficiently.

>Sorry, I know its really annoying to even talk to a person who has completely lost their faith like me and I'm sure /Christian/ would probably ban me for even bringing it up.

I agree. That's why we are here

>>1270

T.O.M. here.

I'm sorry to hear about your crisis of faith, brother; I can't tell you just how much that post meant to me.

Frankly, I'm not the best person to answer these questions regarding the Bible and the legitimacy of Christianity. I've basically just chosen to believe in God and Christ because I've already lived my life as an Atheist and it was miserable, so if some form of loving God doesn't exist I honestly have little incentive not to kill myself, slowly or quickly.

That said, my area of expertise is Mormonism, that I can help with; more specifically the experience of being a non-believer in the Church for social reasons.

Not going to lie, it has many perks. The people are honestly amazing, like none you've ever met. The sense of community and familiarity that you get in the church is incredible. Its a great way to move up in life, there's a guy in my ward who helps people get jobs and whatnot for free, and you make many important contacts (depending on your area, honestly).

I'm literally the only non-white person in the entire ward, which I don't mind at all; this considering that the town is not uber-white but a multicultural Liberal college town teeming with "diversity" (only about 85% white, which is 5% below my acceptable rate).

Honestly though? I'd say exhaust every possible Spiritual resource before you even consider resigning yourself to a life of Atheism in the LDS church. Its…not the worst fate in the world, but its not great either. I used to believe fervently, or at least tried to and really enjoyed it. Now, its all a calculated effort to reap all the secular benefits; I only strategically pay tithing and only attend events that seem to offer some social mobility.

I pass the Sacrament with Rosary beads in my pocket, and I've got a copy of the Baghavad-gita right by my pictures of Joseph Smith and the Temple.

>>1270

There are parts you're somewhat right about and there are parts you misconstrue to the point I don't even know what are you talking about.

If you're game enough go through material from >>1266 and when you do ask questions in that thread, I'll answer to my best ability.

>>1277

>>1294

Forgot to link these posts together.

But I also wanted to add one more thing about Christianity that really bothers me lately. It's shit like this billboard that makes me hate Christianity as a religion. When I see stuff like this it makes me feel like Christianity is a weapon being used to genocide my people and I absolutely hate it.

I feel like I am fighting a war against my own religion because people who hate me for my race are killing me with it.

>>1296

Oh man, I absolutely hate that stuff as well. But, you can't let that take away from the true meaning of your faith. I think people will always view religion through the lens of their own opinions and such, indeed I can see you and I both do.

There are many Christians out there that are not sjws or actively working towards the destruction of the White Race. I know its important to have a sense of community, but at the end of the day I do think religion is meant to be a deeply personal experience.

/pol/ runs deep, man. The redpill changes you. I used to laugh and not take any of this stuff seriously. Now I only laugh because otherwise I'd cry.

>

Alright I will. Although admittedly it would be a life of believing in God and just pretending that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. The crazy thing is that the more I have read the apocrypha and gnostic texts, the more I started to actually agree with Joseph Smith's beliefs

That's a crazy rabbit hole to go down through, I know that well my friend. Rest assured, I do think it comes full circle and you're at step one again where you see Smith as just an extremely charismatic megalomaniac who did in fact believe his own lies.

OP here, dear God, where do I begin. Tears are literally flowing out of my eyes while I'm typing this whole thing, fucking damn it.

The elders came over again today. They delivered my own brand new triple combo and we went way, deep deep down the rabbit hole with Mormon theology, it was awesome. We talked about this shit I read about Orson Pratt and this thing he came up with in the JoD (The Holy Spirit and the Godhead) to reconcile biblical monotheism with the King Follet sermon. I read it that talk/sermon earlier this week, and though I loved the part about the Holy Spirit being omnipresent and in all things and sustaining all things and shit, but he also goes heretical and says that there's an infinite amount of "Heavenly Fathers", each with their own planet and it's only the "attributes" of light/power/glory/whatever that are truly absolute, not the personal God himself. It's all heretical as fuck. The missionaries this time didn't really come over to teach a lesson, but to "answer any questions I might have", probably since the whole process has been halted by me declining baptism a few weeks ago and all. Anyway, I showed them that sermon, and they were almost as clueless as I was, but damn it, we went fucking deep researching all the scripture references and them telling me about their take on all of it and how doctrine can be "deep doctrine", and how they think the reformation ties into the restoration, how they believe in eternal progression. Elder P even said how he used to believe in pantheism as a child. They even let me tell them about Protestant beliefs about God and the Trinity and all that shit. And the best part was it all felt so genuine and authentic, like even though we were being tactful, we were still being honest to each other. And even more, there was love.

I love them, /christ/. Not in a gay way, but just simple, pure brotherly love. Like all I wanna do is become their BFFs and be around them all day and know everything about them from their birthdate to their favorite food to relationships with girls and just talk about God and Christ all day like it's as natural to us as breathing. It's like they're really my spirit brothers, and we're uniting after years and years being separated.

Fuck, my nose is all stopped up with snot. Mormons tend to cry a lot when touching spiritual matters come up. I've seen it in recordings of talks and firsthand on two separate occasions. It's like I'm becoming one of them now or some shit. I'm probably being utterly delusional about all of this right now, but it's what I feel. Then again, it might be 100% real and this is the Spirit speaking straight to me. I don't know what to think anymore. Schroedinger's Cat is a metaphysician's best friend, I guess.

Anyway, we wrapped it all up, briefly chatted about personal stuff, and elder Mans (pseudonym) closed us out in this goddamn beautiful and eloquent prayer, wishing me luck in my studies and search for truth. I can't help but feeling the same way for them, with all my heart. I hope they have a good, safe mission, don't run into any assholes, and even hold fast to their testimony. Because, God damn it, they're my brothers. I know they are.

Shit, I'm a fucking mess right now, and I don't even know why. Sorry about the pony and the incoherent rambling, I just needed to get that all out. I'mma go cry myself to sleep now.

>>1337

Wow, sounds like you got a couple of really… "open" Missionaries. Its SOP to leave people alone if they refuse baptism, and they are definitely supposed to leave if you start showing them stuff from the internet (though the King Follet Discourse isn't bad or anything).

In my time, I've found a lot of Mormons just aren't curious people. They would be aware of Eternal Progression and Possible Apotheosis, but might believe it was just there from day one or just straight up not wonder where it came from at all.

I know that feel though. I still think Mormonism would be the best religion on this Earth if it was true. Shit, parts of it might be true for all I know, since Joseph Smith did so much theological patchwork in the 1830's.

>>1682

Funny, I was always the other way around. I mean, I loved the BoM. Its more warlike and nationalistic like the OT but with Christ in it (although technically Christ is the God of the OT, but you know what I mean). But, of course I had issues with some of the innacuracies; horse and wheat and stuff.

Never cared about that since Joseph Smith was this Greater than life figure to me. I still admire him lots, to be honest. Brilliant man, though he was right when he said we'll never know his story.

>>1933

1. Yes

2. No, you cant pray to Jesus or the Holy Ghost. You Pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

3.Either as powerful as God the Father, more powerful if they are older and less powerful if they are younger. Who knows, but God the Father is definitely not like the God of Trinitarian Christianity.

>>1933

>Wow, sounds like you got a couple of really… "open" Missionaries. Its SOP to leave people alone if they refuse baptism, and they are definitely supposed to leave if you start showing them stuff from the internet (though the King Follet Discourse isn't bad or anything).

>In my time, I've found a lot of Mormons just aren't curious people. They would be aware of Eternal Progression and Possible Apotheosis, but might believe it was just there from day one or just straight up not wonder where it came from at all.

>I know that feel though. I still think Mormonism would be the best religion on this Earth if it was true. Shit, parts of it might be true for all I know, since Joseph Smith did so much theological patchwork in the 1830's.

>>>1682

>Funny, I was always the other way around. I mean, I loved the BoM. Its more warlike and nationalistic like the OT but with Christ in it (although technically Christ is the God of the OT, but you know what I mean). But, of course I had issues with some of the innacuracies; horse and wheat and stuff.

>Never cared about that since Joseph Smith was this Greater than life figure to me. I still admire him lots, to be honest. Brilliant man, though he was right when he said we'll never know his story.

>>>1933

>1. Yes

>2. No, you cant pray to Jesus or the Holy Ghost. You Pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

>3.Either as powerful as God the Father, more powerful if they are older and less powerful if they are younger. Who knows, but God the Father is definitely not like the God of Trinitarian Christianity.

>>1954

>>1954

No, or at least if there is He has not revealed Himself to anyone. As of yet we are left to assume that the Universe is eternal and uncreated, and that Gods who beget men who become Gods have simply always existed.

We don't know why the First Mover (if there even is one) created men, but we know why God the Father created us. Its in the BoM in 2 Nephi

>24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

>25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Partly because it is the Holy Mandate, and His Father gave Him life in a similar way. Also so we may know joy.

I say "we" and "us" and all that stuff, still. Gosh, its deep in me. Anyway, this is what Mormons believe.

>>1984

Well, Joseph Smith wasn't the one who recieved the Revelation on the Priesthood ban, that was Brigham Young. Smith did give the priesthood to 2 blacks, though he was also a man of his time and did not believe in miscegenation "Had I anything to do with the Negro, I would confine him to his own race".

That said, Smith was a very Godly man, and if he truly believed the Revelations to be legitimate, I think he would have been ok with them. Its also entirely within the realm of possibility that he would slap all the General Authorities, Curse at them words so foul that'd make the African Warlords blush, kick them out of SLC and create a new Theocracy, probably causing a bloody civil war.

You might be more like Ogden Kraut, an Independent Mormon fundamentalist who believes the Church strayed from God after the Revelation on Polygamy.

The changes to the BoM I've mized feelings with. Some have been obvious clarifications and spelling corrections, that's fine. Some were 100% to appease Jews and those who follow their beliefs, anything dealing with "dark skin" was toned down and such.

Its a shame, though its still much more conservative than the majority of Christian churches in America (conservative being a very subjective term).

I'm still holding out for Elder Packer to become the Prophet so we can unfurl the old Windmill flags that once flew side by side with Angel Moroni. This is a half-joke

>>1985

What really bothers me is that the LDS church changed 2 Nephi 30:6 from white and delightsome to pure and delightsome. It is downplaying and erasing the racial message of the book.

And if Joseph Smith said blacks could be priests I would rather go with what he said than what Brigham young said. I still think segregation and not race mixing would be better also though. Doesn't the book of Mormon say that the curse is only lifted by their skin turning white? It's fucked up for these "prophets" to completely change Joseph Smith's message.

The parable of the vineyard in Jacob 5 seems to indicate that we should not mix civilized and uncivilized people together. Because it produces much fruit but it's all bad fruit. It's warning us (the whites) against embracing multiculturalism. Now we can say "see what happened? You didn't listen to the Book of Mormon".

>so we can unfurl the old Windmill flags that once flew side by side with Angel Moroni

Is that supposed to indicate the coming Mormon theocracy or something?

>>2046

>>2047

>I don't understand how there can be multiple Mormon churches from the very beginning if the LDS is really supposed to be the one true church.

Because what God wants and what man intends to do are two different things.

>Didn't Joseph Smith's son found a different church. Why should Brigham young have the one true Mormon church?

Well, that all really depends on who you believe, honestly. Prophecy isn't genetic, so Smith III doesn't get a "genetics" boost. Brigham Young was Smith's close friend AND a member of the Quorum of 12 in good standing. He also managed to establish a thriving city in one of the most barren and horrible places in America, and create what is unarguably the most powerful LDS denomination in the world.

Still, I'm sure that the Reorganised Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints still believes in Smith III despite all that; though I doubt he'd be pleased by them abandoning Scripture (like the Pearl of Great Price) and ordaining female priests and whatnot.

> I don't buy into that "continuing revelation"

The problem is you can't NOT believe in continuing revelation and not be LDS. Even wack jobs like the Fundamentalist LDS understand that the current Prophet is the link to God and what he says, goes. Its a cornerstone of LDS theology. I feel you that it sucks when the Revelations are lame, changes are made due to political reasons and such, but in this regard a critic has no ground to stand on because it is completely in accordance to LDS theology.

If you're actually a believer in Joseph Smith, and you don't mind not having any religious community, I'd recommend checking out this guy called Ogden Kraut. He was a GA in the church but he left in the 70's because he felt the church had lost its way, and that there was no legitimate Prophet on Earth, a second Great Apostasy had begun.

He basically just practiced by himself and a few other Independent Mormons (or, Joseph Smith Mormons, as they called themselves, since they only recognized the Prophets up to John Taylor and none after). He wrote a ton of fascinating books and he married three women (or so I think, more than one for sure) that he convinced to leave the church with him.

>but when it means that scripture that is changed for PC reasons, fuck that.

Hmm… yes and no. This is where Mormonism gets a reputation for duplicity. See, we all understand what the stuff really means (barring resent converts and morons), and we're fine to talk about it with eachother. Ah, but for the camera, and for the Gentiles (that's you, and all other non-members); for you all its "milk before meat". Essentially, if things have to be tweaked a bit and "deep doctrine" has to be set aside in mixed company, that's fine. But once that's past, we can speak openly.

Tribal identity, for example. You won't hear that in General Conference or when the missionaries come to your door, but we believe it. That means that, for example, the Tribe of Ephraim (White Europeans) are naturally good at leading and organizing and being in charge because God ordained it so. Every race has its distinct talents and roles. We are not equal, we are distinct in character but united in purpose.

>>2049

>Ogden Kraut

I kind of like the idea of being an independent Mormon considering I don't live anywhere near Utah (my town is so anti Mormon that they had to hide the LDS church behind a Methodist church) but I guess it sort of defeats the whole purpose in a way. I might as well just be a baptist who doesn't drink coffee or whack off at that point.

>the Tribe of Ephraim (White Europeans) are naturally good at leading and organizing and being in charge because God ordained it so

Ok, that's all I needed to hear. I'm sold again.

But in all honesty I am still completely on the fence here. I tried doing all the words of wisdom and chastity stuff and I am gonna be one seriously shitty Mormon. At least for a while, this stuff is no joke. Plus every one of my friends and family thinks I've lost my mind for even talking to the missionaries. We'll see what happens I guess.

STILL no coffee? somebody have a damn continuing revelation on that!

>>2290

>Both were 19-year-olds and both had to get dunked twice because the top of their head or elbow was sticking out.

LOL, nice. You can never say that the Mormons half ass it.

