/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

As I've said, we've gone over a LOT of sociopolitical and theological aspects of Judaism in our last threads and I don't want to reiterate all of it and fill up this thread with preexisting information.

PLEASE FOLLOW ARCHIVE LINKS IN OP FOR MORE DETAILS *AND FOR THE TESTIMONIES OF OUR JEW BROTHERS IN CHRIST AND HOW THEY TURNED TO HIM FROM DARKNESS*

That being said, I will begin with just recapping the last few points of the previous thread where we were learning about the abomination of Kabbalah and the other supposedly "holy book" known as the "Holy Zohar".

But first: Marching to Zion

Disclaimer: This video only just begins to scratch the surface of the massive structure of Judaism but it's what got a lot of posters interested in this subject. While I wholeheartedly endorse the video for an introduction into the theological and sociopolitical aspects of Judaism, zionism, and its relation to zionist evangelicalism, I far more endorse these Vs Christianity threads to be a much greater source of learning and information because

1. MUCH MORE research has been placed into the subject theologically and historically

2. Jews, both our beloved Jew brothers in Christ and a couple Jews who are Judaists (followers of Judaism) have given their first-hand accounts and their own personal studies to these threads ( especially the two Jews, one in Israel and the other in America, who gave their amazing testimonies of how they came to Christ Jesus our Lord )

3. These threads are far more diverse and balanced than this video, which, while being very good as an introduction, simply pales in comparison to the realities of the multifaceted nature of Judaism

also 4. I no longer endorse Pastor Anderson as a good teacher since I have come to find he is incredibly stubborn on aspects where he refuses to see reason. His sermon on mental health was a preposterously dangerous horror to sit through for even a minute (apart from other nonsense he's spewed which, upon further revelation of Scripture, simply is unbiblical; though not everything he preaches on is bad he's just unstable in his teaching in certain areas).

And second:

IS JESUS THE JEWISH MESSIAH? Dr. Michael Brown vs. Rabbi Immanuel Schochet

Being a Jew with a deep background and study in Hebrew and Jewish studies, Dr. Michael Brown is a noted theologian for Christ who primarily debates Judaists.

__I would please ask all who read this to consider such a man and the likes of James White, David Wood, Nabeel Qureshi, etc. before reverting back to Anderson for study on God's Scripture. If you need a "Daily Bread" sort of study for personal use you can buy "My Utmost for His Highest", a classic day-by-day devotional study of crucial elements for the believer's path in Christ.

Another video from Dr. Michael Brown which is amazing is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8fcW6NsN0w

titled DEBATE: Orthodox Rabbi David Blumofe Vs. Messianic Rabbi Dr. Michael Brown

Dr. Brown is very great and seems to have a wonderful heart, though he indeed still has some elements of the sociopolitical struggle most Jews endure with this world (for ex. his book "Our Hands are Stained With Blood" is ridiculous and he doesn't seem to have any notion of the usury of Zionist elite, certain aspects of the "Holocaust", the evils of the illegitimate Israel, the near monopoly of Slavic slaves by Jewish masters for hundreds of years, etc. HOWEVER he does have a firm grasp on the nature of Judaism, the gross deviancy of this world's degeneracy, and has written such interesting books as "Outlasting the Gay Revolution", "Can You Be Gay and Christian?", "The Real Kosher Jesus", etc. ) Ultimately he is only human so do not look to him as THE great teacher, just like anyone else, for there is only ONE such teacher: Christ Jesus.

That said, please watch this debate if you still question the validity of Dr. Brown being posted in these threads. I promise you will be stunned both at his clear defense of the Lord against abomination and at the very typical "rebuttal" the rabbi repeatedly gives, especially at the end…

Judaism & Racial Supremacy/Slavery

I won't repost the entirety of the rebuttal information given in the final post of the last thread (which can be found in the third archive link of the OP WHICH I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU CLICK AND READ FOR INFORMATION REGARDING OTHER RABBINICAL FALSE DOCTRINE AND THE "MUST BE 40YRS OLD TO LEARN MORE" ASPECT OF JUDAISM ) but I will post this video regarding a subject zionists adore and most Judaists either don't know about or genuinely believe and try to hide: Jewish supremacy

Yeah. No joke. It's part of the theology*–slaves included!

Now, continuing from the theological and sociopolitical shackles against the Jews from their rabbis and false doctrine.

Religious Jews are asked about the Talmud

Here we have the "Ask Project" regarding the Talmud's Jewish-supremacy racism.

It's a very interesting video so please give this a watch as you will learn quite a bit from very natural Judaists.

*mostly part of the theology, since again, not all Jews believe this and there seems to be rabbis who don't teach it, yet like it or not, those are in the minority.

I want to sort through the book on the Zohar soon, the pdf found in the link here:

files.kabbalahmedia.info/files/eng_t_ml-sefer-zohar.pdf

I would like it if some of you also helped in this regard. Just sift through some portions, whatever you decide to read, and post here what you found, or rather what struck you most regarding this.

How much do any of you know already about Judaism? Do you have a local synogogue you can go to?

If you can, why not ask a local rabbi some questions regarding a few things you may have heard here, questions specifically asked not to mock or prod but in sincerity and harmlessness.

It would be nice to ask a few questions and post the responses here so we can discuss them together.

>>227679

>We must remember that the Torah speaks only of the spiritual worlds and their laws, which have no obvious consequences in our world. There is a cause-and-effect connection: whatever occurs in our world is a result of a Higher cause, but in no way is it vice versa, i.e., whatever is described in the Upper World does not necessarily need to manifest in ours. To consider the Torah a narrative about our world relegates the Torah of the world of Atzilut, the Creator’s holy names, the Creator’s Light, to the lowest level of creation, which is strictly forbidden: “Do not make an idol for yourself.”

It's on the grey highlighted paragraph on page 291 on that pdf.

All I did was looking for the word 'kill' and I stumbled upon that.

>All the worlds, forces, and everything that was ever created exists within man. And these are our spiritual forces, by which we can attain the goal of creation.

Page 416, looking for 'worlds.'

>>228200

That first excerpt almost sounds like it would have a point if it didn't begin with "the Torah speaks only of the spiritual worlds and their laws, which have no obvious consequences in our world".

Seriously? It's like they never read the Torah.

But that second excerpt…

>All the worlds, forces, and everything that was ever created exists within man. And these are our spiritual forces, by which we can attain the goal of creation.

>everything that was ever created exists within man.

>worlds

>forces

>within man

>our spiritual forces

>we can attain the goal of creation.

Well this sounds almost like the false doctrine of the world, and even vividly like Satanism.

We need to look deeper into this. How does this align with what Scripture teaches? How can such an incredible focus on the supposed power hidden within the self ever run on the path of "we are incapable of anything, not even a single righteous act, if we are apart from God"?

Or is it implying that to stand with God means we too somehow harbor the same forces as Him, if not a lesser copy? And what's with the "goal of creation"?

Oh, very good find, anon! Nice! Let's look deeper into this.

>>228214

Oh, here it is

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23877/Default.aspx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0DTT3u2JZ8

It was a very loud news in it's time. What I remembered is that he was a very well versed expert at Kaballah, in fact best of his time.

>>228208

>How does this align with what Scripture teaches?

By throwing it out of the window.

>Or is it implying that to stand with God means we too somehow harbor the same forces as Him, if not a lesser copy?

Page 41:

As its object of study, Kabbalah takes the only creation, the only thing that

exists besides the Creator—man’s self, or “I,” and researches it. This science breaks

down the self into parts, explains the structure and properties of each part, and

the purpose of its creation. Kabbalah explains how every part of man’s self, called

“the soul,” can be changed so that one would reach the goal of creation, the state

desired by both the Creator and man himself, provided he realizes it.

Page 42:

After being born in our world, one is obliged to change his heart from

egoistic to altruistic, while living in this world. This is the purpose of his life,

the reason behind his appearance in this world, and it is the goal of all creation.

A complete replacement of egoistic desires with altruistic ones is called “the

End of Correction.” Every individual and all of humanity must attain it in this

world together. Until one achieves this, he will continue to be born into this

world. The Torah and all the prophets speak exclusively of this. The method of

correction is called “Kabbalah.”

[Only Kabbalah can save you!?]

Page 43:

Hence, an individual in our world has no chance of transcending the

boundaries of this world on his own. That is why we were given the Torah

and its most effective part, Kabbalah—to help man acquire the desires of the

spiritual worlds.

In order to create man in remoteness to Himself, so that man would realize

his insignificance and would come independently to the desire to ascend, the

Creator created all creation as degrees descending from Him. The Creator’s

Light descended along these degrees, and at the lowest degree, created our world

and man in it. Having realized his insignificance and wishing to ascend to the

Creator, man (to the extent that he wishes to approach the Creator) ascends

along the same degrees by which his initial descent took place.

Page 326:

The angels replied: “What is man, that You are mindful of him?” (Tehilim,

8:5), meaning what are the properties of this man that You so wish to create? He

replied to them: “This man will be similar to Me and his wisdom will surpass

yours, for the human soul includes all the angels and Supernal Degrees, just as

his body includes all the creatures of this world.”

Therefore, at the moment of creation of man’s soul, the Creator summoned

all the Supernal angels, so they would pass all of their properties and forces

to man’s soul. It is therefore written: “Let us make man in our image, in our

likeness,” meaning that man’s “image and likeness” includes all of the properties

of all the angels.

Page 327:

But the angels’ question should be interpreted as follows: “What kind of a

creature is this man and what is his nature? How shall we benefit from passing

(including) our properties in him?” The Creator replied to this: “This man

will be similar to Me and his wisdom will surpass yours.” In other words, the

Creator thus promised them that man will embrace all of their qualities (the

properties of Tzelem), and that he will be wiser than them. However, because of

their connection to him, they will also benefit from his great attainments and

acquire everything that they presently lack.

This is because the human soul includes all the spiritual degrees and all the

utmost properties of all the angels. And just as his body includes all the materials

and creatures of our world with all of their properties, so was the Creator’s wish

that his soul would absorb the whole of creation within it.

It is written in the Torah: “Yaakov and Israel shall be told of the Creator’s

works (Bamidbar, 23:23).” The sages have said that in the future the angels will

ask Israel for things that they do not know themselves, for Israel’s attainments

will be beyond that of the angels. Hence, all the angels took part in the creation

of man and integrated all their properties within him.

>>228214

>feminity of God (in Christianity - Holy Spirit was said to be of such by early Church fathers I recall)

It's called historical revisionism.

The Greek word "Pneuma" is neuter.

And let us not forget Gen 18:2 where Abraham meets Elohim appearing as 3 men, as in male men. Justin Martyr clearly understood them as the three persons of the Godhead, and he's one of the earliest.

