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File: 6dcf760645a48e2⋯.png (66.98 KB, 153x250, 153:250, CMRICoatOfArms.png)

4a8393 No.587895

Hey /christian/, I know this is a bit of a blog post, but I was wondering if I could get some advice from Catholics on what to do with a dilemma I'm dealing with. I was recently told by a Sedevacantist that if I confess to any priests who practice Novus Ordo Mass and/or became priests after the 2nd Vatican council, I will not be absolved of my sins and am practicing a false faith. Any kind of SSPX, FSSP, and any church simply offering Traditional Latin Mass is false, and that I should be following a Sedevacantist church instead. Yet, at the same time, I know that the very fact that they don't view the pope as genuine is a fallacy. At the same time, the church has become so modernistic, I just don't know what to do. Is it okay for me to still attend Traditional Latin Mass at my church, or should I attend a Sedevacantist Parish?

9bac8c No.587902

>>587895

The Church is not modernistic and Sedes are just dumb protestants in disguise. Whenever you ask someone about the Catholic faith and he mentions that he's sede in any way discard the opinion and ignore it.


9bac8c No.587904

>>587902

to add: If someone says "I'm a Catholic, BUT …", they're really just saying they aren't Catholic. Sede protestants included


327b41 No.587907

>>587895

>I was recently told by a Sedevacantist

Stopped reading there


0bd884 No.587908

>>587895

Sedevacantists believe that Vatican II taught the heresy of modernism, and so they say the Roman Church run by the Vatican is a break off sect. They call it the “Vatican II sect.” Unfortunately for them, V2 didn’t really change any doctrine, so it can’t have been preaching any heresy. Sedevacantism is a fundamentally nonsensical sect of Christianity, you’d be better off either becoming truly Protestant or remaining Catholic. If you decide apostolic Christianity is true but you don’t like the RCC, become Orthodox instead of joining the nonsense sedevacantist group.

t. lapsed


4a8393 No.587912

>>587902

Well, sometimes I'm not sure I like the way how the church is now. I'm not a fan of Novus Ordo mass, and question its legitimacy, but at the same time, I don't think that, unless it's a complete blasphemy of a mass, will it lead to someone's damnation nor a priest that practices it not be able to absolve someone of their sins.


d3831e No.587913

>>587895

Sedes went too far. Sure, V2 has almost ruined the Church, but the priest ordinations are valid, provided that bishops do them by the book. Sadly, there are examples of bishops changing the ordination rite to such an extent that the ordination is not valid, but in the vast majority of cases priests are valid priests.


9bac8c No.587916

>>587912

Ask yourself: Why are you "not a fan" of Novus Ordo Missae ?

V2 was an ecumenical council by all standards. Its doctrines are perfectly valid and perfectly orthodox. There is no blasphemy, no heresy, no nothing. It's all just slander and stupidity from people that have no clue.

>>587913

You, sir, are - frankly speaking, an idiot.


d3831e No.587917

>>587916

>You, sir, are - frankly speaking, an idiot.

Nothing I said was wrong. If you're gonna argue the V2 didn't grievously injure the Church, you're the idiot.


6adc94 No.587918

File: 9e1ee0fd4e30faa⋯.jpg (2.42 MB, 1818x2593, 1818:2593, 9e1ee0fd4e30faae48874f95fa….jpg)

>>587895

Avoid sedevacantists, don't read their writings; they can be very convincing if you don't know much about theology, especially pre-VII theology, which is why sedevacantism, an after all schismatic movement, is extremely dangerous. Their arguments and talking points can be debunked - but don't expect yourself to be able to, because most probably you don't know enough and will be left with doubts and scrupulosity.

All of this may sound harsh, but schism is a very grave sin, cutting you off from the Church outside of which there is no salvation; and carelessly exposing yourself to a real and proximate danger of mortal sin like this is obviously evil. Remember how Satan tried to convince Eve to sin in the Paradise? Do you think she would have eaten the fruit if she immediately fled the serpent instead of staying and listening to his arguments?