>>2296

>Why should there even be a need for other prophets after Jesus?

Like with the Catholic/Orthodox Church, to keep the church stable and from splitting into 39,000 different sects and denominations and shit. Makes division, though it's inevitable, less rampant.

>Also, are the members of LDS aware that it is a scam?

>your church is a scam and you probably know it ayy lmao ayy lmao

>but mine isn't because reasons ayy lmao

Sounds a bit like David Silverman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BCipg71LbI

>>2292

Well, good luck to you. God bless you and may you find what you are after.

>>2299

>But it is so obvious.

Hmmm… how to explain it? Nothing is that easy m8. Think on this.

1. Grow up in the Church

2. Grow up seeing all of this from day one which makes it completely normal as opposed to odd (which is how you find it)

3. Grow up viewing all good things in your life as direct results of your good actions in the church (got a job? its cause you paid tithing; got a sexy girlfriend? its cause you went on a mission).

4.Persecution complex. The church is true, but part of this is that people will always try to tear you down. What you just said would strengthen someone's testimony.

5. Test: The Prophets command that saints avoid any activities that are not uplifting or productive, including looking up any anti-mormon literature. When one of these ideas inevitably finds its way to you, its a Test from God or Temptation from the Devil and you become stronger by facing it and continuing to believe, which means that the Church is true.

>inaccuracies

This means miracles

>misconception

This means YOU ain't inspired

>pseudo fancy KJV English for reasons.

Since the KJV is God's preferred Bible, it follows that the BoM would Translated in a similar manner (I've spent enough time on fairmormon.org to imagine they'd say something like this).

>also changing scriptures is prottie tier

Funny, that's what they say about you all. Catholics, I mean. "The Great and Abominable Church", that's Cathortodoxy. Its the reason why Exaltation, Eternal Progression and such aren't in the Bible, don't you know?

Lol, even after all this, the interesting thing is that it took the Church clashing with my politics for me to start having an issue with it. I actually ended up liking the Church even more after I started researching early history (another thing that usually fucks with young testimonies) and anti-mormon literature.

>>2317

Personal beliefs about the proper role of government. LDS is fine with authoritarianism so long as they get the be the ones making the rules. That hasn't happened since 1877 (or 1890, depending on whom you ask).

I believe we have enough of God's word supplemented by our scientific discoveries of the natural world to create a balanced, respectful, heroic society focus solely on human improvement; while foregoing the selfishness of "enlightenment" philosophies and the counter-evolutionary imperatives of democracy.

Christ will be the perfect autocrat, when He comes. I just think there's no reason we can't give it our best shot in the meantime.

Remove degeneracy

Regardless of your personal beliefs, I'd appreciate it if you all could say a prayer for this man.

Elder L. Tom Perry. He was the Second most Senior member of the Quorum of the 12 and he presumed successor to Thomas S. Monson; he died 2 days ago on May 30th.

He was a good, kindhearted man and he will be missed.

The seniority now falls on Elder Russel M. Nelson, since President Boyd K Packer is very old and ill and is very unlikely to survive President Monson.

>>2320

>Are they prophets?

Yes, they prophesied that the virgin Mary would return on a specific day and it happened.

>They had visions but it is not like they revealed something new

Mary also gave them additional prophesies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_F%C3%A1tima

>Maybe that's semantics, I don't know

It is, but I understand what you mean. Maybe you could call them "minor prophets" but they are still technically prophets.

Will I still be able to fap to ponies when I join the church?

>>2377

>basic reproductive drive is bad

Outside the confines of marriage? Heck yes it is. If God gives you a hammer and you use it for anything other than productive endeavors, you're doing it wrong.

>>nocturnal emissions are also apparently bad

This falls outside your control, it is an involuntary response of the body. That said, if they are frequent for you you may indeed be doing something awful to accelerate your little factory.

>>something something gay agenda

Evil, but entirely different. This refers to a comment by St. Thomas on how masturbation is a weakness in man, and this effeminate.

Not your confessor though. Can I help you with anything LDS related?

>>2379

>Outside the confines of marriage?

But marriage is a social construct, not a sex organ.

Of course I'd get blasted into the next week if I said that as a church member, but that's ultimately what it is, even if it's somehow divinely condoned.

>little factory

Oh God, that little pamphlet. They put that damn thing in the Gospel Library app. It sucks and literally has no medical or even theological merit whatsoever.

But yeah, I'm just not one to think masturbation is "evil". It can be overdone and abused to the point of interference with faith and life, yeah, but usually that's not the case. See also: health benefits of masturbation.

>Can I help you with anything LDS related?

Actually, yeah, glad you asked. And it's alright.

>If I join can I still occasionally go to my old church with my dad and other churches I know people at, among other ecumenical things?

>Can/should I pay tithing on net income?

>Will I be a black sheep or have difficulties if I regard and proclaim Heavenly Father (and the rest of the Godhead) literally as the Source and Supreme Creator of the universe/reality, ex nihilo, and not just a "common god" (a.k.a stuff the standard works already teach)?

Or believe in the obvious trinitarian things the Book of Mormon says about the Father/Son/Holy Ghost being one, and not just "muh purpose"? I mean, the King Follet sermon is admittedly cool in ways and very well may have truth to it, but God is still the Absolute in my book.

>is the endowment ceremony literally the same every time, considering I'll probably be urged to go again and again to do proxy baptisms? Is it as boring as it sounds?

>What are the confirmation lessons like?

>Are temple garments uncomfortable in hot midwestern weather?

>How would I go about explaining my decision to join this church to my family and church friends (currently not objecting harshly to my curiosity, but not thrilled either)? Do I just need a strong testimony or a sense of humor?

>A guy who goes to the local meetinghouse told me that it's not uncommon for young converts to go on missions a year or two after joining. Is that true?

>Besides word of wisdom/law of chastity stuff, what other significant lifestyle changes would I be expected to make? Would I be expected to cut down/off on violent movies and vidya games and such, or is that mostly left to my own conscience?

>Is it advisable to be baptized with an imperfect testimony? As in, intially regarding the founding stories about Joseph Smith and narrative portions of the standard works as more "legendary", but finding truth in the Christian and metaphysical details thereof and in the scriptures, structure and fruits of the Chruch, and just kinda building up from there?

Sorry if it's a lot, but I've had a lot of stuff on my mind lately. But the new missionaries are expecting me to just pray and get on with it, as if you can know how high a wall is by just praying about it.

>>2381

>But marriage is a social construct, not a sex organ.

From what I understand , the mainstream Christian view is that it is an Earthly organization condoned/sanctioned by God. Should you believe that there is no spiritual merit to it, you'd simply be denying an essential part of any Christian or Mormon belief (especially Mormons, who believe Marriage is eternal). That's really all I can say on that.

>The little factory.

To each his own, I suppose. I actually am a fan of that pamphlet and President Packer in general. I wish I had gotten it when I was younger so it would have impacted me more. But, like you, by the time I read it I was too cynical and wordly for it to have any meaningful effect.

Masturbation is controversial. Basically forget anything outside of the theological, its irrelevant. The main issue with it is the emotion of lust, I think, and whether one can or cannot masturbate without feeling lust. You should get the opinions on both sides, but ignore anything without Scriptural backing.

>>If I join can I still occasionally go to my old church with my dad

I don't see why not. So long as you know where your bread is buttered and you don't partake of the Sacrament (though, who would know if you did?). Maybe in the Brigham Young days you'd get chewed out but today the Church isn't really going to turn away a willing convert just for that.

>Can/should I pay tithing on net income?

That's one of the "great debates" of Mormonism, just like "is coke ok to drink or nah". Basically, pray about it, ponder on it and do what feels right. Heck, switch it up and see which one gives you the most blessings and whatnot.

>>Will I be a black sheep…(a.k.a stuff the standard works already teach)?

Yes because that is heresy. And yes I know exactly what you're referring to, that sometimes some of the Books, (especially the BoM) make it sound like Elohim is the creator of everything, but Church established doctrine is that is not the case.

Remember that order is important. The Book of Mormon might be the Cornerstone of this religion, but anything that came after it doctrinal supersedes it (somewhat) because of Continuing Revelation. Essentially, the BoM sounds trinitarian and more "christian" because that's what "we could handle at the time". Yes, God does milk before meat with us too.

So yeah, YOU can believe whatever you want, but you'd get in trouble if you publicly contradict the Prophets.

Will continue in half an hour

>>2388

Thanks for helping me out.

>but Church established doctrine is that is not the case.

That's odd, because the Gospel Principles manual flat-out says that God is the "Almighty Ruler of the universe" and the "Supreme and Absoulte Being" and the "Great Parent of the Universe", which is pretty much exactly what I believe, if by "universe" they mean "omniverse" but don't feel like getting into astrophysical babble. The Bible Dictionary also says that God is the "supreme Governor of the universe". If it's in Gospel Principles/Bible Dictionary, it's okay, right? Or are they just doing it to make Mormonism more presentable to the rest of Christendom?

The missionbros also emphasized to me that the prophets are human and sometimes say their own opinions, so it seems like there is some wiggle room.

I also had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around the whole "God has a body" thing at first, but then I kinda thought about it and it seems like it'd make sense that God would present himself in a way that's comprehensible to us, so I don't mind as much anymore. Despite that, I still regard God as being perfectly unlimited and omnipresent.

Could I also keep studying muh metaphysics/mysticism? Jakob Boehme was a bretty cool guy.

>>is the endowment ceremony literally the same every time

The first time is different because its the only time you do it for yourself, the other times you do it for other people. You wouldn't even have to pay any attention to that until you've been a member for a year.

Proxy baptisms are a different thing that you can do as soon as you get your temple recommend (be a member for like a month at least, but depends on the Bishop). Endowments can be boring if you do them too often, same with Baptisms (though baptisms you can be in and out in like 20 minutes), but its like reading your Scriptures: its not fun like playing Laser-tag with a drifter but its spiritually uplifting (at least for me it was, maybe 2/3 times).

>What are the confirmation lessons like?

I take it you mean the Missionary Lessons after you get Baptized? They are basically the same as the early ones, its like an overview; except they tend to go faster because you already know all that stuff. No, the missionaries won't reveal the "meat" at that point, though it sounds like the missionaries YOU got have very big mouths or have been prompted to discuss "deep doctrine" with you.

>Are temple garments uncomfortable in hot midwestern weather?

I'm from the East (not like ching-chong east, like fuhgeddaboudit East) so we get humid heat, I think you should be fine in any circumstance. They're more breathable than regular underwear, to me, at least (most of the time). No, they are fine. Plus they defect bullets and stuff.

>How would I go about explaining my decision to join this church to my family and church friends

Boils down to determination, basically. Depends on how much you want it and how far you're willing to go to be a member. Just be firm about it, because you're not asking for permission, you're letting them know what's about to go down.

Sorry, I can't really help in that regard. My parents did somersaults when I joined. They are "catholic", but since I was an angry fedorafag before (and Randian, to boot), literally ANY semblance of Christianity was great news to them.

>>A guy who goes to the local meetinghouse told me that it's not uncommon for young converts to go on missions.

That's true. People get really enthusiastic and then they do stuff like that. However, don't feel pressured. Just by being a member later in life (as in, not born into it) you won't be under the same kinda scrutiny that other people would.

Basically, there's gotta be something wrong with you if you're born into the Church but you don't go on a mission, but its just God's plan for you if you join as an adult with no push from anyone and then don't go on a mission.

>Besides word of wisdom/law of chastity stuff, what other significant lifestyle changes would I be expected to make?

The cursing. Fucking hell, that was hard for me. I still curse just not around other members. Movies and stuff is left to your own conscience, but I'd play it by ear. Some members might think less of you if they find out you're exposed to that stuff willingly, but they'd be the 1/10, just the few Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods of the Ward.

>Is it advisable to be baptized with an imperfect testimony?

The Prophets know well and good people don't develop a testimony just by taking to the missionaries three times. Seriously, when I accompanied missionaries I was surprised at how quickly they pop the question, and how ignorant the investigator was (through no fault of her own).

Yes, its not only fine, that's the norm. There's a quote by President Packer, "A testimony is found in the bearing of it".

>as if you can know how high a wall is by just praying about it.

Yeah, I never could get into that aspect of Mormonism. Thankfully most members are more sensible than that. I mean, they'll still say that but mostly when they've run out of legitimate advice.

>Gospel Principles

Ah, good ol' GP. Keeping the Missionaries in the dark and making Mormonism seem more Christian since 1978. Yeah, when they say "universe" they mean "our universe". Remember the audience this is meant for.

>The missionbros also emphasized to me that the prophets are human and sometimes say their own opinions, so it seems like there is some wiggle room.

Somewhat true but somewhat false. Basically, time and place is all that matters. Anything said from the Pulpit is supposed to be inspired. Anything said outside of that is an opinion that should be taken seriously unless serious theological evidence (or otherwise) can be used against it.

So like when President Monson says, from the Pulpit, that God is real and he loves you, that's akin to Doctrine.

But when he says, to some magazine, that Battlestar Galactica is the best fracking show ever, that's just his opinion.

Be VERY aware that this can be abused to deny, distort or flat out lie too, and many members do this constantly. That use to enrage me so much, when I confronted a Mormo-christian with legitimate Mormon sources about what I, as an actual, well versed Mormon believed, an they just waved it away like "Yeah, that ain't cannon".

So, when Orson Hyde said, from the Pulpit, that Jesus Christ was married to three women, this is true; even if many people don't know it or deny it.

And polygamy is STILL a requirement for exaltation (albeit, to be practiced in the next life by a select few), no matter what they say.

>Despite that, I still regard God as being perfectly unlimited and omnipresent.

Just think about it like this. God has a body that looks like yours, except its infinitely better. He can see everything because His eyes are insanely good, He can hear everything as well, but He's not "everywhere" all the time like some Pentecostal might tell you. He's in His Kingdom, but He is aware of all the known universe and constantly acts through the Holy Ghost (who'll also get a body, eventually).

>Could I also keep studying muh metaphysics/mysticism? Jakob Boehme was a bretty cool guy.

Don't see why not. Be careful who you tell and how you frame it. That's just good advice for life in general but its especially valuable when joining this chruch.

>>2390

>No, the missionaries won't reveal the "meat" at that point, though it sounds like the missionaries YOU got have very big mouths or have been prompted to discuss "deep doctrine" with you.

Yeah, because I asked them a bunch of questions about deep doctrine and discussing it was pretty much the main reason I started talking with them. But the thing was is that it was out of genuine curiosity, not to piss them off, so they stuck around and told me what they knew, time permitting.

