/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

With that said, I'm sure you're wondering why the OP picture isn't as abstract or theological as usual. In fact it's involving a battle of some kind! Well, let me begin by saying that I have no intention of starting this thread without going over anything specific from the previous threads.

I instead will assume that all of you have by now a firm understanding of the usual video content and subjects which are brought up in these threads. In doing so I plan on changing things up a bit with a bigger focus on history by means of a history buff friend you lot may have heard of before, which leads us back to the OP image: the crusade.

Before we begin I'll post here the presentation by Dr. Bill Warner. Next I'll post the theological segment of Dr. James White's "Islam A-Z" and then we'll begin with fresh information.

Here is Dr. James White's presentation on Islam's theology.

Throughout the thread I plan on utilizing excerpts from his book What Christians Need to Know About the Qur'an which I have no doubt will have surprising information for everyone involved.

As usual, though the style is shifting a bit, please feel free to contribute, ask questions and bring up related subjects either historical, contemporary (like news/current events), personal or especially theological. This is not a blog and I am not some tween. This is an open forum, as always obviously, since it's 8Chan.

And now we finally reach the video series I would like to hone in on to begin with: Real Crusades History. Don't worry; each video is very short and concise.

We begin with a few rebuttal videos to the willful fools of Extra Credits.

DEBUNKED: Europe : The First Crusade - I: The People's Crusade - Extra History (Part 1)

>>218618

DEBUNKED: Europe : The First Crusade - I: The People's Crusade - Extra History (Part 2)

>>218619

DEBUNKED: Europe : The First Crusade - I: The People's Crusade - Extra History (Part 3)

>>218620

DEBUNKED: Europe : The First Crusade - I: The People's Crusade - Extra History (Part 4)

>>218621

DEBUNKED: Europe : The First Crusade - I: The People's Crusade - Extra History (Part 5)

Please take your time watching all of the videos linked and posted here. This thread will be here for some time so there's no rush. Tell me what you think.

Also, here's the first of a long-running series by RCH regarding the actual in-depth specifics of the First Crusade.

Quick addendum to >>218614

Embedded here is the video but without the music which got it struck with copyright.

>>218624

The First Crusade - Episode 2: The Pope's Plan, 1095

I feel like this thread is specially relevant in the next few days.

By the way, OP, I have limited knowledge, but I know that the earliest known Muhammad biography shows how cruel and terrible he is.

Do you know if there is really any argument about that content or just the typical "i-it is corrupted guys!"? Has it been and accepted my early muslims?

Briefly, a great post from a previous Vs. Christianity thread:

On the contrary, my understanding is that Jewish (and especially Islamic) texts are much more malleable to interpretation. Both of those communities rely completely on their scholar class to interpret the meaning of the "core" document. These later interpretations would be found in legalistic compilations (i.e. there's also a Jerusalem Talmud, not to be confused with the main Babylonian one), and the numerous Hadith. Which of these scholarly texts is accepted and used to interpret the core "infallible" text has changed much over the centuries. For instance, which Hadith are accepted would largely determine which sect of Islam is being taught. And without some selection of those extra academic documents, they have no coherent religion. Christianity, alone, does not require any other single text, aside from the Word to be understandable.

>but I feel from what I've seen of what Christianity is today, a generally pacifist and charitable religion as opposed to what it was a couple of centuries ago.

Christianity has been somewhat of a victim of bad press in curriculum and media treatments. Truth be told, we've always been this way. It's the rare exceptions to the rule of non-violence that are most easily sensationalized, and today the view of Christendom's past is a very political issue with people of great influence on public opinion taking increasingly open hostile positions. One such idea is the notion of a widespread fanatically violent past that was mysteriously dropped not too long ago for some unexplained reason. I hope most people can still see through that false history. Sure, most of the faithful aren't unchanging or in isolation to society; however the changes are now being scripted and distorted by ill-intending (i.e. "liberal") outsiders with an agenda of their own.

>>219063

The First Crusade - Episode 3: The Council of Clermont, 1095

>>219070

Really interesting. Another weapon for the endless arsenal

Whenever a Muslim tells you that the word Trinity (and thus the doctrine of it) isn't in the Bible, ask him where in the Quran is the word Tawhid!

The Hadith explains the Quran like the Church Fathers' writings did with the Bible.

In this 7 min 46 sec video, our former Muslim Nabeel Qureshi giving so quicky and mindblowingly simple replies to that objection, and another on the incarnation, as Muslims always ask: "How can God be(come) a man."

>>219560

Beautiful

Nice find and nicely done, anon!

It's so frustrating arguing with liberals who insist the crusades were Christian's fault and not a response to the Seljuk Turks murdering Christian pilgrims and 300 years of Muslim aggression

http://imgur.com/gallery/aeIGCJv

>>219514

'The First Crusade - Episode 4: The Chroniclers of Pope Urban's Speech'

>>219514

The First Crusade - Episode 5: The Rhineland Massacre of the Jews, 1096

Here we have the massacre of Jews in the First Crusade. Do compare this with what we know of Muhammad's massacre of Jews.

Let us pray for this brave family

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/11/19/former-muslim-in-bradford-is-beaten-up-for-converting-to-christianity/

>>221708

Yes, it's incredibly important to keep such ones in prayer. Thank you for sharing the story, anon.

Taking a brief break from "Jesus in the Qur'an", I want to post a video we all MUST watch.

Have you heard of "BUT THE QUR'AN SAYS THAT TO KILL A LIFE IS TO KILL THE WORLD!!" as an argument against viewing Islam as a religion of violence, or in the very least, one which lends itself easily to violence?

Turns out that the reality of the aya these people are so vaguely referencing and quoting is indeed from the Qur'an, but it's not exactly what they blindly perceive it to be.

'The Quran and the Siege of Paris (David Wood)

>>224286

Very good then, carry on!

It seems I was in error, whoops!

>>224298

No worries, anon. This is a twisted, corrupted world so I understand your suspicion.

Please read the thread and post whenever you feel, mate!

Here we have a rather common reporting regarding Islam on a whole and the "moderate Muslim's affection for jihadist action".

All of the information presented here is true, though the parallel of Christian reformation to the need of an Islamic reformation is inane and clearly shows he doesn't know what the protestant reformation was about. Then again, most Christians today don't know either.

Anyway, please watch this video and listen to what is said, most specifically in the clip shown at 4:40 in the video.

Nabeel Qureshi made a personal video regarding the Paris Attacks and a particular Qu'ranic passage recited earlier in this thread

Remember if your husband is beating you and fucking whores in your home, just stick it out for 10 plus years, maybe it'll get better. Remember you can't get a divorce without sharia approval and the penalty for leaving Islam is to be murdered!

We need to respect there tolerant culture!

>>224932

George Christensen MP (Aust) speech regarding Islamic Terrorism 30-11-2015

Anyone have any other thoughts?

I can post more research and discussion from What Every Christian Needs To Know About the Qu'ran (the source for the excerpt here >>221907 ) if anyone would like to see more.

Gary Habermas: Contemporary Muslim Apologetics and the Resurrection of Christ

>>227447

I haven't heard of Gary Habermas before but it really is quite something to hear this presentation, especially in light of debates such as this one here between David Wood and Shabir Ally

>>227386

Here's Stephen Couglin's Red Pill (yes, he named it after that scene from The Matrix) in Austria.

It covers a lot of topics actually, ranging from Islamic scripture, to the Quranic concept of war, to how Jihad works, to the Muslim Brotherhood, to ISIS, to how is Islam interacting with Western civilization and profiting from the Left, to what they really mean with "interfaith dialogue", and why the War on Terror isn't working as it should…

Now the playlist is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKzkuQyexZc&list=PLRGjclMs6x2Kgctqns2WNEEbxHE5jU2ZZ

I found video #4 to be my favourite so I'm embedding it.

>>227697

*Stephen Coughlin

Islam is the anti-christ. Plain and simple.

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:30-34 KJV

http://bible.com/1/mat.12.30-34.KJV

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:6 KJV

http://bible.com/1/jhn.14.6.KJV

>>227717

Why are you saging the thread?

And a religion cannot be THE anti-christ, however it can be antichrist in nature since it is false doctrine, which Islam (and Judaism, Mormonism, Watchtower Society, etc.) is.

Now, all that said, I'm posting a video from James White, very recent, where he discusses the two opposing views of Islam in regards to Salafi and Sufi (with brushes against Wahabi etc.).

I think it's a good video proper for good discussion.

Tell me what you all think after watching this:

Two Contrasting Views of Islam

>>227727

Agreed it is not the THE anti-christ. It is the work of the anti-christ. We cannot deny that false doctrine that leads to eternal death is a product of the anti-christ.

>>227733

>Agreed it is not the THE anti-christ. It is the work of the anti-christ. We cannot deny that false doctrine that leads to eternal death is a product of the anti-christ.

No, it's the work of Satan, that great dragon. As I recall and understand the anti-christ is of Satan but is not Satan himself, just like the false prophet of the anti-christ is neither Satan nor the anti-christ but a third figure of corruption to further spread their own ends as devised by Satan.

This is all in Revelation.

However, it is simple fact that all false doctrine is of the devil, of the dragon, so that's very true.