4a8393 No.587919

>>587916

For a very long time, I exclusively went to Novus Ordo Mass. It bored me to tears, and I felt so out of tune that I eventually stopped being a practicing Catholic for 6 years. I recently discovered the Traditional Latin Mass, and when I attended, I felt something I never felt before. It was so relaxing, more respectful, and actually felt like God's presence was there.


15ba9b No.587921

>>587912

You're not supposed to like it. It's not a club.

You're a nobody layman without formal education in theology or ecclesiastical history, but you dare to question the legitimacy of the rite of the Mass.

Well, guess what, the reward of humility is the fear of the Lord, richness, glory and life.

>>587917

Here's another self-made prophet, who knows the ways of the Lord.

He knows the consequences of the Vatican Council, what would have happened without it, he esteems himself above the Teaching Church and appoints himself supreme judge of judges.

Publicans and prostitutes will precede pharisees and scribes.


d3831e No.587924

>>587921

Prophet? Have you read about the Church history in the last 50 years? I'm not talking about the future, the fruits of V2 are already long manifest.

Here's some stats about USA alone

>Priests. After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020,3 there will be about 31,000 priests—–and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70. Right now there are more priests aged 80 to 84 than there 1 are aged 30 to 34.

>Ordinations. In 1965 there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood, in 2002 there were 450, a decline of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

>Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700—–a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

etc, etc.

By their fruits you shall know them, right? To be perfectly honest, I consider people who think there was absolutely nothing wrong with V2 worse and more dangerous than any protestant or any muslim.


6adc94 No.587925

File: 0f0cf2b82376abf⋯.jpg (102.97 KB, 640x960, 2:3, 0f0cf2b82376abff4e8c80fb2b….jpg)

>>587919

>actually felt like God's presence was there.

As prophet Jeremiah says, heart is deceitful above all things. It's true that God is physically present in the Tridentine Mass; but he is equally present in the Novus Ordo Mass. Trust God and the Church that He guides, not your feelings.


d3831e No.587931

>>587921

I'll also leave this here and I'm not gonna waste my time arguing, here's a quote from then cardinal Ratzinger:

>“Certainly, the results [of Vatican II] seem cruelly opposed to the expectations of everyone, beginning with those of Pope John XXIII and then of Paul VI: expected was a new Catholic unity and instead we have been exposed to dissension which—to use the words of Paul VI—seems to have gone from self-criticism to self-destruction. Expected was a new enthusiasm, and many wound up discouraged and bored. Expected was a great step forward, and instead we find ourselves faced with a progressive process of decadence which has developed for the most part precisely under the sign of a calling back to the Council, and has therefore contributed to discrediting for many. The net result therefore seems negative. I am repeating here what I said ten years after the conclusion of the work: it is incontrovertible that this period has definitely been unfavorable for the Catholic Church.”

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger,

L’Osservatore Romano (English edition),

24 December 1984


6adc94 No.587937

>>587931

>Sadly, there are examples of bishops changing the ordination rite to such an extent that the ordination is not valid, but in the vast majority of cases priests are valid priests.

If this is happening in your diocese, then, if I remember correctly, you should be able to report this directly to the Vatican.


368f23 No.587940

You could interpret Vatican II however you want because it's not scripture. Some say it means one thing others say it means another, so everyone can be happy in their aesthetic experience. Meanwhile, the word of God and its meaning never changes. So I don't really see why you would demote it to second tier like this.


d0b600 No.587955

OP, this reads like a worldly dilemma. I'm gonna re-word your post for you…to put it in a different perspective:

Hey /christian/, I know this is a bit of a blog post, but I was wondering if I could get some advice from Catholics on what to do with a dilemma I'm dealing with. I was recently told by <someone who is not God> that if I confess to any priests who practice <some worldly thing> and/or became priests after <some worldly thing>, I will not be absolved of my sins and am practicing a false faith. Any kind of <some worldly things>, and any church simply offering <some worldly thing> is false, and that I should be following a <some worldly thing> church instead. Yet, at the same time, I know that the very fact that they don't view <someone who is not God> as genuine is a fallacy. At the same time, the church has become so <some worldly thing>, I just don't know what to do. Is it okay for me to still attend <some worldly thing> at my church, or should I attend a <some worldly thing>?

