/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>259424

>what are the theological differences between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy I should know about?

Catholicism uses Anselmian satisfaction theology, where sin is considered a debt to God that must be payed off, and Christ was crucified in order to pay off Adam's debt, and from this you get all sorts of retarded shit like indulgences and such. Orthodoxy considers sin to be a disease, a parasite that eats away at the soul, which can be healed through fasting, penitence and prayer, and views Christ's Crucifixion as a victory over the powers of Hades and death, not as a solemn affair to sacrifice an atonement to God. Besides that, Catholicism tends to be more intellectual in nature, whereas Orthodoxy tends to be more spiritual and mystical in nature. In Catholicism, a great saint would be considered a preeminent theologian with many intellectual works under his name, in Orthodoxy, an old Russian Babushka who's lived a simple life of prayer and penitence. There's a vast world of differences that it would be difficult to get into here.

>>259424

>Is conversion feasible even though I am already bapthized?

Obviously. It is never too late.

>Do I have to relinquish my bapthism?

You will most likely have to rebaptized, in Orthodox baptize in the traditional way, through full triple immersion, whereas Catholics just sprinkle water on someone's head.

>Do all orthodox liturgies use traditional Latin chants?

Orthodoxy does not use Latin. They use the Liturgies written by St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great in antiquity. If you mean chant, all Orthodox music is vocal and chant, no instruments.

>Is there any important orthodox theologian I should read about

If you're looking for a good introductory book, ID recommend Frederica Matthewes-Green's Welcome o the Orthodox Church.

>>259426

Thanks based anon, bless you.

>Orthodoxy does not use Latin. They use the Liturgies written by St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great in antiquity.

So they use the literal translations of their writings or…? I'm guessing the original language to be Greek?

What's important to me is that they stick to using ancient/ historically revered prayers.

Here most catholic prayer books are written by literal nobodies in recent years (after the Vatican council II at least) - with scarce metric and symbolic beauty, only exceptions are Easter / Christmas and Annunciation prayers which use translations. It sounds somewhat inappropriate to me, but I might just be hard-headed over nothing.

>>259427

Orthodox dont pull prayers out of their asses like Catholics do, all the prayers are from the great hymnogrophers of antiquity. Orthodoxy has never had an issue with praying in the vernacular, but the Liturgies are the ancient ones, they'll just be translations.

Orthodox liturgies are all translated into the language of the respective peoples. For example in Russia the liturgy will be in Russian. If you are going to a church that's abroad chances are the liturgy will be in the language of the people who founded to community, so in my case it's in Serbian even though we also have non-Serbs attending.

This has a very simple reason: the people need to understand what is going on, why they are attending service. Otherwise the priest might as well be speaking Klingon, if the people just go to church as an obligation it's worthless. Of course the translations have been carefully made by people who are versed in it so nothing gets butchered in the process.

>>259432

>>259426

>muh muh speshul snowflake

>the early bishops had power over the church, b-but the current ones dont!

>the bishops stopped being successors of the apostles after x amount of time

Calm down and realize what youre doing and saying. I dont even hate on orthos, but when they want to flaunt their special snowflake "conservatism" like if they werent seperate from the seat of peter, it really begins to grind my gears.

>>259629

Aren't both Serbs and Russians supposed to use Church Slavonic?

Goes to show, there are modernists in both the RCC and EOC.

>>259720

I don't know what the language is called, it's not modern-day Serbian, but I can still understand it.

Weird, I just never thought about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic_language

>>259426

>Orthodoxy does not use Latin.

So they made an entire language anathema?

I find this hard to believe. That would make them straight up Anderson-tier heretics, I can't take that seriously.

>>259771

Find a LARPing club if that's what you are looking for, you only seem to be interested in "muh secret language" and and cool robes.

>>259780

You don't even know what language is spoken in your own Divine Liturgy. Who are you calling a LARPer?

Besides, Eastern vestments and habits are way cooler than Latin ones, I'll give you that. But that's not unique to Eastern Orthodoxy.

>>259681

>Calm down and realize what youre doing and saying. I dont even hate on orthos, but when they want to flaunt their special snowflake "conservatism" like if they werent seperate from the seat of peter, it really begins to grind my gears.