>Sorry, I can't really help in that regard. My parents did somersaults when I joined. They are "catholic", but since I was an angry fedorafag before (and Randian, to boot), literally ANY semblance of Christianity was great news to them.

My stepmom told me a week ago that she thinks that "any religion is good for you and keeps you on the right path", and citing the diversity of Christian denominations in her family. Which is true enough, so I don't think she'd mind as much.

>Basically, there's gotta be something wrong with you if you're born into the Church but you don't go on a mission, but its just God's plan for you if you join as an adult with no push from anyone and then don't go on a mission.

I actually think it'd be pretty sweet if I went on a mission, doing something which most mainline and non-restorationist churches don't seem to have the guts to do, which is actually getting my ass out into the world and personally sharing the gospel with people, not in a condemning way, but in an invitational way. Only problem would be mockers (very Christian of them), and I definitely need to strengthen my testimony.

Too bad I didn't have an opportunity to see the Book of Mormon musical while it was in town, that'd make it even cooler, kek.

>The cursing. Fucking hell, that was hard for me. I still curse just not around other members.

That'll be hard for me too. I don't really curse at church anyway, but it might be harder when I'm out and about. And how uptight are they about you saying "oh God"?

>Seriously, when I accompanied missionaries I was surprised at how quickly they pop the question, and how ignorant the investigator was (through no fault of her own).

Shit, reminds me of that time the missionbros asked me if I wanted to be baptized at the third meeting, and it was at another church member's place. It kinda felt like getting asked for sex on the third date.

I mean, do they think of the implications? They're basically asking me "are you ready to forsake your current beliefs and the community you grew up with to join our controversial denomination?". It's tough. Though I understand that they want to keep the baptisms coming, they should inform investigators just a little more.

>Yeah, when they say "universe" they mean "our universe". Remember the audience this is meant for.

Well, fug. Come on, God has to be bigger than that. They can take my Nicene Creed and my cross, but they aren't gonna take my Supreme Creator. Nuh-uh, fuck that shit.

>Be VERY aware that this can be abused to deny, distort or flat out lie too, and many members do this constantly. That use to enrage me so much, when I confronted a Mormo-christian with legitimate Mormon sources about what I, as an actual, well versed Mormon believed, an they just waved it away like "Yeah, that ain't canon".

I'm glad the JD is now considered apocryphal, because some of the stuff it says is truly heretical. Sometimes they really tried to drag down God, but the fact is that if there's great, and there's greater, there's always a Greatest. And the course of God is one eternal round, and he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

>Just think about it like this. God has a body that looks like yours, except its infinitely better. He can see everything because His eyes are insanely good, He can hear everything as well, but He's not "everywhere" all the time like some Pentecostal might tell you. He's in His Kingdom, but He is aware of all the known universe and constantly acts through the Holy Ghost (who'll also get a body, eventually).

The way I think of it is that God is the foundation of existence and he's interwoven with the fabric of reality, and thus effectively omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, but he can also manifest in divers ways, one of them being a human, but he has also manifested himself as a dove, a voice, a fire, etc.

I'm gonna have a lot of trouble, aren't I?

>>2392

>so they stuck around and told me what they knew, time permitting.

I'm unironically surprised.

>Only problem would be mockers (very Christian of them),

I've been out with the missionaries when they proselytize in the streets, and you get used to how most people ignore you, few mock you and even fewer listen. Its all part and parcel.

>And how uptight are they about you saying "oh God"?

Do not do this. Not that they'll lynch you if you do, but its frowned upon. Mind you, you'll get plenty of leniency as a new convert, plenty; but best to try and get it right from the beginning.

>they should inform investigators just a little more.

That's the main reason I declined going on a mission, I simply disagree with joining the church while knowing literally nothing of what makes it peculiar. The peculiar bits are incredibly important.

> God has to be bigger than that.

I see this bothers you, but don't let it. There's a reason why there's next to no lore about "other Gods". Its because they are utterly irrelevant to us. God rules this universe, which means we'll never run into a part of the universe with a big old fence that says "Property of Xenu". Doesn't work like that.

Nobody prays to them, nobody even acknowledges them outside of theology classes and such. Its like, why would it matter what is OUTSIDE the Universe?

>I'm glad the JD is now considered apocryphal, because some of the stuff it says is truly heretical.

Gonna have to stop here. The Journal of Discourses is considered "not an official church publication" because of political reasons. Its still part of the LDS cannon and its still akin to Scripture, so if you have an issue with it you'll have to resolve them before you join. If you think Brigham Young was any less of a Prophet of God than Joseph Smith or Thomas S. Monson, this faith might not be for you.

>heretical

Remember that Joseph Smith said all other creeds were an abomination in Christ's sight. This means that the others are the heretics, not Mormons. The greatest heresies, from the LDS perspective, would be the beliefs that Apostate Christianity holds so dear, like the Nicene Creed, Ex Nihilo Creation, the Trinity, etc.

I see we approach this religion very differently. I signed up to be a Mormon, not a Christian, I never wanted to be a Christian. The peculiar things are what drew me in, and it saddened me that they were getting set aside (not forgotten not denied and not refuted, just set aside). This is one of the main things that started to draw a gap between myself and the Church.

>as a dove, a voice, a fire, etc.

The Holy Spirit is what you're thinking of. Its God's acting agent. Anything incorporeal that God does is done through the HS, He has a body and is more like a Father-King than an eldritch incorporeal being. At least, in the LDS perspective.

>I'm gonna have a lot of trouble, aren't I?

No, I don't think so. I mean, you seem to have a lot of "theological baggage" though. What background are you coming from, religiously speaking?

Also, to your earlier point of trying to convince you why you shouldn't join, I don't know if I can do that. You know a lot about the Church and you have your heretical beliefs but you still want to join (or at least are seriously considering it).

From the Three main things that got me to loose my testimony (I'm still a member, I still go, I still put it up and study it, but I've lost my faith), only one might get to you. The three were: Political beliefs, Putting aside essential and beautiful doctrine, and the Great Apostasy.

How do you feel about the Great Apostasy?

Just got back from a Book of Mormon study at the LDS church. Holy shit there were so many hot Mormon chicks there.

There was one that was literally in my face hanging all over me, rubbing my arm and chest and talking about Heavenly Father while giving me the "I wanna fuck you" eyes after the book study was over and everyone was just talking amongst themselves.

What the fuck just happened to me? Is this typical? Every single chick there acted like they were in heat for fucks sake. Is this what happens when women aren't allowed to masturbate and are expected to marry young?

Yeah, pretty sure I'll be heading to church on Sunday after that thoroughly bizarre experience.

>>2393

>I'm unironically surprised.

Does it help to know that I walked up to them in front of a Walmart, introduced myself, and offered to invite them to my place? It probably was a miracle for them.

It was interesting, after they got done with the Priesthood restoration part in the first meeting, they went straight to telling me some stuff about temples, spirit prison, the Holy Spirit possibly getting a body, all that stuff, since I already displayed an understanding about the BoM origin story. Wish I could relive that day.

>It's like, why would it matter what is OUTSIDE the universe?

Because I'm an amateur metaphysician (specializing in "ebin deepness") and our knowledge about the nature of reality is constantly expanding, and it's a question that is directly relevant to God's worthiness to be called "God"? The thing you gotta understand is that life isn't all about us or of us, God is the foundation and preserver of it all, or at least that's how it is for me. The whole exaltation becoming co-heirs with Christ thing is cool and all, but God is ultimately the star in this show. Just knowing that an supreme, all-self-sufficient Absolute Being exists gives me tremendous comfort, because even if it turns out that there's no afterlife, heaven, or exaltation, I know that even my infinitesimal existence won't all be for naught because I know I'm part of something bigger, without beginning and without end. My life may end, the world may end, the universe may end, but God is endless and his course is one eternal round, and even as a mere human, I am part and particle of him. Does that make sense?

If I may add, by necessity, God must be perfectly omnipresent since he is literally the upholder of reality. If God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) ceases to be present somewhere, that section of reality ceases to exist. So when you say that the Holy Spirit is a localized humanoid spirit that's going to get a body, that concerns me because, one, the Holy Spirit is a bird, bitch and two, that'll result in an ZK-class reality failure.

Yeah, it's possible if not probable that the elements are eternal per D&C 93, but they're only eternal because there's an eternal God to uphold them. If the Eternal Father decided to commit suicide one day, all elements, laws, universes, spirits, gods, forces, priesthoods and everything would go right with him.

So I hope that gives you an illustration of how highly I think of God. It's pretty autistic, but it sustains me.

>Gonna have to stop here. The Journal of Discourses is considered "not an official church publication" because of political reasons. Its still part of the LDS cannon and its still akin to Scripture, so if you have an issue with it you'll have to resolve them before you join.

Seriously, what's in there that I won't get from the standard works, current church publications or recent GA talks? Black priesthood/Adam-God/polytheism/polygamy shitter stuff? I know consistency means a lot to you, but I honestly think the changes the Church has made thus far have been for the better.

>Remember that Joseph Smith said all other creeds were an abomination in Christ's sight. This means that the others are the heretics, not Mormons. The greatest heresies, from the LDS perspective, would be the beliefs that Apostate Christianity holds so dear, like the Nicene Creed, Ex Nihilo Creation, the Trinity, etc.

Which has always struck me odd because my initial attraction to the BofM, aside from how much it exalts Christ, was how much it affirms my Nicene Protty beliefs. Wow, it seems like you and I are on the opposite ends of the spectrum here. I like it for the 'Murican Protestant-like aspects and you like it for the… cult aspects or something?

>What background are you coming from, religiously speaking?

Lutheran/Presbyterian (PCUSA), former by heritage/upbringing, latter by local convenience.

Recently, I've mixed and mingled with other denominations too, like the Baptists down the road, and of course, Mormons; I've had an interest in them since I met two on deviant-tard and discovered the Gospel Library app on my Nook a year back. I was utterly fascinated and awed by the sheer amount of content it had, all open for my spergy research, and also the emphasis on Christ, the the neatness and virtue of the people depicted, the novel scriptures and doctrines, and all the religiously-dedicated young people around my age… I already miss the days when it all seemed so fresh and new to me, and I wasn't tainted by all that anti-Mormon bullshit yet.

>How do you feel about the Great Apostasy?

As a concept? I think it has merit in a way. John the Baptist came from a priestly tribe and thus had the authority to baptize Christ, and he gave power to his disciples, et cetera. There's a manifest line of authority, which is good. Not sure if it all ended at the apostles' death or whatever, or if handshakes associated therewith are essential for salvation.

>>2395

>Does it help to know that I walked up to them in front of a Walmart…

Yes, that does help. It seems they thought you were a Golden Contact when you first met, which is why I imagine they've been so open and persistent with you.

>The Nature of God

Like I said, you're free to believe whatever you want in the LDS church, so long as you don't preach heresy. For all we know, the Universe is Eternal and Uncreated, and Elohim is our Father so He's the one that concerns us. You have to understand that, logically, what you say is irreconcilable with LDS theology because there was a time (and this isn't set-aside doctrine, this is preached from the pulpit today) that God was a normal lad like you or I, named Adam, and the He had a Father (a God) and the Universe already existed and the Laws of the Universe were still in place, like they had always been since time immemorial.

Once He was Exalted, He went about gathering the pre-existing raw materials to make our universe, but He built it according to pre-existing Laws. (This is, coincidentally, how many YEC Mormons explain Dinosaurs).

Reality upholds itself, or perhaps an unknown God does that, we don't know. We do know that's not the role of Elohim, the being we Worship and call Heavenly Father, He's the God of Humanity and this Universe, but not of everything in existence ever.

>The Holy Spirit is a bird

That made me kek, nice. But yeah, He'd be the one responsible for anything non-tangible that God does. The Burning in the bosom and all that, for example.

This is why the Family is so dang Important to LDS people. The Family is where the next Gods and Goddesses of future universes are nurtured and created. Also, yes, remember the main goal of this religion is to become a God equal or even greater in power to the one we (huh, you got me in the mood, I guess its "we" again, for a second) worship.

>The Importance of the JD

Well, firstly, they are important because they are supposed to be from God. Also, if you dismiss stuff from the JD or The Seer (or any other Early Church publication), then there's no logical reason to accept the Modern incarnations of those things. General Conference IS exactly what the Journal of Discourses is all about, only prior to the 20th century, and anything on LDS.com or is exactly what The Seer or Morning Star used to be.

President Monson didn't get his Priesthood from Christ, and neither did any of the Apostles. The mantle of Prophecy and Priesthood has been passed down from Jesus (and his Apostles, that first time with Cowdery) to Joseph Smith, unto Brigham Young, unto John Taylor, then Wilford Woodruff, you get the Idea.

If there was even a break there for a second when a Prophet said something that wasn't true, DO NOT join this Church because it is a FARCE. You gotta believe in all of it.

(My Opinion)

Also, most of the changes that make Mormomnism more like Christianity are directly due to the American Occupation. They'll be gone once we establish Zion.

>cult aspects or something?

>calling God's word cultish

Bro, come on. Those were the Golden days of Mormonism. They'll come again, too.

Yes, we're very different, but I already explained the importance of these things above. Consider that I came in from an Atheist background. I had already dismissed all of Christianity, so I came in with zero baggage, which is not the case for you. If you're going to join, you need to accept that the Bible is imperfect and is missing essential Doctrine, and will at times clash with the Scripture that supersedes it spiritually.

Do you live in a Southern state or something? I feel like if you interacted with Jello Belt Mormons this idea of them being nice American Protestants might be changed.

>>2395

>>2396

>Great Apostasy

This one was tricky for me, but I can see it doesn't bother you much.Or maybe its because you don't still grasp all the Implications.

Basically, dismiss anything that claimed to be Christianity since the death of Peter up until 1830. No nicene creed, no trinity, no anything like that Christians hold dear. Heck, even the attitude towards the Bible should tell you something. The BoM is the cornerstone of Mormonism, especially because it establishes Joseph Smith's authority and credibility as a Prophet. Don't fall into the trap of trying to reconcile things backwards, meaning starting with the Bible 100% and giving it priority while trying to fit all or some of Mormonism into it.

No, Mormonism (BoM, D&C, PoGP) is your round hole, and you've got to cut up the Bible until it goes from square to a nice, smooth, round that any mainline Christian would not approve of. Cut out all the heresy that was added by those spiteful whoever they were.