And all Christians MUST know this, because the only truth is the path of Christ Jesus our Lord Messiah, therefore all other paths are deceit, and all deceit is sin and in accordance to sinful nature of man and the despicable machinations of the dragon.

Thus Islam (along with Judaism, Mormonism, etc.) is an abomination of the dragon.

>inb4 BUT THAT'S OFFENSIVE TO MUSLIMS

James White would likely disagree in how bluntly I posed this truth but it's simply the truth, as is this: Muslims believe Christianity is false doctrine, manifested by deceitful men who altered God's Word in order to lead people astray

That means that Muslims believe Christianity is false doctrine (of the devil) just as Christians believe Islam is false doctrine (of the devil). This is simple logic and also simply the beginning of our parallel common ground. In understanding this we can speak to Muslims evenly, eye-to-eye, knowing that both of us would prefer the other to believe the other's doctrine, because both of us believe our doctrine is the true word of God.

Understanding this should lead to understanding and respect between a believer and a Muslim when discussing their faiths, and we must not attack a Muslim for their faith (if they are not attacking us or etc.) but rather discuss our faiths evenly, and after understanding the views of the other, we can then speak of Christ to them as they seek to speak of Muhammad to us.

Don't just dive in with "BUT MUHAMMAD WAS A SEXUAL DEVIANT WHO SAID IT WAS OKAY FOR MARRIED MEN TO RAPE SLAVES PREGNANT" since that's the same as a Muslim opening with "ALLAH HAS NO SON AND YOU FOLLOW CORRUPTED PAGES BY MEN WHO WARPED THE PROPHET JESUS (peace be upon him) INTO A SOMETHING HE WASN'T!"

It's just going to shut down conversation.

Yet, do know that both of these statements are honestly believed by their speakers.

Instead, do what David Wood, Nabeel Qureshi or even White explained here: begin with asking some honest questions, seeking to understand where they stand theologically, and present yourself to them without hatred or wrongful prejudice, since we aren't to speak to anyone about Christ Jesus in hatred but with love, seeking they find the truth rather than suffer a bitter end.

tl;dr Islam is indeed of the devil, and Muslims believe Christianity is likewise false doctrine. Don't take this as a wall to separate you from speaking to them, but rather understand where they fundamentally stand when you begin to speak to them so that you know you are, at least in this regard, even in discussion and intent.

Again, though, DO look, speak and act with discernment. Don't cast pearls before swine, but also don't view all unbelievers, including Muslims, as swine. Not all of them are swine. Many of them, aren't.

But those who are swine, do not speak to them. Do not associate with them. Do not trust them. Especially be cautious of them, because they are the creatures who afflict with rape and murder for vain glory and grotesque pleasure.

>>224917

this guy is great

>>227764

2: In the video posted here >>227727 at the 47:16 mark, James White goes into an issue he had with a certain Ben Shapiro video we posted here before. I'll post it with this post now.

What absolutely infuriated me was these words:

>He said the standard definition of "radicalized" was "believes in Sharia". Well, what's Sharia? "Well it's Islamic Law; it's all the same!" …You obviously haven't done much study of the various schools of interpretation, have you? No, unfortunately people don't.

>I always jsut want to sit back and go *facepalms* Okay, we just mentioned Philipians 2:5-11? What's the end of that? …Sounds like we Christians believe that someday every tongue will confess, someday Jesus will reign over all the earth, God's will will be accomplished, His kingdom established, and yet we freak out when another religion says "We're gonna do the same thing"– "you can't do that!" Oh, but you [Christians] can do that? "Yes but that's us, that's not…" *gazes incredulously* Where's the consistency? You need to be consistent.

I'm going to tear this apart in the next post, so please bear with me. For now, here is the video he mentioned regarding Ben Shapiro's research.

>>227756

The anti-christ is Satan.

>>227727

>>227774

Okay, so to begin with: Did you notice something?

In the video with Ben Shapiro, he begins by stating the percentages of Muslims who believe in "strict" Sharia Law.

What is Sharia Law? We've been over this in previous threads so allow me the convenience of pointing you to a couple of links to browse at your convenience…or I would, if WikiIslam was not taken down. …huh

Alright, well, there's this then:

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html

Some important recent incidents:

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/10/iran-executes-reyhaneh-jabbari-for.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/07/for-first-time-in-history-of-iraq-mosul.html

Now yes, Sharia is MUCH more than just hand-cutting…but don't be stupid. Hand-cutting is part of Sharia Law, as is testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman, a woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative, a man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce just to name a few which have already been occurring in multiple cases throughout Europe and certain incidents in America.

Oh indeed interpretation is paramount, and yes, since Muslims believe that God has spoken Sharia then they desire Sharia, or rather, they desire the "way and path Allah has established through his prophet" (hence the absolute need to prove God has not spoken Islam, as detailed here >>224350 ).

Again, not all Muslims follow this nor desire it to a T, but most do. Most do, because most believe that word-for-word this is what God has spoken. This is important to know because when people speak of Sharia [Law] they speak of a system of faith influencing societal, private and legal matters such as those mentioned in italics above. Those who endorse Sharia as what they want to see established endorse it in its fullest, what Shapiro said as "strict", and the more Muslims there are in an area/country the more "strict" Sharia becomes, the more enforced it becomes. This is evident fact.

>>227764

>Not all Muslims are the same. It's important to know that, especially when engaging with them.

I wish they would engage one another, talk, debate, and sort their religion out, which is the take home message of White's video, together with: "there's a 580-page book on Muhammad's battles, so we'd love to know how would anyone reconcile this to the image of a Jesus-like, peaceful-to-the-very-end kind of preacher."

>>221907

Did Old Goatbotherer just use the claim that God is omnipotent to try to argue that God can't possibly do something? How did this man get followers?

>>228096

Hahaha It's not as uncommon as you think and, yes, it's insanely ridiculous as it relies on a "logic" of man that inhibits God from being God.

You can find a Muslim here positing the question to Dr. Nabeel Qureshi, and check out especially how Qureshi responds.

>>221082

The First Crusade - Episode 6: The People's Crusade, 1096

>>218612

this is muzzy 101 Im not getting any insight here

>>228750

I know it's introductory; that's why I posted it so early on, along with the historian here >>218610

Continue on in the thread for more information and insight, especially with regards to the truth of the crusades from Real Crusades History:

DEBUNKED videos refuting Extra Credit lib-talk with reality of Crusades

>>218618

>>218619

>>218620

>>218621

>>218622

The First Crusade

>>218624

>>219063

>>219514

>>220302

>>221082

>>228710

And here we have current events, legalistic matters and theological insights regarding Islam:

>>218614

>>224932

VERY important videos, first regarding the "Migrant Crisis", second regarding the implementation/practice of Sharia Law

>>221914

>>224917

Important videos regarding a particular citation given about Islam and violence…

And here is the first excerpt from a particular book that's healthy for this thread regarding the theological assertions of Jesus as He appears in the Qu'ran: >>221907

Take your time viewing the thread in full, anon.

>>228767

why are the crusades relevant?

these are conflicts among different nation states and pseudo mercenaries

>>228768

>these are conflicts among different nation states and pseudo mercenaries

They are important because they are the beating stick used against Christians who speak a word regarding Islam (or Judaism).

History is important to learn about the history of the Crusades because it is the history of our ancestors, for both Christians and Muslims (and Jews). With a firm understanding of history you can accurately rebuke such claims as

>Islam has never been violent

>It has always been extremists

>The Islamic Empire saved us from the Dark Ages

>Christians had their own jihad: THE CRUSADES!!!!

>Christians killed Jews too!!!

etc.

It's not necessary but it does add more understanding and expands what we know regarding the theological founding and application of the perspectives of the Qu'ran and the hadith.

If you don't want to view them then alright, your choice. Theology is most important anyway with regards to our focus, but history and current events has a prominent place at this table regardless.

Instead you can check out here, perhaps this will give you what you're looking for (and the rest of the thread): >>227697

This is part two of the video shown here >>224932

>>228771

>still looking at videos, but

1.who makes these erroneous claims of islam never being violent, but the ignorant?

2."it has always been extremist" is an absolutist statement anyhow

3.the "dark age" of europe was a miniscule period in post rome medieval era, theres also these other literate people during the time called the Chinese…

4.you could portray the crusades this way, in some sort of post-modern relativistic way

5.who hasn't murdered jews?

>>228778

HAhaha! Anon, you are very clearly content with the knowledge you have now regarding the crusades issue, and judging from your responses here to the bullet points I can tell you'd do just fine in dealing with those far more ignorant of history.

Fair enough, mate. I post the crusade videos because I believe they are useful, interesting and enlightening on an otherwise obfuscated subject (only made cloudy and unclear due to the historical revisionists attacking truth).

I'll still post those videos but please don't retard yourself by watching them if you don't feel the need to. I would sincerely rather hear your notions, what you know and your views regarding everything else on the subject of Islam v. Christianity then.

What debates do you watch? What books have you read? What interesting research have you done? What's your opinion on all of this from your perspective, especially theologically?

I'd like to hear it.

Also, I hope I'm not coming off facetious or disingenuous. I am genuinely interested and appreciate your participation.

