[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / chori / choroy / coz / dempart / jenny / lisperer / russian / vichan ]

/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Winner of the 81rd Attention-Hungry Games
/y2k/ - 2000s Nostalgia

Entries for the 2019 Summer Infinity Cup are now open!
May 2019 - 8chan Transparency Report
Email
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: d8c070a658871c1⋯.jpg (74.85 KB, 1024x576, 16:9, 1405921429135.jpg)

43af58  No.794593

Do Catholics still believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church? If they do, then wouldn't Catholics and other Christians have irreconcilable differences, just like the JW and Mormons with the rest of the Christian community?

13d2a3  No.794596

File: d939f36a53ad725⋯.jpg (21.08 KB, 200x295, 40:59, rnspopepaulvi_295.jpg)

Yes, there is no guaranteed salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

>If they do, then wouldn't Catholics and other Christians have irreconcilable differences

You must be new here. Lurk here long enough and you'll see the irreconcilable differences in the form of inter-denom pooflinging contests.

EVANGELII NUNTIANDI

>Such a situation certainly raises complex and delicate questions that must be studied in the light of Christian Tradition and the Church's magisterium, in order to offer to the missionaries of today and of tomorrow new horizons in their contacts with non-Christian religions. We wish to point out, above all today, that neither respect and esteem for these religions nor the complexity of the questions raised is an invitation to the Church to withhold from these non-Christians the proclamation of Jesus Christ. On the contrary the Church holds that these multitudes have the right to know the riches of the mystery of Christ[76] - riches in which we believe that the whole of humanity can find, in unsuspected fullness, everything that it is gropingly searching for concerning God, man and his destiny, life and death, and truth. Even in the face of natural religious expressions most worthy of esteem, the Church finds support in the fact that the religion of Jesus, which she proclaims through evangelization, objectively places man in relation with the plan of God, with His living presence and with His action; she thus causes an encounter with the mystery of divine paternity that bends over towards humanity. In other words, our religion effectively establishes with God an authentic and living relationship which the other religions do not succeed in doing, even though they have, as it were, their arms stretched out towards heaven.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19751208_evangelii-nuntiandi.html


3412a8  No.794597

Not even their catechism teaches this. The people telling you this are autistic sedes.. who themselves are outside the very church they supposedly follow. More Catholic than the Pope, etc..


862952  No.794601

>>794597

>implying this is not a traditional catholic position


ff8635  No.794602

>>794593

>Do Catholics still believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Yeah, it's one of their many believes contradicting Jesus Christ's teaching


862952  No.794611

>Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

>Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed…

<We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

>Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that

<none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41),

>unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier.

<No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

And you wonder why I believe there is no salvation outside the church. I can't imagine how it could even be put under dispute. Is it even possible the church could get any more clear in their intentions than that? What mental gymnastics is even capable of getting around this? One wonders why one would even try past this point to reject such clear teaching, if he calls himself a Christian.

The whole concept of salvation outside the church necessarily trivializes our holy church, trivializes the sacraments, trivializes Christ and trivializes his death on the cross. It is delusion done out of charity. Even if you say it is hypocritical that we do not follow when church leaders imply there could be salvation outside the church, you should be reminded these same church leaders TELL us to reject false teachings, even if they are promulgated non-infallibly by our leaders. Unless those were empty words, my rejection of salvation outside the church is fully consistent with even their teachings.


862952  No.794618

during Noah's time, there were many women pregnant with children and some with newborn babes in their arms all going about their business, didn't they have "invincible ignorance"? And yet they were washed away in the flood like the sinners just the same.

What do you think happened to the souls of these innocents? Back then you didn't need baptism before death in order to be saved for this was before Christ, and Noah was also before circumcision, so that wouldn't help either. I suppose it could be possible that the innocents were saved, however it seems to me far more plausible that they were not, and were sent to limbo like unbaptized children today likely go - the part of hell where there is no hellfire. These children died still possessing the stain of original sin, it simply follows that they will go to hell, though it is hell without the pains of hellfire as they did not actually commit personal sins deserving of such a thing. It is limbo.

I don't mean to be some sort of legalist, but this in my mind just works too perfectly. It is all consistent. If it ain't broke, why fix it?


2c3e7b  No.794641

>>794618

God can do whatever He will, He can save those children.


862952  No.794655

>>794641

I didn't deny that

>>794618

>>794611

actually, honestly, I've changed my mind. Damn. After all this time, here it is.

Vatican II, <Lumen gentium> #16: (1964 AD) For they who without their

own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet

seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace,

to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate

of conscience, can attain eternal salvation."