Have to leave for a few hours but I'll be back to check out what you've found and brought up

>>228214

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Cabala

I never heard of this before. What is this lunacy?

>I was talking with a Jew (athiest) about it. He dismissed is as nothing more than a "fanfiction". We were talking about Shekhinah and feminity of God (in Christianity - Holy Spirit was said to be of such by early Church fathers I recall)

I never heard of this and doubt it highly as God only referred to as a He when given the choice to utilize masculine or feminine pronouns/attributes. Unless you're confusing it with the notion of what would later become Mariam Worship.

>I know Hekhalot-Merkabah mysticism influenced early Christian mystics, but what about Kaballah? Outside of what I linked, I don't know any one examples save maybe for Swedenborg

Woah, slow down, mate! I think you're a bit ahead of the curve here as I have little idea what you're talking about. Please tell us what you know regarding all this and how you came to know it.

Also, I've embedded the video you linked to here >>228215

Man was mentioned in the first thread so it's nice to see this strange and interesting incident mentioned again.

>>228219

>>How does this align with what Scripture teaches?

>By throwing it out of the window.

Precisely, anon.

Anything new?

Someone keeps flooding the board with re-pasta threads and I want to make sure these threads aren't disappeared over night (again).

>>228886

>Therefore, at the moment of creation of man’s soul, the Creator summoned all the Supernal angels, so they would pass all of their properties and forces to man’s soul. It is therefore written: “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,” meaning that man’s “image and likeness” includes all of the properties of all the angels.

>This is utterly absent from Scripture and completely the writer's injection of their own imagination. It's not rooted in anything written in Scripture!

It's because Elohim is interpreted in Judaism as being God + the angels. This also ties in with Gen 18:2.

I wonder how old this idea truly is, because it sounds exactly like revisionist "Man is not the image of God, he's the image of the angels! Of course the Jews always believed it!" material to deny the possibility of Christ's incarnation, that Christ is the new Adam, etc.

I mean, should I meet 3 heavenly men like Abraham again in Gen 18:2, according to Judaism's interpretation, I'm supposed to think they're 3 angels AND at the same time that I am allowed to address them as "God". Or "God + family." Wouldn't that make me (and Abraham) a blasphemer? And an idolater, even. Come on, it makes no sense.

>>229683

The bottom line is, while it's supposed to include both, the interpretation of Elohim flip-flops constantly between "it's God" and "it's not God, it's only the angels."

Is anyone willing to turn these entire threads into one pdf file? Without the duplicate posts of course.

>>229707

>Is anyone willing to turn these entire threads into one pdf file? Without the duplicate posts of course.

I've compiled everything of the Vs Christianity threads thus far into a Zip folder on Mega. It contains all of the previous threads for both Islam Vs and Judaism Vs. It has images, webMs, resources, the Zohar PDF, and Screengrabs of every previous thread in full (each thread that is Screengrabbed as an image is on archive.org and those archive links are up to date as of your post). There are also Screengrabs of web articles and pages that are under "Recources" along with the other images, though since some of those articles no longer exist (like wikiIslam) they do not have archive links.

Here is the mega link that you can download for yourself:

https://mega.nz/#!ecZCHKhR

>>229683

>I wonder how old this idea truly is, because it sounds exactly like revisionist "Man is not the image of God, he's the image of the angels! Of course the Jews always believed it!" material to deny the possibility of Christ's incarnation, that Christ is the new Adam, etc.

What a heinous heresy! I can't get over this!

And considering this is so explicitly written in a book now considered "holy", a book that no one even considered sent by God when it first appeared, leaves me near dumbstruck.

And you make a very good point regarding Abraham, mate, but that would follow from this train of cancerous thought that man was created, even partially, in the image of angels. That would mean that on a practical level we owe our being not only to God but to the angels, and that the angels would eternally be above us alongside God, and, far worse than all of that, it speaks to angels sharing in God's glory on the level of Creator. This is both disgusting and grossly against everything taught in Scripture, not to mention how it's refuted even by the mouths of the angels themselves who would always deflect praise given to them (upon their appearance) to the One to whom such praise is deserved, the one and only Creator God Almighty.

>>229686

>The bottom line is, while it's supposed to include both, the interpretation of Elohim flip-flops constantly between "it's God" and "it's not God, it's only the angels."

Inconsistency is the reflection of corruption. This is essentially theological double-think.

But then again, this is what happens when rabbinical writings and tradition take precedence over the very Scripture God Himself revealed in truth.

I wonder if there is anything regarding this subject >>227433 in Kabbalah or especially this Zohar.

>>229822

Thanks guy.

>>229822

Dude, why is there a password? What's the password?

>>230036

There's a password?

Give me a second.

>>229822

>>230036

Sorry about that. This should work:

https://mega.nz/#!ecZCHKhR!zgcXy0N_E462hEOTUS0cLboNm0wPkGlvQfBjkrUBCck

>>230042

great, thanks so much fam.

>>230068

You're welcome bruv

I'm going to give the book on the Zohar a look over again later on after I come back. We've made some interesting discoveries thanks to >>228200 so let's keep the momentum up!

I'm sorry I haven't gotten around to reading or posting from the Zohar again. Dealing with more than a few things.

However, I'm not bumping empty handed.

I decided that our detective work into the heart of Kabbalah could do with another perspective, perhaps in the least to give us some reason as to why anyone would follow this let alone defend it (aside from just doing so because their rabbis said to).

Here is a presentation I thought could be interesting. I haven't watched the whole thing but the title and mention of the Zohar's origin right at the beginning gave me the impression this will be good to listen to for added perspective.

Zohar and Kabbalah - Daniel Matt

The Allen and Joan Bildner Center for the Study of Jewish Life present Daniel Matt speaking about The Zohar and Kabbalah.

>>231206

This is quite interesting and HORRIBLY BLASPHEMOUS! all around.

There's a good history refresher regarding the Zohar starting at 6:12

ALERT! VATICAN PROCLAIMS THERE IS NO NEED TO MISSION AND CONVERT JEWS TO JESUS CHRIST!

I HAVE to post this and cover this subject since it is in direct opposition to the whole reason of these threads!

Here we have a leading theologian Dr. James White reviewing the document piece by piece known as

Commission for Religious Relations for the Jews: the Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable

The whole video is important, but especially we find the direct anti-missionary statement at 36:00 (36min) into the video

A brief excerpt from another site:

>VATICAN CITY—The Vatican released a document Thursday stating with unprecedented clarity that the Catholic Church doesn't seek the conversion of the Jews, addressing what has historically been one of the greatest points of tension between the two communities.

>“The Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards the Jews,” said the document, written by a panel of Catholic…

This horrific cancer seeks to destroy all that has ever been and is, and by proxy not only demonizes the purpose of our research here but also tosses away that which helped so many of our Jew brothers and sisters in Christ who came to our Lord Jesus by promoting the notion that no Jew (conflating Jew and Judaist (one of Judaism) as well, like those who place such shackles upon Jews and claim to leave Judaism is to no longer be a Jew) needs to abandon Judaism for the sanctuary that is Christ Jesus!

I AM BESIDE MYSELF IN RAGE! How DARE they? How DARE these heretics hurl down such a document which would persuade Jews away from salvation and into eternal hellfire just for political convenience?!

Any thoughts?

>>231994

Here is the document, it would seem.

Taken from another thread:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

The Jewish Annotated New Testament is like a study Bible, but featuring only the NT and with commentary from non-Messianic Judaists. In case you wanted to know what they think of Christianity's very own Scripture, you can get it here:

khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/annot_nt.pdf

It uses the NRSV text, and is basically the NT companion to the Jewish Study Bible, which only has the OT.

>>232177

On the latest Vatican BS? I mad. As in, "I want to see how much of Pastor Anderson's reaction will match mine" kind of mad.

Forget out threads, this kind of reasoning completely renders null and void the need of Gospel of Matthew, written primarily for a Jewish audience, the Epistle to the Hebrews, etc.

I even posted here the video of a Jew who converted from Judaism to Catholicism, to become a Christian and a priest. Now I'm told the man didn't need Jesus, the Church or Trinitarianism in the first place, and he was saved all along.

Now I really want to know how many in the Catholic clergy wants me to believe that only the Gentiles need Jesus. I mean even the Muslims believe Jesus to be the Messiah of the Jews, for crying out loud.

Do they want me to convert to Judaism or something? Unbelievable.

>>232517

>The Jewish Annotated New Testament is like a study Bible, but featuring only the NT and with commentary from non-Messianic Judaists. In case you wanted to know what they think of Christianity's very own Scripture, you can get it here:

khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/annot_nt.pdf

Very interesting, mate! I'll look into this.

And while I am very much not one to turn to Anderson on much of anything anymore for a number of reasons (aside from the video earlier), I completely agree with what you said all around!

>Forget our threads, this kind of reasoning completely renders null and void the need of Gospel of Matthew, written primarily for a Jewish audience, the Epistle to the Hebrews, etc.

Indeed! It is a strange and confused thing, and quite an abominable thing, they presented in that document. Unbelievable is entirely correct.

I can't fathom what schizophrenic lens through which they view Scripture that could have produced such a horrible affront to the saints' calling by God Himself. Next they'll start saying that Christians must be circumcised in the flesh in order to be true followers of Christ.

>>232527

Technically I'm not a fan of Anderson's theology either, but I dare say this kind of stuff requires some pulpit kicking.

>I can't fathom what schizophrenic lens through which they view Scripture that could have produced such a horrible affront to the saints' calling by God Himself.

The explanation is simple:

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/12/10/orthodox_rabbis_issue_groundbreaking_statement_on_christians/1193458

So they published a document targeted at the entire Church made of hundreds of millions, in exchange for a few positive words on Christianity endorsed by a grand total of 25 rabbis. I thought there were more in Israel. Some of the statements aren't even that groundbreaking either, if you see that the Messiah they're still waiting in Judaism is supposed to bring salvation also to Gentiles…

It also has the full text of the rabbinic statement:

>We appreciate the Church’s affirmation of Israel’s unique place in sacred history and the ultimate world redemption

>[Jesus] removed idols from the nations and obligated them in the seven commandments of Noah so that they would not behave like animals of the field, and instilled them firmly with moral traits

>so that all humanity will call on His name and abominations will be removed from the earth

>without any fear that this will be exploited for missionary purposes

What does the Jewish Week say on this?

https://archive.is/ooEPd

First the page is titled "Modern Orthodox Leaders", then you read:

>However, Rabbi Sandmel cautioned, “We should remember that this statement represents the views of those rabbis who signed it, not Orthodoxy as a whole.”