Just an observation.


9bac8c No.587958

>>587931

>>587924

The Church doesn't exist in vacuum. The numbers of seminarians and ordinations were declining heavily also before V2. If you argue that V2 is literally the reason for that after '65, you're blatantly ignoring especially to societal changes in the States since then.

To you quote: First of all it is nowhere to be foud except in blog posts and articles which aren't the source. So it already is fishy. But let's pretend it wasn't just made up: What does the quote say ? "The Council didn't have the success we hoped for". It just means that in a terrible period for the Church, the council wasn't able to eliminate the negative effects of the social revolution.

Did the council of Trent stop the reformation ?

Did the councils of Chalcedon or Nicea not create tensions ?

Answer that for yourself and stop to intentionally misrepresent the council or the Church.


4a8393 No.587960

>>587955 (checked)

You do make a pretty good point there.


50dc29 No.587963

>>587895

If it can sober you up: the pope has excommunicated himself officially about a month ago by allowing communion to 'remarried' couples, a.k.a. people in grave sin.

>B-but muh exceptions!

No these aren't the general known exceptions, this is just a formally made ok for every priest to commit sacrilege.

If you ask yourself what happens now…well not much.

We just wait until he is dead or returns to the faith and by God's grace we get a good pope.

Until that time just go full borderline case and attend a Tridentine Mass whose parish is still in communion with Rome.

>>587958

The number of laity has severely dropped since V2, and I have yet to see decent statistics on the ordinations and seminarians pre-V2.


b40d6b No.587964

>>587963

Catholic Churches are doing badly numbers wise where I live. Only in immigrant areas are they strong, but only with the first generation. Their kids stop going like the rest of them. Even visitor numbers to the Vatican have been down, apparently.


4a8393 No.587965

>>587963

I genuinely believe the implementation of Novus Ordo mass caused a huge drop in attendance. Some are still modest and respectful, but others are absolute circus acts.


63f46f No.587966

>>587918

Name of the artist please?


95cabe No.587970

OP and anyone else who has Vat II/ad orientum anxiety, you need to read this http://scrupulousanonymous.org/2016/09/01/unfortunate-distractions-2/


20920a No.587972

>>587966

Bouguereau

good luck pronouncing it


c71b50 No.588140

>>587963

>>587963

This is something that really bothers me. If it's true, why aren't the bishops and Cardinals of the world up in arms? The young traditionalists? Anyone??


4a8393 No.588149

>>588140

I'm hoping we get a better pope. Our current one, I have a hard time enjoying his position of power he has on the church


5e644e No.588152

>>588149

"God some popes gives them as a a gift, others he tolerates them and some He sends them as punishment." St. Vincent of Lerin; but i'll give pope Francis this: all the heterodox Catholics are coming out of the woodwork thanks to him, and if God will send us a very traditional pope afterwards, these people will be unable to hide again and will have to either change for real or face excommunication. So I pray to God that He will give us someone like Cardinal Sarah as the next pope (can you imagine how the Left and Libs will react to something like that? He'd be unmovable on faith and tradition but they would be unable to criticize him too harshly for he is African…)


63c8c9 No.588170

I can't believe there's a militant progressive viciously defending VII here. Whenever there's something wrong with the church and things get discussed, the root cause is loosening of standards since VII. VII comes up always and not only on this board. Local SSPX group is unhappy about it as well.


50dc29 No.588193

>>588140

>If it's true, why aren't the bishops and Cardinals of the world up in arms?

