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Alex here, I'm back. I'll make a SAFemail ASAP for those who'd like to contact me. 1-8-16

File: 1457842566140.png (282.56 KB, 625x941, 625:941, 1456767164903.png)

b45aef No.260234

How can Protestants defend these?

>Sola Scriptura

Using bibles with missing books and changed words to fit Luther's agenda.

KJV 1611 has many spelling mistakes because writers weren't properly trained in Greek. also written for political purposes.

>Sola Fide

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27

"For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26

"Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in. Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." Matthew 25:34-36

Read

http://www.protestanterrors.com/

http://www.acatholicthinker.net/sola-fide/

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies

http://realromancatholic.com/2013/10/08/the-heresy-of-sola-scriptura/

26df5d No.260244

File: 1457846017780.jpg (14.85 KB, 400x264, 50:33, John Paul kisses Koran.jpg)


b45aef No.260245

>>260244

I don't defend that, I condemn it.


78de1e No.260248

>Using bibles with missing books and changed words to fit Luther's agenda.

Apocrypha are ridiculous Greek fanfic involving dragons and elves and were never accepted as canon by the Israelites.

>KJV 1611 has many spelling mistakes because writers weren't properly trained in Greek. also written for political purposes.

The original manuscripts were divinely inspired, and the versions we have today are relatively faithful to those.

Saging for Romanism.


ab24d5 No.260274

>>260248

>dragons and elves

I agree; totally less believable than someone rising from the dead.

>never accepted as canon by the Israelites

Good goy, let the Christ-murderinging Jews dictate your scriptural canon.


a1eaf7 No.260276

>>260274

Fuck off /pol/.


ab24d5 No.260278

File: 1457854807524.jpg (18.63 KB, 256x320, 4:5, 1444969668354-0.jpg)

>>260276

Good try boyo, but I'm not /pol/. I'm just a Christian who believes, as our fathers did, that the Jews (religion, not ethnicity) murdered our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. And that they therefore should not be trusted in matters of faith.


67fd0e No.260297

>>260274

>Good goy, let the Christ-murderinging Jews dictate your scriptural canon.

Surely you don't hate all Israelites throughout all of time do you? You know the Bible was written almost entirely by people of that background? They had their own canon (I'm talking about before Christ) and the Greek dragon fanfic was not part of it. Jesus was a Judahite, Paul was a Benjamite which is part of the house of Judah. Jesus quoted the Bible of his time in the temple and he didn't include those expansions.


531d0e No.260302

>>260234

Why don't you watch some debates.

For a debate on justification watch the;

Sungenesis (Roman Catholic) v. White (Protestant/Reformed Baptist) debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZc4D-UrAeU

Thompson (Protestant/Reformed Baptist vs Dimond (Sedavantacist) debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bynoSQmyAss

A debate on sola scriptura;

Roman Catholic side: Sungenis, Madrid, Marshner v. Horton (Reformed Episcopalian), Godfrey (Reformed), Rosenbladt (Lutheran)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHM7xVRdh5U

Fr. Pacwa (Roman Catholic) v. White (Protestant/Reformed Baptist) debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxTEtArbCgs

Matatics (Roman Catholic) v. White (Protestant/Reformed Baptist) debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYWBwIvejY


124d4d No.260304

>Surely you don't hate all Israelites throughout all of time do you?

Jews who lived during that age were call the Anti-Christ and the Synagogue of Satan in the Bible. So YES I think we should be weary their decisions regarding sacred text.

>They had their own canon (I'm talking about before Christ) and the Greek dragon fanfic was not part of it.

Yes, it was called the Septuagint. Yes, it had the deuterocanon.

>Jesus quoted the Bible of his time in the temple and he didn't include those expansions.

So if Jesus doesn't quote a book in the Gospels then it shouldn't be included in the OT? That's silly.

Protestant authors Archer and Chirichigno list 340 places where the New Testament cites the Septuagint but only 33 places where it cites from the Masoretic Text rather than the Septuagint (G. Archer and G. C. Chirichigno, Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey, 25-32).

http://jimmyakin.com/deuterocanonical-references-in-the-new-testament


ab24d5 No.260306

File: 1457856971924.jpg (2.06 MB, 2183x2885, 2183:2885, 1441945234268-1.jpg)

>>260297

>They had their own canon (I'm talking about before Christ) and the Greek dragon fanfic was not part of it.