And:

>“We’re in the middle of a religious war” against Muslim extremists, seeking Christian “partners,” Rabbi Riskin said in a telephone interview.

Now THAT is the reason there's so much interfaith dialogue going on…

Now these "prominent" "orthodox" rabbis are led by a modern orthodox:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Riskin

A co-founder of a women's seminar, and

>Riskin issued a challenge in Israel's High Court to the laws which prevented women from serving as Toanot - advocates in the Rabbinic Courts

not exactly the first thing that comes to mind when you read orthodox, is it? The man's quite the liberal, and so is this modern "orthodoxy" thing.

In the page of the CJCUC, we read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Jewish-Christian_Understanding_and_Cooperation

>Most of the Christian visitors to Efrat, those who came to hear and learn, were Evangelicals. He formed relations with Rev. Robert Stearns of Eagles' Wings and with Pastor John Hagee, who struck Riskin as an impressive man with a clear voice about his love for the Jewish nation. When Riskin confronted Hagee with the question about his love for the Jewish nation, "Do you love us because you want to convert us?" Hagee replied, "I love you because of Genesis 12:3 when the Lord says to Abraham, 'I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you'. I want to be blessed and not cursed, Rabbi".

In which we meet again John Hagee, the ultimate "good goy."

>>232553

Good detective work, anon. Ultimately these abominations tread on Scripture and sound doctrine for political alliances, as if there needed to be any like this.

To corrupt the Word of God in documentation and teaching merely for political machinations, even if it's born from a fear of "divided we fall" against these utterly grotesque jihadis…

What ever happened to faith in the Lord's sovereignty? What happened to trusting in Him and not in either man or the sword? In the very least, what happened to having a fear of God?

None of these men fear God, let alone love Him, because this disgusting turn of events would never have taken place.

>>232553

>In which we meet again John Hagee, the ultimate "good goy."

So I see. You know, I'm really getting sick of the rotted fruits of these bad trees known as zionist evangelicals.

/!\ WARNING: EVERY UNCONVERTED JEW WILL ONE DAY BECOME AN ATHEIST!

>>232570

What makes you say this? You mean in relation to what we've been learning about regarding Jewish Mysticism the Kabbalah the Zohar or something else?

>>232571

No, about the Atheist Pope statement that we must not try to convert Jews

>>232623

>So it's literally reaffirming Vatican II where salvation still only comes through Christ.

In §36 the document states:

>That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery.

They affirm the salvation of the Jews without Christ.

>Seriously, can these strawman attacks against the Church stop anytime soon?

Sure, when our clergy stops being infiltrated by men made of straw.

Executive Bible Editor @ Oxford, who worked on the Jewish Study Bible, talks differences between Christianity and Judaism (in the latter half of this page):

https://archive.is/lhynC

>I think one ongoing form of influence is in helping Christians to understand how the Bible of the synagogue is complete in itself, and not a prologue to something that came later.

>Three theological areas stand out to me in which Christian and Jewish thought have historically diverged:

> Trinitarian conceptions of God.

> The doctrine of the incarnation (seeing Jesus of Nazareth not simply as messiah but also as God in human form.)

> A sacramental approach to creation, in which the material world is seen as a vehicle for conveying spiritual reality (a vague definition, but we’ll have to leave it at that.)

>In the Hebrew Bible, God is one, but this God has different aspects – kavod (weight/glory; see Exodus 24:16-17), davar (word/utterance; see Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 33:6), ruach (breath/spirit; see Genesis 1:2), and chokhmah (wisdom; see Proverbs 3:19). In various texts, these aspects seem to take on a life of their own. Of course, this is very much constrained by the countervailing pressure to maintain God’s one-ness or unity, but nonetheless, the variety of these “manifestations” is there.

>I am aware now, as I was not before I began to learn about Judaism in some depth, that “messiah/mashiach” has a different meaning for Jews and Christians. Many Christians think that there is only one messiah, and the difference between Judaism and Christianity is a disagreement about whether Jesus of Nazareth is that messiah. It comes as new information to Christians that, in Jewish interpretation, “messiah/annointed” can apply to different persons at different times.

>Likewise, the phrase “son of God” has a meaning in Judaism (as a royal title; see Psalm 2:7). Interestingly, this is echoed in the gospel of John (1:49), the most Christological of the gospels, when Nathanael says to Jesus, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Christian definitions of “Son of God” are much more concerned with the essence of Jesus’ nature. Once again, I am not saying that this is anything like what Judaism teaches, but rather that the concepts lying within the Hebrew Bible are an energizing source of meaning for Christians in coming to a deeper understanding of their own beliefs.

>I would heartily recommend the NJPS Tanakh translation to Christian readers to help them overcome the stereotypical idea of Judaism as a “religion of law,” since Tanakh clearly favors translating “torah” as “teaching” rather than, as in most Christian Bibles, as “law.”

>I think that Christians in general tend to spiritualize more than Jews do. The whole tradition, prominent among Orthodox Christians, of seeing the Conquest narrative in the Book of Joshua as an account of the individual soul’s triumph over sin is one example. Another is in the view of Jerusalem. Although many Christians have of course traveled to Israel and have walked in Jerusalem, it is nevertheless interesting to me that a Christian congregation would see Jerusalem as by and large a synonym for “heaven.” When a Christian congregation sings hymns such as “Jerusalem the Golden” or “Jerusalem, my happy home,” they are not thinking of the physical city itself, but of life with God in the hereafter. Even Christian musical settings of Psalms, such as Ps 122, emphasize the spiritual nature of Jerusalem. I suspect that it is very different in synagogue worship.

>I also think that many Christians grant to the Bible an authority that is definitive for their faith and becomes a controlling presence, despite the fact that the Bible is not entirely consistent within itself. Among Jews, I see that there is much more willingness to engage with the text and even use it to argue against God as part of the interpretive tradition. See the account in the Talmud (b. Baba Metzia 59b) where the assembled rabbis argue a point against the voice from heaven, and God later remarks to Elijah, “My sons have won against me.”

>>232839

The Baba Metzia thingy I will now quote:

On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument, 3 but they did not accept them. Said he to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let this carob-tree prove it!’ Thereupon the carob-tree was torn a hundred cubits out of its place — others affirm, four hundred cubits. ‘No proof can be brought from a carob-tree,’ they retorted. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with

me, let the stream of water prove it!’ Whereupon the stream of water flowed backwards — ‘No proof can be brought from a stream of water,’ they rejoined. Again he urged: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let the walls of the schoolhouse prove it,’ whereupon the walls inclined to fall. But R. Joshua rebuked them, saying: ‘When scholars are engaged in a halachic dispute, what have ye to interfere?’

Hence they did not fall, in honour of R. Joshua, nor did they resume the upright, in honour of R.

Eliezer; and they are still standing thus inclined. Again he said to them: ‘If the halachah agrees with me, let it be proved from Heaven!’ Whereupon a Heavenly Voice cried out: ‘Why do ye dispute with R. Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the halachah agrees with him!’ But R. Joshua arose and exclaimed: ‘It is not in heaven.’ 4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had

already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because Thou hast long since written in the Torah at Mount Sinai, After the majority must one incline. 5

R. Nathan met Elijah 6 and asked him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do in that hour? — He laughed [with joy], he replied, saying, ‘My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me.’ It was said: On that day all objects which R. Eliezer had declared clean were brought and burnt in fire. 7 Then they took a vote and excommunicated him. 8

(3) Lit., ‘all the arguments in the world’.

(4) Deut. XXX,12. [It is not in the heavens, that you should say, "Who among us can go up to the heavens and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?"]

(5) Ex. XXIII,2; [You shall neither side with the mighty to do wrong – you shall not give perverse testimony in a dispute so as to pervert it in favor of the mighty – ] though the story is told in a legendary form, this is a remarkable assertion of the independence of

human reasoning.

(6) It was believed that Elijah, who had never died, often appeared to the Rabbis.

(7) As unclean.

(8) Lit., ‘blessed him,’ a euphemism for excommunication.

>>232844

>>232839

To argue with the Lord God and "win"… Truly the Rabbis and their Talmud are disgustingly blasphemous vipers.

Polite sage because I have nothing of value to add to the conversation. I merely wished to comment on this sacrilegious text.

>>232844

You are pumping wonderfully potent blood into these threads, mate! God bless you! And as a matter of fact, the Baba Metzia was brought up in the first thread by our beloved Jew brother in Christ, the first to post in the thread (the other, a new convert in Israel, I have yet to hear back from…).

According to what he said:

>You are correct, the idea is that Jews are the keepers of the Torah, which they believe constitutes the literal Hebrew letters God spoke to create the universe. Since they keep, preserve, and interpret the Law, they have no need for heavenly consul.

>It should be noted that while the Talmud can and should be used to point out issues with rabbinical Judaism, it's full of "minority" opinions and less religious Jews have no allegiance to the oral law. That said, I do think that this particular idea is largely accepted, even if some would deny it.

>If you care to do some reading from a Jewish source:

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/btl/The-Snake-Oven.html

It's interesting to see it come again. Thanks for posting it, mate!

>>233067

No need to sage even in that case, mate.

To continue quoting our brother in Christ, he stated with regards to this obvious blasphemy that:

>It's not as simple as that. There is of course a reverence owed to God, but the way Jews view the relationship between the Torah and creation means that they can justify keeping and expanding upon the Laws because God gave "them" (i.e. Ancient Israel) the Torah and no other nations.

>Think about it this way. We see Jesus as the Lawgiver. Of course the apostles bring his message through the ages on this earth, but the Lawgiver is still very much alive and sits at the judgement seat.

>Jews see Moses as the sole receiver of the Torah and thus his successors are always the last line of defense in protecting it. The Torah is, as the Jews say, "not from heaven," because it was given for the Jews.

>Do you see how seeing yourselves as the keepers of Creation can lead to such a warped understanding? And how it's so important that we see ourselves as saved by God's grace and not by our abilities to "protect" the Law? Afterall, why protect that which is kept by God Himself, Christ?

You can find more of his posts in the first archive.org link in the OP, ctrl+F ID: 259ffb

>>232844

>>233135

Found a great video from theologian Dr. Michael Brown on this exact subject, in fact.

>>233150

Well in the end this actually explains why so many Jews work as lawyers, bankers, and tax accountants. Spending your entire life trying to find every single loophole, or in the majority of cases like this CREATE a loophole, in the word of God and then further twisting it for your own means would prepare you for such vocations.

>>233460

It does rather make you wonder, doesn't it?

Will post more later on what was said here.

>>232839

>I also think that many Christians grant to the Bible an authority that is definitive for their faith and becomes a controlling presence, despite the fact that the Bible is not entirely consistent within itself.