I hope the imagery is helping you understand just what it is that you're getting into. People don't hold up angry signs and burn Temple Garments during General Conference because they are dicks, Mormonism is not Apostate Christianity, nor does it claim to be.

>are the tithes always used for legitimate purposes

As far as anyone can prove, they only go to legitimate things. On this one I'm actually pretty convinced by the "official story". Pretty much every one of the Apostles has given up more profitable careers to be where they are, because they truly do believe it. I've no doubt some of the contractors who build the Temples or some unscrupulous middle man might take a bigger cake slice than he's owed, but I don't hold the Church responsible for that.

>>is there any evidence

No.

>Smith was a Mason, wasn't he?

Oh yeah. So was Hyrum, so was Joseph Smith Senior, so was Brigham Young and basically everyone involved in the Quorum pre-Exodus.

>>2397

>2015

>Gentiles

>in MY Mormon Tabernacle

Danites pls help

>>2401

>mfw you sound like me just before I joined.

Good luck to you, my friend. Maybe things will turn out better for you than they did for me.

This is the lure of Mormonism, the fact that they seem like such a great alternative in such a wretched time, more Christian than anyone else.

Just know that you never really leave Mormonism. Once you're in, you're in for life one way or the other. You either stay in the church (either happy or reluctant) or you become an apostate consumed by a dislike of all things Mormon, going on Crusades to either "save souls", like the Tanners or just slander the church like Bitch Broadie to let out the bile in your heart.

God bless you and preserve you.

>>2398

>>2399 (checkt)

>God was a normal lad like you or I, named Adam, and the He had a Father

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

The missionbros said they've never heard of the Adam-God theory, thank Allah

>He's the God of Humanity and this Universe, but not of everything in existence ever.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>Reality upholds itself, or perhaps an unknown God does that, we don't know.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, I declare him unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is the Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands.

>The BoM is the cornerstone of Mormonism

Except the sad thing is that it isn't. Are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one God as plain in the Testimony of the Three Witnesses, 2 Nephi 31:21, Mosiah 15:1-4, Alma 11:44, 3 Nephi 11:27,36, Mormon 7:7, etc.? According to current doctrine, no. Are Father and Son one as per the above and 2 Nephi 26:12, Alma 11:39, 3 Nephi 20:35, 28:10, and Ether 3:14, 4:7, 12, etc.? Only in purpose, not substance, though substance is strongly implied. Is there only one God over the earth/universe as per 1 Nephi 13:41, Alma 11:26-29, 14:5, etc.? No, there are at least three. Is God a spirit per Alma 31:15? No, he has a body. Are God and Jesus Christ, as divine persons, without beginning or ending as quite explicitly stated in Mosiah 3:5, 1 Nephi 10:19, Alma 7:20, Alma 13:9, 3 Nephi 24:6, Moroni 7:22, 8:18, Mormon 9:9, 9:19, plus many parallel statements in the D&C and PoGP? No, they had a beginning/birth.

So how can the Book of Mormon (and other standard works) be both true and not-true like this? Why throw all these beautiful and true doctrines in the toilet? Which one do I believe, the scripture or what some random apostle said in Deseret 150 years ago that can only be found in an obscure book most members don't own and isn't even on the official website?

I could easily become a "Book of Mormon" Mormon or even a "Standard Works" Mormon with a reasonably clear conscience. But a "every insane and utterly contradictory thing the early prophets said is canon" Mormon, yeah, not really. I'd have to be your "Christian Mormon" and sweep those under the rug or "deep doctrine" or "human opinions" and "not-current-canon". There's too much blasphemy and mental gymnastics involved, and just stuff that isn't important to me. But from what you're saying, it'd probably come back and bite me in the ass in the end, hard. Or not, I have no fucking clue.

>If there was even a break there for a second when a Prophet said something that wasn't true, DO NOT join this Church because it is a FARCE. You gotta believe in all of it.

Says who? Realize that I'm coming from a moderate-liberal mainline church, I'm used to change and being in the midst of people with multiple opinions.

>They'll be gone once we establish Zion.

>They'll come again, too.

Sounds like wishful thinking. Yes, the Church will grow, but sandwigger polygamy paganism is mostly long gone, and Christian Mormonism is gaining ground.

unless all the true blue biblefags all leave, which many are, then I guess you'd be right

>Do you live in a Southern state or something?

Northeastern corner of the Sunflower State, with the BBQ.

>No, Mormonism (BoM, D&C, PoGP) is your round hole, and you've got to cut up the Bible until it goes from square to a nice, smooth, round that any mainline Christian would not approve of. Cut out all the heresy that was added by those spiteful whoever they were.

Except, like I said above, most of what the standard works say aside from divine corporeality and such aren't as heretical from a strictly biblical perspective, they just add a couple things. It's what the early prophets said where the true brainfuck comes in.

>>2403

I loved too hard, too fast, bro.

I was also about the degenerate lifestyle, though I'm younger. I realized my life was going nowhere fast and began to experiment with different religions to try and find some solace.

The things that you like about Mormonism are the things that drew me in. When I first joined I was pretty pragmatic: I'm here for the contacts, the opportunities, the value and the women, keep the rest. Fast forward a few months and I became a Fundie. I couldn't get enough about Mormon history, I lived like a Puritan.

I did well, go a girlfriend and whatnot, though I still struggled to get into the mystical aspect of it; praying and receiving answers. I couldn't do that, I always just looked to the Words of the Early Prophets for guidance; this put strain on our relationship.

I also grew disgruntled with Modern Prophets because I have doubts about the steps they are taking. I tried to have faith, but it just seemed to me like they were doing all they could to "white-wash" Mormon history and "Christianize" the faith to drawn in more converts, but loosing essential and precious doctrine from God.

I struggled, and eventually I lost my testimony. I became "too Mormon" for the Modern LDS Church. Mountain Meadows was right, Polygamy was right, Blood atonement was right and so was the Priesthood Ban; and I hate it that the Church doesn't speak plainly on these things and is ok with its toadies at Fairmormon or other "unofficial" sites slandering these revelations from God. If it wasn't for my damnable bits of black blood I would have joined one of the FLDS groups; and probably left them shortly after too., realistically.

For now, I stay in the church because I have no reason to leave, and the perks are still a great comfort. Days like this make me wish I could believe again, it was so much easier then.

My advice: Go in with a clear head, try not to fall for it, because you're gonna fall hard otherwise.

>>2404

>Adam-God Doctrine

Adam God doctrine is a little different than what I said. What I said is accepted LDS canon, the Adam-God doctrine is "incomplete" and so we don't talk about it anymore. If the missionaries didn't know God was once a man, then things are truly, truly fucked.

>Quote from Hebrews

>Latter-Day Revelation supersedes the Bible

We talked about this.

>So how can the Book of Mormon (and other standard works) be both true and not-true like this?

Holy shit son, you're going through Mormon puberty and you're not even baptized. You're definitely not the first person to notice these inconsistencies and you certainly won't be the last. The problem is that you're supposed to believe ALL OF IT.

Jeremy Runnels captured the sentiment perfectly. THIS is the main issue with LDS theology, and don't think that the parts YOU like are immune.

"Yesterday's doctrine is today's false doctrine and yesterday's prophet is today's

heretic." -Jeremy Runnels.

>But a "every insane and utterly contradictory thing the early prophets said is canon" Mormon, yeah, not really.

The Problem is you can't do that without directly denying the things in the BoM and the other Standard works. The gift of Revelation is the foundation of the LDS church, continuing revelation is its main thing, and the Scriptures do say that a Prophet will NEVER lead you astray.

You're starting to understand, I hope, why you can't just pick and choose your Revelation from the Lord like you're in the supermarket. All of it is equal in importance, all of it is sacred, and they conflict sometimes.

>There's too much blasphemy

Blasphemy according to whom? Catholics? Protestants?

Say it with me: Abominations. All of it. Here's Joseph Smith History 1:19 (Part of the Standard Works)

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

>Says who?

Says God. The claim this church makes is that the Prophet speaks directly to and for God and the Apostles are inspired. The church isn't supposed to make decisions based on what the members think, what the gentiles think or what have you, but on what God says.

This is why its such a big issue if a Prophet of God said something that is not true, and for that matter, if you reject something said by a prophet of God. Understand that these are not opinions. When Brigham Young stepped to the pulpit and said, infamously, "Shall I tell you about God's Law in regards to the African Race?", That was God wearing him like a glove and speaking out of Him like a sock puppet.

Ask the missionaries if this ain't true, if Thomas S. Monson doesn't receive direct revelation from Heavenly Father Himself.

This isn't like any Christian church you've ever been exposed to, ever.

>Establishing Zion

Unless Joseph Smith made a false prophecy, no, it has to happen or this religion is false.

We don't believe in the Rapture or the spontaneous millennium.. The members of the LDS chruch have to build Zion before Christ will even consider coming down to earth. We also have to build a Temple in Israel.

>It's what the early prophets said where the true brainfuck comes in.

I think I've made myself clear on this issue by now. Latter-Day Revelation (including Words of the Apostles) > The Bible every time.

Also, If I seem blunt, its not just because I'm passionate about the subject but because I'm telling you the truth. At the end of the day, the Missionaries want to baptize you, one way or the other.

My Goal is to help you make the most informed decision possible, whether that's getting dunked next sunday or joining Rube Israel outside SLC next GC.

>>2406

A link on Zion and why its happening.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-15?lang=eng

>The Birth of Christ.

Heavenly Father had carnal intercourse with Mary to Produce Christ. Mormon metaphysics prohibits it occurring any other way. This is what happens when you reject trinitarianism and believe in a God with a body.

Prophets from Brigham Young to Ezra Taft Benson have acknowledged or flat out stated this, and many Apostles (and Prophets) have written about it such as Joseph F. Smith and Bruce R. McConkie.

You don't have to go digging them up, because you can simply use reason.

These are things you must accept to be Mormon.

1. The Trinity is False

2. God has a flesh and bone body

3. Incorporeal acts of the Godhead are the product of the Holy Spirit

4.Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God

If Elohim did not insert His penis into Mary and deliver the proper gametes, the Jesus is not the Son of God. If Mary was impregnated by a mystical, incorporeal entity, then Jesus is the Son of the Holy Ghost.

Mormons do not believe that Christ is the Son of the HS, He's the Son of God. You understand why this is a must in LDS belief.

>inb4 a lot of Mormons don't know

What else is new? If they were confronted with the Simple 4 steps I just gave you, they'd either say "Oh, ok that makes sense" or they'd have a crisis of testimony. In my experience, the former is more likely for people who were born members because they have no theological baggage.

You know what? There's a good way to speed this along; not that I'm not having the time of my life mind you because my life is so utterly consumed by this religion; but I'm here to help you.

If you can read this short 30 or so page critique of Our Peculiar Faith, and you still want to be Mormon, then I'd even dunk you myself should you ask.

Here we go.

http://cesletter.com/

Don't you dare show this to the missionaries, or bring it up with them. I mean it, this shit is NOT for them. You and I are well and good to talk about this, but I won't go around destroying the Testimonies of perfectly happy individuals.

God knows I wish I still had mine.

>>2405

>I still struggled to get into the mystical aspect of it; praying and receiving answers

Lucky for me, that part's easy. I've got a Christian upbringing so I've been doing that since childhood. The missionaries seem to think my personal revelations are somewhat insane though. I don't care, it seems legit to me.

I told them that 2 Nephi 13:12 And my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who lead thee cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths.

Led me to realize that the book of Mormon was true and that I should join the church because the feminist / lgbtqrstuv movements (lead by women and teenagers) that were hijacking our culture would destroy America. I'm sure I'll find some more tie ins with other modern stuff to have revelations on when I actually finish the damn book.

>My advice: Go in with a clear head, try not to fall for it, because you're gonna fall hard otherwise.

The way I see it, either Joseph Smith was a true prophet OR he was just a Freemason who was simply trying to warn his people about the future. If I can buy into the idea that the literal cuckold Hosea was a prophet and take his shit seriously then I can get on board with Joseph Smith I think.

>>2409

Godspeed, you crazy diamond. I love the thought of somebody with your determination joining the Church. We could use it.

The LDS church isn't immune to Organized Kikery, mind you. We had a shit-fest not that long ago when some uppity broad started agitating, trying to claim Women ought to have the priesthood because muh feelings.

Thankfully the Prophets excommunicated her ass (indirectly, since its technically a local Bishopric procedure because the Apostles are the undisputed masters of saving face and displacing responsibility), but she's still got some of the broads in my ward and elsewhere on her side (though they keep quiet, if they know what's good for them).

Pray for me. I'm so scared of being a pussy. What if this is God's test to me? To have to see all this shit, and then it will be alright in the end and God will ask me "Why did you back down, why did you loose faith, why didn't you trust your Leaders and fight Satan like I asked you to?"

This thread is giving me Max Feels.

>>2411

>>2405

> Mountain Meadows was right, Polygamy was right, Blood atonement was right and so was the Priesthood Ban

Just to add to the whole "I know that feel", I am southern and so I know what it's like to feel like you are living in occupied territory. A man without a country.

I think it's wrong what the Americans did to destroy Deseret and to the CSA. Maybe there can be a stronger bond between the two groups of Southern and Mormon nationalists in the future.

I would like to see a future where we can live according to our own principles and not be a part of this forced together, cursed empire. I feel like as a southern (soon to be) Mormon I can try to bring the groups together somewhat in my own way.

>>2401

Think about any kids you want to have, and how they would handle an upbringing in the Mormon church. Girls are dragged into rooms and asked if they masturbate, and are expected to give every detail to feel shamed. It is emotional abuse. Do you want to raise brainwashed kids?

If you later try to leave the cult your kids, your wife, and friends are highly likely to cut you off and refuse to deal with you. Much better to start relationships with people who will respect your beliefs. Don't date crazy girls.

>>2412

Thank you for that.

Yes, that would be interesting, though if you can broker an alliance or at least understanding between Southerners and Mormons, I'd give you my firstborn because those groups often do not get along.

This is usually how them interactions go:

>Mormon gal: Come on, I'm a Christian just like you! Can't you see how Christian we are! Its not our fault your Christianity is incomplete but we're all just Christians together am I right guise haha

>The sound of Brigham Young and I slitting our wrists over this blatantly unhealthy theological fetishism muffled in the distance

>Souther gal: Kiss my rebel cheeks you Satanic Judeo-Masonic Morman!

>>2407

>If the missionaries didn't know God was once a man, then things are truly, truly fucked.