Who told you that, the Masoretic Text which was assembled by Jews a thousand years after Christ? The Dead Sea Scrolls include Wisdom of Sirach, the Epistle of Jeremiah, Tobit, and Psalm 151. Not all of the "apocryphal" books, true, but enough to prove that your assertion is idiotic.

>Jesus quoted the Bible of his time in the temple and he didn't include those expansions.

If we're going by what's referenced in the New Testament, then we should probably exclude Judges, Ruth, Ezra, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Lamentations, Obadiah, and Zephaniah. And include the Assumption of Moses.


0718b4 No.260345

>>260276

It's a good point, actually. Why should Christians give precedence to a modern Rabbinic canon rather than the LXX?


531d0e No.260466

>>260345

Because different versions have different number of books. Compare Codex Vaticanus with Codex Alexandria.


0718b4 No.260496

>>260466

That really doesn't answer the question of why it's a good idea to incorporate rabbinic innovations in Christianity.


531d0e No.260499

>>260496

What's your evidence that the 39 books of the Torah are Rabbinic and that the ancient Jews considered the apocryphal text as inspired?


ab24d5 No.260502

File: 1457925680510.jpg (1.2 MB, 2119x2817, 2119:2817, 1441944952905.jpg)

>>260499

Many were included in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as I said. If you want to reject that, then I'd say my evidence for is around the same place as your evidence against.


531d0e No.260504

>>260502

Burden of proof is on you, since you are adding to the canon


ab24d5 No.260510

File: 1457926643436.jpg (113.68 KB, 432x576, 3:4, 1439127628916.jpg)

>>260504

And you're subtracting from it. You must explain yourself as well.


531d0e No.260512

>>260510

Different Orthodox churches have different books. So come on. It's on you. Romans 3:2 tells us God entrusted the canon of the OT with the Jews and the Jews recognize 39 books.


ab24d5 No.260514

File: 1457927440095.jpg (484.51 KB, 850x1052, 425:526, 1440820804406-3.jpg)

>>260512

>Jews recognize 39 books

The modern Jews from whom grace has departed accept 39 books, yes. Now prove to me that the Jews of 2000 years ago (the ones that hadn't rejected and murdered Christ) only accepted 39 books.


531d0e No.260521

>>260514

Bruce Metzger on the Apocrypha

“The early Christian Church, which began within the bosom of Palestinian Judaism, received her first Scriptures (the books of the Old Testament) from the Jewish synagogue. Since, however, the Gentile converts to Christianity could not read Hebrew, the Greek translation of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint), which many Jews had also come to use, was widely employed by the Church. Because of the antagonism which developed between the Synagogue and the Church, the Jews abandoned the use of the Greek Septuagint, and this circulated henceforth solely among the Christians. Almost the only manuscript copies of the Septuagint which have come down to us today were written by Christian scribes,” B. Metzger, An Introduction to the Apocrypha (Oxford 1977), 175.

“In the first place, the number of Apocryphal books is not identical in all copies of the Septuagint. This circumstance suggests that there was no fixed canon at Alexandria which included all of these peripheral books. In the second place, the manuscripts of the Septuagint which contain these disputed books were all copied by Christian scribes, and therefore cannot be used as indisputable proof that the *Jewish* canon included all the books in question. In the third place, though Philo, the greatest of the Jewish Hellenists in Alexandria, knew of the existence of the Apocrypha, he never once quoted from them, much less used them for the proof of doctrine, as he habitually uses most of the books of the Hebrew canon. It is extremely difficult, therefore, to believe that the Alexandrian Jews received these books as authoritative in the same sense as they received the Law and the Prophets,” ibid. 176-77.

“The question remains, however, how such books came to stand so closely associated with the canonical books as they do in the manuscripts of the Septuagint. In attempting to find at least a partial answer to this problem, it should not be overlooked that the change in production of manuscripts from the scroll-form to the codex or leaf-form must have had an important part to play in the ascription of authority to certain books on the periphery of the canon,” ibid. 177.