THIS IS WHERE THE RIDE ENDS FOR THIS CLOWN! Funny how he spoke about "Judaism stereotypes" yet regurgitates the same stereotyping rhetoric typical of atheism.

Consider this statement, and then consider his previous suggestion:

>I would heartily recommend the NJPS Tanakh translation to Christian readers

NOPE

Good find, though, anon. This Oxford "Bible Editor" is a living cancer. I will pray that he does not lead others astray and that God has enough mercy on him to silence him and bring him to repentance in order to glorify God rather than spew against Him.

>>231994

>People still shitposting a document that isn't a doctrine like it's some new dogma

>>228773

was gonna post about this

surprised you guys don't talk about this guy

also look into the kabbalah death curse placed on ariel sharon

>>234548

>>234581

Just a brief divergence into the [illegitimate] Israel and further evidence on how we can know (unlike our favorite mustachioed theologian and good help Dr. Michael Brown) that its recreation was not of God for the Jews:

UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza

Just thought this would be very interesting to add since we touched on the politics by peeking into the strange "ultra-death curse" in Kabbalah and that apparent villain Ariel Sharon.

>>234583

Just for posterity, and also since we're already here on political touches, here is what a noted (and yet severely anti-Christian and thus antichrist) Judaist philosopher and scholar Yeshayau Leibowitz had to say regarding Israel.

Prof. Leibowitz: There are Judeo-Nazis. Israel Represents the Darkness of a State Body

Clearly, this notion of "Israel = Nazi" is not at all new and not merely tied to the nation's more recent activities. Make no mistake: the Israel we see today is not the Israel we read of in Scripture, the one established by God Himself for His glory.

I didn't want to say this because it sounds off to me, but I have to say that first I'm very sorry for not contributing as much to the detective work and theological discussion coming from this thread. This has been a great thread thus far and I want it to keep going, and it's because of the effort you have put in. Thank you, anons. Sincerely. Together we grow in Christ.

Second, I've been incredibly ill to my stomach for over a week straight with little rest, constantly afraid of an intense pain or worse arising. Considering this is Christmas week I don't know if I will be able to get through to the doctor, or any, so I hope and ppray I can.

This is why I haven't been as active as I should be and I hope you anons don't think I have been slacking off while you all do the wonderful work you have been doing.

I genuinely thank you all and hope this ends soon so I can go back to digging alongside you for the glory of God.

God bless you all and your loved ones perfectly in Christ Jesus our Lord, our One Mediator, Redeemer and Hero King, so that you smile greatly and glorify God our Father with such bountiful smiles!

>>234985

Here's a kabbalist rabbi explaining a bit about the Zohar and how you can add or subtract to God.

Dr. Michael Brown pleas with Christians to never stop reaching out to Jews.

>>235524

Thank you for this, mate! I'll give it a look now

Anything new?

>>236651

A Judaist lecture on the Zohar, in English.

I found it useful since it's a difficult book, the concept of God is complex and foreign, and it also tells something about the Shekhinah divine presence/female god, part of this "divine couple."

The history of the Zohar is also told, it's a medieval book falsely claiming to be 1100 years older. What's bugging me is how did Judaists accept alla these doctrines and all so readily and quickly, to the point of making it their 3rd most sacred text.

Dietary Laws and Christianity

>>236797

Yes, I've come across this earlier. Thanks though, as I've still got to go through this myself. It's very useful for the thread.

Not especially about Judaism but it should help to have some equally useful advice on apologetics

"Is Israel an Evil Occupier?" Lecture by Dr. Michael Brown - Part Two

This may upset people who know as much as I do, if not more so, about Israel today.

However, considering the sincere heart of Dr. Michael Brown I think it's best that if we are to hear other side regarding the nation of Israel today, and this we must for balance and consistency in our approach to the reality of Judaism and approaching Jews of all stripes, then we should hear it from Dr. Brown.

We still have SO MUCH to discover regarding the abominable Zohar, Kabbala, Judaism and all the theological perspectives and teachings therein. We'll continue with that.

For right now, though, I would like us to take a glance at the nature of the Israel state today, now from a pro-Israel perspective.

I'm sure this will be interesting, if not frustrating in parts, yet I'm also certain that this will enlighten us to the perspective we so often (and for decent reason) shut out. Let's listen to their side of things from the mouth of a man proven worthy of at least listening to.

>>236651

From the Babylonian Talmud, Berachoth 5a:

>R. Levi b. Hama says further in the name of R. Simeon b. Lakish: What is the meaning of the verse: And I will give thee the tables of stone, and the law and the commandment, which I have written that thou mayest teach them? [Exodus 24:12] ‘Tables of stone’: these are the ten commandments; ‘the law’: this is the Pentateuch; ‘the commandment’: this is the Mishnah; ‘which I have written’: these are the Prophets and the Hagiographa; ‘that thou mayest teach them’: this is the Gemara. It teaches [us] that all these things were given to Moses on Sinai.

Well, would you look at that!

The Talmud wants you to believe Moses received the entire freaking Tanakh and Talmud, in other words, a massive collection of books written 1000-2000 years later!?

Did Moses' even know Old Aramaic?

Why do rabbis need to claim Moses got all of this shit from the future?

Why isn't "God sent it to the Juice People", or "all Scripture is God-breathed" enough?

>>237833

>Stop. Just stop.

You don't have to tell me that, you have to tell it to the heretics in the Church's hierarchy. And I don't think quoting older documents will impress them much.

hello

>>238555

Hello

>>238492

This is beyond bizarre and, once again, completely unbiblical. I can't understand this insane near-worship of Moses in Judaism. If I recall right, Elijah is another figure that is treated with a rather…unique level of adoration.

>Why isn't "God sent it to the Juice People", or "all Scripture is God-breathed" enough?

haha Well, it's likely not enough because Judaism demands that Scripture is not sufficient. It's further than just "fellowship and theological teaching augments understanding" but full-on "YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND/WILL FAIL TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE IF YOU DO NOT HEED THE SYNOGOGUE AND YOUR RABBIS!!!"

Because if Judaists read Scripture for themselves they would see a truth far apart from the lies and leaps in logic within Judaism. This is as I have seen it thus far.

lets not add too much content as it will be lost in the migration to NEXT tonight.

>>238696

Fair enough. I have everything archived anyway.

Marching to Zion has really influenced my opinion of jews. It used to be a /pol/ meme but now I actually have a real reason to dislike them, they are an enemy to christianity. Should I show it to my dad? He's a protestant, everything he has learned about christianity has been from the bible alone, he's rarely visited a church. He constantly talks about jews being the apple of God's eye and all that. He knows I don't like jews but he thinks it's because I'm a nazi or something. If I send him the link to the video the worst thing that could happen is he'll think I'm a weirdo conspiracy racist. It really doesn't help him to know the truth about jews. The likelihood of him actually changing his opinion is pretty low. I don't know if I should send him the link or just keep the knowledge to myself.

>>238735

haha Thank you, mate. To Christ be the glory.

Please keep us posted on the situation if you like!

I have a procedure tomorrow but hopefully I'll be back in good enough health to view more of this particular video here on the Zohar >>236797

And perhaps I can dig further into the abominable text like my beloved detective brothers in this thread have. haha

Tikkun Olam is a popular Jewish ideology that originally meant removing idols from the world, now generally means assuming direct control of all social justice.

For a contemporary understanding, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLzD51e7L-g&t=49m31s

The lecture is about pre-Tikkun Olam social justice ideas in the Tanakh, but from minute 49 (the very last minutes of it) it talks about this more modern idea.

The other side's opinion:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/06/07/the-fallacy-delusion-and-myth-of-tikkun-olam/

I really like the comment:

>The Mitzvot are just as bad as Tikkun Olam. We had a credo engraved on two tablets of stone, and it served us well for 1500 years.

>Then Rebbe decided that Moses was not clever enough, and turned our credo of Ten Commandments into 666 commandments, and later 613, for fear of Gentile massacre.

>Tikkun Olam is one of our shocking national stupidities that come from the Talmud and the Mitzvot. These two monstrosities will put us back in the gas chambers unless we get rid of them.

>>241755

This is getting incredibly interesting…

Thanks for the info, mate! I'm going to look into what you gave us now.

>>241755

Going to post this first and go into the rest of what you posted. First let me place down the part that interested me most. To quote this David Solomon:

>"There is no question that the book of revelation, which of course is outside the biblical canon that we are talking about–the book of Revelation is a part of a different spiritual discourse…there's no question that the book of Revelation owes itself a lot to two fundamental books of the prophets which are the books of Ezekiel… There's no question that if the prophets were alive today they would be able to solve the Middle East problem. No question. And it would be UNBELIEVABLY Left Wing!

This is where he took a severe turn off the road of logic. There is nothing Left Wing, or perhaps liberal, in God and so there would never be (just like there never was) anything liberal about the approach of His prophets. I agree that they would be able to solve the Middle East problem without question, but not because they would rely on their own reasoning but rather on God's judgement.

___Anyway, he then began to echo, likely without realizing it, certain aspects of Revelation that are not remotely the peaceful signs he believes they will be:

>"Jerusalem should be internationalized, the United Nations should be MOVED to Jerusalem, and it would act as a symbol that if you could solve this problem you could solve any problem and that all nations would flow in an out, anybody, so long as they were not armed. That would be the solution."

That alone speaks for itself. I know it's not spoken with some grudging zionist racial supremacist pride, but those words show such a fundamental lack of understanding regarding geopolitics and, more importantly, the actual biblical theology of God that it speaks for itself. It also shows that he has not really sought a spiritual understanding of either Ezekiel or Zachariah if this is what he believes those books relate to, and that's not even mentioning the further prophetic revelation of the book of Revelation. His eyes are clouded so severely, yet he believes this is what is needed for peace to reign.

>"You see, everyone knows how it's going to go; just how much pain and suffering are we going to have to go through to get there?"

Greater suffering than you know, Mr. Solomon. That unified world you speak of so fervently, the one which slows in and out of Jerusalem in unarmed peace, the world where Jerusalem is the epicenter of all unification…is precisely what will occur in the last days, what will occur at by the hand of the Antichrist.

Goes to show that all the studying in the world merits nothing, not a drop of true enlightenment, if it does not come through God.

The first video from David Solomon you posted is very interesting. It explains a lot of why there are so many Jews at the helm of social justice movements, political factions and sociopolitical groups. When coupling this concept with what is revealed to us in Scripture, of Satan's machinations and his Synagogue of Satan, we begin to understand the biblical reality of why there are so many "globalist Jews" of the like of George Soros, etc.