Or, for me, absolutely fine. But to answer your question, I never got a conclusive answer from them and I think they kinda swept it under the rug of deep doctrine. I might ask the sisters at the local ward later about it, maybe they'll say something.

>The problem is that you're supposed to believe ALL OF IT.

Except I'm not, apparently. Remember what ol' Spence said? “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine." So he pretty much flat-out said that what Briggy said is complete bullshit, am I wrong?

From what I've observed, current prophets/apostles don't talk much about metaphysics anymore, just down-to-earth moral things like "take care of ur famuri n pray to hevaenly father n read ur buk of momo :)". Moving sometimes, but not insanely deep by any means.

Another thing I read on LDS.org on the "I Have a Question" segment, this guy pretty much says "the Journal of Discourses has been miswritten in several ways, and isn't even that important because we have this living prophet, and his [lovey-dovey] word exceeds importance and priority of previous prophets, so don't worry about what the JD says because we don't really need it". https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/08/i-have-a-question?lang=eng I was linked to that from here. https://www.lds.org/topics/journal-of-discourses?lang=eng It was all "speculative in nature". Whoo! I don't have to believe in infinite Gods as Orson Pratt says there his talk "The Holy Spirit and the Godhead" (the first part of the talk is awesome, but to say that Elohim isn't supreme? Come on). /kinda fucking around with you

>You're starting to understand, I hope, why you can't just pick and choose your Revelation from the Lord like you're in the supermarket.

Except when that's literally what the Church does sometimes.

>This is why its such a big issue if a Prophet of God said something that is not true, and for that matter, if you reject something said by a prophet of God. Understand that these are not opinions. When Brigham Young stepped to the pulpit and said, infamously, "Shall I tell you about God's Law in regards to the African Race?", That was God wearing him like a glove and speaking out of Him like a sock puppet.

Except that one changed in 1978. Was God wearing them like gloves too? Doth God have any shadow of changing? Yea, he doth.

I'm getting an aura of cognitive dissonance from you. Like, you want everything that was taught in the early Mormon Church to be just as true, important and prominent now as it was then, though that's not exactly the case.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate greatly that you're redpilling me and trying to take me as deep down the rabbit hole you can with this church. I just doubt it would be pertinent to me as a normal member.

Think of it this way: though I'm a practicing Presbyterian right now, John Calvin and John Knox hold very little significance in my faith life, despite those men having essential historical significance to Presbyterianism. In fact, I've never read any works by either, and such works aren't even distributed on a regular basis in this church. It's like literally none of us gives a fuck except "yeah they founded this movement that's cool I guess".

Jeez, in fact, I'm actually just starting to realize how much we don't give a fuck. I mean, I literally had to rummage through the church basement to just find a copy of the Book of Confessions, which is a pretty damn important book to me now, and apparently was to this church at some point.

>Ask the missionaries if this ain't true, if Thomas S. Monson doesn't receive direct revelation from Heavenly Father Himself.

I wouldn't doubt that he's a seer and revelator, but when's the last time he said something along the lines of "last night, God told me…"? He just says his normal sermons like the rest of the GAs and re-emphasizes already-established doctrines and makes you feel good and like a child of Heavenly Father and stuff.

>>2418

>I just doubt it would be pertinent to me as a normal member.

*all pertinent. You're telling me a lot of pretty pertinent stuff; my bad.

>>2408

>I think I've made myself clear on this issue by now. Latter-Day Revelation (including Words of the Apostles) > The Bible every time.

Not the impression that the Church is giving me at all. For one, this freakin' based guy, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/the-miracle-of-the-holy-bible?lang=eng#watch=video and two, Elder P told me that he's read through the entire Bible, and that's he's well into doing it a second time, and I haven't been all the way through it once. So though it might not be significant to you, it apparently is to others. Remember, I'm (considering) joining the church for what it is now. Just like I'm in my Presbyterian church for what it is now, and not for whatever the hell Calvinists four-hundred years ago were doing (some pretty fucked up things, I imagine).

>Mormon metaphysics prohibits it occurring any other way.

Except the Book of Mormon clearly states that the Son was conceived by the power of windbird.

You gave me a lecture earlier about how the Spirit can do magical shit, which I agree, and this is God doing magical shit through the Spirit.

But then, not that anyone will or does give a damn, or that sex is bad or anything.

>thisiswhatmormonsbelievelolxd

>Mormons do not believe that Christ is the Son of the HS, He's the Son of God. You understand why this is a must in LDS belief.

Father is God, Holy Spirit is God, Son is God. Three distinct persons, one perfectly united Godhead. :^)

>If you can read this short 30 or so page critique of Our Peculiar Faith, and you still want to be Mormon, then I'd even dunk you myself should you ask.

Challenge accepted. I'm already into the first thirty or so pages, and it's really not much that I haven't heard before. And no, I won't tell the missionbros, I'm not a dick.

>>2418

Adam-God Theory

Adam-God Theory is not the story of How Elohim was a mortal man and then ascended, that part is still canon and openly acknowledged by the Church today. The Adam-God Doctrine is that Adam (as in THE Adam was actually God in Human form). Brigham Young never developed it enough, so we don't fully understand it, hence why its been shelved until further notice.

>Brigham Young was wrong

Listen to me very carefully, because you just stepped on a very very rickety bridge.

One of the Key parts of Mormonism is that the Prophets can NEVER lead the Church astray. Not that they shouldn't or promise they wont, that since they are in communion with God, He'd strike them dead before that would happen. So if a Prophet preached something as Doctrine and God didn't kill him, its Doctrine.

Here's the quote by President Woodruff, this is at the time of the Plural Marriage Revelation.

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. "

This is the more difficult one to understand: Spencer W. Kimball lied. He lied because sometimes its ok to lie to the gentiles, if it serves the interests of the church. He lied because it was important for the church to appear more Christian, he lied because they had to put a good wall between themselves and the FLDS people (who proudly and openly follow the Adam-God doctrine, albeit colored by their own "prophets"); and most importantly, he lied because it was the 70's. The time before the internet, the time before the so-called Mormon moment, a time where the Church had a virtual monpoly on any and all LDS information available, and gentiles simply didn't care that much about it.

He lied because he knew he could get away with it and it was for the good of the church. This is no fault.

If Brigham Young led the church astray, that means every Prophet after him was illegitimate and anything said by Spencer W Kimball is null and void anyhow.

>so don't worry about what the JD says because we don't really need it".

This people are one 30 minute conversation away from leaving the church. I'm appealing to your intellect here, you must understand that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Anyone who would dismiss the JD of discourses so easily is not an educated Mormon, and you obviously know more about their own faith than they do. If you wish to drink of their ignorance and use it to erasure yourself, I can't stop you.

>Except when that's literally what the Church does sometimes.

I would hug you if I could. Now you're really starting to understand. Do these men seem like Prophets, Seers and Revelators to you? Because that's what they claim to be. If they seem more like their making it up as they go along, you've a serious challenge here.

>Priesthood Ban

>Except that one changed in 1978.

That's not an issue. Policy is subject to change, Doctrine isn't. The lifting of the Priesthood Ban is theologically sound and I've no quarrel with that. However, saying lthat the Priesthood Ban was not from God (like some Mormons do) is 100% heresy because it means that Brigham Young lied.

This is my point.

>I'm getting an aura of cognitive dissonance from you.

Don't confuse my reverence and respect for the faith with nostalgia.

The simple truth is that if one denies the Early Prophets, one has no base for the Modern ones. Measuring them in worth based on how much what they say sounds like Heretical Christianity is also just… Abominations.

Don't look at these guys like they are Calvin or Knox, they never claimed to speak to and for God, but this is most definitely the claim the Prophets make.

And this is why so many people leave. Coming from an apostate Christian background, your mind is fine and accustomed to important religious figures being wrong or taking guesses. But this stuff completely shatters the Testimony of a born-and-raised LDS person for the same reason it infuriates me: They aren't like these men, they are Prophets of the Lord and that's not just a title, its a fucking Superpower the way its claimed in the Scriptures.

Let me backtrack one second.

>infinite Gods

How could you believe in Exaltation, which is 100% necessary (take this to the missionaries) if you don't acknowledge that there are many Gods? It would make Exaltation impossible if Elohim is truly the Alpha and Omega, and if that's the case then someone ought to the the Temple worker's know they are wasting their time.

>Not the impression that the Church is giving me at all.

We've been through the whole LDS wanting to appear christian thing. I will defer to our non-LDS anons to explain why even non-controversial, not deep, basic fundamental doctrines of Mormonism contradict the Bible.

>Three distinct persons, one perfectly united Godhead

Jesus isn't the Son of the HS, or the Son of the Godhead, He's the Son of Elohim after the manner of the flesh. Anything else makes him simply NOT the Son of God. The Holy Spirit was there to assist Mary as no normal person could withstand the presence of God in His full Glory.

Good luck on your reading. Hopefully it will help you make the most informed decision possible.

In 3 years when the Prophets throw The Family: APTTW in the trash and reveal that Gay Marriage is now a-ok (despite all the theology that contradicts it) I would like to have you here for you opinion on the matter.

>>2425

I don't think the interviews with kids where they ask innocent kids if they masturbate are a myth. Here are some even better written links than I just shared.

http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mormon-Bishop-Interview-with-Single-Adult-Female

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_interviews.html

>>2422

>mfw reading this

>Recent examples acknowledging Exaltation

Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness acknowledges that men can, have and will become Gods.

"Life was to be in three segments or estates: pre-mortal, mortal, and immortal. The third stage would

incorporate exaltation-eternal life with godhood-for those who would fully magnify their mortal lives."

The Prophets don't rehash things constantly, the Joseph Smith and Brigham Young manuals are used frequently in Sunday School.

Just ask the missionaries AND your Bishop:

>Was God once a human being like us?

>Did he live on a planet like we do with an imperfect body of flesh and blood?

>Did he achieve exaltation, become a God and proceeded to create "Worlds without number"?

>Can we also achieve exaltation and become gods and goddesses?

None of these things are secrets or "non-official beliefs", they are basic, founding LDS beliefs that everyone knows.

>Shelved

I use the word shelved to preserve my sanity, because otherwise the Gospel and the Prophets contradict themselves. Doctrine can't be false and it can't be denied because its from God. Practice can, but Doctrine cannot. If either Brigham Young or any other Prophet uttered a false Prophecy, CLAIMING IT TO BE FROM THE LORD, and it was not true, then the line of Prophecy was broken, the Church has been led astray, and I've finally become Ogden Kraut.

>What if Smith wasn't martyred, but indirectly struck dead by God because he was starting to preach false doctrines?

Then, following your own beliefs, you shouldn't join the LDS church. Join some other offshoot. Because if Brigham Young was a false prophet and so was everyone who's words are preserved in the JD, then it makes absolutely no sense that around 1978 the broken remnants of this con-man galore started actually speaking to God; if Joseph Smith was a false prophet then the modern prophets are just old corporate goons milking retards like you and me for all we are worth.

>prophets say that prophets can never lead the church astray? Seems legit

This is because you're still going in with the mindset that Prophets are always fallible men, and like I explained earlier they are up until the point where they stand by the pulpit and say "THIS IS FROM GOD". At that point, its God speaking, not them.

Ask the missionaries:

>Who leads the Church?

>Is it the Prophets or is it God?

>Who do we receive revelation from? Is it the Prophets or is it God?

>Can a Prophet ever lead the Church astray?

>How can you tell when a revelation is legitimate or if it is a "false doctrine"?

>how are you so sure Kimball was lying through his teeth?

Because if Kimball was "lying for the Lord", at least then the Church can still be true. If Brigham Young introduced False Doctrine when he was the Prophet King of Utah under no one's thumb but God's, it means he was making shit up and the church is not true. If Kimball lied, its because we are under American Occupation and he's an old man struggling to keep the church together, using whatever means the Lord considers necessary, such as lying.

Anything else means the church is false.

>Even then, just don't get the line of thinking that in order for an organization to be true or valuable

Then this is something you'll simply not understand for a while, but in the LDS church, yes, the Prophet is supposed to be perfect when he's claiming to speak for God.

"Upon the rock of revelation this Church was founded and by revelation it has been guided."-George Albert Smith, Prophet of the LDS Church.

Did you finish reading the CES Letter?

>>2422

>"Woah, woah, woah, you'd brainwash yourself just to be part of a social group?".

Literally the same thing my friend said to me before I joined, because I was dealing with all this stuff too, but I just wanted to join so badly.

They are so wholesome, so caring, so beautiful. You go there and you feel loved.

Just don't drink the kool-aid. Perhaps its better that you are a Cafeteria Mormon, picking and choosing, because at least that way you can preserve your sanity and not put all your eggs in the Prophecy Basket.

Never stop researching though. It hurts like hell but I love nothing more than learning more about the church. It'll make the Words at general conference ring hollow though, cause everything they say has an asterisk next to it.

*Expires in 10 years or so

>/Is/ there something wrong with me?

Yes, but I can't tell you what it is because I have it too and I can't see it for myself.

>Anyone who proclaims Jesus Christ and the love of God is a prophet, seer, and revelator to me. The downside is that they're still people.

You're killing me right now. This is uber heretical my friend. Don't say this when bearing your testimony, only Thomas S. Monson holds all the keys and the gift of prophecy.

Did the missionaries explain keys yet?

>but there can only be one Absolute.

If there is one then we don't know about it, because Elohim/ is definitely not the Absolute.

> Please tell me he's not bullshitting us, because if so, I'll be sad.

He's telling the truth, but you're not hearing what he's saying but what you want to hear. He's saying exaltation is real, so we can indeed become Gods and goddesses (angels and celestial beings are in the 2 lower levels of the celestial kingdom, the upper most level is for GODS).

He's being extremely clear man.

>Mormonism=Christian

Galatians 1:6

>Not sure if you're just pulling my leg, but yeah, that'd suck. The world can do what it wants, but within the Church (or any church), pls no.

I'm not even kidding, its going to happen. You're going to have to get hurt like me for this shit to finally sink in.

THEN, when faggots corrupt the Temples of God with their sodomy and their syphilitic filth, when they are allowed to enter those magnificent white halls of unparalleled glory and desecrate them with their unrepentant sin, when they bring Satan in to rape the soul of this church; oh boy, then you and I will be there crying like little bitches.