>>228801

I dont know everything about the crusades, but I know its western europe sweeping in to push back turks who were fucking the byzantines

the "Christian" bit of liberating the holy land is icing on the cake of moving into the trade rich and historic (even for the people back then) levant, I dont know much past the third crusade and christians and Jews being "allowed" in Jerasulem by Selahedine most of what I know about the 13th century is in relation to the mongols

I dont think Christians or Muslims have ever been very fond of each other, One refutes the faith of the other and vice versa

>>228816

Well said, mate, and very interesting. No wonder you're bored with introductory material.

Do you have anything you would like to bring to the thread, a particular video or article or maybe even favorite perspective you would like to contribute?

Also

>Selahedine

The name sounds familiar but I can't place it

>>228831

Selahedine

Saladin

Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn

Salidene

>>228833

Selahedine (his Kurdish form of his name) looks similar to its Arabic pronunciation (he ruled over mostly arabic speakers)

>>228833 (checked)

>>228837

Oh, I see. So he was the ruler who took over Jerusalem

>>228844

he took over the ruling caliphate, then started taking over the Levant from both Crusaders and other Muslim forces

>>228853

How did his rule end?

>>228865

he died right after King Richard left, but his sultanate got steamrolled by the mongols several decades later

>>228905

So that was when the mongol horde rose in dominion? Interesting

>>228927

the mongols stem from nomadic warrior horse riders from the asian grasslands and lived pretty much as close to the their ancestors from the time of King Cyrus (besides bow and arrow)

they usually only gained some enigmatic leader to start conquering nearby civilizations, Chinese dynasties would hire tribes to wipe out other barbaric asian tribes threatening their borders, they slipped up one time and hired Ghengis Khan who united the tribes and created a gigantic bloodthirsty cavalry that had military tactics of the modern era, attacking forces from all sides, regiments falling back simply to lead the opposing force into ambush, corralling the enemy into frenzy, chasing retreating enemy forces down until they surrendered strict discipline. But Ghengis Khan managed to build an empire extending past his lifetime…. a wasteland, but it lasted long considering they usually dissipated after the leader died (the huns, etc etc)

if we talk perspective, in relation to "ebil" islam

the mongols were more destructive than any horrible muslim state, yet were tolerant of other faiths and even had christian khans, they slaughtered millions and destroyed libraries of any city that bothered resisting them

they even wiped out the Ismailis

had they continued pass hungary, there would have been a real Dark Age for people to bitch about

>>228941

Odd way to put that.

Still, thanks for the concise history buff. It helps place things onto a cogent timeline anyone can follow.

>the mongols were more destructive than any horrible muslim state, yet were tolerant of other faiths and even had christian khans, they slaughtered millions and destroyed libraries of any city that bothered resisting them

Now this is incredibly surprising, and honestly makes me furious my school years were wasted on teachers who thought "Black History Month" literature and historical focus should be the entirety of a student's academic learning.

Anyway, is there anything else you would like to discuss about this? More detail you would like to add? Sorry if it seems like I'm poking you, mate, but I genuinely would like for you to feel free to talk about the subject of this thread and relay what you've come to learn in your own time, both historically and theologically.

___Also I have to admit I do the same thing with a friend of mine who's huge on studying history, especially warfare.

If not, then please feel free to post or bring up anything else relating to the thread at any time, friend! We can't go to much further into the Khans since we might derail from the Islamic focus of the thread, but whatever you feel would be good or interesting for the thread.

I'm glad to have anons of such diverse focuses and backgrounds contributing to these threads. It's our combined talents and knowledge which helps us grow together here with a fantastic balance, and with that growth we can be well armed for debate and discussion on a subject the world is either meekly subject to in fear or rabidly foaming against in ignorance.

Islam is poorly written Christian fan-fiction.

there seems to be exclusion of the significance of the use of Arabic or the arrangement of the Qu'ran in Arabic, part of its "appeal" is the "poetic" or "rhythmic" like ( if you were to compare a religious or philosophical text in english) literary and spoken composition thats said to be further proof of its "divinity"

Imagine say, If the gospel contained Dostoevsky, all the works of Walt Whitman and Pink Floyd Darkside of The Moon in One

>>229016

>there seems to be exclusion of the significance of the use of Arabic or the arrangement of the Qu'ran in Arabic, part of its "appeal" is the "poetic" or "rhythmic" like ( if you were to compare a religious or philosophical text in english) literary and spoken composition thats said to be further proof of its "divinity"

I see! Come to think of it, I honestly have not heard much of anything regarding the poetry (rhythmic or otherwise) of the Qu'ran.

I do have an incredibly enlightening and important excerpt from the book I mentioned previous on the subject of the different chapters of the Qu'ran and how the Qu'ran is meant to be read (reading order, etc. which I plan to post tomorrow after church) but as far as actual excerpts of poetic content goes I have to say that I'm genuinely at a loss.

I'm also genuinely curious and want to learn more about this.

Anon, do you have any excerpts or particular passages or elements of the texts you would like to bring up and post here?

I'll be gone for the night and most of tomorrow morning for church, but I'll be back on in the afternoon. So please don't take my lack of reply as a means of ignoring you (especially on a reasonably slowly paced board like this), but I really would like for you go into further detail and perhaps give example of what you describe.

>>229016

>Arabic, part of its "appeal" is the "poetic" or "rhythmic" like ( if you were to compare a religious or philosophical text in english) literary and spoken composition thats said to be further proof of its "divinity"

Also, I just wanted to note that this is likely the fundamental reasoning behind the claim that one does not truly know/has not truly read the Qu'ran unless one knows Arabic and has read the Qu'ran in Arabic.

It feels like a cop-out when debating or discussing theology with a Muslim who does this but it's the same argument made by Jews of Judaism– "You haven't read the Tanakh unless you've read it in Hebrew, otherwise you don't know anything!"

We have gone over this before in the second thread I believe (the second archive link) but it would be better to delve deeper into the focus on Arabic and the cultural tethers to the Qu'ran since we only scratched the surface before.

Does anyone have anything they would like to add?

Someone keeps flooding the board with re-pasta threads and I want to make sure these threads aren't disappeared over night (again).

>>229037

from a perspective of how one would view a work, it's not entirely a copout to say that to have a full understanding of it, one should read it in its original form and have some knowledge of the language used and its vocabulary and lexicon, but its usually a view of strict scholars or literary practitioners to want to only enjoy things in their original language, its not rare to hear a university professor say "you don't know -insert author- unless you read it in -x- language. But more importantly Islam has an obsession with the possible obfuscation or interpolation of the Qu'ran, banning its verses even being associated around music, you can't even play music with the call to prayer for fear of bringing ignorance, so to them, this notion makes total sense

uh oh christcucks, 2million views and mostly liked

>>229512

>But more importantly Islam has an obsession with the possible obfuscation or interpolation of the Qu'ran, banning its verses even being associated around music, you can't even play music with the call to prayer for fear of bringing ignorance, so to them, this notion makes total sense

Is that so? I never heard of that before. Very interesting, and it does lend a unique depth to that notion.

Do you know if this is the same for all branches of Islam? For instance, would a Salafi Muslim be more furious with Qu'ranic verses being associated with music or song than a Sufi Muslim, or is it the same no matter the approach to the doctrine?

>>229515

>uh oh christcucks

>2million views

>mostly liked

>youtube video

>saging trip with name of video

This almost physically hurt me to click on.

So to stop others from clicking this garbage:

Two Euro-libs (I can only assume from this overproduced and inane "social experiment") decide to replace a Bible with a Qu'ran cover (which doesn't seem like much of a Qu'ran cover to me) and highlight the "scandelous" verses of the Bible as to gauge the reaction of the people on the street.

Essentially it's a test to show how certain verses can easily be taken out of context in YOUR doctrine and sound just as bad! Surely it's the same thing right?

Right?

Well, no. No it isn't, because >>219070 and >>221907 and >>221914 (coupled with >>221916 and >>224917 ) are not only NOT taken out of context, but the context of each Islamic notion explored and the ayat they are derived from are taken IN context–that is to say, the textual, cultural, historical and theological contexts are all explored.

Please do have a viewing of a video that's actually worth the click, one produced humbly by a theologian and not a couple of morally liberal guys who believe themselves to be clever as they regurgitate the same sociopolitical ideological drivel that surrounds us today.

Ten Fast Facts You Need to Know about the Quran

Dr. David Wood

>>229518

The video mentioned there is this one, one regarding the origin of the Qu'ran as we know it today.

>>229516

I have no clue, Id need to look into it more

but its a core value, the purity of the verses of the Qu'ran (words of the prophet)

so itd be a very wish washy new agey kind of denomination of Islam, unless its some crypto-form of Taqiya

>>229544

What makes this concept so especially bizarre to me is that the Qu'ran is asserted to be the next and final book in the lineage of the Tanakh (Torah, Prophets and Writings, or OT) and Injeel (or NT).

Now, we all know that the only way the Qu'ran could dream of fitting into the lineage of the Old Testament and the New Testament is to claim the previous two were corrupted (vid related).

However, I have never heard a Muslim or Islamic apologist assert that the book of Psalms was at all corrupted, let alone entirely corrupted.