The unique aspect of this is that this notion of being at the forefront of societal advancement and working our best (for the glory of God, which wasn't mention in that excerpt I viewed) to heal the wounds of this fallen world are, in some respects, part of the Great Commission. It's much more dire and much less grandiose, of course, since we know from the Lord how this world will turn out, how every nation will turn on us (far worse than they already have), and how this world will only finally be healed once the greatest genocide (God's Wrath, which Christians will not endure) since the great tribulation right before it (which Christians will endure) has been committed and the blood of all the wicked has been shed.

The interesting thing is that there is a strange reversal of the perspective in roles and purpose between this Tikkun Olam perspective and the Christian race. Both acknowledge that the world is corrupted and fast decaying, rotted from within and spiritually sick. Both agree that the world needs to be healed, and that the people of God are chosen to be fellow workers for His glory to enact healing in His name.

HOW this healing proceeds is different, as is the end result. For those of this theological philosophy, they – the Jews – are to take control wherever they can and push for changes socially and politically in order to heal the world for the coming of the Lord Messiah, a means of preparing the way. The end result will be victory and harmony reigning from Jerusalem outward.

Christians too believe that we are to prepare the way for the coming of the Lord, but we do so with a focus on spreading the Good News, the Gospel of Christ Jesus our Messiah, what He has done, what He will do, what He desires of us and who He truly is. Yes we are encouraged to, as countless Christians have in the past, lead societal reform wherever we can, but we are to place the emphasis on the individual rather than the majority because we know from Scripture that the majority will ultimately burn in their sins. There is no point in trying to bring an entire nation, let alone the whole world, to repentance and following God because we know already the mystery that our Lord has revealed to us, that this world will turn far worse and blacken deeper than black before that new harmonious dawn arises. Likewise that dawn is also different in our theology because it will be initiated and will proceed from the Lord's own divine hand, not from the hands of men. There is nothing we can do to quicken no stall the Day of the Lord; Christ our Hero King will return in His proper time whether we are prepared or not.

Jerusalem, in accordance to Scripture then, is NOT the Jerusalem we know today. The issue that Mr. David Solomon here has is what he said regarding:

>"The book of Daniel, like the book of Revelation, has not yet been understood today."

There are many mysteries still hidden in all of Scripture, let alone in Revelation, but this statement is untrue in being so broad. It's very clear that total allegiance to any nation, country or region that exists today is nothing but a fault leading to disaster as God has blessed us with the knowledge of what will occur in the furthest tomorrow. The Jerusalem that is today is not remotely the eschatological New Jerusalem of the millennial reign nor will it ever be. Rather it is destined to be the eschatological Jerusalem detailed in Revelation, the one that sits atop a certain figure with certain proclamations and whose cup runs with a drink that drives the nations mad.

To place any adoration on the Jerusalem today, let alone all of this nation today which claims itself to be Israel, is to do one's self and their children a great wrong. They need to read Scripture and pray for understanding.

Though with all of this said, maybe we can have an emphasis on the prophetic views of Judaism vs Christianity in future threads. There's a lot to look into.

>>241799

>I never knew of such a thing as a "grand rabbi".

"Chief rabbi", I presume.

>>241866

That would make more sense.

Anything new to add, anyone? What have you discovered or considered regarding this subject lately?

The Vatican and Kabbalists are working heavily to bring their Antichrist.

The Catholics will be deceived into worshipping an ET "saviour" from another planet.

>>244296

>The Vatican and Kabbalists are working heavily to bring their Antichrist.

I doubt anyone but crackjobs and Satanists honestly want the Antichrist to come, but there is no doubt that many are misled by false doctrine to await a warrior "Messiah" to champion Jerusalem.

>The Catholics will be deceived into worshipping an ET "saviour" from another planet.

What?

This debate is quite interesting as well as it is directly in reference to the nature of God's triunity, His complex unity–the nature of the Trinity that is God.

As well as Jesus being God.

Deity of Messiah Debate - Michael Brown/James White vs. Anthony Buzzard/Joseph Good

Posting this here since it has a lot of references and heavily returns back to the complications Judaism tries to impose on biblical Christianity. Note the argumentation posited and the sources cited from both sides.

>>244441

Especially look at timestamp 1:43:36 of that vid

When crucified on the cross, Jesus was separated from God. How is this possible if He is Himself God? How can one God be divided? 1:43:36

This is real important, guys.

>>244441

>"The Psalm 22 point is quite clear; the forsakenness is that 'I haven't been delivered from this deathly situation' but then He is delivered to the praise of the entire earth, so by quoting that He is drawing attention to Psalm 22.

>"If there was a kind of spiritual symbolic seperation you wanted to discuss because He took on the sins of the world on His shoulders and felt the weight of that–that's not an issue. But the separation between Father and Son in terms of a reality of separation is another story."

Must Christians Observe the Dietary Laws?

Disregard >>230042 and >>229822

As I said in Islam Vs Christianity, I have made a new, updated MEGA compilation for these Vs Christianity threads which I plan to maintain for future threads.

Updated link to the MEGA:

https://mega.nz/#!jR4WjTiT!GHCTVVBrb9W1Cw4BqcP-uQCcn2Vnuo0dKU-J8LkN7Sw

Incredibly important and VERY interesting:

Hebrew Insights into the Hardening of Pharaoh’s Heart

>>248251

Anon, while much of what you say if very true and Scriptural, do not discount the Jew people entirely as if they are all cast into outer darkness.

-First remember that all of the first apostles and indeed most of the first church were entirely Jews.

-Second, remember that even in Acts there is the differentiation between the abominable Jew who terrorizes the follower of Christ and leads others, especially Jews, astray from the truth of the Lord.

-Third, recall what Scripture says regarding the Jews as God's people:

>I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

– Romans 11:1

Just want to pause briefly to state that Paul, who was once the chief of Pharisees and great hunter of Christians Saul before being turn to the Lord in humble servitude as an apostle by Jesus Christ Himself in vision, hailing from the tribe of Benjamin is important. Jews today desperately cling to racial lineages to secure status and/or superiority not just among Gentiles but among one another. Since Benjamin's line was recorded in one of the only two surviving records of Hebrew lineage of the time (as I recall), not only does Paul's claim show itself verifiable for the time but very powerful as to be among the tribe that is actually referable. So when Paul speaks on Jew lineage in his epistles, it comes from the same place of knowledge and import that his writing on Roman citizenship come from, himself also being a Roman citizen.

>God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleas with God against Israel, saying, "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

>Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

>What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

– Romans 11:2-7

And not even a page later:

>I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

In the next verse Paul explains why it describes the fate of the Jews in relation to Gentiles' salvation in this way:

>For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

– Romans 11:11-15

>>248270

>>248269

I found most of what you wrote enlightening but I don't agree (and perhaps this isn't what you're saying, but only my misreading) that we have to throw out all thought of race

Certainly nothing should be placed above God, but that is not to say that anything below that is of no regard

If we are filled with the love of God then we must have regard for the state of society present ad future - a state which history has shwn is heavily affected by demographics

Just as you and I are not the same, possessing different abilities and being suited for different roles, so too is it with the races of man. And just as you and are are different but can get along and work together, so it can be with the races

This does not mean that we cannot work together, but to deny race seems to be no virtue but rather disregard for consequence and, in the long run, disregard for the well being of our fellows

>>248325

I understand what you are saying, brother, and don't worry I'm not promoting a transient MY EYES SEE NO COLOR nonsense worldview.

However, when it comes down to it, the special affection held for kinsmen of the same race should instead be dealt to kinsmen of Christ. I know and have seen it occur where racial solidarity is torn apart by that very race we stood alongside. Just to name the scenarios as examples I mentioned with Blacks, Whites, Arabs, Indians and especially Jews. Racial kinsmanship is pointless as our "brother of [racial] blood" will sooner corrupt our home, deny us bread or sell us for a nickle than stand beside us in the darkest hour.

That's not to say something as radically commie as "If you're not in a biracial relationship or household or if you hold a particular attraction to your own race then you should be ashamed". Of course not! The beauty of the diversity God gave man is that while we are of one blood we also hold greater importance to our own race and often can approach members of our own race in ways and on subjects that other races simply can't.

Case in point: Dr. Michael Brown ministering and evangelizing Jews while Dr. Nabeel Qureshi ministers and evangelizes Arab Muslims. These men hold firm to a particular understanding of their race which informs their approach in ministering on the Gospel to members of their own race (Jews, Arabs) who would otherwise dismiss or be hostile to "outsiders".

So yes, race is very important to understand and utilize for the glory of God, but make no mistake: outside of understanding and approachability race is in itself pointless.

Christians must be shown foremost preference in healing, giving, bonding etc. It's what we as family members in Christ are meant to do. We must first give our homes to fellow Christians before an atheist, first give our bread to starving Christians than to starving sinners, and most certainly we must only look within the family of God, within the church, for romance than outside.

Example: Our brothers and sisters in Christ are being massacred, slaved, raped and exterminated by the vile forces of Satan via Islam. Yet, so are Yazidis, Jews and other Muslims. Who takes priority in the Christian mind? According to Scripture, it is our family.

The virtues of familial preference towards members of same race is overwritten with Christ in the faith, instead showing preference to fellow citizens of the Kingdom of God. Then, if at all possible (and for their sake we must), we must reach out to the sinner, the Yazidi, the Judaist and Muslim alike to help them.

Far better that we live in a multiracial community founded on the bedrock of Christ than a purely Jewish, White, Black etc. community that is founded on the bedrock of race.

>>248325

I hope I came across clear. I'm not advocating for the outbreeding of a race (quite genocide) or that race means nothing. If race meant nothing as we live then God would have never manifest such diversity in man.

But race matters nothing to God when it comes to preference, priority, or otherwise. That is what I'm trying to convey.

As a mixed race individual (I look Lebanese due to heritage but come from Dominican and Sicilian stock) I don't know the grave importance that is given to the preservation of racial purity.

However, I believe that the point of what Scripture speaks to the Jews regarding their fate and the shared unity of Gentile and Jew in Christ speaks also to this matter.

Also consider this: we will not be of one race with God, at least not from what I've read from Scripture. We will be given perfect new bodies but as for their race I do not know. I consider that since God is teaching us many things as He sculpts us in our walk on this earth, and since race is one of countless subjects of this grand lesson, that race will not vanish in the millenial reign of Christ and beyond. If that's not the case then so be it, whatever the Lord decides is what we desire. Yet if it IS the case, then what of that "racial preservation" then? Will it amount to anything?

Likewise, though more cemented in prophecy, what of that "racial preservation" I hear others bang on about come the great tribulation and the Day of the Lord? Will our preserved race come to our aid when all the world is in thrall to the Antichrist and hunting us Christians across the globe, even worse than our brothers and sisters endure right now, as you read this, in Iraq, Iran, Syria, much of Africa and elsewhere?

