/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

That's what happens when you let protestants run stuff.

And people still think John Calvin is a nice guy.

>>254315

>Calvin

>nice

wait, so there's people out there who don't believe him to be naught more than an autistic French lawyer?

>>254315

Because Catholics never burned anyone.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-3.htm

>>254351

Yeah, but we kinda had the right to do it.

>>254426

wut

>>254426

You guys would've burned Servetus too, therefore you forfeit any right to bitch and moan about his human rights and the 'ebil protties'.

Heresy is worse than murder, it sends the soul to hell forever while murder only ends a finite life, therefore heretics were punished with death when there was a clear Christendom reigning

Aquinas:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3

Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

>>255395

>Heresy is worse than murder, it sends the soul to hell forever.. therefore heretics were punished with death

then killing a person for his heresy is even worse, since you are sending his soul to hell forever and also ending his finite life.

Unless you believe in utilitarian morality, so you kill one guy and send him to hell in order to save 10 others. Christianity isn't based on this "ends justify the means" morality

>>255398

>Unless you believe in utilitarian morality, so you kill one guy and send him to hell in order to save 10 others. Christianity isn't based on this "ends justify the means" morality

Actually, it is, it's just a matter of the ends to be attained. Christianity seeks to promote God's creation in breadth and depth as much as possible- perfect love. The problem is that killing heretics doesn't do that. Solitary confinement until written and public repentance is sufficient. Then part of the creation isn't destroyed and no one hears the heretic's bullshit. The only excuse for killing is immediately apprenhension of damage without any way to prevent it (e.g. self defense).

On the other hand, I'm fine with liberal use of solitary confinement and exile.

What is the argument? That he promoted something that would eventually erode the faith of anyone listening?

Therefore it would be better for those listening to abandon their faith and instead to shit out kids without any sense of familial obligation?

>>255403

>Solitary confinement until written and public repentance is sufficient

anyone can repent and write a beautiful sob story. and then go out and rape and murder again.

If we executed them as God said we always should, we wouldn't have these problems.

>>254426

>Yeah, but we kinda had the right to do it.

>IT'S WRONG WHEN PEOPLE I DON'T LIKE DO IT

>>254315

>That's what happens when you let protestants run stuff.

What is the Albigensian Crusade?

I don't trust most of the Reformers. Their offshoots of Protestantism resulted in dangerous theology on their own. According to writings, Calvin based a lot of his religious views off of Augustine of Hippo, who was one of the first endorsers of abortion based on "when a soul enters the baby"

Ridiculousness. Having someone burned alive, we are all aware that fire is the most painful form of death, is insane. The trinity doctrine is found nowhere in the Bible, the word is a greek in itself. The founders and followers of Trinity doctrine admit that they both

A) can't find biblical precedent or definition for Trinity theology.

B) Can't understand Trinity doctrine and that to ponder the Trinity brings "mystical holy confusion"

What is Protestantism but the rebirth of heresies of Marcion and random beliefs of Augustine of Hippo taken to a degree of belief as to be some kind of Holy doctrine.

Protestantism has no closer claim to truth than Catholics. While Catholics have the sin of idol worship and various pagan blasphemies, Protestants have a spirit of persecution and separation, or variance and contention among their brothers.

The doctrine of Eternal Salvation or Salvation Security, whatever you want to call it, is far more dangerous than questioning the Trinity.

Catholic here. Some dude in this thread was trying to say itd be ok if catholics did it. No, i disagree, its not ok to burn people like that (obviously, that guy was just some troll). But there is a difference here between protestant and catholic. Catholics believe that the core ideas of doctrine are infallible, that when the ancient councils of the early church got together to figure out the trinity, they were ultimately guided by God. They believe this due to scripture "(gates of hell shall not prevail") and you can add common sense as a bonus (why would God not protect his councils from wrongdoing? Why would he lead his people astray in fundamental theological knowledge? Not in human sin but in discerning what the truth is as the church built on peter and christ's body).

