/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

No

No. I believe she probably thought that she was a prophet, but what she was experiencing were epileptic visions because of a brain injury. She also apparently plagiarized a lot of her writings. She was wrong about something significant happening in 1844. She was wrong a vegan diet being superior or more spiritual. She never made any stunningly accurate predictions that I'm aware of. I do think her church is right about a few things though. Such as soul sleep and historicism. But those were taught by many mainstream protestants long before her.

>>257215

Certainly not.

>>257225

>soul sleep

What's that? Some John XXII-tier stuff?

>>257251

I don't actually like that term 'soul sleep', it's not really accurate but it seems to have stuck. It's basically the doctrine that when we die we are truly dead (as if asleep) until the coming resurrection, when God raises us up again in immortal spiritual bodies.

>>257251

You know how Protestants like to tell Catholics to quit asking saints to pray for them? "Soul sleep" is one of the mental gymnastic routines they use to reconcile the attitude of "who cares they're dead" with the promise of eternal life.

>>257215

If by their fruits we shall know them, then a Judaizing sect that came from a Great Disappointment isn't a very appealing fruit.

>>257286

>You know how Protestants like to tell Catholics to quit asking saints to pray for them? "Soul sleep" is one of the mental gymnastic routines they use to reconcile the attitude of "who cares they're dead" with the promise of eternal life.

All through the Old Testament it says when we die, we're dead, and that the dead don't know anything, it doesn't give a lot of support for eternal conscious life after death. Jesus gave us the hope of the resurrection which is what is spoken of all throughout the New Testament, it talks constantly about the resurrection of the dead in spiritual bodies, and not so much about going to heaven immediately upon dying. There are a couple of verses which seem to support that but not really if you understand them properly and there are far more agreeing with what I'm saying. "Ye shall not surely die" was the first lie the serpent told in the garden of Eden and people are still falling for it.

What on earth would the point be of the future resurrection spoken of in the Bible if we were already in heaven immediately after death?

Deuteronomy 31:16 (KJV) [8]

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers…

Job 7:21 (ESV) [10]

…For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be.”

Job 14:12-14 (ESV)

(12) so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.

(13) Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

(14) If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Psalm 6:5 (ESV)

For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Psalm 30:9 (ESV)

“What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?

Psalm 49:12, 14 and 15 (ESV)

(12) Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish.

(14) Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning [at their resurrection]. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.

(15) But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah

Psalm 115:17 (ESV)

The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 and 10 (ESV)

(4) But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

(6) Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Isaiah 26:19 (ESV)

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

Isaiah 38:18 (ESV)

For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.

Daniel 12:1 and 2 (ESV)

(1) “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

(2) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ezekiel 37:12-14 (ESV)

(12) Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.

(13) And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.

(14) And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD.”

John 3:13 (ESV)

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Matthew 22:23-32 (ESV)

(23) The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question,

(24) saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up children for his brother.’

(25) Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother.

(26) So too the second and third, down to the seventh.

(27) After them all, the woman died.

(28) In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”

(29) But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

(31) And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:

(32) ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

Luke 14:14 (ESV)

and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

John 11:21-26 (ESV)

(21) Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.

(22) But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you.”

(23) Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

(24) Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

(25) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

(26) and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Acts 4:1 and 2 (ESV)

(1) And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them,

(2) greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:42, 51 and 52 (ESV)

(42) So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

(51) …We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (ESV)

(13) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

(14) For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

(15) For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

(17) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Revelation 20:4 and 5 (ESV)

(4) Then I saw…the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus…. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

(5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:11-13 (ESV)

(11) Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

(12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

(13) And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades [the grave] gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Who is this woman?

>>257875

Ellen White, co-founder of the Seventh Day Adventist church.

>>257286

I'm pretty sure it's acceptable to believe we don't reach heaven or hell until the last day. I believe that as an Orthodox.

Adventist here.

Yes.

But shes not Smith tier,she never made a new bible or extra biblical stuff.

she only interpreted the bible.

She supported Satuday worship, healthy living, non conscious hell, conditionalism(soul its not immortal per se), soul sleep.

I hope we can discuss about this in here, I hope I dont get banned because im Adventist.

>>258144

Orthodox Church has canonized saints friendo

That's people it says are in heaven and you are required to accept it if you're Orthodox

>>258193

I don't think you'd get banned as most Adventists are Trinitarian (at least nowadays) and don't put Ellen White's writings on the same level as scripture.

>>258198

No one regards her above the bible.

even in her own writings she says that the bible its the only authoritative source.

Everything she wrote was based on the bible

>>257293

>>257294

great stuff m8

>>257225

A vegan diet seems to be more healthy though

Daniel 1:5-6, 8-16

And the king appointed them a daily provision of the king's meat, and of the wine which he drank: so nourishing them three years, that at the end thereof they might stand before the king.

[6] Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:

[8] But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself. [9] Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.

[10] And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.

[11] Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,

[12] Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.

[13] Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.

[14] So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.

[15] And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.

[16] Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.