I say this because the OT is understood as God inspired Scripture (or literally "God breathed", along with the NT, but that's a different issue), and we know that what was written in THIS particular book was intended to be song.

tl;dr How can Islam have such a hard-line view of the Qu'ranic ayat never being associated with music when the previous Scripture it claims to be in alignment with has never had that issue and in fact bears part of itself (Psalms) for song and music?

That's not even to mention all of the other instances of song being written in the OT and NT, like the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy. We're exhorted to "teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Col. 3:17)

I know there are Islamic praise songs for Allah. I'm pretty sure I've heard them. However, to not have any verses from the Qu'ran in them just seems so strange to me considering this book claims to align itself with the previous two, which both presented God breathed Scripture for teaching, correction, and song.

>>229544

>so itd be a very wish washy new agey kind of denomination of Islam, unless its some crypto-form of Taqiya

Good point. While we can't allow ourselves to be so suspicious we don't take time to listen to what some have to say, sadly this must always in the back of the mind.

As a side note, since it was mentioned in the other thread, I've made a Zip file of everything from the Vs Threads up until the previous post here.

I've compiled everything of the Vs Christianity threads thus far into a Zip folder on Mega. It contains all of the previous threads for both Islam Vs and Judaism Vs. It has images, webMs, resources, the Zohar PDF, and Screengrabs of every previous thread in full (each thread that is Screengrabbed as an image is on archive.org and those archive links are up to date as of your post). There are also Screengrabs of web articles and pages along with the other images, though since some of those articles no longer exist (like wikiIslam) they do not have archive links.

Here is the mega link that you can download for yourself:

https://mega.nz/#!ecZCHKhR

>>229813

I dont think this is an issue for any theologian or believer

more so for random people

>>229927

What do you mean?

>>229824

Here is the actual Mega link that you can download for yourself:

https://mega.nz/#!ecZCHKhR!zgcXy0N_E462hEOTUS0cLboNm0wPkGlvQfBjkrUBCck

Last one had a password. Sorry.

Currently looking into some material to post for the thread. I'll post it once I return from bible study.

>>229958

someone of who has faith wouldn't bother being afraid of your opinion, so they wouldn't bother with Taqiya if they were pleased someone was asking them about islam and wanted to "enlighten" you with the prophet muhammad (unless of course lying all the time is the kind of character they have)

With that said, I think it's time to look into a Muslim presentation about Islam.

From Dr. Yasir Qadhi here is a presentation regarding the terminology and views we are discussing.

Dealing with Theological Differences in the Real World - Dr. Yasir Qadhi | 1st September 2013

I think you will find this very interesting and may open the door to some good discussion. Please have a view and tell me what you think.

>>231179

As a quick addition, here is Yasir Qadhi on a radio program speaking about Salafism and detailing why he left the Salafi movement/view behind.

EXCLUSIVE;The Salafi Movement & The Evil Cult of Najd & Why I Left,Shaykh Yasin Qadhi

>>231179

This was very good. I think we should give more of an ear to Muslims scholars for a while to hear their perspective. Hopefully it will be as enlightening as this was.

Anyway, for now here's another RCH video in the continuing historical series.

The First Crusade - Episode 7: Godfrey of Bouillon's Departure for the East

Dr Yasir Qadhi 2015, The Reality of ISIS Modern Muslim Fundamentalism

>>228710

>>231533

The First Crusade - Episode 8: Bohemond, Godfrey, and Raymond at Constantinople , 1096-1097

Decided to link this to this post >>232178 for contextual similarities.

This is an interesting video from an older Sunni Muslim woman who seeks to present the statistical realities about Islam and the divergent evil which, according to her, is a cancer upon her otherwise good faith.

Tell me what you think and no I do not think there is any deceit in what she is presenting or how she is speaking

By The Numbers - The Untold Story of Muslim Opinions & Demographics

>>232468

Continuing our deeper brush against statistics, current events, and ISIS, I have a video from Dr. Michael Brown's (Christian Jew Theologian) YT channel, an excerpt of a speech given on behalf of the Yezidi people who are and have been, alongside Christians, enduring a targeted and heinous genocide at the hands of Islamic jihadis.

I will warn you, this will be very, very difficult to sit through. It will hurt you. It hurt me, but we must see these things and hurt so that we might pray to the Lord in knowledge of the truth around us, laying before Him our woes both personal and on others' behalf, and thus glorify His name by entrusting Him with such monumental cataclysms as these.

This is how we can praise our Lord despite the ever increasing horrors around us, not halfheartedly, but fully, knowing that in Christ Jesus we have victory over Despair and all the dragon's forces, for in Him we are family and we are free. No matter what occurs, our Lord is sovereign, perfectly righteous and not only is His peace promised to us, a peace we all share in even now as we stand together in Christ's name, but also that our ever-just Hero King will wreak vengeance on behalf of His children and all who are afflicted by the bloodthirsty wicked children of the devil.

Now, if you would, watch this video in full, and pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ, as well as for those of false doctrine who suffer so terribly by the same evil hands who afflict our family in the Lord and those who proclaim to be our family (whether they are or not).

Watch this video, brothers, and pray.

>>218609

http://www.churchleaders.com/daily-buzz/268496-greatest-movement-of-muslims-turning-christ.html

Though this was relevant. God bless!

>>233672

That's because most of those words are in the Old testament, which is no longer binding.

On the other hand, muslims cause way more violence and destruction in general

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

>>233672

I guess that explains the existence of CSIS as opposed to ISIS.

>>233672

I find this non-argument even more ridiculous considering the Qu'ran is significantly smaller than the Bible. Oh! And don't forget the ahadith, the (sometimes conflicting) extra-Qu'ranic records of Muhammad's sayings and deeds, as well as the records of his faithful soldiers and scribes, which ALL Muslims utilize in order to make sense of and interpret the Qu'ran historically and doctrinally.

Good post, anon. haha

How much do you want to bet the fool who made this image doesn't even know what a hadith is, let alone the truest difference between the faiths?

>>233672

It would be a much better argument if you actually gave some context to those words, Ahmed

>>233672

>100% out of context CTRL+Fing a book ten times longer than the Koran proves Christianity is a more violent religion

>>>/reddit/

>>233672

yet at the current moment, most christians are pseudo-hippies

In direct contrast to Dr. James White's current bout of…well…highly disturbed opinions on the Islamic majority, Dr. Michael Brown (whose channel also posted this video >>232719 ) has issued a rather open and genuine call to discussion regarding the information shared in this video >>232468 and the CAIR organization, along with any leading Muslim figure.

In sincerity, love, and understand the whole truth of things, in as much as we can understand them, Dr. Brown gives us this video.

I thought this might be interesting to post considering it's a subject I've heard echoed before:

The Mahdi = Antichrist Theory Exposed – Origins of Islamic Eschatology – Chris White

Essentially the notion that the Antichrist of Revelation will be the Islamic prophesied Mahdi is false.

>>232373

The First Crusade - Episode 9: Siege of Nicaea, 1097

>>234379

The First Crusade - Episode 10: Battle of Dorylaeum, 1097

>>233970

I've been watching James White's podcasts and everything he has said about muslims for the past few broadcasts can be summed up as "#notallmuslims" and defending them at every turn when it comes to terrorism.

>>227717

>>234869

The First Crusade - Episode 11: Baldwin of Boulogne and the County of Edessa

>>233963

we were talking about how violent those people "by name only" really are, they're not very violent at all, we werent talking about how they dont care about following a thousand year old book collection

do I seriously need to hunt down statistics of violent acts of terror by religious affiliation?

>>235741

Beneath Communism and Rome is Islam, last I checked. Would be interesting to see what stats say what, though.

>>235742

I dont see any proper meta-analysis that accounts for the ratios of christians to muslims

>>235742

>>235744

I have a report for 2011 stating 70% of victims are at the hands of not only muslims, but specifically sunni muslims

most of these stats dont seem to ID christians as a perpetrating group, slapping them into "other" and "right-wing" it seems

https://fas.org/irp/threat/nctc2011.pdf

>>235744

No but I've heard of statistics that relate the death toll totals for major beliefs and political ideologies. Like I said, last I heard it was Communism that topped the list (or possibly just Atheism? Certainly Communism with regards to political ideologies), then it was Rome (as in the Inquisition, Pope-can-do-no-wrong kill-the-heritics Reformers-BTFO) and then it was Islam.

But it's been a while and I wish I could find it as well. I suppose the death toll of Rome's crimes would be attributed to Christianity, though it clearly isn't at all.

However, it would make for some interesting common ground: Islam is attributed a shocking, horrific death toll but the Muslim one would engage with would likely (hopefully) decry most of those deaths as not being in alignment with the spirit of Islam. We, as Christians, would then detail how the crimes of Rome are not the crimes of Christianity either, and we can then show evidence from Scripture why. Then the Muslims can show evidence of their theology from their doctrine and some interesting discourse could follow.

>>235747

communist secular (athiest possibly by proxy) states in the 20th century account for more state sanctioned genocide (and the numbers are in the tens of millions, rome and the mongols doesnt compare), this isnt really comparable to religiously motivated people who are essentially "seperatists" rather than members of a government, and Christianity was wrapped in the state affairs of Europe for some time

>>235746

Shame, as it would have made for good common ground. Still, nice work, mate! It's good to have some info like this for the threads in case we need it for whatever reason! Thanks.