>But muh Eternal Marriage

>But muh Doctrines of Salvation

>But muh Miracle of Forgiveness

>But muh Why Marriage and Family Matter—Everywhere in the World by L. Tom Perry

>But muh Countess other General Conference talks

>But muh Scriptures

But muh "The Family: A Proclamation to the World"

And all they can tell you in response is "Well, you know Prophet's ain't perfect, Scripture ain't perfect, General Conference isn't an official Church publication, "The Family:APTTW" isn't canon.

My friend, when that day comes, and it WILL come (and some in the church might even celebrate it), then you can join me in the Sad Sack Syndicate.

I'm so mad you don't even know.

>>2424

>Is this actually true?

Bishops used to have more free-reign to ask questions in explicit detail, but that has changed somewhat. They still have these interviews with pubescent kids though, and its freaking great that they do. This is because masturbation is such a serious issue that its best to nip it in the bud when its still early.

Wish somebody had set me straight with that stuff when I was young. Woulda saved me a lot of trouble.

>exmormon.org

>mormoncurtain.com

Both of these are usually full of bullshit. Being a mormon isn't always easy, some people can't make the cut. When that happens they turn to making up shit or exaggerating.

>From my understanding, the largest single group of converts to Mormonism is from southern baptists.

>mfw Mormons taking the south

In America at least; cause most members aren't american, they are Hispanic and Pacific Islander and live in their won countries; but I'm glad to hear that things are going well down there.

>The single biggest obstacle is convincing them to stop drinking sweet tea.

HA! I can imagine that must be difficult. God knows I thought I'd fall apart without my coffee, but I'm sort of alive still.

>It seems like the Mormons have a "secret" southern strategy in the works.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this.

>>2427

>That pic

;_; Oh no, why? ;_;

>>2429

>It'll make the Words at general conference ring hollow though, cause everything they say has an asterisk next to it.

>My friend, when that day comes, and it WILL come (and some in the church might even celebrate it), then you can join me in the Sad Sack Syndicate.

Alright, another thing I should ask: when it totally hits the fan, how to I get off the ride?

Is is as simple as giving the headquarters a call and telling them to take my name off the list?

Of course there'd be plenty of social implications, but then it wouldn't be like I haven't experienced them before.

>Don't say this when bearing your testimony, only Thomas S. Monson holds all the keys and the gift of prophecy.

Don't worry, I'd give him a solid sustainment as a prophet.

>because Elohim is definitely not the Absolute.

I think you could at least make an argument that the Godhead's a big part of it or directly connected to it. They made the universe, after all.

>He's telling the truth, but you're not hearing what he's saying but what you want to hear. He's saying exaltation is real, so we can indeed become Gods and goddesses (angels and celestial beings are in the 2 lower levels of the celestial kingdom, the upper most level is for GODS).

Alright, gods it is, then. But I'm taking it that he's saying that we (and our spiritual posterity) will always be subservient to the Godhead.

>Galatians 1:6

Refers to Gnosticism. Well, yet then…

>>2450

>Is is as simple as giving the headquarters a call and telling them to take my name off the list?

No. You have to jump through a few hoops, wait sometime, deal with plenty of "are you sure you wish to leave?"Type of things. That said, the biggest part of leaving the church is being cut off from family and friends. You're lucky that your family isn't LDS, but expect things to change between you and any new contacts you make if you should leave.

>They made the universe, after all.

Only this one, though.

>will always be subservient to the Godhead.

99% of people will most definitely be subservient to God all their existence. The ones who are Exalted will become Gods equal (or comparable at least) in power to God and create their own universes, with their own Gospels and Saviors and all that.

He means that, just because there are other Gods doesn't mean that OUR God isn't incredibly mind-blowing. Creating this universe is no small feet, an He does so much for us… its a way to speak out against apostate Christianity that usually attacks Mormon definitions of God as being limiting or sacrilegious. Just because there are other father's doesn't mean your own isn't unique and special.

>>2450

>Gnosticism

That's how deep the Rabbit hole goes. There is evidence that Smith was into Gnostic and Kabbalistic texts, and he was tutored by a Prussian Jew who instructed him in such matters, Alexander Neibaur.

>>2436

I find this blithe willingness by LDS members here to dismiss allegations of rape frightening, especially because some of those women said fellow Mormons did not believe them. I wouldn't want to have kids that were raped and couldn't get help because their own Mormon parents were too indoctrinated to believe them.

Perhaps you are the type that would make up stories upon leaving a church about being molested out of simple spite, but you are probably in the minority. Have you even left a church and made up lies to post on the internet yourself? I doubt all those people are as willing to lie as you are. I don't see what is in it for them. Any stories about rape are probably shared online as a form of therapy for the emotionally scarred daughters.

Your story about LDS members leaving because they couldn't take it is blaming the victim. It's like that exmormon testimony of the woman in one of the links in this thread. She was molested at 7 years old in her church, and she read in her teachings that women had to resist completely or else it wasn't rape. She was raped multiple times through the years, and she told her bishops. and They refused to talk to her, help her, or believe her, which led to her leaving the LDS church. Here it is again:

http://www.exmormon.org/whylft61.htm

In fact there are a lot of testimonies like that, which isn't surprising given the exmormon site is huge. What is frightening is the consistency of church officials giving the blind eye to the allegations of abuse against their breatheren. There could be something about life in the Mormon church that triggers pedophiles.

Unless you have kids it won't bother you, but once you have kids with a Mormon you have to face the possibility your loved ones will be abused. If you naively turn a blind eye to the warnings, it will be your fault, and your sin just as much as the shady perpetrator you trusted completely with your daughter.

http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/drameana

>>2452

You need not concern yourself with this if you've no intention of joining the church.

Physical proof would be enough for me personally to believe them. Up until them, I've dealt enough with apostates, heretics and attention seeking women (oh, my friend, you wouldn't know what some LDS girls do for attention) to know that they are to be dismissed until they can prove their claims; especially when one picks them up at a notoriously extravagant website like exmormon.com.

>>2451

>You have to jump through a few hoops, wait some time, deal with plenty of "are you sure you wish to leave?" type of things.

Which is why I'm considering my baptism really damn carefully. I don't wanna get sucked in and decide two seconds later that I want out.

Can you go through the "signing out" process in detail?

>Only this one, though.

Well, consider the fact that before the idea of parallel universes became mainstream, the prevailing view in the public, correct me if I'm wrong, was usually that the universe 1) encompasses everything that exists and 2) could be infinite in all directions. Many people still hold this view, and could be what people have in mind when they say Heavenly Father is the Supreme Governor of the universe. Or not.

Anyway, I dug up a conversation that I had with this Mormon in late 2013 when I inquired as to whether God was once a man, pics related. He's an aspiring physicist and has done some missionary work. I like how he thinks deep about God like I do.

He didn't just talk about God's origins, though; he also talked about principles God operates by.

I'd say it's true that God works by certain principles, yet not by obligation, but because he wills to do so. I remember the missionaries saying that God operates by certain principles too. Forgot what they said when I asked them whether those principles control him the other way around; I think the latter, but not sure. I now regret not secretly recording our conversions for my own private use since my memory is shit. I considered doing so, but I didn't want to be rude.

>it's a way to speak out against apostate Christianity that usually attacks Mormon definitions of God as being limiting or sacrilegious.

Well, it is limiting, unless by "universe" the GAs mean literally everything and by "supreme" they mean supreme. The universe may be mind-blowingly huge, but it's nothing compared to absolute infinity.

>he was tutored by a Prussian Jew who instructed him in such matters, Alexander Neibaur.

>trusting the Jews

Welp, there's one big mistake he made. But yeah, I think you told me that before, cool factoid. I need to read through the translated Gnostic texts I have really quick, see if I can see some parallels.

Mormons = Protestant/Gnostic mix?

>Did the missionaries explain keys yet?

Yeah, think they did when they told me about the Church's structure.

>>2454

>Can you go through the "signing out" process in detail?

>mfw no one ever really leaves Mormonism

That I cannot do, I never bothered to research it deeply. I swore the night before my Baptism; upon praying to God for an hour and hearing nothing; that I'd take this seriously, and that I'd never leave the church no matter what.

So I've lost my Testimony, and I'm still in.

Now, from what I understand, you send in a letter to your bishop explaining your reasons and the like, and he in turn writes you about who you have to write to in the official LDS SLC headquarters. Might me a Stake President in between.

For you, it will just be paperwork. All the bitching and moaning people do about it stems more from the social ostracism, family conflicts, loss of identity and possible job loss (if you live in the Jello belt) that comes with branding yourself a Son of Perdition.

I'm sure you can find a more detailed explanation online.

>Or not.

This is where that Kabbalistic/ Gnostic "multiple universes" stuff comes into play. Joseph Smith was blowing people's minds with this stuff that they'd never even considered.

> I remember the missionaries saying that God operates by certain principles too.

This might seem funny considering how Mormonism is viewed today, but at the time it was a very "scientifically progressive" religion. The whole thing operates on Newtonian physics, all the rave back then, and they believed (or theorized, because, you know, its a science) that matter can never be destroyed or created, but only re-arranged.

And so, the Idea of God; not as a mystical, mysterious wizard who can do anything at all whenever He desires (like the "uneducated hicks" believe); but as a an extremely wise Intelligent Being who simply understood the laws of the universe (which exist independently from Himself) way better than any mortal man is precisely what they were going for. God isn't an all powerful wizard, says Smith, he's The Architect of the world, using knowledge and modern Science to build planets from material that already existed, and constructed the bodies of spirits who also already existed (Yeah). Very Masonic.

>Well, it is limiting, unless by "universe" the GAs mean literally everything and by "supreme" they mean supreme

The GA's choose their words very carefully. If it looks like they mean to project one imagine for the unsuspecting crowds while still technically staying loyal to the Scriptures of the recent past, that's because its exactly what they are doing.

>Trusting Jews

I face palmed quite hard when I found this out.

>More on Gnosticism

http://gnosis.org/ahp.htm

http://gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm

I don't buy all of it, frankly, but its an interesting thing to consider.

What did you think of the CES Letter?

>>2455 (czecht)

>More on Gnosticism

You know, just reading through the introduction of The Other Bible, I'm beginning to wonder why Mormons haven't jumped on these newly-discovered Gnostic and early Christian texts like an Ethiopian child on a bagel. I mean, Smith found golden plates in a hole on a hill, hidden for a millennium after a period of apostasy, containing doctrine supporting Protestant Christianity; why wouldn't they be psyched about something new being found in a jar in a field somewhere in the wilderness across the sea, stuff rejected by the developing Great and Abominable Church, hidden for hundreds of years and written by people who claimed it was the handwriting of ancient prophets, especially if it involves messianic and Christian prophesies, and intertestamental confirmation of practices such as the laying on of hands? Probably because they're too busy trying to cover their tracks with stuff they already have, and they don't want to introduce new problems… real bummer.

Something that really attracted me to the church early on was the "open canon". I didn't (and still don't) think that the Bible, although authoritative, is perfect or complete, so the idea of the extra scriptures, lay ministry, ongoing and personal revelation almost gave me the initial impression that the Church was therefore some sort of open forum for inspired theological discussion and ideas with only the fundamental tenets, structure, policies being incontestable. Yeah, not quite.

>The GA's choose their words very carefully. If it looks like they mean to project one image for the unsuspecting crowds while still technically staying loyal to the Scriptures of the recent past, that's because its exactly what they are doing.

Fug. :DDDDD

>What did you think of the CES Letter?

It's really not much at all that I haven't heard before.

>BoM based on View of the Hebrews and such, repeated biblical "errata", anachronisms, etc.

>geography parallels happened

>BoM is obviously and explicitly trinitarian

>vision accounts differ

>church admits the Book of Abraham isn't a "direct translation"

>Joe Smitty had wives with an s

>muh Blood Atonement ;_;

>muh priesthood ban ;_;

>etc.

So yeah, not much you won't find on any typical anti-Mormon site. I feel terribly sorry for those people who live all their lives being taught this by the only to find stuff like this and get their testimony shattered.

But fortunately, I'm a metaphysician, not a historian.

>>2464

>Probably because they're too busy trying to cover their tracks with stuff they already have, and they don't want to introduce new problems… real bummer.

Pretty much, plus it has to come from God/The Prophet, and saying that God would choose any device outside of the church to communicate anything would be a serious heresy

>Yeah, not quite.

Smith's word and his chosen few have always had priority over everything else. Personal revelation was tolerated and ok up until the early 1850's, when people got too carried away and started having "revelation" that conflicted with Church Doctrine. Ever since personal revelation has been ok as long as it doesn't contradict church doctrine and only affects you (or inf you are a father, everyone in your family).

>Fug. :DDDDD

That's putting it mildly.

>But fortunately, I'm a metaphysician, not a historian.

I take it you mean you just don't care about these things? That's ok, though I had a tougher time dealing with them because I am in the history field.

>>muh Blood Atonement ;_;

>muh priesthood ban ;_;

Made me kek. Must be something wrong with me because I was disappointed when I found out about blood atonement (that its not to be done anymore), instead of appalled that it ever happened.

Are you going through with the Baptism?

>>2465

>I take it you mean you just don't care about these things?

I guess I could care more, but it definitely doesn't help. The red pill is a hard one to swallow.

>Are you going through with the baptism?

I have yet to be convinced it'd be worth it. Joining a church with a questionable history and doctrine is one thing, joining a church with a questionable history and doctrine plus having plenty theological baggage plus most of Christendom and everyone else (including people you know) wanting to make your life absolutely miserable over it is another. Having to make a huge lifestyle change and pay a tenth of my income even if it means I can't pay water or electricity in the light of all that and more, I don't know if I could handle it.

I could just swing by the local ward every now and then and be "that Presbyterian", but I feel the more I hang out with them, the more they're gonna pressure me to be baptized. The last meeting with the missionaries, we didn't talk about any real theology, they just told me to pray and I just got an aura of "okay, you gonna get baptized or not".

It might be time to move on.

Went to my first LDS church service on Sunday. Confirmed for one true church (according to several members of the congregation's testimonies anyway).

I feel like I stepped back in time to a place where Christianity still existed and people actually had faith and really believed in miracles again. It was like being in Disney world and the magic was real.

Never seen so many white families in my life (some of them had 8 kids!). It gives me hope for the future.

>>2497

> It gives me hope for the future.

I see you caught a fervent case of jello fever.

>Christ wanted his religion and his church open to all.

Its a pearls before swine thing, combined with a neo-Israelite mentality, and the obvious Free mason connection.

Although, nowadays its "sacred knowledge" rather than hidden, since the Church isn't retarded and they know that people talk all about what goes on in the Temples.

