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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

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File: 73b7f0d3328ead8⋯.jpg (14.52 KB, 505x584, 505:584, 012.jpg)

a012c3 No.617825

How do Protestants account for the countless miracles attributed to the saints of the Catholic Church?

Take, for example, Padre Pio. This is a man who constantly healed the sick, including granting sight to a woman without pupils, was able to read the souls of those in confession, spoke to souls in purgatory, bilocated on numerous occasions, appeared after death once to cure a man of cancer, and bore the wounds of Christ for 50 years with no signs of rot or healing until they miraculously disappeared before his death. In addition, he reported constant physical beatings from demons ala St. Anthony, and to my knowledge twice dissipated the devil in disguise, taking the form of his superior and a penitent respectively, by speaking the names of Jesus and Mary. Thus we see that he worked the works of the Holy Spirit and was not swayed by spirits of the antichrist, so claims that he was working through false spirit really don't hold water in light of the power he, through Christ, held over them.

Now this man alone, a wonder-worker nearly equal to Paul, would be enough to prove that God is with the Catholic Church, and yet we also have the Miracle of the Sun, healings through Lourdes and veneration of the Holy Face, visions of God by saints like Hildegard of Bingen and Teresa of Avila, and the continuous miracles attributed to the intercession of saints in heaven.

In light of all this, I have to ask how Protestants account for the absence of the most wonderful of the Holy Spirit's gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12 in their tradition?

7afee9 No.617830

What makes you think all protestants believe these miracles to be false? How much do you really know about protestants?

a012c3 No.617833


tbh not much, which is why I made this thread in the first place. I do know that the couple of times I've brought this subject up in various threads it's usually dismissed with verses like Matthews 24:24 and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15, but I will admit that's the extent of my knowledge, so fair point.

6fbb34 No.617834

File: 60076ae118f4eba⋯.jpg (16.73 KB, 263x300, 263:300, st paisios.jpg)

Interesting thoughts. I'm wondering how Catholics account for Orthodox saints.

759ee9 No.617836

File: c9ffb8b1122b304⋯.jpg (66.51 KB, 450x735, 30:49, Godfrey_of_Bouillon,_holdi….jpg)


Maybe they are the two faces of the same holy coin.

a73ba7 No.617837


Most of my fellow Protestants that I know don't believe that Catholics aren't Christian, just that you don't have to be Catholic (in the apostolic sense) to be Christian. So in have no problem with a Catholic being filled with the Holy Spirit.

a012c3 No.617839


We don't doubt their holiness and we hope for their salvation with more than reasonable confidence, yet we would not pray to or venerate them (and I'm a little averse to Seraphim Rose's opinions on us to say the least). On the flip side, I've read saints like Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila being accused of prelest by some Orthodox.

Side question, how do you guys go about canonization? For us, at least since the 1500's, we have a whole congregation for investigation and require a holy life and at least two miracles after death that can be attributed to their intercession before the Pope can canonize them.

3069d5 No.617844

His stigmata were acid burns. It stands to reason that his other miracles were hoaxes too.

The gifts died with the apostles.


3069d5 No.617845

0be6f0 No.617847

File: 2af3eb5a8e7d387⋯.jpg (16.99 KB, 600x468, 50:39, 0cMsyRQ.jpg)


>Stigmata were acid burns

<Mfw people who know nothing about chemistry talk about le cabolic acid meme

a012c3 No.617848


My curiosity isn't really about whether or not you guys think we are christians, most people of every denomination are sane in that regard. Rather, do you not think that the overwhelming amount of miracles, especially compared to a protestant tradition, points to Catholicism as the true faith?


This has been covered before in other threads as >>617847 knows but acid burns don't work that way. If he used acid to keep the wounds open it would have eaten through his entire hand rather than maintaining a clean wound that stayed open for decades. And of course, as your article shows, the wounds failed to heal even when sealed for a month, so I thank you for finding that for me. Either way that doesn't account for the healings of San Giovanni Rotondo, Lello Pegna, Gemma di Giorgio, Anthony Fuina, and many others.

Also yeah Pentecostals are a meme.

6fbb34 No.617850


The process of canonization for us varies from region to region, but there are general outlines which are universal and similar to yours.



d2130e No.617853


>Rather, do you not think that the overwhelming amount of miracles, especially compared to a protestant tradition, points to Catholicism as the true faith?

Proof there's such a great disparity? You have already admitted >>617833 that you know little of Protestants.


Howdy D&C guy. How's it going today?