Will the racially preserved nations have any less delusion, any more sense, to help the saints when they bow their knees to the False King of the earth during those days?

And what of our rising when our Lord Christ Almighty comes with a shout signalling our salvation at the climax of this persecution? Will the races we worked so hard to preserve, as our worldly racial kinsmen taught us during these years before, hold any less revulsion and utter terror at the fate coming for them?

The answer to this racial issue is in the truth of Revelation, echoed earlier in Daniel and spoken of again in Isaiah. The truth is that no race will hold solidarity and every nation–every nation–will turn on Christians in the given time.

God, however, is immutable, and so is His kingdom. Therefore, I say we let the world decay without stress or despair, knowing that this is merely what was foretold and what must occur before the Day of the Lord and that wonderful reign of our Savior King.

>>248325

Now this >>248373 is NOT to say that we should ignore the quiet racial genocide occurring primarily against Whites in the Western world (which, thanks to the flooding rapefugees, that diabolical Trojan Horse, is no longer so quiet) and South Africa and elsewhere. Likewise we must speak openly and boldly the truths we know of those behind the curtain and those seeking destruction and chaos, both the powerful figures and the religiopolitical ideologies at play, no matter how "politically inconvenient" they are.

Neither should we allow wickedness to take hold of and manipulate society wherever it can.

We MUST stand firm against ALL wickedness

We MUST NOT abide ANY wickedness

We MUST NOT deny the truth of things

We MUST work, vote, protest, shout the reality before us and, should it come down to it, even shed blood in defense of our families and our neighbors (within the confines of what is lawful, for we cannot rebel against the governors of the land in which we reside unless those laws are directly against Christ and even then we must never flee from the consequence but suffer them righteously for rebelling against those laws specifically for the glory of God as our forefathers in the faith did we pray for the leaders to be overtaken by the wisdom of God and for God's will to come through them, not for the success of our leaders–big difference).

HOWEVER, God is above all, and thus though we move, shout and sway let it always be for the glory of God, seeking the salvation of the individual and not the nation, for no nation can be saved since, as it is prophesied, all "saved" nations will turn and this world will continue to built up its sin until such a time as the Lord has ordained for the final hours to come upon it, thereby freeing us from this decaying fallen globe and renewing this earth with His rejuvenating breath for eternity.

I hope I've made myself clear regarding race, all races, and the most pressing current and ever-present issues of race.

>>248373

>Therefore, I say we let the world decay without stress or despair, knowing that this is merely what was foretold and what must occur before the Day of the Lord and that wonderful reign of our Savior King.

I also don't mean this to say that we don't act in accordance to Scripture and minister to all men, witnessing in the name of Christ, or that we should not continually pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ who suffer immeasurably for His light (as well as those not of the faith who suffer in the dark).

I meant, in the most verbose way possible it seems haha, that we should not focus on the majority but the individual.

Ultimately while all nations and cultures will pass away with the return of our Lord of Lords, King of Kings, our Almighty Hero King who descends from on high, the individual human soul will exist eternally. It should not be our focus to preserve or protect a race or nation but to help be a tool used by our Father in Heaven, to become an instrument of Christ for the salvation of the individual.

Nations will fall. Races, or at least their importance, will melt away.

The soul persists for eternity.

Our focus is on where that soul persists: In the presence of the Lord along with us, reconciled and justified by God alone to continue in eternal shalom, iraene, that is peace with God? Or in the fire of Hades, destined to be poured out into the Lake of Fire, the eternal spiritual Gehenna, to suffer beyond suffering in outer darkness for eternity's endless horizon?

>>248375

for the love of God, condense your posts.

>>248380

Sorry, I'm a bit anxious with stuff going on over here haha

Didn't mean to go on for so long. I just wanted to make sure I was absolutely clear (painstakingly so apparently). Sorry about that. I sum it up well enough here >>248379

>>248375

> the quiet racial genocide occurring primarily against Whites

/pol/ pls go and stay go

Christianity is above your petty race squabbles.

>>248397

Anon, come now. I know I typed a lot, maybe too much, but I did so to be incredibly specific about this subject. All my posts in full:

>>248370

>>248373

>>248375

>>248379

Please read them all to know what I am speaking about. Any details therein (like the quite genocide thing) can be for another thread, though, as this thread is solely for the subject of the thread.

>>248370

I certainly agree with you then.

I think that our job as Christians, broadly, is to act in love towards everyone

I don't see any reason why I should value the happiness of a particular person based on their race more than the happiness of any other - even while I am fully aware of racial differences and differences in ability

I think that race needs to be accounted for because I fear that what happened in South Africa and Rhodesia would happen across Europe if whites become a minority - that where once we were able to provide charity to the world we would ourselves collapse

>>248373

>>248379

Here I disagree with yu, but I'm also not certain of the basis for your and many other Christians belief that the apocalypse is inevitable

2nd Thesalonians 2, KJV

The Man of Sin

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means:

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

>>248412

That means that the Day of the Lord (ie the return of Christ as the final part of the end of this world) will not come until there is a falling away, as in, a massive falling away from the faith.

That has happened centuries ago and continues to happen even worse today.

Paul was assuring the Thessalonians that they had not missed the return of Christ Jesus, likely because, due to the increasing distress wrenching Christians under growing persecution and false teachers spouting nonsense, they were being taught they had "missed God" so to speak and had been abandoned.

>>248412

Looking at parallel translations further clarify the context:

http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/2-3.htm

>Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

– 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NIV)

>Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

same verse, (ESV)

>Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

same verse, (NASB)

See? It's a short lesson/mention of chronology not that it's an avoidable future.

The apocolypse, that is, the end of the world by the Lord's hand and all it entails, will come. Even Jesus spoke of it at length. This is the basis for why most Christians believe it is unavoidable, because the future is set in Scripture.

I suggest looking up the eschatological (future, prophetic etc.) Jerusalem series by Chris White on Youtube. He also did great stuff on the Antichrist and other things, all biblically based and not at all as hair-brained as you typically get. Very well done research.

>>248426

2/3 of those specifically use 'unless" which gives an entirely different meaning from until

And I don't know how you meant that there has already been a falling away in faith - there are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history

The west is corrupt but it is not the whole world

>>248427

>>248426

NIV is the only version whose reading logically entails inevitability as it uses until

Here's a side-by-side of 5 bibles

http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/2.htm

>>248427

>there are more Christians alive today than at any other point in history

Mormons, Johovah's Witnesses/Watchtower Society etc. are not Christians.

Pro-same sex "marriage" is not Christian.

Worship of anyone but Christ is not Christian.

Belief that one must be baptized by water in order to be saved, belief that one must be circumcised to be saved, belief that you can be sexually promiscuous while being Christian, belief that you must never judge anyone for any reason (judge the tree by it's fruits? Nah!), etc. not Christian.

Unitarianism, belief that Jesus was just a man and then made into a higher servant, belief that Jesus was romantically associated with Mary, belief that Jesus was alright with same sex anything, belief that Jesus would be okay with abortion even in the case of rape, etc. also not Christian.

The title of Christian is the majority, second only to atheist, but true Christians are always the minority: those who seek Christ Jesus in truth, following His Gospel and after having repented earnestly they both claim Him as their Lord and Savior and proclaim Him wherever they can to glorify His most holy name.

TL;DR The righteous are and always will be a minority. There was once a time when biblical Christianity was indeed massive, so wonderfully great beyond compare in numbers.

Snakes slithered in.

Rats infiltrated and made nests.

Roaches bred beneath the heels of aging elders and took on their mantles when they passed.

The church of Christ is pure and ever expanding, however the church as the statistics show, the church the world presents, is nothing more than an infested hive of a dilapidated home.

Don't trust statistics when it comes to Christianity, anon. I too believe that the kingdom of God is gaining ground day by day, most especially in the Middle East where Islam reigns (a great show of God's power among people who are otherwise under the thumb of Satan) and in India it would seem.

The church is expanding, but will always be the minority. We are the remnant of mankind, the ones who, by God's grace alone, living according to truths of Scripture alone, will live in His presence to see the new dawn of our Lord's reign on earth.

>>248427

>2/3 of those specifically use 'unless" which gives an entirely different meaning from until

"until" is just a simplified version. They mean the same thing.

>For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first

Meaning, unless the rebellion/apostasy/falling away comes first, along with the revealing of the "man of lawlessness" (aka Antichrist), that day will note come.

That day will not come until this happens.

That will not happen unless this happens.

See? It's actually the same thing in context of what is written. Careful reading of what is written with that link you provided further explains this.

Besides, there is nothing in Revelation that alludes to the possibility of the Day of the Lord being avoidable. Neither does anything Jesus said on the subject make sense if it is avoidable.

And why would we want to avoid the end of this world?

>The west is corrupt but it is not the whole world

I'm sorry, mate, but this is simply unbiblical. Please take a moment to read Scripture, most easily the Gospel of John, Romans and the epistles of Peter and John. I would say to read all of Scripture but I don't want to sound rude and guidance is required.

It is simple, cold and irrefutable fact that just as the majority of all men are desperately wicked and condemned for suppressing the knowledge of God in favor of their wickedness (Romans 1), that this world is an utterly fallen world. It is a fallen world of fallen men who inherit the sin nature of Adam in full. The minority is the righteous, the majority is the wicked, and the minority was once the majority but became righteous only by, through, and for Christ Jesus our Lord, for by His grace do we have eternal life.

No man can be redeemed unless he turns in repentance (asking forgiveness and truly seeking to turn from wickedness) and is thus justified by his faith in Christ Jesus, that He is the Son and one with the Father, that He is God, that He came in the flesh to fulfill what was written and willingly gave Himself as a sacrifice at the crucifixion so that we who believe would be redeemed and reconciled to our Creator, that He died and arose again and then after His glorious appearing bodily ascended to the Father's side in the glory He had from before existence ever was.

And, one day, after all that has been prophesied has come to pass in God's due time, our Lord will return, and everything else that is written will be fulfilled.

We shouldn't even entertain the desire to avoid the Day of Lord, the final end of this world and return of our Lord Christ Jesus. It is a glorious thing, the marvelous coming of our Hero King who will come from the clouds along with the heavenly host with a roar declaring Himself before the Antichrist and all the world that stood with the dragon behind him. God's wrath will pour out on the wicked in those days, while the righteous, those who suffered so unspeakably during the great tribulation, will then already be ascended to Him and we all who believed on Him faithfully unto death will be spared the wrath of God, instead sharing in His glory and standing in His presence at peace with Him forever.