Still, this is in the modern era and not a historic death toll like I was talking about. Surely it's obvious that Islam is associated strongly with the death tolls of today (along with the general evil of monopolistic billionaires, zionists, and the bankers who own nations via leashes of debt). Brief note: "Zionism" is absent from the pdf as well.

And yes, it's true that Sunni theology is at the forefront of the jihadist activity, but it's a particular type of Sunni if I recall. Not all Sunni are the same theologically.

Though I wonder why Sunni Islam is the most given to violence. Have we gone over anything in these threads which would indicate why?

We already knew from previous information that Sunni was there, but why Sunni in particular?

What about that theological view lends itself easier to violent intent/action than otherwise?

>>235748

Ah, very good point, friend. Wish I read this post before I finished my other post above. haha

And yes, that death toll is utterly cataclysmic in scale.

>>235750

>>235749

most people want to point out wahhabi/salafi teachings that gained prominence with arabian oil money, thats somewhat true for 9/11 and Al Queda specifically, but thats not true for all muslim related terrorism

I might say this, but wouldnt around certain people, but both in a theological sense, and from the basis and history to which the religion itself sprang from, Islam perpetuates a certain level of violence, it just gets determined by how violent and angry the individuals are, and then they scroll through hadiths and the koran looking for passages to pluck out to rally other people and justify their actions, but the terrorist organizations themselves seem to thrive mostly off of the middle east's instability rather than just the religion itself, as the more stable countries in the region are not the places these people really operate in, the people calling for violence get more and more outspoken the further you go into areas in which rule of law and stability are not set, and there isnt a police force or military ready to get rid of your presence (countries in civil war and full rural outlands)

>>235764

That's a very interesting observation, mate, and considering the first thing out of jihadists' mouths when trying to vindicate their actions or calling for others to join them is the evil of the West etc. (on a political level, anyway) reflects what you said here.

Perhaps that's also why Boko Haram has been such a force for so long in Africa.

>>235764

Actually, just how much do we know about the prestigious figures behind the arabian oil funding?

>>235725

The First Crusade - Episode 12: The Siege of Antioch, 1097

Anyone have anything to add for the discussion of the thread?

>>218622

DEBUNKED: Europe: The First Crusade - II: Peter the Hermit - Extra History

This is very interesting.

Also, Extra Credits & Cultural Marxist/SJW academia STILL fails in comparison o proper study.

I think this is healthy for both Vs Christianity threads..

The First Crusade - Episode 13: The Siege of Antioch, 1098

Upcoming debate on "Is Jesus God?"

New video from David Wood on Jihad Comes to Philadelphia

Considering recent events, the massive sexual assault and rape riot in Germany during New Years and the near-murder of a police officer by the hands of a lunatic jihadist, I suspect you lot have something more to add to this discussion.

Please feel free to air your thoughts and concerns, mates. We're here to study together.

>>241796

Sorry for the vid repost.

I know more about Islam than I wish to know, if only I could delete it out of my brain and never hear it's name again

>>241800

I understand, mate. Is it just a wretched thought for you these days or is it that you feel like Islam, or the discussion of it, has become just so prevalent that its become awful for you?

Do you have any thoughts or insights you would like to give? It doesn't need to be nice, only honest.

A lecture on the Abrahamic fallacy, or why the theological interpretation of Abraham (can I say Abramology yet?) is different between the three monotheistic faiths, and this "Abrahamic family of religions" is in fact a Trojan horse.

Yes, the lecture does takes place @ Children of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, so there might be som bias in that particular direction, but the speaker is an Anglican theologian, and it's mostly focused on the Islamic view VS the Biblical view.

>>241876

Surah 60:4 is of interest:

>There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah. Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.

60:5:

>Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

>>241876

This will be very interesting to look into! Thanks, mate! I'll give this a view when I wake up in some hours; need sleep now.

Also, since we grazed the subject in this vid, If you're curious we have the Judaism Vs Christianity thread regarding Judaism and all aspects of such both theologically and politically here https://8ch.net/christian/res/227408.html#227412

>>241878

>>Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

How does this gel at all with the exhortations given to Muslims throughout the rest of the Qur'an?

And perhaps it's the sickness getting to me but something rings very, very off about this odd approach regarding Abraham (likely because Muhammad didn't actually know Scripture). Can you put it onto basic terms what the Qur'an's author is trying to convey here?

>>242088

>Can you put it onto basic terms what the Qur'an's author is trying to convey here?

The Islamic Abraham is a prophet of Allah, the originator of Islam, and like all other prophets an exemplar man.

And this exemplar man is full of hatred for the unbelievers (i.e. Jews and Christians), among the daily prayers Muslims also pray not to "go astray, etc." (i.e. like the Jews and Christians) and so did every other prophet.

How can such a man be the poster boy of interfaith dialogue is beyond the comprehension of that video's theologian, and mine as well. They speak of "Abrahamic religions" when Abraham is such a point of divergence between Islam and the two older faiths.

A similar treatment is basically given to all OT characters, and Jesus, mentioned throughout the Qur'an.

how should I kick off trying to convert someone? I'm talking to this muslim girl, and she said that she would seriously consider if I could convince her. I feel like I have enough information, but I don't know how to begin. I think it might be counterproductive to just spew information out at her.

>>242261

Now, check out the vid here >>238409

And I'll give some advice of my own.

Engage her in discourse, asking her about certain things which you have learned about and are curious regarding. Ask about how much she knows about:

>What view of Islam does she follow? Shiite, Sunni, Salafi, etc.

This is important. It will show you both what theological train she follows and just how intently she follows it. Likely if you are a man then she may be from a much less strict theological worldview that otherwise, since she is a woman and openly willing to speak to you regarding this (let alone consider it).

>Why would you be willing to convert? What aspects of Christianity interests her?

This is important because you want to know if you are tossing seeds at a block of cement which was only teasing you for mockery. I doubt it, but sometimes it's how it goes.

If she's sincere she will give an answer, even vaguely, regarding some notion of Christianity she has heard of. Depending on that notion and how correct it is, this will lead you to discuss with her why it is incorrect/why it is correct based on the bible– which I STRONGLY recommend you bring with you!!

If that does not take you on a small journey of discussion, or if that train of thought shortens at all, begin to ask her about:

>Muhammad (Who is he to her? What kind of person is he and how does she feel about him? Where did she learn about Muhammad? What did that person who taught her about Muhammad believe about him?)

VERY important; most Muslims will commend Muhammad of course but not many really know much about him outside of what they have been taught by family and in the mosque.

You want to know how deeply she feels about Muhammad: the stronger her feelings, the more messianic he becomes (being likened with phrases and attributes found in Christ actually, as detailed earlier in the thread). You also want to know how much she knows about him historically. This will in turn show you the teaching she has had up to date and likely what her family believes as well.

>the Qur'an (Has she read it on her own? What kind of verses [or ayat] stood out to her from it? What ahadith pertains to her faith? Has she read any hadith?)

Again, same thing. Make sure that you are prepared to have the surahs you quote contested to by whatever material she has in hand. She also may want to verify the things you say by looking it up on her phone online. This is alright; don't fight this. This freedom to look up information on-the-spot will help you when she inevitably asks a question regarding the Scriptures that you don't know like the back of your hand.

Begin speaking to her about certain subjects from a theological basis, not cultural and NOT historical–yet. Theology is what matters here first.

Some videos that are quick and very interesting, thus would be good to watch with her, are:

>>229520 The Qur'an has missing texts which were burned

>>219560 Trinity question

>>227813 Abrogation

Later the harder stuff, like Al'Azl, jihad, etc. are to be brought up once the lighter and more amiable subjects have been covered. These include:

>>221914 Misquotation "to kill a life is to kill the world" surah from the Qur'an

>>224917 same as above, different face

>>227764 Taqiya (do not imply SHE is using this, but that many Muslims have used this, and how it is abused by jihadists to commit villainy under deceit)

The "Abrahamic Religions" trail is wrong:

>>241878

>>242133

Sharia Law (which is a law from Allah and thus what Muslims are told they should desire) is a subject that may arise, though I have my doubts since again she is actually ready and willing to speak to you openly, let alone about all of this. Two important vids:

>>224932

>>228775

>>242261

As for Jesus, the Son:

When the Word was made flesh, when the Son came in the Incarnation to walk the earth as Jesus, recognized as Christ (Christus, "Anointed One" Messiah), the Son willingly made Himself low for our sake, acting as the humble servant to the Father to detail how we all must follow Him as our shepherd in a like manner of humble servitude to the Father. In this way He taught us how to act and behave both in relation to the increasingly sinful world and in relation to our God.

When the Son prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself but communicating on a profound level with Father. Make no mistake that this will be a question.