“The prevailing custom among the Jews was the production of separate volumes for each part of the Hebrew canon…When the codex or leaf-form of book production was adopted, however, it became possible for the first time to include a great number of separate books within the same two covers…For whatever reason the change was instituted, it now became possible for canonical and Apocryphal books to be brought into close physical juxtaposition. Books which heretofore had never been regarded by the Jews as having any more than a certain edifying significance were now placed by Christian scribes in one codex side by side with the acknowledged books of the Hebrew canon. Thus it would happen that what was first a matter of convenience in making such books of secondary status available among Christians became a factor in giving the impression that all of the books within such a codex were to be regarded as authoritative. Furthermore, as the number of Gentile Christians grew, almost none of whom had exact knowledge of the extent of the original Hebrew canon, it became more and more natural for quotations to be made indiscriminately from all the books included with the one Greek codex,” ibid. 177-78.


531d0e No.260523

>>260521

“From the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament an Old Latin Version was made, which of course also contained the Apocryphal books among the canonical books. It is not strange, therefore, that Greek and Latin Church Fathers of the second and third centuries, such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Cyprian (none of whom knew any Hebrew), quote the Apocrypha with the same formulas of citation as they use when referring to the books of the Old Testament. The small number of Fathers, however, who either had some personal knowledge of Hebrew (e.g. Origen and Jerome) or had made an effort to learn what the limits of the Jewish canon were (e.g. Melito of Sardis) were usually careful not to attribute canonicity to the Apocrypha books, though recognizing that they contain edifying material suitable for Christians to read,” ibid. 178.

“Whether it was owing to the influence of Origen or for some other reason, from the fourth century onward the Greek Fathers made fewer and fewer references to the Apocrypha as inspired. Theologians of the Eastern Church, such as Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Amphilochius, drew up formal lists of the Old Treatment Scriptures in which the Apocrypha do not appear,” ibid. 178-79.

“Subsequent to Jerome’s time and down to the period of the Reformation a continuous succession of the more learned Fathers and theologians in the West maintained the distinctive and unique authority of the books of the Hebrew canon. Such a judgment, for example, was reiterated on the very eve of the Reformation by Cardinal Ximenes in the preface of the magnificent Complutensian Polyglot edition of the Bible which he edited (1514-17). Moreover, the earliest Latin version of the Bible in modern times, made from the original languages by the scholarly Dominican, Sanctes Pagnini, and published at Lyons in 1528, with commendatory letters from Pope Adrian VI and Pope Clement VII, sharply separates the text of the canonical books from the text of the Apocryphal books…Even Cardinal Cajetan, Luther’s opponent, at Augsburg in 1518, gave unhesitating approval to the Hebrew canon in his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament, which he dedicated in 1532 to Pope Clement VII. He expressly called attention to Jerome’s separation of the canonical from the uncanonical books, and maintained that the latter must not be relied upon to establish points of faith, but used only for the edification of the faithful,” 180.

“It was not easy for all Roman Catholic scholars to acquiesce to the unequivocal pronouncement of full canonicity which the Council of Trent made regarding books which, for so long a time and by such high authorities even in the Roman Church (see above, p180), had been pronounced inferior. Yet, despite more than one attempt by noted Catholic scholars to reopen the question, this expanded form of the Bible has remained the Scriptural authority of the Roman Church,” ibid. 190).

“The position of Eastern Orthodox Churches regarding the canon of the Old Testament is not at all clear. On the one hand, since the Septuagint version of the Old Testament was used throughout the Byzantine period, it is natural that Greek theologians such as Andrew of Crete, Germanus, Theodore the Studite, and Theophylact of Bulgaria, should refer indiscriminately to Apocrypha and canonical books alike. Furthermore, certain Apocrypha are quoted as authoritative at the Seventh Ecumenical Council held at Nicaea in 787 and at the Council convened by Basil at Constantinople in 869. On the other hand, writers who raise the issue regarding the limits of the canon, such as John of Damascus and Nicephorus, express views which coincide with those of the great Athanasius, who adhered to the Hebrew canon,” ibid. 192-93.


531d0e No.260524

>>260523

“What was perhaps the most important synod in the history of the Eastern Church was convened at Jerusalem in 1672…The Synod expressly designated the books of Wisdom, Judith, Tobit, Bel and the Dragon, Maccabees (four books), and Ecclesiasticus as canonical,” ibid. 193-94.