New Heaven

New Earth

New Jerusalem

Many, many things must and will come to pass, but it only further proves that our Lord is in control and that He wants us to know that, no matter what occurs as we live even now, we already hold victory and the promise of eternity in Him through the cleansing blood of our Savior.

An Open Message to Rabbi Jerome Davidson (and Other Critics of Pamela Geller)

It has more to do with Islam, true, but I post this in this thread because of the particular show from this Judaist which helps illustrate my point.

This guy is a rabbi, a religious leader in a synagogue, a place of worship for Judaism, and yet he goes out of his way to go against a public speaker set to speak in his synagogue purely for the sake of "Islamophobia" etc.

Now, I know we all remember what majority Judaism teaches regarding the Gentiles: >>227433

And yet this rabbi got uppity about the idea that a woman called Muslims animals, when in reality she only called jihadis savages.

Who do you think it benefits for him to bear his potentially two-face issue and protect the descrimination against jihadis?

How does even remotely bringing up the cancerous notion of "hate speech" help him or his Judaist congregation?

It's a minor point, really, but like I said it's just another bit of evidence that these Jewish leaders who Jews are told to look up to, by false doctrine and identity politics, do NOT have the best interest in mind for any Jew.

>>229960

I did it, OP.

Thanks to this, I was able to find the actual source of the 2800 slaves referenced in: >>227433

http://fathersmanifesto.net/talmudlies.htm

Many internet sources on what the Talmud is supposed to contain quote "Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D" as the source, whereas the correct one is Shabbath 32b, here's the quote from the Soncino translation:

>Resh Lakish said: He who is observant of fringes will be privileged to be served by two thousand eight hundred slaves, for it is said, Thus saith the Lord of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, etc.

Soncino's commentary adds:

>Zech. VIII, 23, ‘Skirt’ is regarded as referring to the fringe (cf. n. 2.). There are four fringes, and traditionally there are seventy languages: we thus have 70 X 10 X 4 = 2800.

The quote is from the Talmud, not from the Zohar, nor other Kabbalistic texts, nor from Simeon Haddarsen who is a 10th century Bible commentator. It references Zechariah 8:23 with your usual Talmudic interpretation where: "We will go with you" somehow means becoming slaves to the Joo…

Checking your sources is ever-important, surely, but don't let the Juice fool you into thinking that just because there is no 'Simeon Haddarsen' book, or a 'fol. 56-D' in the Talmud, they don't believe they're getting their promised 2800 Goyim slaves when Messiah comes.

>>249588

Speaking of Zechariah 8:23, what if I told you Christ was the Jew Zechariah was talking about?

The many translations say "him that is a Jew" or "a Jew", might as well be the Messiah himself, who is with God, and attracts followers speaking all manner of languages.

It's a Messianic prophecy speaking of a singular Jew, it doesn't explicitly refer to each of them.

On the subject of fringes, we know Jesus wears fringes which get touched by people about to become followers - and miraculously healed - from Matthew 9:20, 15:36, Mark 6:56, and Luke 8:44.

That's why the Talmud goes on the offensive with this nonsense, and drowns everything in slavery on top of it for good measure.

Matthew also quotes Jesus informing us that the Scribes and Pharisees try to impress others by wearing particularly long fringes (23:5).

>>249588

>>249593

>The quote is from the Talmud, not from the Zohar, nor other Kabbalistic texts, nor from Simeon Haddarsen who is a 10th century Bible commentator. It references Zechariah 8:23 with your usual Talmudic interpretation where: "We will go with you" somehow means becoming slaves to the Joo…

Directly from the Talmud? I see. And of course their corrupt interpretation leads to all kinds of cancerous insertions into the pure truth of God.

Fantastic work, mate! Wonderful!

>>249615

I think that biblical passage (Z 8:23) is a reference to the apostles and the first Jewish converts who spread the religion to the Gentiles. That would make more sense.

Jesus Christ came to fulfill a different mission, and after his mission was accomplished it was the task of the apostles and first converts (many of which were Jews) to spread the good news. It just seems to me that the passage better describes them.

>>249898

>Jesus Christ came to fulfill a different mission

Don't be misled, anon; this and many more accomplishments were precisely why He came. It was His mission to bring about salvation and eternal reconciliation between man and his Creator.

The unification of the Gentiles and Jews was a part of His mission, as it is one of the great mysteries now revealed in Christ Jesus's victory on the cross and thereafter the revelations which came to the apostles.

Note the biblical phrase

>To the Jews first, then to the Greek

That is, salvation came for the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. The Jews, that is the majority people of the Jews, rejected Christ. The Gentiles, interestingly enough, grew closer to Him.

Later on it would be seen that the Jews in great number would begin to follow the path of Christ, as would the Gentiles. This is because, while salvation was coming first to the descendants of the people of the old covenant, salvation was always coming and ultimately did come to all men (who believe on Christ).

>>249987

Well, yeah. There isn't anything in your post I disagree with. I just think the image in Zechariah is more referring to the activity of the apostles.

God bless.

>>250029

Fair enough, brother. I suppose I can see that interpretation as well. Either way it is most certainly in relation to the work of Christ, whether Christ Himself or the resulting victory in the unification of His followers.

And thank you! God bless you in Christ, too!

How are things going?

How do you address the concerns such as:

Isaiah 52-53 refers to Jacob/Israel, not Jesus and this is evident from reading the previous verses. The twisting of Zechariah 12:10 by Christians is also common, but the prophecy obviously has not been fulfilled yet either (or even if it was, it does not apply to Jesus)

Jesus did not bring worldwide peace and knowledge of G-d.

He did not build the final temple.

No man can die for another man's sins, but G-d himself says that sins can be forgiven by repentance. So why would G-d take on the form of a MAN and then die for us?

>>252828

>Jesus did not bring worldwide peace and knowledge of G-d.

He is coming back to do it.

>He did not build the final temple

You can use the argument above (Second coming) or use the argument of "I will destroy this temple (His body) and rebuild it in 3 days", the Church is the Body of Christ etc. etc.

>No man can die for another man's sins, but G-d himself says that sins can be forgiven by repentance. So why would G-d take on the form of a MAN and then die for us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA98wto3g2k

inb4 you're not catholic

>>252878

There is no such concept of the Second Coming of the Messiah in the OT. It is a huge copout to say that yeah, he will do it the next time he is around.

>>252828

>Isaiah 52-53 refers to Jacob/Israel, not Jesus

To begin with, the Gospel of John explicitly states that Isaiah saw Jesus, so that's not even a possibility. You would need to claim John was lying (or go the Muslim route of "corrupted text" which has been disprove thousands of times over with the nearly innumerable manuscripts we have of the NT).

So, was John a liar? Why not reread the actual chapters of Isaiah and see if it is only speaking of Israel or if, like EVERY prophetic prophecy and almost every vision of the OT, that it details both what is seen and what is unseen (for example: when the prophets admonish and rebuke the great emperors and kings of old they rebuke both the wicked kings AND the power behind them aka Satan with the same words).

>The twisting of Zechariah 12:10 by Christians is also common

Listen, if it was a matter of "IT IS TOTALLY JESUS!!" then perhaps you might have a leg to stand on, but considering the alternative reading is not one of prophecy regarding the Messiah but of GENTILE SLAVERY then you must surely figure out which one is the truest reading.

Here's a hint: Which interpretation glorifies God and which glorifies man?

To these issues I also raise this post of mine regarding my recent studies: >>245887

How can God be seen yet unseen? How can God walk the earth yet remain eternally enthroned in heaven? What was the plural noun used in the beginning of Genesis intended for?

>inb4 God was speaking to the angels

So then man was made in the image of who? God AND the angels? Or do we uniquely carry the image of God as Scripture states?

>Jesus did not bring worldwide peace and knowledge of G-d.

Jesus DID bring worldwide knowledge of God. I agree that the majority deny God, and that even the majority of those who proclaim to be Christian are, in fact, not truly following God in truth. However, Jesus is universal. His sacrifice is the bedrock of history, and His existence and accomplishments are the most attested to in history–by that I mean that even the antichristians of old could not deny certain signs and truths of the miraculously accurate accounts found in the New Testament.

No matter what country you go to, Jesus Messiah is known. Perhaps by Jesus, or Yesus, or Yoshua/Yeshua but God is known, and Jesus is God.

>He did not build the final temple.

The Jews of the day did not know whether the Messiah would come as a priest or as a king and hoped for a warrior king. They did not know what is explicitly stated in Hebrews, that Jesus is both THE High Priest and King, the very figure whom the great king David echoed in his most god fearing actions (acting as both priest and king more than once).

>No man can die for another man's sins, but G-d himself says that sins can be forgiven by repentance. So why would G-d take on the form of a MAN and then die for us?

Ah, my friend, that is indeed a stumbling block for many. I don't do this to brush you off but rather to point you to my answer. Please take time and read this for yourself:

>>245885

>>245887

>>252890

>There is no such concept of the Second Coming of the Messiah in the OT

Yeah. But there are some prophecies which explicitely say that they shall be fulfilled before the destruction of the Second Temple. Guess what? The Second Temple was destroyed in AD 70, and Jesus is the only relevant candidate for Messiah. So either Jesus is the Messiah, or there is no Messiah at all.

>>252910

Very good point, mate, but understand that Judaists are led to believe that such a notion was based upon a conditional promise made by God with the Jewish people, and because of the sinfulness of the Jews they missed out on the coming of the Messiah.

However this is a bold misinterpretation and gross heresy of God's truth, as the covenant made with David was not conditional whatsoever. The promise God made with Samuel and other kings certainly was, but note that God only ever makes a conditional promise with the phrases "if" and "then".

Example it would be something like "IF you follow My statutes THEN I will bless you greatly, but IF you do not THEN I will punish you terribly". That sort of thing.

The promise of the Messiah, and all prophesies revolving around Him, are not conditional. This must be noted as it too is one of the shackles placed upon Jews by Pharisaical Judaists to burden them away from God's grace and away from the light of Christ Jesus our Messiah.

>>252913

Yes, this is true. There is a story in the Talmud where it says that a rabbi met Elijah and Elijah told him where the Messiah can be found. The Rabbi went to the Messiah, the Messiah explained that he is ready to be called but that time has not come. The rabbi comes back to Elijah and says that Elijah is a liar because the guy was just a potential Messiah, to which Elijah replies that the Messiah will come, IF you (all Jews basically) heed him.

And on that note, thank you all for replying in a civil manner, I got some issues with the answers given but I would like to think on them regardless, so please give me time to formulate a reply.

>>252918

>And on that note, thank you all for replying in a civil manner, I got some issues with the answers given but I would like to think on them regardless, so please give me time to formulate a reply.