1b225c No.617854


i'm orthodox but this is a meme. if you visualize something hard enough with energy over a period of time it manifests. he really did have the stigmata. was he in prelest? yes. did he get demonic help? who knows. please research these things before memeing.

a012c3 No.617857


If you'd like to prove me wrong you're welcome to do so, as it stands I can't recall a protestant lauding modern miracles even once, and certainly not from a saint, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that there isn't such a disparity.


See, I genuinely don't understand accusations of prelest like this, especially given that he dispelled demons multiple times. I've heard similar accusations against St. Teresa despite the fact that she was a thorough expert in demonology, it just seems baseless to me in light of their power over dark spirits. Maybe I'm misunderstanding prelest but either way they both seem as spotless as fallen creatures can be.

ee8160 No.617860


And it's not just miracles, what about exorcism? What do people do when they doubt that something demonic is happening? Go to a catholic church, they know it's out of their local pastor's league.

a012c3 No.617861


Nah pastors can do exorcisms, hell I even remember a muslim exorcist doing an ama on /x/ once who was shocked to see a christian exorcism work. Priests are of course the best though (I say, knowing absolutely nothing about exorcisms beyond Jesus's).

4ffd2b No.617862


a012c3 No.617863


we gucci my sad friend, ty tho

1b225c No.617864


basically this: he visualized the suffering of christ so intensely that it happened to him. first off, this is not healthy. christ is risen. to dwell so intimately on the PHYSICAL BODILY SUFFERING is strange since only christ could receive that sort of total pain for the world, and to think that you come even remotely close to being worthy of such an honor is very prideful. again, this physical world is transitory and we should rejoice in any sufferings. but to focus only only on recreating our lords pain in death in your only body is not only sadistic, but incredibly prideful as well.

as for the miracles, sure. just because someone was in prelest doesn't mean they can do good for the church. see origen among many others. thanks for your civil reply.

1b225c No.617866


the only denoms that have power over demons really are baptist, ortho and catholic. there is a lot of documentation online

1b225c No.617868


if you are interested in reading more about the topic, please see:


try to keep an open mind while reading, i apologize if you take offense to the article but i found it helpful.

ee8160 No.617870


An exorcism is not just saying Our father over someone. It's a literal battle and it takes time. Also, any catholic exorcist will tell you demons can't stand the name of Our Lady, which protestants don't mention. Or st. Michael. I haven't heard of protestants engaging in long and hard exorcisms. When it's real stuff, you call a catholic priest.

1b225c No.617871


a catholic priest that has been trained as an exorcist. by default all orthodox priests are exorcists, but catholic priests go through separate exorcism training.

1b225c No.617872


yes, a exorcism would be difficult without holy objects and the sign of the cross, so i don't know how effective protestant exorcisms are.

ee8160 No.617874


I think Orthodox priests can exorcise too, I mean they're valid priests. I actually don't know if Orthos do it, never heard of anything about it.


Also, I read when the lead Vatican exorcist said he uses Latin because the demons absolutely hate it. And that's another dimension.

35b938 No.617876


Test every spirit. Any miracle which confirms a false religion is a lying wonder to be dismissed.

ee8160 No.617877


I agree. What puzzles me is how there aren't any miracles confirming your supposedly true religion.

>inb4 we don't need them

1b225c No.617878


Interesting article here:


Yes, anything connected to ancient and holy tradition is powerful.

a012c3 No.617880


That would be the accusations that I reference above yeah. What I would say is that 1.) accusing them of pride is rather nonsensical when you look deeper into their lives. Francis, as noted, took great shame in a simple breaking of his dietary vows, Teresa considered her attachment to simple conversation to be a great, though not mortal sin, to the point where she records Jesus appearing to her with a disapproving look, and Pio wept on his deathbed and asked his fellow monks to pray that God forgive all the trouble he caused them. Secondly, and this is important, all three reported being pierced by the arrows/spears of a Seraphim. For Teresa it pierced her heart with divine love and with Francis and Pio they were agonized by the passion, and though I can't speak for Francis, Pio and Teresa were very attuned to the spiritual world and were on guard against demonic illusions and other forms of prelest that the orthodox Church is well on guard for, in these extraordinary cases I think to a fault. Perhaps you may not have thought that the stigmatics were worthy of this honor, but all I can say is that Christ did.