“The position of the Russian Orthodox Church as regards the Apocrypha appears to have changed during the centuries. During the Middle Ages Apocryphal books of both the Old and the New Testament exerted a widespread influence in Slavic lands. In subsequent centuries Constantinople’s leadershp gave way to the Holy Synod ruling from St. Petersburg, whose members were in sympathy with the position of the Reformers. Through a similar influence emanating from the great universities of Kiev, Moscow, Petersburg, and Kazan, the Russian Church became united in its rejection of the Apocrypha. For example, the Longer Catechism drawn up by the Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow and approved by the Most Holy Governing Synod (Moscow, 1839) expressly omits the Apocrypha from the enumeration of the books of the Old Testament on the ground that ‘they do not exist in Hebrew’,” ibid. 194.

“As a result, there appears to be no unanimity on this subject of the canon in the Greek Orthodox Church today. Catechisms directly at variance with each other on this subject have received the Imprimatur of Greek Ecclesiastical authorities, and the Greek clergy may hold and teach what they please about it,” ibid. 195.


eb9bbe No.260528

>>260524

>>260523

>>260521

>All this historical disinfo

>Ignoring the fact that Jesus and the apostles quote the Septuagint to the Greeks

>Ignoring Church councils that affirm the deuterocanon in the early church


ab24d5 No.260529

>>260521

>>260523

>>260524

Some interesting stuff you have here. I'll have to do some research of my own for anything other than a meme response. I'm not much one for copypasta.


531d0e No.260530

>>260528

Disinfo by a reputable Bible scholar? Yes.

Of course Jesus quoted from the LXX but none of the disciples quote from the apocrypha.


531d0e No.260531

>>260529

It's quality pasta mi amor


eb9bbe No.260533


ab24d5 No.260534

>>260530

>Of course Jesus quoted from the LXX but none of the disciples quote from the apocrypha.

See >>260306. If we're going by NT quotations, we've gotta take out a hefty bit of the OT.


45c4d1 No.260544

>>260248

>The original manuscripts were divinely inspired, and the versions we have today are relatively faithful to those.

How is it divinely inspired?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUTlvAsLyPM


531d0e No.260571

>>260544

He meant that the original Greek and Hebrew are inspired. That's because they claim to be inspired and as Christians (read not Romanists or Easterners) God tells us they are. Since they were authored by people under his inspiration.


0718b4 No.260598

>>260499

The Torah has only 5 books, and has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

>>260512

>Romans 3:2 tells us God entrusted the canon of the OT with the Jews and the Jews recognize 39 books.

He obviously doesn't mean to trust any idiot who claims to be Jewish and tells you to start tearing out pages of the Bible. If that's the case, why don't you tear out the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament too? Don't you trust what "G-d's chosen people" have written in their Talmud about "Yoshke"? By your logic that should be just as divinely inspired.


531d0e No.260599

>>260598

You are thinking of the Pentateuch

> He obviously doesn't mean to trust any idiot who claims to be Jewish and tells you to start tearing out pages of the Bible

Given your first statement I'd consider you rethink what you are saying.

Israel was an ethno-religious nation. The Jews as a collective had decided upon these books.


0718b4 No.260601

>>260599

>You are thinking of the Pentateuch

The Pentateuch is the Torah. I was talking about the entire Old Testament the entire time.

>Israel was an ethno-religious nation. The Jews as a collective had decided upon these books.

Yes, so why not trust that decision (obviously at the same time accepting the addition of the NT) instead of paying heed to rabbinical fabrications?


110108 No.260613

Daily reminder that sola scriptura was impossible until either 397 when the bible was compiled or early 2nd century when the last part of the New Testament was written.

You can just not defend sola scriptura and claim that christians could exist (including Paul) before the 2nd century.

I'm still going easy, not counting the 95% illiteracy and the fact that the bible was only compiled by the cathodox in 397.


fc3d25 No.260622

>Matthew 16:27

"works" refers to the fact that your righteous deeds will be rewarded in heaven, not rewarded with the ticket to heaven. the whole reason why we are rewarded in heaven for our righteous deeds is because God doesn't want us to think we're getting our ticket to heaven through our good deeds… like when someone gives you a free car, and then the next day when you clean the car for the person, they give you wages for cleaning it.. so you know you aren't cleaning the car as payment for the free gift of the car

>James 2:26

refers to an empty spoken faith (James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone SAYS he has faith but does not have works? Can THAT faith save him?… James 2;26 is still referring to a spoken faith)


7c639a No.260792

>>260599

Tanakh is the whole Jewish canon. Torah is only the first five Mosaic books. There were Jews in the past who only accepted the first five books, but for everyone else and in this context, we're clearly talking about the Tanakh.




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