Satan tempted the Son, Jesus Christ, because of 1. His desire to stop the prophecy that had been written and known in Scripture up to this point (and since this was the time for the Messiah to come, the only time He could come according to prophecy then, that is His first appearance not His second coming as detailed in Revelation for the millennial reign after the destruction of the world under the wrath of God, which Christians are spared from by His grace for holding faith in Christ as Lord and seeking His path in truth not to be confused with the great tribulation, which those of us alive then WILL endure, a massive genocide unlike any other by the Antichrist's command, which will only be outdone by the genocide of the wicked on the Day of the Lord ), and 2. His intense arrogance and pride led him to believe he could tempt the Son since He now walked in the flesh of man, but Christ resisted because He is the Son and was the Son even then in that flesh and thus devoid of any sin.

Christ Jesus, the Son, grew, ate, slept, and even wept. He felt all the emotions we feel, and endured (though never partaking in) all the temptations we endure. The Son KNOWS us in a way no other view of God can, and that is because He truly is God. In fact, He even felt anxiety over the day that was prophesied to come on the night it came, though He knew what was to come thereafter.

Freely giving Himself over to destiny, the purpose for which He had come, He endured the greatest suffering ever known. All the torture, the splinters, the nails, the thorns and beatings, was worsened by the humiliation He endured at the hands of sinful man, but He did not roar. He knew this was all meant to come, and desired that it be fulfilled, because it was being fulfilled for the sake of the ones whose names are written in the Book of Life, those who believe on Christ, repent and turn on His path with all their soul.

Consider that the Son, who is one with the Father and Spirit, who is and was and will forever be God, had cast off His divinity to endure ALL THIS for OUR sake–YOUR sake!! Even unto death.

>>242307

>>242311

>>242313

The Jews who believed mourned, even the apostles. The Jews who followed the despicable Pharisees scoffed and reviled Him! Yet the day came soon when, as He had predicted, He had risen bodily again. This time He was making His resurrection known and indeed bore the wounds of His willing sacrifice to all He appeared to. This was no delusion. Those who witnessed this would later ALL die horrible deaths without ANY gain. Some even left their wives and children to witness and ultimately suffer and die all for the sake of Christ and furthering this Good News: that the Messiah HAD come at the appointed time and HAS arisen, and WILL return.

Until that day we who believe are given the One whom the Son said He would send, the comforter, the Holy Spirit who (not "what", the Holy Spirit is a "who", a divine person) indwells us who believe and directly tethers us to God. In this way we are walking temples of the Lord, hence why, though we are saved by faith and sanctified by the Lord, we MUST walk in the path of Christ as to not sully this temple.

In this way God literally dwells within us and guides us towards Him. A vision of this is the Holy Spirit within the praying Christian who is kneeling in prayer beside the Son, who is guiding us, and we are praying to the Father.

This bodily resurrection is also a testimony that we too will be resurrected bodily, but not in these bodies. Indeed our bodies will be perfected, as we will be perfected in spirit.

Certain limitations were held on the Son due to the nature of the Incarnation (like not knowing the "day or hour" of the Day of the Lord "But only the Father knows), yet these limitations were lifted when He arose to glory again, taking back on His robe of divinity, a robe of purity and glory He, by His grace, will grant to all those who believe on Him true for their faith alone (a faith that is true which bears fruit for His namesake). The beginning of Acts shows that the Son no longer was limited, that is to say, that He no longer limited Himself. Jesus does not respond with "I still do not know the time or hour of that day" but rather "It is not for you to know", meaning He does know but won't tell them.

For a vision of what Christ Jesus our Lord, the Son of God, looks like in full glory, read

Revelation 19:11-16

This will dispell the "hippy white guy" trash blasphemy that has been perpetuated by this corrosive culture.

You can also find descriptions in Isaiah 40:27-31

This is also a short video which does a very good explanation for the reverence and nature of Christ, His sacrifice, and the nature of the God we serve.

>>242261

Last video to show is this one which is central to the confusion inherent within Islamic doctrine, the schizophrenia regarding how the Scripture before the Qur'an should be viewed.

>So why did Jesus say that God has forsaken him on the cross?

>Because he quoted Psalms

>Yeah nice excuse Jesus is a fraud

How do I even confront this?

>>242669

You don't confront it. They asked a question, you gave the answer, and they retorted with willfully ignorant dismissal and blunt insult.

That's when you dust off your sandals, mate. There is no need to waste breath on a person like that.

I discussed with an atheist once who started making spaghetti monster comparisons despite my explanations regarding the validity of God as the Creator in a universe with overwhelming evidence of intelligent design.

He brought up fossil records. So did I. When that frustrated his evolution nonsense he went back to spaghetti monster comparisons. I left him there and have no doubt he thinks he "won" to this day.

But you did very well in answering that question, anon. There's more to it than that but that's a great focus and doorway into the full complexity and implications of that moment of Christ's crucifixion. It's a response (when given more details obviously) that can lead to real discussion and enlightenment as well as traversal through multiple citations and areas of Scripture.

If that's how you went about it, as I see it, you did well for the Lord, mate.

It's not your fault people retard themselves.

Now this is an interesting video

Donald Trump: Surprising Support by Muslim American Shafie Ayar

Bart Ehrman vs. James White Debate P1

This debate is very good for the issue regarding textual variants and the transmission of the NT text throughout history (especially early Christian church).

It only grazes Islam but the subject is regarding quite seriously the only argument Muslims are given for the "corruption" of the Gospel.

With this information we can refute such a notion not only with factual confidence but with the strength of our faith's roots being in God's miraculous movement within His church.

>>243354

Part 2

Check this out.

CNN: Whitewashing Islam

CNN is beyond retarded.

>>242669

>>242677

Jesus quoted it because it expressed how he felt. He wouldn't just say that if it didn't resonate with what he felt on the cross. He wasn't just quoting scripture like some parrot.

He felt forsaken, for a moment. It's another form of suffering he had to endure. A type of suffering many many people feel daily.

>>244457

What you said is actually touched on in this debate I posted in the other Vs thread.

https://youtu.be/5xVkKkpo-lk?t=1h43m36s

The whole debate is regarding the deity of Jesus, though it has more to do with arguing against Judaism and Unitarianism than Islam so I didn't post it here earlier.

However, this subject correlates to such an important subject that I want to post it here and hear from all of your thoughts on this as well.

Also, he wasn't quoting it as a parrot but as a sign, and I also believe, as I stated before, that there was more complicated implications to the quotation than only just the powerful importance of the Psalm being quoted by our Lord in that moment.

Jesus was never forsaken or split/separated from the Father–that is to say, God was not split from God, God was not divided from God, at any time.

However, as I understand it in my current studies, you are right in that Jesus did not only quote this Psalm as symbol/sign (thus a quote of victory) but Himself, in that moment of intense suffering bearing the sins of the world, did feel forsaken.

To quote Dr. Michael Brown in the clip I linked for the video I'm embedding:

>"The Psalm 22 point is quite clear; the forsakenness is that 'I haven't been delivered from this deathly situation' but then He is delivered to the praise of the entire earth, so by quoting that He is drawing attention to Psalm 22.

>"If there was a kind of spiritual symbolic seperation you wanted to discuss because He took on the sins of the world on His shoulders and felt the weight of that–that's not an issue. But the separation between Father and Son in terms of a reality of separation is another story.

This is one of the best full debunking of Islam I think I ever saw.

>>244591

Reformed Apologetics Ministries really need a new narrator.

I always have a hard time listening to this guys voice for hours on end.

>>244595

Yeah he puts people to sleep. Informative, but you can't listen for a long time without getting drowsy.

Why do they say the Gospel is corrupt?

Do they have an uncorrupted Gospel?

We have over 5,500 original manuscripts of epistles in Greek, over 10,000 in Latin, and about 9,500 in various other languages, and for the most part they all agree with each other, minus typos and duplicate words that are easily weeded out. They can't all be corrupt right?

Sam Harris acts a grand fool and David Wood takes a few minutes to explain that, unlike what this random new celebrity atheist spews, our Lord Christ Jesus did not, in fact, order His followers to bring Him dissidents and kill them.

Fact-Checking Sam Harris 2: Did Jesus Command Christians to Kill in Luke 19:27?

Also comes with some insight into the parable of the Ten Minas and it's relation to King Herod.

>>239299

The First Crusade - Episode 14

The Fall of Antioch, 1098

has anyone used the argument that the crucifixion is a pretty much confirmed historic event? how do they react? I know some will say that Allah made Judas look like Christ so he would be cruficied and punished, but obviously that would imply that Allah accidentally started Christianity, or purposefully deceived people into a false belief, two things that God by definition cannot do. I've been working on this girl for a while, and she's kind of getting there, but I want to put the nail in it. right now she's just drifting I suppose. also she does not like transubstantiation one bit.

The Truth About Israel, Islam, and Palestinian Christians

>>245922

Ismaeli Shia Muslims believe it was the old switcheroo. This is taken from an old Gnostic gospel called the Apocryphon of Peter, which is a little wacky to say the least. Also the Gospel of Basilides. Sunnis merely believe he played possum on the cross and on the third day revealed he was faking it before ascending to heaven.

>>245948

>messianic jews

too zionist, pro-israel for me.

>>244681

>that pic

lmao

>>246058

Either you believe God created an abomination that would lead countless away from Him, or you believe Jesus, the Sinless One, deceived countless men.

Thanks for the information though, mate.