No way around that.

That and while you'll find early Catholic saints who are for baptism of desire and the like, you never find early saints that explicitly deny that there is a baptism of desire, rather the closest thing you will find is them just reiterating that there is no salvation outside the church which does not deny baptism of desire.


26c10f  No.794692

>>794602

>Yeah, it's one of their many believes contradicting Jesus Christ's teaching

Jesus: He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

Hmm…


8af80b  No.794695

>>794596

>No guaranteed salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So why be Catholic? There's no guaranteed salvation within the Church either; last time I checked, bad Catholics go to hell too.

Really the best argument I can construe is that speaking idle words against Catholics, their Church, or the Pope will send a prot to hell if he does not repent, because everyone will be made to give an account of every idle word he speaks on the day of judgement.


e6621e  No.794703

File: 5b25719bbfb1e74⋯.jpg (47.29 KB, 450x540, 5:6, St_James_icon-450x540.jpg)

>>794695

Except there is guaranteed salvation within God's church. If you keep the sacraments and bear good fruit for God in His name you receive grace.

Hence why we say there is no salvation outside of Jesus' Church. Did you even read the Apostolic exhortation I posted by Saint Pope Paul VI?


35a112  No.794779

>>794692

To be with Jesus means to accept Him as your savior, which is what prots and orthos do. We all go to heaven at the end of the day


26c10f  No.794831

>>794779

To accept Jesus as your savior, you have to accept His Church, which prots and orthos do not. They will not go to Heaven at the end of the day.


30cc83  No.794832

>>794831

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” -John 14:6 (kjv)

“Wait unless he’s an ortho or prot, my bad bro forgot to say that.” -John 14: 6.5


26c10f  No.794834

>>794832

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt vii, 21

"jklol" Matt vii, 21.5


30cc83  No.794835

>>794834

In this case, doing His will means that you act like a proper Christian and not going around acting like a sinner. Despite what you may think, orthos and prots aren’t the spawn of Satan and are good people. Also, funny we get into this conversation; God spoke to me in the past about stuff like this:

I was wondering about the correct way to worship Him and wondering whether Catholicism or Protestantism is the correct way to handle it. So I prayed for God to reveal the truth to me. Later that evening, my father suddenly remembered the story of the woman at the well, and was talking about the part where she was saying to Jesus how the Jews told the Samaritans to worship on one mountain and how they (the Samaritans) disagreed with that. Then Jesus essentially said that it didn’t matter which mountain they worshipped on, so long as they did it. My father then interpreted this to mean that it doesn’t completely matter which sect one’s in, so long as they’re worshiping God in general. He had never interpreted that story like that before. Just a way God was talking to me.


d902e2  No.794886

>>794835

I don't think that's quite the point. The passage goes like this (quoting the ESV, not for any particular reason).

>“Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The point wasn't that it didn't matter what mountain they worshiped on. In simple terms, the Samaritans and the Jews were ethnic groups or religious sects that we could say each followed different forms of Judaism. The Jews believed that the special temple sacrifices had to be done at the temple in Jerusalem. The Samaritans believed these sacrifices should be done on Mount Gerezim. Jesus gives his endorsement to the Jewish position in this debate ("we" Jews vs. "you" Samaritans, and "salvation is from the Jews"). What he says about "neither on this temple nor in Jerusalem" etc. is not that location doesn't matter. For the old covenant rites, it did matter. However the old covenant was going to be replaced by a new covenant (Christianity) where worship and ritual wouldn't be confined to any particular geographic location. It's not saying that how we worship, how we act, what we believe doesn't matter.


3cde0a  No.794899

>>794593

Catholics are evil as winnie the pooh


d902e2  No.794900

File: 320931599e8e06b⋯.jpg (48.26 KB, 301x475, 301:475, 1006067.jpg)

>>794899

That's Winnie Ille Pu to you.


862952  No.794958

>>794703

assurance of salvation does not exist, and it is good that it does not exist. If we had a guarantee, we would become lazy. We are saved by our faith, through the grace gifted power of the sacraments. Sacraments only work for those who have faith.

You cannot be hollow and expect to be saved, which is what a guarantee makes you.


f2ad4e  No.795414

>>794597

>Traditional catholics are the real heretics.

sure prot.