Of course! Take your time, friend! It's not a rush. And thank you for the information you shared regarding that story; it helps shed light on how this particular concept came about.

I'm currently ill, so I may not reply quickly, but please post whenever you feel ready or curious!

>>227408

I personally have reviewed literature of Jewish Mysticism and I in know way believe that it is unholy or wrong. Our basis is that Jesus/Yeshua IS the Hebrew/Judaic Messiah and King. It is as much as a stumbling block for Jews to accept Yeshua as their savior just as much,if not more or less, difficult to surrender to. Without him we are all lost.

Here is one thing I don't like about these threads though. You are propagating antisemitism. They are people like you and I. There is no conspiracy of a world domination. As for the Zohar and Bahir or other literature, it attempts to describe the Lord, the Heavens he created, and living holy lives. Here is the fault that most people fall for (even I but I was saved halleluyah):

Knowledge is not the key to heaven. Faith and innocence is.

In the bible we are told to support the State of Israel. They worship the same God the Father.

John 4:21-24

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

>>253374

Jewish Mysticism is equally unholy as any other mysticism or false doctrine, anon. We've gone over why in these threads thoroughly. There is no place in the acceptance of Jesus/Yeshua Messiah for "female aspects of God", "God is changed in any way by our actions", "the whole wisdom of God is attainable to men via study" or even the Talmudic "the rabbis have the final say on all matter of scriptural law, even beating God in an argument".

>Our basis is that Jesus/Yeshua IS the Hebrew/Judaic Messiah and King.

That is not remotely in Judaism or Kabbalism as we have studied. It's also completely against the Talmudic espousal of Jesus being a bastard and heretic burning in hot excrement.

>It is as much as a stumbling block for Jews to accept Yeshua as their savior just as much,if not more or less, difficult to surrender to. Without him we are all lost.

I absolutely agree and have stated this in this very thread.

>You are propagating antisemitism.

The opposite, in fact. Please review such posts of mine like >>238721 and >>248265 and >>248270

In fact, I can't find a single instance of anti-Jew propaganda or hatemongering in this whole thread. There wasn't anything in the first thread and, as I recall, nothing of it in the second thread either. God is wonderful to have blessed these humble threads with such beloved brothers of mine, both Jew and Gentile alike, all posting from such various regions of the world–even from Israel!

__I feel truly blessed to have come into contact with so many people who all desire God's truth and not to mock blindly but rather to seek the light and share it with others.

>There is no conspiracy of a world domination.

Of course there is, or rather, there is a conspiracy of evil helmed by the false king of this fallen world–Satan.

This is Scriptural. As for a global cabal of specifically Jewish globalists? I don't know about that, but it is undeniable that many globalists and venomous abominable bankers, black priests of mammon, kings of usury, are indeed Jew. But are they Jews of spirit, who seek the Lord? Or are they merely Jews of flesh, and thus belong to the Synagogue of Satan? The answer here is clear.

You can view some posts on this subject here >>241755

and >>241799

>As for the Zohar and Bahir or other literature, it attempts to describe the Lord, the Heavens he created, and living holy lives.

I'm sorry, anon, but the Zohar is absolutely abomination. Please refer back to the earlier part of the thread and previous thread archived in the link in the OP, or search "Zohar" in this thread for more details.

The heresy it espouses and the reality of its origin and assimilation into what we know today as Judaism will surprise you.

>Knowledge is not the key to heaven. Faith and innocence is.

Knowledge alone is not key, true, but understand that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I love and adore my Lord, anon, as well I fear Him. I know the penalty of following a muddied reflection of His glory unto death, and the punishment due me for spreading such a muddied, sullied reflection to others as truth.

I seek Him in truth and seek to spread His truth to all who will hear, both for fear and love of my Lord.

God does not want us to be naive to His truth, but to the evil of the world, desiring us not to be gullible to this evil but pure and virginal in not partaking in it. Wise as serpents and innocent as doves, as it were, and growing in our faith from mere milk to whole foods.

We are to exhort and admonish, to edify and rebuke, all with due humility, compassion, and righteous zeal for the Lord our God–all for His glory.

>>253374

>In the bible we are told to support the State of Israel.

No we are not.

>They worship the same God the Father.

No they do not. Here is Scripture to prove it (and there is far, far more if you are willing to read further and see for yourself)

>Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

– 1 John 2:23

Not to say such is the Antichrist, but that they are anti-christ, anti the Christ, against Jesus.

>"Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God."

– Luke 12:8-9

The State of Israel as it exists today has Christians living in it, yes, and not all of them are treated horribly (it depends on the region you live in I hear). However, the state itself (much like every state on this fallen world, I should add) wholly denies Christ Jesus/Yeshua as Lord. From the scoundrels of Meir Kahane to the introspective and anti-nationalist philosophers of Yeshayahu Leibowitz, the state of Israel and all it's internal figures from proponents to opponents, from advocates to critics, are very much against Christianity and against Christ.

That is not to say there are no believing Jews in Israel today, nor does it mean that there are no believing Jews in any office of Israel (I doubt it but I could be wrong). However, it is predominantly, and thus the state (ie governing forces and body), rejects Christ Jesus–some more rabidly than others.

We as Christians are sojourners in this world, being citizens of a better kingdom already by faith in Christ our Lord. We are not to cling to any nation in support because of what they are and what they will do (read Revelation).

As for the Scripture you quoted, Jesus was not speaking of the nation that exists today. THIS Israel did not exist back then, and neither did Kabbalism or the Zohar or the Talmud as it stands today. Notice, however, that even back then there was a singular group that garnered the ire of our Savior King Christ Jesus: Pharisees

>But when he [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones…"

– Matthew 3:7-9

That was John the Baptist. Then came Christ:

>"Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

– Matt. 23:33

>"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

– Matt. 5:20

All of Matthew 23

These are the figures to whom the modern nation of Israel looks up to, the religious figures they admire. Ovadia Yosef is a glimpse of this, and a good glimpse. These Pharisees have not gotten better but far, far worse, as Jesus said

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation."

Matt. 23:13-14

These men, the blind guides of religion and the godless political figures of the world, are the ones who are true antisemites. These men who have made themselves abominations before the Lord shackle the Jew in identity politics and lead him from God's light into the darkness of their father the Devil.

TL;DR No Christian should "support" Israel, or any other nation, but rather they should abide by the laws of the nation in which they reside (unless those laws are directly antichrist) in accordance to Scripture, God's word, and instead should support their fellow countrymen, their neighbors who have yet to know God in truth, and foremost especially their kinsmen in Christ, our brothers and sisters in the faith.

Nice reply. I'll have to read it over again with a fine comb. Good talking I'll have to come back later.

>>253461

No worries and thanks! Come back anytime, friend!

May God bless you perfectly in Christ Jesus.

Again I'm posting Dr. Brown's study of Talmudic literature and his very unique approach to it in speaking to a primarily Jew audience on the subject.

http://realmessiah.com/index.php/en/talmud

I can't get all of the videos from the site and each one is about ten minutes or more so webM is difficult to pull off, but you can watch all of them there.

Please note that when praise is given with regards to the Talmud, I do not believe he is literally praising abomination but rather speaking in amazement and interest at how close certain figures come to the truth of God despite being in darkness.

Remember, the Pharisees were not fools because they did not have Scripture, they were fools because they "strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel".

As you pore through these videos you will see precise examples of what Jesus was fervently admonishing and yelling against in fury–all long before the Talmud we know today came to be.

This embed is once again the only video I do have copied to Tube which is regarding the "rabbis overrule God" incident in Bava Metzia 59

Here's something rather related, though with shades of unrelated politics:

A Candid Response to Rabbi Gruenwald's Letter to Ted Cruz

What do you lot think of the arguments presented?

>>258623

I note in particular how certain points in here I see the first time I have heard the often smiling Dr. Brown sound truly angered. Very interesting at what he gets angered by as well.

The first, of course, belonging to the "erase Jews" remark by the rabbi.

>>227423

I have never actually watched this before and I am really really liking it so far, but one thing I think is off at about the 1:18:00 mark. In order to be Jewish you don't need just one single Jewish person in your lineage, specifically, don't you need to have had your mother be Jewish? So I feel like this argument kind of does not work. Still though most of it has been very informative, and I am a Protestant and I am agreeing with you guys.

>>253401

If they do not worship the same God the Father who do they worship? Could it be that that verse simply means that they worship Him but their worship 'doesn't count' so to speak, because they do not approach Him through the Son.

>>258643

>don't you need to have had your mother be Jewish?

If we're going by what we find in Scripture, it would seem that classically yes, it's the mother.

However like all things this concept varies from Jew to Jew.

>>258718

Amen to this my brother. And might I just say I had to cap this. I have noticed a dramatic increase in quality posts on this board as of late.

>>234548

>>259173

Relates back to >>234581

>>260555

>Anyone have any input or resources?

I only vaguely remember hearing about the Disputation of Barcelona. I didn't know there was a movie made, let alone starring Christopher Lee.

Would be good to see if we could get our hands on this.

We should also see if we can get some real evidence and transcripts of the debate, especially such which wasn't touched by Hollywood or popular media.

>>260555

Also, nice find on this debate.

I'll embed for archiving purposes.

Can Jews Believe in Jesus? Michael Brown vs. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

>>260731

Well welcome, mate!

>Juden

Unless you're German (since that's actually just the German accent for Jews) then simply refer to them naturally. We don't want to give the impression that this is a Nazi roleplay. haha

But thank you for the interesting infograph. I don't think JIDF shills have been hitting the board just to shut it down with these threads, but honestly I would not be surprised if some very Pharisaical Jews or, more likely, reactionary secular Jews, tried such a thing.

Thankfully we have had and hopefully will have Jews from many walks of life coming into these threads and posting with interest or rebuttal. All but one have been more akin to the Berean Jews rather than the Thessalonican Jews in how they are willing to listen.

It's just important to help them first see that these threads are against Judaism, not Jews, and properly separates the common Jew (Judaist or secular) from the Synagogue of Satan.

I had one here once who thought these threads were Holocaust denial threads for some reason, which I found odd since we never present the idea that there was not persecution of Jews by Hitler's people (certain details need to be discussed, of course, but that's another matter). The concept of labeling it "Holocaust" however is both bizarre and moreso blasphemous, so I don't use that term when referring to the forced labor camps in which many Jews and others suffered.

Anyway, please go ahead and contribute what you would like, though please don't go fully into politics since these threads are foremost theological. Of course, as you've seen in this very thread, politics does inevitably come up so I welcome your contributions and perspective on the matter either way. I just don't want the thread to be derailed by 100 geopolitical or historical infographs. haha

Also, you use spoilers with ** before and after what you want to spoil, mate.

>>260043