Interested in something.

In your opinion, how much would the Mormon church have to change before it can be considered Christian?

How much of their own specific traditions and beliefs would be left after that?

>>2523

They'd have to convert to Catholicism/Orthodoxy/Coptic/Syriac/et cetera, essentially. That's a fair answer.

>Like nothing.

Surely the Jello with the pineapple inside and the modest dress standards can stay?

>>2500

I'm curious about your picture

Does it depict Prophet Moroni, Captain Moroni or Angel Moroni (Heavenly form of Prophet Moroni) as he came to Joseph Smith?

Curious, it's usually signed that it depicts angel, but why he have no wings then? Or do Mormons imagine angels differently than others?

I've heard that they believe that the 4 and other angels, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel were humans before and some OT characters, one was even Noah. That's similar to doctrine of some Protestants and Jehovahs that Jesus is Michael.

Both can be derived from a rabbinic legend that Metatron was Prophet Enoch and Sandalphon was Prophet Elijah before becoming angels

>>2535

Yeah, me too

Especially when you see things like this… http://www.come-and-hear.com/yebamoth/yebamoth_63.html

The info on Metatron/Sandalphon being humans I treat as a trivia, as it simply not correspondents to my world view, BUT it's an interesting explanation of why Enoch and Elijah were taken into Heaven, when it was closed for humans (before coming of Christ to Earth, that's the doctrine I've heard), simply by being turned into angels.

But it fails chronology, as Metatron I believe took position of supreme angel after Lucifer's fall, he couldn't be human at all back then as Enoch have not existed.

You're right, sources are scarce, outside of Orthodox cannon of Bible (the cores) and apocrypha. Talmud, Rabbinic or para-Christian mythos/legends can be an interesting addition to that.

I mainly concentrate on Jewish, Christian, and to a degree Islamic angelology, but topic exists also in Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and Gnosticism (the latter I try to avoid, due to mindfuck it generates).

>>2535

>>2544

>sick

I think likewise.

Man, I thought we Catholics exaggerate with St. Michael (and St. Mary, in Slavic and Latino countries) cult, check he even have his own "Catholic" version in Wikipedia (so in essence, you have two articles about Michael the angel, despite the thing that less known angels like Zeruel articles are getting deleted), when he is not even the most important angel (3rd in charge, I believe) and Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel are put too much in his shadow, BUT to even compare Michael to Jesus?

Srsly…

And it all based solely on interpretation of scriptures.

>>2534

>mfw Asexual Polish Sailor Moon anon sees this side of me.

B-baka!

>Moroni

Yes, its Moroni as a heavenly messenger (an angel, a spirit with no body). Yes Mormons don't believe Angels have wings; don't think Christians legitimately do either, its just artistic license. Plus, the angels in the bible sound sort of scary and hard to draw.

>I've heard that they believe that the 4 and other angels, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel were humans before and some OT characters

Yes this is true, though I have only ever come across mentions of 2 famous men being Angels. Adam was Michael and Noah was Gabriel. Your theory might be correct, though I've never found anything to suggest that, though Joseph Smith may have been into Kabbalah stuff . It may simply be a natural effect of believing every existing entity is uncreated and eternal.

>>2535

Having these as the criteria, are protestants christians?

>>2469

Wow, already back.

>went to a youth event one night, met qt investigator girl and she asks for my number right off the bat

Recently called and said she likes me and would be interested in being my girlfriend.

>mfw

Childish and forward as fuck (though she's a year and a half older than me), but this is practically getting handed to me on a golden plate pun not intended, it'd be a crime if I didn't give it a shot.

But yeah, I made the judgement "I'll be heading on vacation soon, so I guess I can do a couple more things before I go". Wie dumm von mir.

>met Sisters in the park on Wednesday, exhorted me to pray like usual and emphasized the principal "five points" because all the other important theological stuff doesn't matter and shit. Good gals, though.

>crawled back to institute on Thursday like the scum I am

>still glued to scriptures and Church literature like the scum I am

>church-related shit showing up in my dreams now

How much longer am I gonna keep digging like this until I can't get out?

>>2572

Wow, you got it bad, I can tell. I think its already got you, to be honest, but yeah this would be the moment to back out if you intend that. After this, you're in forever, don't matter what you do.

I would, still, offer a word of caution on the girl. Watch and wait and judge, see? You don't know if she's truly going to end up converting, and dating gentiles is just, kinda counter-productive.

>How much longer am I gonna keep digging like this until I can't get out?

Until you either stop caring about theology or you can somehow make yourself have no feelings towards the church one way or the other. They'll get their ten percent, one way or the other, though I imagine it feels overwhelming to you right now.

This is oddly bittersweet for me, though I wish you the best.

The cathocucks got me for Mormonposting again.

>>2573

I feel more and more like I'm simply delaying the inevitable.

Do you got any good reading or watching, Church-approved or not, that would make me develop a respect or for Joseph Smith, whether as a person, leader, or reformer? That's at least somewhat grounded in fact?

The more you consider all that he's accomplished, the less he seems like a common confidence man. The third and most remarkable possibility aside, he may have simply taken it upon himself to fix what he perceived to be a broken system.

Yet, either way, it's practically ancient history at this point. If it isn't now, it will be soon enough.

>>2577

Been also Mormonposting occasionally for the lulz. It's hilarious how triggered they get over it.

>>2612

>mfw reading this

Maybe I ought to mind my own as well but I don't think he meant to upset you.

Just met with the missionaries. I asked them about all the tribe of Ephraim stuff and I think I made the whole room have a panic attack for a second.

The way they described it, they are essentially pro-segregation within individual churches. For example, one church for blacks, one for whites, etc. They agreed that white people are the ones who "have a leading role" and should also be the missionaries.

I couldn't get a straight answer on the question of whether whites (Ephraim) should be the ones who are always the prophets and apostles, etc.

Anyone know?

Luckily there was an old guy there (brother somebody) who was pretty WPWW. That old fucker made it sound like white people run everything but leave everyone alone to run their own churches. (he also complimented my prayer) I like to do extremely overly dramatic prayers because they are always bugging me to pray, lulz

“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species…” - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218

>>2658

>joke religion

It's the fastest growing religion in America.

>The BoM is objectively wrong and filled of falsehoods

You sound like a fedora talking about the book of genesis, the prophesies, gospels, revelation etc.

>Mormonism is not Christianity.

It's better than Christianity and in fact it's eclipsing Christianity to become the religion of America.

>You worship the creation instead of the creator

We worship our Heavenly Father.

>Catholicism

>The truth

Pardon me while I laugh my ass off.

>>2661

>Anyone know?

This is pretty much an open secret in Mormonism. The Tribe of Ephraim is just chosen by God to lead everything like that.

However, its the tribe of Joseph that's supposed to be the greatest at communicating the Gospel. That is Hispanics, like me, which is in theory why the Restored Gospel has spread like wildfire in Latin America.

> For example, one church for blacks, one for whites, etc.

This, I don't believe is standard practice. The church I go to is mostly white but there are a few minorities. That said, the church respects local custom and pragmatism, so if people prefer to be separate but equal in Dixie, then that's what the Church will do. Again, don't believe this will be the case wherever you go.

Chances are you just won't meet Black Mormons often though, since American Blacks have a silly aversion to it. If you ever leave your beloved Land of Cotton and venture to the Latin Americas or to Africa, you will of course see Black Mormons.

>should be the ones who are always the prophets and apostles, etc.

This one is tricky. Chances are all of the Apostles will always be white. As far as the Prophet, that's even more specific. If a man doesn't have deep Pioneer roots, meaning that his family wasn't there in the 1800's in Utah, and at least SOME blood-relation to one of the Early Apostles, I'd be shocked, shocked I tell you if that man ever became a Prophet, Seer and Revelator.

It has to do with a lot of the Early Apostles and important figures of LDS history being bood-relatives of Jesus Christ, but this is supper obscure so don't go blabbin about it

Since you appreciate race-realist quotes, I'll give you one. It has actually rather troubled me as to how to reconcile it with other revelation by contemporaries as well as modern day revelation, but Brigham said it so it is at least somewhat true.

>“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

>- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110

Also just let discipulus be pls, he's just concerned about your salvation.

>>2664

>That is Hispanics, like me, which is in theory why the Restored Gospel has spread like wildfire in Latin America.

Didn't you say you were part white? There's a mulatto chick at the church here but she looks mostly white. Does that make her Ephraim?

>if people prefer to be separate but equal in Dixie, then that's what the Church will do

That's basically the case.

>“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

The missionary I talked to said that they were against race mixing but didn't mention the death part.

>Also just let discipulus be pls, he's just concerned about your salvation.

Yeah I know.

>>2665

>Didn't you say you were part white?

Like many hispanics I'm a mutt. White (Spaniard), Lamanite (Indian) and some Cainanite (Black). Regarding the girl, she might be. These things don't necessairily have to do with physical race all the time. After all, adopted children will count as the Tribe of their adoptive family; also Pacific Islanders and Filipinos would be different tribes despite the great racial similarities.

>The missionary I talked to said that they were against race mixing but didn't mention the death part.

He didn't mention this because the Church doesn't practice it, and there aren't records that it ever actually happened. Essentially, the main reason for not miscegenation, the priesthood ban, is history now, so miscegenation is not a sin or is theologically unsound or anything like that. Brigham Young preached in a very violent way, but it never manifested physically. He did his part to make sure slaves were well treated and that they would die free in Utah territory, though he heeded God's commandment and confine the black race to itself, and enforced the priesthood ban. This was right, but the day is past.

Heck, one type of miscegenation is actually blessed and encouraged, and that is the mixing between the White Race and the Indian Race (Feathers, not dots), as per Brigham Young.

Many leaders of the church recommended that people marry inside their own race up until the 80's, a few still do today. Its one of those personal belief things: its not a commandment and its not a sin, so whether you choose to miscegenation or not is up to you and either choice is valid.

If the missionary told you he personally was against race mixing that's fine. If he said the church is against race mixing (today!) then he's misinformed.

>>2667

>Or is this not the case?

Eh, its complicated. The races are different, and it has to do with how you as an individual behaved in the pre-mortal life. That said, its more about division of labor than anything else. The main thing was the priesthood ban, and that's gone.

Blacks in America are just… I don't know, I've never been a fan frankly.

>on't you think that they stood neutral between God and Satan in the fall?

That was one of Bruce R. McConkie's theories, and it was pretty popular pre 1978. This could still be the truth, but the reality of the situation is that when Brigham Young received the priesthood ban revelation, he didn't explain the details to anyone, he never wrote down anything. So we don't know why, we just know we had to do it until we didn't have to anymore.

>Ladies and Gentlemen we have now officially left reality and entered neverland.

>Implying neverland isn't so much better than the stupid grown up world.

>So black skin is the mark of Cain?

Again, this is one theory. It would be more accurate to say that dark skin is a sign that at some point in time God was pretty mad at one of your ancestors. Doesn't necessarily translate into any dark skinned person being a bastard.

The mark of cain stuff is all in the bible, and its an interpretation that was popular in all of christendom but like in early modern history (1400's-1700's). It was used to justify slavery and the treatment of blacks as lesser and stuff.

However, that stuff is vague in the Bible, so the interpretation fell out of favor because, well, science essentially proved that the racial gap is there but its not *that* big of a divide: Its human vs. slightly better human, not disgusting monkey beast vs inspired Industrial god-man.

I'll say that the fact that God curses people with dark skin verbatim in the BoM and the BoA makes it so that the Curse of Cain in the bible seems like a pretty obvious thing, basically.

>So why are the pioneers related to Jesus and the apostles? I thought you believe Jesus went to the Americas after he was crucified.

This comes from a belief that has sort of fallen out of favor. A lot of Mormons believe that Jesus Christ was married, maybe 75% of that number will use the Feast at Cana as proof (though this is an interpretation unique and exclusive to LDS belief for various reasons).

What most people don't know is that this comes from a sermon by Orson Hyde in the Journal of Discourses, where he talks about this and says that Christ was married to Mary (not his mother), the Mary Magdalene and Martha. With them, He had a decent amount of children and after His death they continued to live.

Their descendants spread all about Europe like Joos do, they mix with the goyim, time goes by and some of those descendants move to America etc etc next thing you know Joseph Smith and a select group of people re-create the Church of Christ in the American continent and they believe they happen to be blood-descendants from Jesus.

Hope it helps.

Posing a question: What are the similarities between Islam and Mormonism?

I recently read a thing by Parley P. Pratt where he praises the society of the "Mahometans" over "Idolatrous Christiendom" and the like. I'd heard superficial comparisons of the two before, but to heard it from a GA (and as a positive) was bizarre.

What are some similarities between the two, both superficial and intricate?

>>2769

No. That's a common sentiment among people who make a living supporting whatever will get them the most money.

Romney was notorious for flip-flopping on issues back in 2012, and Glen Beck has always been a wishy washy mormon who says whatever his protestant base wants to hear at the time.

I personally don't hold this view, but most Mormons believe the U.S. constitution to be inspired by God; meaning that the right to freedom of speech and such is sacred and should not be infringed upon.

I do have a Confederate flag myself, however, despite not being the least bit southern. It was a lovely gift from a friend.

>>2770

Ugh this whole thing is just an emotional roller coaster and i haven't even decided to join yet. Is it REALLY so much to ask that a church that had probably the most white supremacist foundation / scripture of any church in the world would actually care about white people?

I mean, what the fuck? They pussied out and took down their own Mormon nationalist flags now they want to take down mine!? I feel sick to my stomach about this because I was literally just about to be baptized. (plus I actually voted for that faggot Romney)

I seriously feel betrayed, I know they aren't exactly representatives of the Church but it still really hurts.

>>2773

>Is it REALLY so much to ask that a church that had probably the most white supremacist foundation / scripture of any church in the world would actually care about white people?

Oh man, you got me right in the heart. I'd love you joining the Church Confedebro, but I can see there are things that are very important to you that I don't know if the church can ever truly fulfill.

You might be better off doing more research on Christian Identity, or British Israelism. Those two are unabashedly and frankly pro-white, and not just that but anti-anything else, honestly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Christian_Identity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

I'll say now that I don't believe these creeds to be true, but that's for you to judge and decide, not myself.Best of luck on this search, I'll answer any other concerns or questions you got on LDS stuff, and God bless you and guide you.