>>246065

You can filter out the personal view from the enriching teaching of the Lord's Word. As long as they are Christian and not some Judaizer.

>>246902

JAMES WHITE BTFO

>>246909

You need to be less defensive and start attacking islam. You will see how quickly she stops talking about the "muslim point of view" when she sees what complete failure islam is.

>>246909

>>246903

You're treating God like some sort of schizophrenic with 3 minds. Implying that 1 mind judges while 1 mind forgives. You're implying that without this separation forgiveness is impossible? That doesn't make any sense.

A unitarian God functions the same as a trinitarian God, both are omnipotent, omniscient and ever merciful. Both can *do* the same things. Both are 1 God with 1 will and 1 mind and 1 purpose.

The way you talk about the trinity makes it sound like polytheism…

>>246911

well we've been speaking for a month or so before even talking about religion. then I asked her about converting and she said she would consider. then when we started talking I quickly realised she had no clue about Christianity at all. she thought that the trinity was Mary, Jesus and God being three separate gods and she didn't know that the majority of the bible was written before the coming of Christ. so I decided to get her to ask questions and I explain it. there's no point attacking Islam if she thinks that Christianity is pure insanity, but if she understands it then there is something for her to turn to. that's my reasoning anyway.

btw, where would you suggest starting with an attack on Islam? I think attacking the legitimacy of their claim that the Gospel is corrupted is a good start.

>>246913

how would you explain it then?

I thought that's what matthew 10:33 implied, that Christ intercedes on behalf of us to the Father.

>But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I mean it's plainly stated in romans 8:34.

>Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

>>246926

>Christ intercedes on behalf of us to the Father.

Ya, but the Son does the will of the Father and obeys the father, they have 1 will.

The point is that, there's really no difference in how a trinitarian or unitarian God function. It's monotheism after all, 1 God with 1 will.

A unitarian God can manifest on earth in some immanent form, born as a "human", as well. He can forgive just the same.

>>246931

I get you. if there's no difference one how a trinitarian and unitarian God function, then should I steer clear of trying to justify Christianity this way? because at the end of the day this is the intent.

>>246933

ya I wouldn't use that argument, even if you could make it work it's just really abstract.

I would focus more on how Christianity is about a personal relationship with God rather than a legalistic framework for society. There's no death penalty for apostasy, no stoning for adultery, it's more equal towards women, no polygamy, no child marriage, etc.

>>246158

Of course, those are not actually Muslim women, or at least not the most fundamentalist and conservative Muslim women.

Such do not even speak to men, let alone non-Muslim men.

I remember this from long, long ago and still find this farce sickening on multiple levels. I can't imagine any self respecting Muslim taking joy in it either.

Really, it seems tailored for the feminist crowd.

Didn't mean to post the video again. Site screwed up.

>>246901

Alright, give me a moment to read this. >>246903

>btw we're pretty much close friends at this point, so we both trust each other and nothing is taken to harshly when questions are asked.

BEAUTIFUL! Friendship enables honesty, and honesty emboldens the pursuit of truth.

>>246901

>>246909

Do NOT start attacking Islam, not yet. The assertion of God's triune nature is a good place to start, but the reason why the revelation of God's complex unity actually makes sense with regards to salvation is important to understand and convey simply.

>>246931

>A unitarian God can manifest on earth in some immanent form, born as a "human", as well. He can forgive just the same.

A unitarian God cannot manifest on earth and yet be enthroned in heaven at the same time. God would have had to either leave His throne, essentially leaving the universe apart from His conducting and omniscient eye for a time, or He would have had to send a human proxy which acts as His agent.

This is why unitarianism is unbiblical, because God is capable of being in multiple places at once, which cannot be if He came into the Incarnation, an act which voluntarily limits His divine attributes due to the human flesh.

>>246909

She got confused due to your way of handling it and got frustrated so she gave up. Don't take it to heart, though; tell her that you are studying your faith just as she is studying hers.

>was I just a sperg or did I make some good points?

You tried to make good points, and if you think you were a sperg try speaking and rambling about the various discoveries on God you have made from your studies for an HOUR STRAIGHT to a cousin who only just came into the faith. haha! I out sperg you by miles.

What has she told you of her faith? What does she find wise regarding her religion? Tell me about her if you would.

And always remember, never forget, to always break from speaking to ask her opinions and thoughts on your discussion. You did better than me my first time on this, but do keep it in mind. No one can stand monologues for very long, no matter how interested they are or how enlightening the monologue is. People need to know their imput isn't being ignored or that it's at least being considered.

As for corrections:

God does not have two wills, and all is in accordance to His righteousness. God's defining characteristic (among so many) is His righteousness.

You see, the sacrifice on the cross does not symbolize God either discovering a way to forgive or splitting Himself in two so that He might forgive, but rather it symbolizes His righteousness in full: Wrath and Love

WRATH because of all Jesus endured.

LOVE because of all Jesus endured for our sake.

See, God will not forgive the sins of men without justice being served. It cannot be done, for He is perfectly righteous and His righteousness demands justice.

Justice, however, is that all sinful men go to Hell to suffer eternally in outer darkness, burning in the lake of fire, for the curse of sin they bear–their "sin nature", literally our wicked nature of rebellion to all that is God–and all the sins they commit. This is indeed what occurs. God detests the wickedness of sin and all who are given over to such sin. Not even a single lie can pass His ear without it inflaming His ire, for even the smallest lie is an act of wickedness and He is perfectly righteous.

Yet God has always delighted in mercy and shown forgiveness. As it is written:

>"Who is a God like You,

>Pardoning iniquity

>And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

>He does not retain His anger forever,

>Because He delights in mercy.

>He will again have compassion on us,

>And will subdue our iniquities.

>You will cast all our sins

>Into the depths of the sea."

– Micah 7:18-19

>>247137

>>247139

thanks for the info, when talking to her I felt myself that there was somethings I didn't understand myself. I think I'm just being confusing when trying to explain it. it is a difficult concept to talk to someone about tbh.

>>247145

she's told me that she just does the minimum to remain a muslim, so I get the feeling that she is questioning it herself, however the trinity is the one stumbling block. I'm going to try shift the discussion over to her while I study more about the trinity, clearly I have lots to learn.

thanks though, much appreciated.

>>247166

>it is a difficult concept to talk to someone about tbh.

Of course! But don't feel bad about not being able to convey it easily or fully understanding it yourself. As I said, what I have given you is only the tip of the mountain of revelation on God's nature. Jesus is God indeed, not merely part of God, and while God is three divine persons He is also one Being.

God is one of a kind. It only makes sense that trying to describe His essence would be a difficult task, no? But yes, study and continue to study, and hopefully what you have studied thus far will help you the next time you converse with her on this.

>she's told me that she just does the minimum to remain a muslim, so I get the feeling that she is questioning it herself

I see. You would be surprised how many Muslims in the West are very much like her, only really following the doctrine they doubt because their family wholeheartedly believes it. Sadly you can say the same about supposedly Christian families who profess Christ but don't make the effort of getting to know Him, like you are.

>however the trinity is the one stumbling block. I'm going to try shift the discussion over to her while I study more about the trinity, clearly I have lots to learn.

Very wise choice and a wonderful statement of humility, brother. Never forget that before every opening of Scripture, and before every time we speak to others on Christ, we must Pray to the Father for His guidance, for the discernment of the Holy Spirit and for our likeness to reflect Christ Jesus our Lord. Pray for your mouth to be filled with the words He desires, for your mind to be filled with the focused thoughts He finds good, and for Him to continue to both reveal ever more of Himself to us in our study as well as to mold us and use us as the living tools of His will, for we are His children, His humble servants, His emissaries. You are the lantern of God within which burns the eternal fire of His Holy Spirit. Pray for this wise, powerful flame to beam its light in your studies and in your efforts to speak on Christ to others, all for the glory of God's most holy name ("name" meaning "who He is, His identity, His being, not that there is one specific name in a specific language that is most holy).

>thanks though, much appreciated.

Hahaha! God bless you wonderfully in Christ Jesus, brother! I'm so very proud of your efforts to engage others on faith especially for your zeal to study further to see God reveal more of His truth to you. I am so excited for you, my brother in Christ, and what God has in store for your future and the eternity beyond in His presence.

Keep us posted, ay? Don't hesitate to update us on anything–and I mean anything—that you come across in either your further conversations on faith with your Muslim friend or your studies in Scripture. After all, we are all students here as well growing in our understanding of God and the path He set before us.

Ah, I love you sincerely in the Lord, my brother in Christ. May your blessings reflect the smile our Father holds dearly for you.

A lot of stuff here I was unaware of. Thank you.

It's gonna take me awhile to save this entire thread with all of its resources.

>>247525

God bless you in Christ, mate! You're welcome.

And don't worry too much about the resources as I've been collecting the posts and data of the Vs Christianity threads regularly. Contains almost everything from all the threads we have had thus far, from pictures to archive links for the threads to screengrabs of the threads and the websites mentioned for each.

Here is the updated link to the MEGA:

https://mega.nz/#!jR4WjTiT!GHCTVVBrb9W1Cw4BqcP-uQCcn2Vnuo0dKU-J8LkN7Sw

>>247617

Hey, Thanks.