Again, I will simply say that a Muslim exorcist reported similar abilities, even while recognizing Christian exorcisms. Demons hate God's name. Really wish I had taken screenshots of that thread, the guy was a wandering freelance exorcist in Southeast Asia and his story was fascinating.


but of course


Man this thread turned out way cooler than I expected.

ee8160 No.617885


>Unlike the Roman Catholic Church that elevated the Office of Exorcist, as a special exorcists unit, all Orthodox priests are trained and equipped to perform exorcism primarily as an obligatory part of Orthodox Baptism.

I didn't know about this, very cool. And it reminded me of something very sad, in reforms of sacraments after Vatican 2, exorcism prayers were removed from the Catholic baptism prayers. And that example where the father repents and that frees his child from evil spirits is also something that protestants wouldn't do.

35b938 No.617889


But there are, anon, they are recorded in the Old and New Testaments.


>"The name of the devil is 'I, I do, I can, I'm able to, I, I, I.' This is the devil."

But then

>"The devil wants me for himself at all costs."

According to Pio, pride is of the devil, and as we see, Pio was prideful.

1b225c No.617891


Prelest is spiritual pride, occurring when any imagination taints spiritual experience. There must be no feelings, no senses, no wanting to experience something, since these desires lead to confusing about the nature of God and prayer. So the real test of humility is their inner prayer life, which unfortunately we have no way of knowing. Regardless, this has been an informative discussion, and I am open to more personal research on the subject if you have any sources you would be willing to link to.


Yes, it is very sad. I urge you to stay strong in the faith brother. Don't lose hope.And do not forget that the armies of the anti christ will be lead by the bishops who twisted the truth. The bishop's council here are starting to pervert the liturgy here, and I fear that it will be difficult for me to go about becoming a conservative priest. May God bless you richly my friend.

a012c3 No.617893

File: ae6cf479bf16f97⋯.png (103.6 KB, 243x297, 9:11, 1462841928374.png)


>According to Pio, pride is of the devil, and as we see, Pio was prideful.

uh, do we see that?

ee8160 No.617896


So you're saying the Holy Ghost fell asleep after the times of the Apostles? Cool story.

35b938 No.617900


So you're saying the Holy Ghost owes us some miracles?

ee8160 No.617903


So you're saying that every miracle that has happened for the past 2000 years in the Apostolic Churches is from the devil?

a012c3 No.617906


>There must be no feelings, no senses, no wanting to experience something, since these desires lead to confusing about the nature of God and prayer.

This is at distinct odds with the Catholic tradition at it's core. The rosary prayer is all about meditation on the various mysteries and is best done when placing oneself in the scenes of scripture one is a meditating on, both in imagination and emotion. St Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits who was visited by the madonna and child while he was seeking God on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, wrote a whole book of Spiritual Exercises on everything from the fall of the angels to the resurrection based on this principle, and it is one of the masterpieces of the Christian contemplative tradition. Rather than confusing us, proper imaginative meditation and contemplation allow us to live the Gospel in a very literal sense, and it is why the Blessed Mother asks every Catholic to practice it daily through the Rosary.

ee8160 No.617908


The Orthobro is right, you misunderstood him. One can't desire to see anything, read st. John of the Cross. Meditating about the mysteries of the rosary =/= desiring to see a vision of something or feel something.

a012c3 No.617910


Interesting, do you mean see in a supernatural or a natural sense, because again the natural sense is essential to ignatian spirituality?

ee8160 No.617911


St. John tells us to outright reject visions and feelings

>12. "It is clear, then, that these sensual apprehensions and visions cannot be a means to union, since they bear no proportion to God; and this was one of the reasons why Christ desired that the Magdalene and Saint Thomas should not touch Him. And so the devil rejoices greatly when a soul desires to receive revelations, and when he sees it inclined to them, for he has then a great occasion and opportunity to insinuate errors and, in so far as he is able, to derogate from faith; for, as I have said, he renders the soul that desires them very gross, and at times even leads it into many temptations and unseemly ways."

>8. "It is always well, then, that the soul should reject these things, and close its eyes to them, whencesoever they come. For, unless it does so, it will prepare the way for those things that come from the devil, and will give him such influence that, not only will his visions come in place of God's, but his visions will begin to increase, and those of God to cease, in such

manner that the devil will have all the power and God will have none.