Because right before he made any official heretical statements he did 2 things.

1) He maxed out the magisterium with cardinals

2) HE maxed it out, so he got rid of all the conservative cardinals as much as he could and instated new heretical ones.

Rumor also has it that he's waiting for Benetictus a.k.a. based papa Benny to die so that he can remove the Tridentine Mass.


b54e2f No.588649

>>588193

There's a rumour going around that Francis wants all Cardinals, bishops, priests and deacons to pledge loyalty to his magisterium. This would create a schism.


50dc29 No.588666

>>588649

I'm going to be honest here, I used to care but nowadays I'm just a guy going to my Tridentine Parish and not giving a single fugg anymore.

Let God sort it out, I can do nothing for now.


9bac8c No.588693

>>588170

SSPX are borderline sedes, who cares about their opinion.

>>588170

I'm not a militant progressive. I'm presenting the facts as they are, not as you want them to be.

I'm not the one to intentionally misinterpret and -represent V2 and the Pope, because he certainly does not do what fits my personal agenda.

Let me explain it for you slowly: V2 was a council that was called on in order to react to radical changes happening in the societies in the West around that time. Because the Church does not exist in vacuum. However, there is no modernism or anything sparking from it - in fact it was a perfectly orthodox council. One of the most well received and most successful changes was the liturgical reform. Novus Ordo Missae is a mass that encourages the parish to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Eucharist. Do you even understand how important that is ? Before the reform, people would not care except receiving the Eucharist or do anything such as praying the Rosary - but they would not take part in the Sacrifice itself - WHICH IS THE CENTER OF THE WHOLE MASS IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE. Not where the priest is facing or which language it is prayed in. Btw in most NO parishes priests are perfetctly conservative. But you rather choose to ignore that fact, because you might've encountered (which I highly doubt) a parish where liturgical abuse happened. Furthermore let me clarify something: Missa Tridentina is not more "holy", more "excellent" because it might puts more focus on "mental prayer" and things of sorts like that, nor does it glorify God more or less in any way or form than NO. When Pope Benedict reinstated it, he mentioned explicitely how TLM and NO are 2 masses of the same Rite, no additions, no notes, no nothing. That means they are both perfectly viable, because they both serve the purpose of honoring, living through and receiving the Sacrifice of the Eucharist. To commune with God, not to fulfill your personal taste.

You're all over "muh aesthetics" and "muh traditions" but is it your tradition ? How old are you ? In your 20s ? Mabye 30s ? You literally never witnessed the original Missa Tridentina back in the day before the reform. There is not anything you could be "missing". Maybe if you'd be 80 - then I could understand it. But this shit is ridiculous.

Furthermore do you go as far as become (borderline) heretics because of your personal agenda. It is irritating at best. And you should in all seriousness question your objections, because they are entirely based on your personal taste - or worse: (political) agenda - instead of your love for God and the Church.

Ask yourself: If V2 preached heresy, or worse: if at some point there were "anti-Popes", then the gates of hell prevailed against the Church. That means the jewish narrative that Christ was just a lunatic that happened to have some talking skills is right. It would mean that the gates of hell prevailed against the Church at one point in history. Do you really call Christ a liar, a lunatic and anything other than fully God and fully man that sacrificed Himself to redeem us ? Because that is what your retareded narratives are implying.


a0d632 No.588701

>>587908

Out of curiosity, how many books or papers have you read on this subject?


f44618 No.588702

>>588693

>You're all over "muh aesthetics" and "muh traditions" but is it your tradition ?

Your intentions are good, but rash judgement is as much a sin as schism or disobedience.

And yes, the Tridentine Mass is our very valuable tradition; you're contradicting post-VII Magisterium by saying that it isn't.


a0d632 No.588703

File: 5699bea246aab22⋯.jpg (81.44 KB, 404x650, 202:325, our_lady_of_wisdom.jpg)

For those who wishes to truly understand how damaging CVII was to the Church, buy and read the Iota Unum, which explains everything troughout its 800 pages, out of which I don't agree completely but are more than enough for anyone who has an honest wish to learn more about how modernity has infiltrated the Church and is slowly corrupting and destroying it.