>>258295

you missed the point of the passage then. the miracle was that despite the fact that an all vegetable diet has no protein or carbs. Daniel and friends gained a lot of muscle and fat.

God used vegetables so that everyone would know they gained weight through a supernatural power and not through the food.

>>257225

An expert lawyer found no plagiarism

>Plagiarism: A Roman Catholic lawyer, Vincent L. Ramik, undertook a study of Ellen G. White's writings during the early 1980s, and concluded that they were "conclusively unplagiaristic."[101] When the plagiarism charge ignited a significant debate during the late 1970s and early 1980s, the Adventist General Conference commissioned a major study by Dr. Fred Veltman. The ensuing project became known as the "'Life of Christ' Research Project." The results are available at the General Conference Archives.[102] Dr. Roger W. Coon,[103] David J. Conklin,[104] Dr. Denis Fortin,[105][106] King and Morgan,[107] among others, undertook the refutation of the accusations of plagiarism. At the conclusion of Ramik's report, he states:

"It is impossible to imagine that the intention of Ellen G. White, as reflected in her writings and the unquestionably prodigious efforts involved therein, was anything other than a sincerely motivated and unselfish effort to place the understandings of Biblical truths in a coherent form for all to see and comprehend. Most certainly, the nature and content of her writings had but one hope and intent, namely, the furthering of mankind's understanding of the word of God. Considering all factors necessary in reaching a just conclusion on this issue, it is submitted that the writings of Ellen G. White were conclusively unplagiaristic."[108]

>1884

1884 made simple. video related

And as long for predictions, she not a fucking magic 8 ball. Most apostles never made such bold statements.

>>258304

I'm not gonna watch a 2 hour movie on this topic, do you have something more accessible? From what I understand they claim that Jesus entered a heavenly sanctuary in 1844, which of course is something invisible that nobody can confirm or deny, they originally thought it would be God cleansing the earth with fire, and when that didn't happen they retconned it and said that actually Jesus just did something invisible on that date that no one can prove one way or the other. To me the more obvious answer is that their understanding of prophecy was wrong, the timeline was off, etc. They just tried to save face. If you have any proof showing otherwise that won't take me two hours to get to the point I'm all ears.

>>258384

What is the heavenly sanctuary? And how does it being cleansed affect anything for us here on earth, or change our relationship to God? What changed in practical terms in 1844?

I'm extremely skeptical about all that. I need to do more research on Bible prophecy in general but I will probably not devote much time to the Adventist timeline, at least until I read more about other perspectives which I imagine I would find more credible.

>>258479

Dude, all those questions are answered in the video I posted in this thread earlier.

Let me start by saying that this method of interpreting the scriptures are nothing new. It was the main and only method up until the counter reformation.

This method its known as Historicism. There are two others: Preterism, Futurism. This two says that the prophecies were fulfilled already, and the latter that its going to be in some distant time. And Idealism, that its ust nonsense. Nobody takes it seriously.

Historicism its that it has been and its going to be fulfilled during all of history. Some have been already, some are going to be.

I encourage you to watch the video since it probably explains it better than me kek

The concept of Heavenly Sactuary come from Daniel 8. In which Daniel sees the 4 beasts, An angel asked, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled?" Another angel responds, "It will take 2300 evenings and mornings and then the sanctuary will be cleansed."

You probably know about the beats, so let me skip that.

If you dont then see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_historicist_interpretations_of_Bible_prophecy#Chapter_8_-_The_Sanctuary_prophecy

That link gives the historict view of christians during the past.

So what sanctuary its the angel talking about?

Hebrews 8:1-5 -

"The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

The point of 1844 its basically that shows that we are truly on the end of times.

When studying Daniel visions, its clearly showed that the Sanctuary was going to cleansed *before* the the 2nd Coming of Christ.

>>258302

Vegetables Do have proteins and and carbohydrates like beans and wheat

>>257290

also, what would be the point of a Judgement day, if we are sent to heaven or hell right after we die?

>>258525

I know a little bit about historicism. I'd like to learn more about what the other protestants who used that approach to prophecy taught, and see if their versions of the timeline have merit.

The Great Disappointment seems like a major problem with the Adventist timeline, and the fact that they originally thought something visible would be happening and only changed their understanding of it when that failed to come to pass.

It reminds me of other false prophecies like that Harold Camping guy, he predicted the world would end on May 21, 2011. When that didn't happen he said May 21st was the 'spiritual' judgement day and that the actual end times would be on October 2011. Changing the goal posts, changing interpretations when what was originally expected fails to materialize, etc. Doesn't fill me with a ton of confidence.

Maybe I'll get around to watching that video once I've studied more on other interpretations but for those reasons learning about the Adventist interpretation is not at the top of my list.

>>258739

It's quite possible the judgment day for people is the moment they die. As for demons things are different but they will get theirs.

>>257288

Traditionally, it was said that everyone was in Sheol until Jesus died and rose from the grave, which lead to the current state of people going to heaven or hell when they die.

>>258910

How long after Christ is there a record of the church fathers teaching this?

And how does the final judgement and the resurrection fit into that scenario?

bump