So, basically, prots broke from this when they went against major church teachings (papists r dum its not the real blood and flesh) and turned scripture interpretation into what felt most right, and went against the already built tradition of the God guided councils. So, if a catholic questions trinity, theyre going against church tradition and cant be catholics. But if a protestant questions the trinity, he's simply doing what all the others did, questioning already affirmed ideas theough his own interpretation, with no regard to the incorruptibility of doctrine. So that if his idea is scripturally sound, and trust me it probably is (as in, theres passages supporting it, no matter how weak the logic is, from a purely empirical way its there, for more on this recommend you look into jehovahs witnesses or mormons and stuff), your left to bickering about which interpretation is better.

>>259342

there absolutely is a difference between protestants and catholics. At least, I think. Mostly I can say that Protestants are further removed from the idolism and mystical unknowable rites of the Catholic Church. However, the Reformers went after what they considered heretics just as the Catholics did. They both side on point that doctrine of men, councils, etc. are plenty of excuse for murder, division, excommunication.

We are not called to persecute or to War. However Christians do so in order to secure their earthly kingdom of doctrine.

>>254351

Ezekiel 9

>6 Utterly destroy old and young, maidens, children and women: but upon whomsoever you shall see Thau, kill him not, and begin ye at my sanctuary. So they began at the ancient men who were before the house.

>7 And he said to them: Defile the house, and ill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew them that were in the city.

>8 And the slaughter being ended I was left: and I fell upon my face, and crying, I said: Alas, alas, alas, O Lord God, wilt thou then destroy all the remnant of Israel, by pouring out thy fury upon Jerusalem?

>9 And he said to me: The iniquity of the house of Israel, and of Juda, is exceeding great, and the land is filled with blood, and the city is filled with perverseness: for they have said: The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

>10 Therefore neither shall my eye spare, nor will I have pity: I will requite their way upon their head.

>11 And behold the man that was clothed with linen, that had the inkhorn at his back, returned the word, saying: I have done as thou hast commanded me.

It was probably not just, but it had to be done and God wanted it to be done.

Re: Servetus.. copypasta'd this from elsewhere:

* The sensibilities of the 16th century were quite different from those prevalent today. Atttacks on the trinity were taken rather seriously back then as endangering the public order, tempting weak persons into soul destroying damnable heresy, and a challenge to the political structures of society.

* Servetus was condemned to death by the Roman Catholics prior to his ill-fated visit to Geneva.

* Calvin was an "expert witness" in the trial, not the one entrusted with the authority of the sword. He was not even granted bourgois status in Geneva until 1559 (6 years after Servetus' death) and his popularity was at a particularly low ebb in 1553 when Servetus was put on trial.

* The Council sought the opinion of surrounding cantons, receiving the unanimous recommendation to execute Servetus.

* Everyone on all sides in Calvin's day agreed with the execution.

* During an era when hundreds of people were executed in Germany and religious atrocities were not uncommon (cf. Peasants' War in 1525 and the Münster Rebellion of January 1534), Calvin's quarter century combined tenure in Geneva was marked by all of ONE religious execution . . . Servetus (banishment was more common, I count the case of Jacques Gruet as civil, not religious).

* Calvin and the Genevan ministers petitioned the court to mitigate the sentence of Servetus by a more humane method of execution than burning. They were denied.

* Calvin made several efforts to persuade Servetus to repent.

>>259371

Don't you Protestants have a bible to worship?

>>259333

>>259333

same poster as above

I would like to point out that the matter of the Trinity is so complex I am not at the point where I can either say Trinity is the right word or not. I can also not say whether *anyone* is wrong regarding their belief or disbelief.

What I want to make clear is that the idea of a Holy Spirit is set forth in the Bible. It may not be in passages of great detail, but I think collective study of Hebrew, verb tense, Greek, previous students of such should all be exhausted no less than 3 times itself before we dangerously rally against anything the Bible states.

With difficulty we are each supposed to study and learn the God's Word, if it is our handbook to life and the next life, there is no reason why it shouldn't be our most beloved and thoroughly learned friend.