These are the AWB, probably my favorite currently existing Christian White Nationalist movement, from Sauf Afrreekah. Pic somewhat related

>>2775

>Romney

Remember that Romney is a politician first and a Mormon second. He's not a philosopher, a role model or a hero. He's a man who thinks he's doing the right thing and I'm sure Jesus loves him; but he's first and foremost a corporate bitch and a Zionist puppet.

Look up to men in the Church, people who actually matter. Especially the Early Prophets and Thomas S. Monson today. Politically, read Cleon Skousen and forget these modern lds politicians.

>I will not shut the fuck up about Ephraim and I will dig up every pro white quote from every prophet,

This is where you want to be careful. There's no easy way to say this, but its likely that the missionaries and the members have been…extra sweet to you due to your investigator status and interest. This means that everything you do, everything you say and feel, people find interesting and will be supportive.

After you get baptized though, I just think it might be a shame if people made you feel marginalized if you come off as having joined the church simply and exclusively because of its history of lets say alternative racial views (which they are, and this is from God.)

Relax with that, and try to enjoy every and all aspects of the Gospel. I can promise you that white's are not being thrown under the bus in the LDS church, because whites run the LDS church and (most likely) always will.

The White Race is definetly chosen by the Lord, to rebuild His Church, to lead the flock and most importantly to spread its message. There's nothing wrong with loving your culture and your people, that's commendable, and if other Mormons seem to have an interest in foreigners, that's because they understand that to NOT preach the gospel to the other races would be to deny the unique and precious role that God has given them. The Church is meant to encompass the entirety of the world, the most important culture is Mormon culture, and God deemed that it was the White Race who are the ones strong and smart enough to make this happen.

Any "anti-confederate" sentiment is not official LDS doctrine and is purely the opinion of foolish men.

You should speak to the Bishop about your concerns. The missionaries main goal is to get you converted period. The Bishop's main concern is your spiritual well-being.

That said, Church history is my favorite thing, and I'd be more than happy to help you find titles, quotes and theological tomes concerning the Tribe of Ephraim and any other wonderful subjects relating to LDS canon.

>>2776

>This is where you want to be careful.

Hmm maybe I'll just wait until someone else brings it up then and offer my calm, subtle support. My main concern was that I may very well be tithing to a Church that wants to destroy me (RCC) but thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I definitely don't want people to think I'm just joining solely for the sake of racial politics. Although I'd be lying if that wasn't the exact thing that pushed me from the RCC to LDS in the first place. That and the additional scripture intrigued me a lot (maybe I am a bit Baptist or something).

Quite frankly, I sort of see the LDS church as the future of western religion (or maybe I'm just fantasizing here). It is fresh, new, "American", still very mysterious (mostly in a good way), full of devoted young people, and the theology is surprisingly sound. It makes regular Christianity (baptist especially) just look boring, ineffectual and archaic by comparison. I could see this overtaking America as the dominant religion in the future.

If there was no tithing I would say the whole thing seemed a little too good to be true.

>That said, Church history is my favorite thing, and I'd be more than happy to help you find titles, quotes and theological tomes concerning the Tribe of Ephraim and any other wonderful subjects relating to LDS canon.

That would be incredible if you have the time.

Just one more question: Are they really gonna start riding my ass once I join to do Mormon stuff all the time, never sin, etc.? I just want to know how drastically their attitudes are gonna shift from their usual cheerful, forgiving selves. I can be sort of an abrasive redneck so I don't want to accidentally say or do something too unforgivably stupid.

>>2777

>mfw those holy, precious Trips.

I started humming "Praise to the man".

>My main concern was that I may very well be tithing to a Church that wants to destroy me (RCC) but thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case here.

As per evidence of this entire thread, I have plenty of grievances with the church, plenty; but trying to destroy the White Race is definitely not one of them.

>I definitely don't want people to think I'm just joining solely for the sake of racial politics.

I can see its more than that, thankfully.

>and the theology is surprisingly sound.

I agree. Just because it differs significantly from Christianity doesn't make it unsound or anything like that. Heck, I like it because of that precisely.

> I could see this overtaking America as the dominant religion in the future.

I'll pray for your optimism. I doubt I'll see that happen in my lifetime but its going to happen at some point in the existence of the universe.

>If there was no tithing I would say the whole thing seemed a little too good to be true.

Tithing is a very personal thing, never feel like you are obligated to pay tithing or that people judge you if you don't do it. The Lord knows your situation and your heart and its between you and Him, no one else will know, unless you tell them.

>That would be incredible if you have the time.

I do, and I enjoy this. I'll see what I can dig up. I'll give you this one to get you started, its the entirety of the Journal of Discourses. It contains every recorded sermon by every Prophet and Apostle of the 1800's; its a treasure trove of inspiration for me.

http://journalofdiscourses.com/

>Are they really gonna start riding my ass once I join to do Mormon stuff all the time, never sin, etc.?

No.

Every Bishop has his style, but doctrine and practice make it so that your salvation and habits are very much your business, assuming you don't bring it to church or encourage others to sin. The Bishop my ask you how you are feeling in the beginning, he might not, but its all very general. There is no expectation that you'll never sin, that's physically impossible, and being new you'll get plenty of leeway if you do or say something inappropriate or incorrect.

But, believe me, after a while you'll be the one going to the Bishop to ask him for help on how to avoid or manage sin.

> I just want to know how drastically their attitudes are gonna shift from their usual cheerful, forgiving selves.

Not by much, they just won't hover and jump constantly all around you because they'll be used to (and happy) to have you around.

>I don't want to accidentally say or do something too unforgivably stupid.

In the average single's ward, for every one like you there are two who stay at home and are jack mormons, inactive or straight up hell bound Sons of Perdition. There is no such thing as an unpardonable sin (other than killing innocents* or denying the Holy Ghost), and the ward is happy to have you there.

*definition of innocent may vary.

>>2801

Thanks discipulus

Its because I have plenty of time ;_;

t. TOM

Honoring my promise to Confedebro. Here's an address to missionaries in Norway in 1962 called "For What Purpose" by Alvin A. Dyer (future First Councilor to David O. McKay), dealing with some of the issues we discussed earlier. Its very inspiring, to me at least.

One highlight

> If you young men and women know why you are here and why the Lord is so anxious for us to preach the Gospel today, and then would ask yourselves a number of questions connected with that, such as: Why is it that you are born today instead of 2,000 years ago? Why is it that you are sitting in this room today and were for some reason, not born in the day of Moses or in the day when Christ was upon the earth? Or do you think that is just something haphazard – that it just happened that way – that nobody had anything to do with it? You would ask another question maybe: Why is it that you are white and not colored? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Who had anything to do with your being born into the Church? Why not born a Chinese or a Hindu or a Negro? Is God such an unjust person that he would make you white and free and make a Negro cursed under the cursing of Cain, that he could not hold the Priesthood of God? Who do you think decided and what is the reason behind it? Then maybe you would ask yourselves another question: Why is it that you were kept in the Spirit World until the last dispensation to come forth among the children of men? Was there any reason for that, and who decided it?

Here's all of it. I hope it will strengthen you and bring you some peace of mind.

https://archive.org/stream/ForWhatPurpose/For-What-Purpose_djvu.txt

>>2866

Thanks, that's pretty interesting stuff. I was reading a little of the Journal of Discourses earlier too.

I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I never think any evil, nor do anything to the harm of my fellow man. When I am called by the trump of the archangel and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen. - Joseph Smith

Really hit me in the feels knowing he was murdered shortly after.

Just got back from BoM study and got to talk for about an hour and a half with some members and missionaries afterwards. Talked about the Mormon concept of the Godhead. Found out about heavenly mother and the scripture in the book of Revelation (although Catholics would call it the assumption of Mary, Queen of Heaven).

I still don't quite understand if it is proper to worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit or if we should only worship Heavenly Father. One missionary described it as praying to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus is also the worship of Jesus.

What's your take on Jesus / Holy Spirit worship? From what they seemed to indicate, Father is above the other two who are sort of subservient but also united in purpose. Shouldn't we only be worshiping heavenly Father and not Jesus if that's the case?

>>2874

>Really hit me in the feels knowing he was murdered shortly after.

Oh man, I feel you. Reading his later stuff always gets to me as well, and LDS artists are amazing at capturing the raw emotion of moments like the Martyrdom.

>Found out about heavenly mother and the scripture in the book of Revelation

What Scripture would that be? Heavenly Mother doesn't really get talked about a lot, mostly because there's no scriptural stuff to back it up, no revelations; its more of a logical assumption. We can't become Gods unless we are married, so it also follows that God Himself is married, and produces life.

Thing is; this is my belief, you don't have to accept it, and many people may simply not know or disagree and they could legitimately be correct; I believe she doesn't get talked about be cause there isn't one "she", its multiple Mother Goddesses all plural wives of Our Father; Our Mothers. The Early Apostles made it clear plural marriage is a requirement for exaltation, and I don't believe that is exclusive to our world. Some LDS people believe God's preferred form of marriage is monogamous; I agree only insofar as that it what He prefers for the common people, not those who would be exalted. And, again, that He himself has many wives

>One missionary described it as praying to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus is also the worship of Jesus.

This is basically it, frankly. Christ worships His Father, who we are to worship also. Its what Christ wants us to do.

>Shouldn't we only be worshiping heavenly Father and not Jesus if that's the case?

Yes that's absolutely right. And that's what we do when we pray to God in the name of Christ. Jesus is like our older brother, the Leader of the Church, the King of the world and our intermediate between God and ourselves. There's nothing wrong with praising Him, loving Him and everything like that, its all wonderful; but "worship" is a very specific thing.

I suffer from this venial sin, sometimes, when I just love and admire the Prophets (especially Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) that I feel really compelled to just pray to them or at least ask them to intercede in my behalf. Of course, if they saw me to this, they'd beat me up (For real, Church propaganda makes Smith out to be too Christ-like when he was a man just like us and he would mess people up if they got him angry).

So, I mean, as long as you aren't praying TO Jesus but rather in His Holy name, you're good. The Holy Spirit is like the Hands of God in the world so we also shouldn't worship Him but Praise and love are great. With how blessings work, when the missionaries say that these beings are united in purpose, they mean it. Basically, when you receive a blessing in your life, it could easily be from the HS, JC or GTF. You'll never know, but you're supposed to thank God in the name of Jesus and He'll communicate through the Holy Spirit. Its a whole system.

>>2877

>What Scripture would that be?

The missionary mentioned revelation so i just assumed it was this:

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Revelation 12: 1-2

>I believe she doesn't get talked about be cause there isn't one "she", its multiple Mother Goddesses all plural wives of Our Father; Our Mothers.

That would make a lot more sense.

>Of course, if they saw me to this, they'd beat me up

The Mormons today would physically kick your ass or Joseph Smith would have?

>For real, Church propaganda makes Smith out to be too Christ-like when he was a man just like us and he would mess people up if they got him angry

LOL, that makes me like him more to be honest.

We read from Alma 24 where the Nephites martyred themselves in battle against the anti-nephi-lehies. The whole point was that their voluntary martyrdom saved more souls in the end but I was just sitting there thinking "They should have just won the fucking battle. Convert them after they are dead." Still not sure how that works though so maybe that wouldn't have been possible.

>So, I mean, as long as you aren't praying TO Jesus but rather in His Holy name, you're good.

That's what they told me too after I directly asked them that question. There's one missionary in particular I've been talking to because he usually gives it to me pretty straight. Although he's also the one that said they were against race mixing so I'm not sure if he's accidentally inserting his own opinions or what sometimes (he was the one that said Heavenly Mother(s) was mentioned in Revelation).

He also made a racist joke after the BoM study about fat black women and fried chicken and everyone laughed. Pretty crazy.

>>2896

>Revelation 12: 1-2

You know, I've simply never come across that verse when I read people's work on Heavenly Mother, and I've read extensively. Still, maybe that's a valid interpretation, though I already told you what my belief is on that subject.

>The Mormons today would physically kick your ass or Joseph Smith would have?

Joseph Smith would have. I mean, to sya he'd beat me up is an exaggeration, but he'd definitely slap me or yell at me or do something somewhat harsh and violent to make sure I understood that its wrong to pray to anyone other than God.

>LOL, that makes me like him more to be honest.

Me too Confedebro, me too. I'm still hoping the church will make a film on him depicting plural marriage, his violent fights with Emma Smith over the same, Emma beating up his other wives, him getting into fights with people who offended him, stuff like that. We'll see.

>Convert them after they are dead."

Well Temple Ordinances, as far as I know, were never given to the Nephites. So they wouldn't have been able to do Baptisms for the Dead and the like.

>Although he's also the one that said they were against race mixing

Yeah, that is most definitely his personal opinion, especially if he's from some small town in the southwest with fundie leanings. I can assure you the church's official stance on race mixing is neutral. I could start linking to the official LDS website and all the articles they've put out as of late to convince the world we're not racists and the like, but that might just be depressing; it certainly is for me.

Not that I'm FOR racism, you understand, I just simply don't believe in apologizing for the Lord.

>he was the one that said Heavenly Mother(s) was mentioned in Revelation

As of this moment, I am leaning on that being an incorrect reading of it, though he could be right (I don't think so). I'll do more research, but more likely than not this is just mormon-bible-retcon syndrome gone too far.

>

He also made a racist joke after the BoM study about fat black women and fried chicken and everyone laughed

Well, I mean, you all are in the South, right? Its natural that the LDS people there will have the cultural influence of the area, and that the missionaries will try and adapt. Like Pic related, Missionaries in Polynesia are allowed to wear skirts instead of pants because the locals don't consider it to be gay or whatever.

I'm glad you're getting along just fine, friend.

>Joseph Smith looked into a hat with gold plates he found in upstate New York and read the "new commandments" off to some guy

You guys really believe that Jesus came over to America too?

>indians have the dark skin tone because they were sinners

M O R M O N S

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>>2931

Eh, you made a few mistakes in your assessment but yeah.

The thread might already have answer some of your questions already, unless you got any specific questions for me.

Let's take a minute to appreciate how far we've fallen, and that there was a time when Brigham Young could have ordered a hit via pseudo-Danites on practicing sodomites and no one would have batted an eye.

Ad now this.

This is a dark day. I feel a growing unease in the horizon, not just for the Church but for all religions in America.

> The LDS Church "will continue to teach and promote marriage between a man and a woman," according to an official statement issued Friday morning after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled same-sex marriage legal throughout the nation.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865631490/What-the-LDS-Church-said-about-the-Supreme-Court-ruling-on-gay-marriage.html

God preserve us all.