They're starting to act an awful lot like protestants, at least online. The ones I've met in person, on the other hand, have been perfectly cordial and confident in their knowledge of their faith. Makes me seriously question the sincerity of some of the ones who claim to be Orthodox here.

>>259841

I wouldn't blame Orthos for that; I'd blame being on /christian/.

>>259427

The Latin Mass has been structurally the same for almost 2000 years. The Canon of the Mass, the most sacred part of the Mass, has remained largely untouched since the time of Pope Gregory I (590–604).

>>259426

>In Catholicism, a great saint would be considered a preeminent theologian with many intellectual works under his name, in Orthodoxy, an old Russian Babushka who's lived a simple life of prayer and penitence

lol, no. The majority of catholic saints didn't write anything. The only requirements to be considered a saint is

1 - Having lived a holy life.

2 - Having at least 2 miracles attributed (and confirmed) to your intercession.

Alternatively, you can be considered a saint if you died as a martyr.

>Orthodox baptize in the traditional way, through full triple immersion

Do you have a single proof to back that up?

>>259868

That's certainly no excuse to engage in anabaptism.

>>259868

Right, but

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Inconsequential_Views_Before_AD_300

>>259788

>It's like if you wrong someone, and they say, "Okay, I'll forgive you, but someone's gotta pay!

But that is not wrong. Specially when we are talking about a debt we can't pay.

Suppose I am very rich and I have a very poor friend, and this friend ends up crashing his car into some millionaire's lamborghini. Now, I can't be guilty of his mistake, but, If he accepts it and the owner of the lamborghini accepts it, I can pay for the damage. He would still be guilty, but he won't need to pay his debt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_theory_of_atonement#St._Thomas_Aquinas_codifies_the_substitution_theory

>>259874

>How is being received by baptism anabaptist?

>>259426 talks about rebaptising those who are already baptised, which is anabaptism.

Anabaptism is sacrilege, and there's clearly an element of pride involved here. I get it that affusion isn't the preferred way in Eastern Orthodoxy, but to deny the work of the Holy Spirit just to prove a point? Or reduce baptism to a mere symbol as the protestants do?

>>259875

So what is the purpose of the Passion?

Also, keep in mind that God is infinitely just. Someone has to pay.

>>259888 Here.

>>259875

Keep this in mind:

Aquinas claims that we can make satisfaction for our own sin, and that our problem is not our personal sin, but original sin. "Original sin…is an infection of human nature itself, so that, unlike actual sin, it could not be expiated by the satisfaction of a mere man." Thus Christ, as the "second Adam," does penance in our place – paying the debt of our original sin."

Now that this has been said, I'm getting really confused here. I guess I need some time to think, I'm coming up with some really confusing concepts in my mind.

>>259896

>ayy

What's the problem?

>All of these are attested to by the Church Fathers, unlike the satisfaction theory of atonement.

The satisfaction theory is merely a development upon the previous work of the Fathers.

>>259877

Also, as for denying the work of the Holy Spirit, is it really so strange to say that the Holy Spirit only acts within the Church?

>>259898

>Also, as for denying the work of the Holy Spirit, is it really so strange to say that the Holy Spirit only acts within the Church?

I found it very hard to believe that only a validly ordained Orthodox Priest can baptize someone in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

>>259896

>The term "rebaptism" presupposes that the original baptism was grace-filled. But is it? This is the question being posed.

The Swiss Anabaptists of course maintained that they were not anabaptists because of this reason. But in this case (and in the case of the Swiss Anabaptists) I don't see how we can make that case. It's surely using proper form (though maybe not the preferred form), matter, and since the minister is even an ordained priest, surely not even his intention.

>I, personally, was baptized Baptist, and I was received into the Orthodox Church by chrismation, not by baptism. But was my baptism grace-filled, or was it retroactively bestowed with grace by my chrismation?

I think this could be made open for discussion with some of the more whack-a-doodle denominations that might have a vested interest in blocking any possible remission of sins or sanctifying grace, that they might try to "sabotage" the sacrament by withholding intention. But I doubt any of them are even capable of this train of thought, and even so, it needs to be a conditional baptism.

>>259946

>surely not even his intention

*surely not even his intention can be doubted.

>>259910

>Orthodox don't follow the Augustinian doctrine of original sin

I know that. And to that, I say: ayy.

>>259949

What about all the ortho converts that are recieved by chrismation?