This is not an easy subject and there are countless respected academic papers and books written on this. If you're intelectually honest, then read the book I recommended and take your own conclusions, but if you wish to remain an ignorant then follow the advices posted here about how 'idiot, stupid sedevacantists are', created by people who probably never even touched a single book on the subject.

I'm not gonna talk much nor debate about it here, I just providing you, who wants to learn more and is an honest person, with the best introductory material (The Iota Unum), you won't find satisfactory answers in an imageboard frequented by people with an average age of 25 years at most.


b54e2f No.588714

>>588693

>SSPX are borderline sedes

No they aren't.

>V2 was a council that was called on in order to react to radical changes happening in the societies in the West around that time.

The syllabus of errors condemns the idea that the Pope should modernize with the times.

>One of the most well received and most successful changes was the liturgical reform.

Only if your idea of success is a massive plunge in church attendance and lack of reverence.

> but they would not take part in the Sacrifice itself - WHICH IS THE CENTER OF THE WHOLE MASS IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE.

Unnecessary, laity aren't priests. The fact it is a sacrifice is mentioned more in the TLM than in the NO

>Not where the priest is facing or which language it is prayed in.

In the Novus Ordo the pries faces the people, in the TLM he faces Christ in the tabernacle.

>Btw in most NO parishes priests are perfetctly conservative.

Only if your idea of conservatism is conserving the spirit of Vatican II.

>Furthermore do you go as far as become (borderline) heretics because of your personal agenda.

Explain.

>And you should in all seriousness question your objections, because they are entirely based on your personal taste

The TLM is objectively more reverent.

>Ask yourself: If V2 preached heresy, or worse: if at some point there were "anti-Popes", then the gates of hell prevailed against the Church.

V2 did not define any new dogmas and is not infallible.

TL;DR your wrong.


f44618 No.588719

>>588714

>The syllabus of errors condemns the idea that the Pope should modernize with the times.

Well, congratulations for showing you have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about.


b54e2f No.588721

>>588719

How? Here's what The Syllabus of errors condemns:

80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.- -Allocution “Jamdudum cernimus,” March 18, 1861.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9syll.htm


a60ea5 No.588723

File: 193d344fc1f0701⋯.webm (368.53 KB, 640x360, 16:9, time to stop.webm)

>>587963

>the pope has excommunicated himself officially about a month ago by allowing communion to 'remarried' couples, a.k.a. people in grave sin.

He never did this.

>The number of laity has severely dropped since V2, and I have yet to see decent statistics on the ordinations and seminarians pre-V2.

The number of priests, nuns and other clergy has been dropping since before V2. The number of laity has more than doubled in the last 50 years.

>>588649

That's all it is, a rumour. This gossip is meant to divide us


b54e2f No.588728

>>588723

He did though.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/12/pope-francis-promulgates-buenos-aires.html

6) In other, more complex circumstances, and when it is not possible to obtain a declaration of nullity, the aforementioned option [living in continence] may not, in fact, be feasible. Nonetheless, it is equally possible to undertake a journey of discernment. If one arrives at the recognition that, in a particular case, there are limitations that diminish responsibility and culpability (cf. 301-302), particularly when a person judges that he would fall into a subsequent fault by damaging the children of the new union, Amoris Laetitia opens up the possibility of access to the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist (cf. footnotes 336 and 351). These in turn dispose the person to continue maturing and growing with the aid of grace.


f44618 No.588753

File: ae9235b4bb40e30⋯.jpg (135.45 KB, 900x1196, 225:299, st-dominic-praying.jpg)

>>588721

Because the "adapting to the modern world" part has a very narrow meaning in the Syllabus, which doesn't appear in the documents of Vatican II.