>>248948

You're welcome, mate!

Sorry I have not updated with any more information lately. I'm currently very ill still and praying fro the Lord of help.

Please continue to study and share, anons, whenever you can.

>>245863

The First Crusade - Episode 15: The Holy Lance, 1098

David Wood slams it out of the park with this study on Muhammad's….

Whiteness?!

David Wood has essentially refuted Islam. Every debate he's had he won quite effectively, and his arguments are straight forward, easy to understand

>>242669

Because he still had a human will and felt emotions

>>255839

For the higher academic approach you have James White

For the clear-cut, straight up arguments you have David Wood

For intimately, personal experience and knowledge of the subject matter as well as the whole experience of leaving Islam for Christ, you have Nabeel Qureshi.

There are far more theologians, like Abdul Saleeb, whose witness testimony can be found here http://www.answering-islam.org/Testimonies/abdul.html

But otherwise I do agree with you, mate. David Wood I find incredibly interesting because of his personality and how he approaches the material. He makes every public debate and video an up front challenge to everyone listening to, in a sense, do the homework and try to prove me wrong.

It shows a great confidence rather than conceit, and you'd be surprised how many Muslims appreciate the approach. Yes, plenty get upset but I've seen more actually find interest in his videos, especially when they feature him and Dr. Qureshi like >>229520

The frankness of his approach is refreshing, I suppose. I still have a lot of respect Dr. White on this matter, but after his couple month long bout of practically #notallIslam nonsense on his radio bits…

Sorry for the double-post of the video; website's coded by monkeys.

>>255846

Indeed, it's important to keep this in mind along with the truth of the quotation of Psalms. Remember that if it was ONLY that, then He would have recited the quotation in a language which everyone understood. However, He stated aloud

Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani

Which led some onlookers to confuse what He said as His crying out to Elijah.

Yes, it most certainly is a quotation of Psalm 22 and glorious sign at that, a purposeful one, but it was not stated with mere breath or recitation.

As our other anon rightfully stated >>24445

And I later added >>244462

I've got a real treat for this thread coming in about a week or so. Hopefully it pulls off well and I can share it with everyone.

This is an incredibly interesting video attacking James White's defense of Islam by someone known as "Christian Prince" (has written/published books on Islam).

It's a very long but honestly incredibly interesting vid. Got it from another thread on this board and this guy is just skewering some very…particularly strange notions James White posits from time to time.

What are your thoughts?

>>257490

Around the 29:03 mark he delves a bit into Catholicism and Christianity and I think this is quite an issue. Simply the concept that It doesn't matter what "Christian" church you go to is very wrong considering the poison of false brothers and crooked doctrine out there.

But that subject is for another thread.

He gets back on topic at 31:10 with a very good point.

>>257490

He goes off topic again about fifteen minutes later, then gives us some actually good talk again with 52:07 regarding the concept of "Muslim friends".

52:07 - 57:50 Is actually very interesting information and illustrates his point well.

58:01 onward is actually textually incorrect biblically, as we can befriend unbelievers but not take them for our brothers. We cannot take Judaists, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc. as our brothers and fellowship with them as fellow believers. We also cannot retain friends whose sinful habits and beliefs will rub off on us like being friends with an addict or someone to continually tempts us into sin.

Anyway, it goes on from there, but really the video was worth posting for the first 30min half hour of it, or at least I thought it was interesting.

It shows that we need to consider what we say very closely and never to overreach in defense of a false doctrine.

In defense of a people? As in "not every Muslim is some lunatic rapist killer"? Absolutely!

But in defense of a doctrine? No.

Not unless someone is blatantly falsifying evidence even if it's supposedly in our favor. Truth must be held as truth, after all.

>>257508

And to close off, 1:21:17-1:30:12 has some information regarding the Kaaba which is pretty noteworthy. That's all.

>>257490

So in short:

First 28min

52:07 - 57:50

1:21:17 - 1:30:12

Alright everyone! It's almost finished; the new MEGA link I will be posting will contain the same Vs Christianity archives as the last link, but this time it will have a whole new surprise as well, a gift of love from myself to all of you who have shared with me in these threads thus far.

stupid premise of thread. muslims already think we christians are muslims.

>>258701

wat

No, seriously, what are you talking about?

>>258721

Qur'an 3:110-112 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)

Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind enjoining what is right forbidding what is wrong and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith it were best for them; among them are some who have faith but most of them are perverted transgressors.

They will do you no harm barring a trifling annoyance; if they come out to fight you they will show you their backs and no help shall they get.

>>258780

Very interesting citation, anon, but I may need help in understanding how this correlates to Muslims believing Christians are Muslims by another name.

I do know of one theological story where all mankind who is not Muslims are considered apostate, though. Something about Allah rubbing Adam's back and from it was born all peoples who then attested to the shahada (only Allah etc.) and so anyone who is not Muslim is to be treated as an apostate, though I don't know how far reaching this concept goes in Islam or how widely believed it is.

>>258788

people of the book who have faith are muslims. it is a fact.

You mean Islam vs Catholicism.

Christians do not kill, murder or act like savages.

>>258806

Anon please read more than the title: >>218609

>>258790

"People of the Book" is a reference to Christians and Jews, I believe.

CAIR, Islam, and Jihad

Why do we have this thing in the country??

>>233672

Um, there's a difference between condoning violence and mentioning violence.

Expert level statistics here guise XD

>>259823

Some people just don't figure that basic fact out, sadly.

What's even sadder is that most know the difference and push along anyway for their agenda.

>>259829

Thanks and God bless you, brother! I hope this helps

Mecca vs. Medina Islam: a brief of it and info – http://www.equip.org/broadcast/rise-islam-qa/

>>259861

Thanks for this! I'll give it a read

Act NOW to Help Stop the Christian Genocide in the Middle East

CALL your State Rep. and demand that they support and pass 'House Resolution 75 to declare the vicious actions of ISIS as officially war crimes and genocide

Find your state rep. and call and mail them:

CONTACT CONGRESS

http://www.contactingthecongress.org/

Ruth Johnson Secretary of State Michigan

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,3269,7-127--25634--,00.html

Twitters for Secretary of State John Kerry and Obama

https://twitter.com/johnkerry

https://twitter.com/BarackObama

WE HAVE UNTIL THE 16th TO PUSH FOR THIS AND HELP STOP THE GENOCIDE!!

>>260030

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-concurrent-resolution/75

Please do your bit with House Resolution 75!

Fact-Checking "10 Lies You Were Told about Islam" (Part One)

>talking to muslim qt in converting

>send her this to try explain how the covenants work, because she doesn't really understand it

>she got really triggered and has stopped talking to me for a while now because it has a depiction of God

careful what you do lads

>>260881

Very well said, and very important to note as well, mate.

>>260881

Yeah, much like Protestants they are iconoclastic. However they are much more hardcore then us. They even get triggered at pictures of Jesus.

Before Mohamed came along the Saracanes belonged to a non-trinitarian Christian sect called Ebionites. They were pretty hardcore concerning their interpretation of the second commandment.

Oddly I've known a couple of sand people go seventh day Adventist (Kinda like a kosher Baptist who thinks he is an adopted Messianic Jew) I know you may not like them, but that is MUCH better than muslim.

>>260902

>I know you may not like them, but that is MUCH better than muslim.

Much better isn't good enough. We are in this not to merely persuade Muslims away from Islam but to bring them the true light of Christ.

False doctrine of any kind is simply not good enough.

>Before Mohamed came along the Saracanes belonged to a non-trinitarian Christian sect called Ebionites. They were pretty hardcore concerning their interpretation of the second commandment.

Thanks for the new info! I didn't know this before. Very interesting, and disturbing

>>260881

ok update, she started talking to me again. she's now explaining to me how she literally believes in witches, sorcery etc. and believes that her cousin is the target of magic.

I think I'll put this in the "too hard" basket.

>>260881

Looking through this, it's actually not half bad.

Two main issues are

>God the Father being represented physically, let alone as a stereotypical old man with white beard etc.

>That image of God the Father morphing into Jesus then shaking His hand.

Since they had God the Father shaking Christ's hand it's clear the two are separate, but that visual cue can cause far more confusion than good. Jesus is the Son, separate from the Father in person yet One with the Father in being and nature (along with the Holy Spirit, who is also separate from the Father and Son but united as One with both in being and nature).

Refer back to >>242311 and >>247137 and >>247139

That aside, the video is very good and quite helpful. It's a shame your Muslim acquaintance could not tolerate the faults for the wonderful message it conveyed.

>>260030

The Granada War - Episode 1: The Dream of Queen Isabel, 1481

Jihad Returns to Belgium (David Wood)

A response to the recent terror attack on Belgium.

A friend of mine spoke to me about suspecting, that is, both of us considered the idea that ISIS is attacking first France, then Belgium, and will continue in their strikes neighboring coutnries.

That being either Spain or Germany being the next likely targets if ISIS continues on this projected journey of jihadist major massacres.

Please be careful, brothers and sisters.

Pray for those who suffer, especially our family in Christ

Minister to Muslims

Rebuke Islam

Trust in the Lord God Almighty, holding fast to our Hero King Jesus Christ