954e67 No.617916


Yes, this is a huge distinction between the schools of mysticism in the catholic and orthodox church. Speaking of the rosary:


And as >>617908 stated, I second that you read Dark Night of the Soul, or any other work by Saint John of the Cross.

a012c3 No.617917


If St John is referring to sensual visions then that's not what the Rosary nor the Spiritual Exercises are about. They are mental only, and any visions which do not arise from one's own effort surely should be treated with the utmost caution. Teresa here gives beyond good advice yet I know her well enough to know that true vision is a ecstatic experience beyond the normal bounds of imagination and emotion. That being said I will be going through the Exercises for the first time this summer, and while I already had prelest in mind I will finish Teresa's autobiography and go through the Mansions so my guard is doubled. Ty for that you.

a012c3 No.617922

I should mention that I found my copy of the Exercises in mint condition outside of my local Church after my first confession in years, precisely as I was wondering how to purify my soul. This is a gift I was given years ago and it's time I stop ignoring it. I only pray that the saints may guide me so that I utilize it properly.

ee8160 No.617926


Oh, by all means, do the exercises, under guidance preferrably of course. St. John's Ascent of Mount Carmel is basically the ABC of spirituality and st. John is the teacher of the Church in that regard, along with st. Theresa. Maybe go through the most important pieces of the Ascent for now.

57b7e5 No.617928

File: 34e271327d4cfe7⋯.jpg (53.88 KB, 1280x1280, 1:1, 34e271327d4cfe72e6edd86d5b….jpg)

The striking lack of argument disproving OP really makes me think…

a012c3 No.617930


I hope to finish both of their works by the summer, as a preparatory goal. I'm already making small steps in praying the rosary better, using it as a means to practice concentrating the imagination. Sadly my results are spotty, but we'll see where it goes.

Guidance is kind of the area where I wish I could have someone; I see no way that my mother would let me head from Long Island to upstate NY for a month long retreat to get the prescribed guidance so minus weekly updates with my confessor I'm on my own for it, meaning I'll need to integrate the exercises into my daily life over a longer period. It would have been nice to do the first week, which focuses on sin, during Lent but I don't have the time, aptitude, or virtue. Either way though I'm excited, and I would appreciate if you prayed for me.

35b938 No.617932


Every miracle in any false religion is of the devil.

a012c3 No.617933

1e20d3 No.617947


>There must be no feelings, no senses, no wanting to experience something

Sounds like orthodoxy was influenced too much by eastern religions like buddhism

003993 No.617970

Lord lord did we not prophecy in your name and work miracles…ya but I never knew u…etc

a012c3 No.617972


Nah they actually knew each other pretty well.

>One day, our Lord Jesus revealed to Padre Pio in an apparition: "Friday morning I was still in bed when Jesus appeared to me. He was very sad and upset. He showed me a multitude of priests regular and secular, among them various ecclesiastical dignitaries. Some were celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Others were putting on the sacred vestments; still others were taking them off.

>The sight of Jesus in distress gave me much pain, so I asked Him why He was suffering so much. He did not reply, but kept looking towards those priests. When He became tired of looking, He glanced away. He raised his eyes towards me and two tears ran down his cheeks. He walked away from the crowd of priests with an expression of disgust and scorn, crying: 'Butchers!' Turning to me He said:

>'My son, do not believe that my agony lasted only three hours. No, I shall be in agony until the end of the world because of those for whom I have done the most. During my agony, my son, we must not sleep. My soul seeks a few drops of human pity. But alas, they leave me alone under the weight of indifference. The ingratitude and the sleep of my ministers make my agony more difficult to bear. Alas, how they return my love. What pains me even more is that they add scorn and unbelief to their indifference. How many times I was ready to destroy them, but I was held back by the angels and the souls that love me. Write to your confessor and tell him what you have seen and what you have heard this morning. Tell him to show your letter to the Provincial.'"

a012c3 No.617980

"With what ingratitude is my love for men repaid! I should be less offended by them if I had loved them less. My Father does not want to bear with them any longer. I myself want to stop loving them, but, alas! My heart is made to love! Weak and cowardly men make no effort to overcome temptation and indeed they take delight in their wickedness. The souls for whom I have a special predilection fail me when put to the test, the weak give way to discouragement and despair, while the strong are relaxing by degrees. They leave me alone by night, alone by day in the churches. They no longer care about the Sacrament of the altar. Hardly anyone ever speaks of this Sacrament of love, and even those who do, speak, alas, with great indifference and coldness. My heart is forgotten; Nobody thinks anymore of my love and I am continually grieved. For many people, my house has become an amusement center . . . I behold, my son . . . many people who act hypocritically and betray me by sacrilegious communions, trampling under foot the light and strength which I give them continually . . ."

c6bd5f No.617982



>Read a latest Catholic-approved miracle

>It tells you to put your Priests under scrutiny, every time

B-but a neo-Jesuit on this image board told me that I should always trust my priests and bishops! How could I have been wrong???

a012c3 No.617992


What a cold heart you have, to spit on your Lord's sorrow. I pray he will have mercy on you.