It's obviously incorrect, if not outright heretical, to say that the Church cannot adapt to the times; it's easy to see why both by logic and by history. All the things Church does are but means to the end, which is glory and goodness of God and salvation of souls; and means must always by their nature be subject to the end. Several of these were commanded by God (e.g. that the Eucharist is to be celebrated - "Do this in rememberance of Me") and as such we, trusting Him who gave them, can and must obediently continue doing these things, and can never discard them.

However, the particular way these things are done, in addition to many other actions and laws of the Church, are mere human, fallible inventions, and can be changed by relevant, human authority (e.g. an ecumenical council); because in the end they are just means, and less effective means should be replaced by more effective means. For example, if a particular way of evangelisation doesn't work, then we shouldn't continue evangelising this way; rather, we should use a more effective way because one or another method of evangelisation is just a fallible, created, human tradition whose value lies in how well it attains its end.

We see this kind of adaptation to circumstances of time countless times in Church history: Counter-Reformation comes to mind as perhaps one of the most prominent - the society and culture had changed, and the Church as it functioned before had been inefficient when faced with the new and previously unknown danger of Protestantism; and so, the Church adapted to the times - this is the essence of aggiornamento as expressed by the modern popes; efficient church, not modernised doctrine.

In addition, it's equally obvious that the Church can take what is good and true even from an evil source; and if modern civilisation treats some issue rightly, the Church can adopt this, not because of the particular civilisation which invented or developed this approach, but because the approach is good, useful and agrees with the doctrine. As the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day: and when we know it's right, it's illogical to refuse to accept what it says only because it's a broken clock.

As for the quote from Syllabus, the New Catholic Encyclopedia says:

>The publication raised a furor that had been long expected. The Italian and French governments allowed the press to publish and comment upon it, but denied the ecclesiastical authorities equal freedom in explaining the propositions; and so misconceptions about the condemned errors became widespread, especially since many of the errors had specific reference to the Italian situation. For example, condemned proposition 80 reads: "The Roman pontiff can and should reconcile and harmonize himself with progress, with liberalism, and with recent civilization." This condemnation was drawn from the allocution Jamdudum cernimus (March 18, 1861), which had reference to the Piedmontese government's idea of progress and civilization, i.e., closing of religious houses, enforcement of secular education, secularism, and anticlericalism. Other nations had different views on progress, liberalism, and civilization, and misinterpreted the meaning of the pope; Catholics became confused about some of these condemnations, although many were very clear, e.g., those with reference to the denial of Christ's divinity and to atheism.

It's a quote from another document and explicitly presented as such, rather than an independent statement, in the Syllabus and should be interpreted not on its own, but in light of that document, which concerns a very specific situation.


9bac8c No.588867

>>588702

I'm not saying it's not a tradition. I'm saying people having never witnessed the TLM in first place can't make a point of "muh tradition", because it literally isn't beyond what they might've seen on the internet - or some are lucky and are part of a TLM parish, but then the argument is obsolete anyway - which makes it nothing but virtue signalling.

It is a mere vehicle of expressing "radtrad" views where everything "old and traditional" is "objectively" better, because it is old and traditional and not, dare I say, ebin """"modernism"""".

I prefer TLM or the Divine Liturgy, too, but I love NO just as much. The outright rejection of NO due to delusion and "muh aesthetics" is straight up dishonesty - as people that do it like that have an agenda.


b54e2f No.589001

>>588753

Vatican II might not have said what was condemned in the Syllabus of errors but in practice the Pope's have tried to do that.


25df6e No.589054

>>589001

For example?


8fff45 No.589831

Dude those people are complete prideful spergs. Our Church is not perfect but it is still legit. WE need to fix it. Theyre whiney cowards who gave up.


01f858 No.597995

>>587895

>Sedevacantist

join the club. We just disagree with memevacatists on the exact time of vacancy




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