3bb4af No.617995


>if you visualize something hard enough with energy over a period of time it manifests.

A psychiatrist once diagnosed St Pio's wounds as psychosomatic manifestations from staring at images of the Cross too much. St Pio responded "Stare at a bull and see if you grow horns."

c6bd5f No.618032


What a incredible overincredulous-ness you have, to dance on the top of the elephant for not accepting the spaghetti of my soul. Surely, it is more important to send over the angels to you!

954e67 No.618049


The mind is a terrible thing to waste. Thought forms have great power.

954e67 No.618051


Christianity itself is an eastern religion my friend.

764b42 No.618066


TIL Jesus was Han

3069d5 No.618070


>If you'd like to prove me wrong you're welcome to do so, as it stands I can't recall a protestant lauding modern miracles even once, and certainly not from a saint, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that there isn't such a disparity.

Pentecostals do it all the time. I'm sure you regard them as gormless yokels. I see no reason to place your own claims of weeping paintings and Marian nachos in any higher regard.

63ee60 No.618078

>How do Protestants account for the countless miracles attributed to the saints of the Catholic Church?

I don't, and God has not asked me to do so. All I'm responsible for is keeping to the teachings of Scripture, and trying to live a holy life by faith. Let God sort out the wheat from the chaff in His own time.

6737cc No.618142

File: c5da59517cd9215⋯.png (1.4 MB, 1030x1092, 515:546, luther-smiles-kek.png)


>How do Protestants account for the countless miracles attributed to the saints of the Catholic Church?

Are you asking because you are genuinely interested in the answer, or because you're creating another thread at which you get to, at the end, squark "protestants btfo"?

>a wonder-worker nearly equal to Paul

You're losing me.

Healings have one or more of five possible explanations:

1. God heals someone through someone because the healing and/or healed would glorify God

2. God heals someone to demonstrate the power of God to the healed and the witnesses

3. God heals through someone to demonstrate the power of God is with that someone (ie; Christ, Apostles, etc)

4. God didn't heal someone, the enemy did

5. Nothing actually happened, nothing to see here.

Pio may simply be for reason 1. He may be for reasons 1 and 2, and he may even be for reason 3. The holiness of the healer has no bearing over the healing itself. Remember that plenty of people were running around healing in Jesus' own day healing people even in His Name, to whom He says "I never knew you; Depart from me." I know nothing of Pio's life and miracles. Much is said about him, much of it I am automatically wary of. My limited understanding is that even the officialdom of Catholicism are wary of Pio's cult. I am wary because any time I hear Pio being praised as a this or for that, that's one less time God is praised. A true saint would be horrified by that notion. IMHO, of course.

>In light of all this, I have to ask how Protestants account for the absence of the most wonderful of the Holy Spirit's gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12 in their tradition?



I would also argue that the ENTIRE Church has largely walked back from 1Cor12. Christ said greater things would we do, but we really haven't been doing them for a very, very long time.

1e20d3 No.618154

272576 No.618294

How do Catholics account for the fact that Catholicism was polytheism disguised as monotheism?

aa7bc0 No.618317

File: 4522d5987ceb3e9⋯.webm (1.84 MB, 320x240, 4:3, Banic.webm)


>Thought forms have great power.



876784 No.618350

Either they're lying or it's of satan

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

954e67 No.618426


I'm not sure what you mean. Though mental willing these men manifested stigmata on their bodies (whether it was healthy or demonic is another story). I'm not sure how you can be a christian and think that our thoughts are not important: "As someone thinks within himself, so he is." -Proverbs 23:7

954e67 No.618427


Not sure I understand this reference or meme.


I am interested in hearing your rebuttal.

32f023 No.618435


Thoughtforns are Taoist sorcery.

dd047c No.618484


>would be enough to prove that God is with the Catholic Church

That's if those things actually happened, and as far as I can tell, there's very little evidence for it, even his stigmata was dodgy as he didn't show his hands for the later part of his life and they weren't on his corpse.

954e67 No.618489


>"As someone thinks within himself, so he is." -Proverbs 23:7

I'm not talking about thought forms or tulpas or anything jewish like that. Just the power of one's thoughts: "Whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things.

-Philippians 4:8"

46d694 No.618525


I'll refer you to this and see if you think this is "dodgy"


8368e8 No.618527


My apologies, I misunderstood. All the new-ageist troll posts have me on edge.

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