30cc83  No.795417

>>794886

>worship in spirit and truth

That’s what Protestants do, so we’d still be eligible to go to heaven. Also, as for that scripture, I could be wrong on that, but that in itself doesn’t mean that non Catholics go to hell


b8702e  No.795790

>>794597

The current Pope isn’t even Catholic at all, I think that’s blindingly obvious to everyone.

t. Orthodox


c42c1f  No.801253

>>794596

>Yes, there is no guaranteed salvation outside of the Catholic Church

>Salvation within the Church is guaranteed

Kek. Nice one Anon


f48908  No.801257

Non-Christian here who's interested in the idea of converting to Catholic faith:

Why does the Church in my region insist on new converts have to attend 1 year of teaching before they are considered Catholic? And why does it say that adult baptism happens on Easter Sunday, with some exceptions? Is this how the Catholic Church deals with converts? What happens if I (God forbid) die before I get baptized. I find this process strange and wonder were it comes from.


c3f35c  No.801262

>>801257

When you become Catholic, you are joining the Catholic Church. That means you have to study the Church, its history and its teachings. Anyone can become Christian by proclaiming the Christ is Lord and being baptized, but if you join a Church, then you're becoming part of a larger organization. It's like getting a new job. You have to spend time in training before you can even be considered for management. You can concoct all manner of hypothetical situations (such as death before baptism), but don't worry about it.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


d34194  No.801317

>>801257

If you are in the process of becoming Catholic and you die before your actual baptism, then it is considered Baptism by intention.


f48908  No.801374

>>801317

>If you are in the process of becoming Catholic and you die before your actual baptism, then it is considered Baptism by intention.

Makes sense. This is something I believed in before I knew the catholic position. I imagine God truly knows what intentions you have in your heart and this if an accident occurs in the process, God will consider you baptized because if it wasn’t for the accident, you would have been baptized.


f3f9b8  No.801395

>>801257

All parishes differ slightly in how they operate. As a baptized Christian, I'm in the process of becoming Catholic, and since I…

>was raised Christian

>was baptized in a trinitarian church

>research the Church's teachings in my own time

…the RCIA coordinator feels I have been thoroughly "catechized", and can become Catholic whenever I believe I'm ready.


d34194  No.801419

>>801374

Yes, I even think the church recognizes a girl as a saint even though she never had the chance to officially convert. I forgot her name unfortunately but she wanted to become catholic but her father refused and abused her till she agreed to stop seeking conversion. She still prayed every night that she may become catholic. One day she once again told her father that she wanted to become catholic, and he was so frustrated with her that he murdered her.

I believe the same can apply if you have convinced yourself that you want to be Catholic then an accident occurs to where you can't officially convert. It all depends on you and God, though.


ae66b6  No.801438

>>801419

Saint Dymphna


733857  No.801464

>>794593

How many times did the Apostles in the Bible warn against heresy? Therefore, even though a person might call himself Christian, if he's a heretic, his salvation is in serious danger. Christianity was never meant to be used as an umbrella group with thousands of versions of interpretations of the Bible and theology and doctrine, that's common sense. Christ tasked His Apostles to spread the word and their successors through their authority have done do exactly that.

It is quite clear from the Bible that Apostles had disciples and only those disciples had the permission and authority to preach (the Bible wasn't assembled for the first few hundred years of Christianity anyway). It is quite ridiculous to claim that any man who picks up a Bible has the authority to spread his own interpretation of it and that all interpretations are equally valid.


0d91f6  No.801471

Yes, it's a dogma.


265a3e  No.812927

S


da1b4c  No.813735

>>794596

Do you believe all Catholics go to Heaven?


e7e3b7  No.813753

>>794596

>Yes, there is no guaranteed salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Wrong, there is no salvation whatsoever outside of the Catholic Church. All schismatics, heretics, pagans etc go to hell, infallibly.


e7e3b7  No.813754

>>813735

No a minority of Catholics go to heaven, and no non Catholics go to heaven.


2b04e2  No.813773

>>794593

All salvific grace is derived from the Catholic Church according to Dominus Iesus. That means apostolic orders receiving valid sacraments, though out of communion with the supreme pontiff, have access to the salvific nature of sacramental grace, but Protestants do not. The only sacramental graces that Protestants may access is the grace of Baptism, which is insufficient generally speaking. Does that mean that Orthodox Christians and some Anglicans have equal access as Catholics? No, but I would bet that every monk on Mt. Athos is going to heaven.


e7e3b7  No.813820

>>813773

All Heretics go to Hell infallibly as per the Council of Florence. Not one goes to heaven.


9d5aea  No.813829

>>813735

Only the devout and good ones. The ones that obey God and his commands. The Catholics in Name Only (CINOs) are no better than prots. If anything they are worse than prots. CINOs bring disgrace and confusion upon others. At least prots are honest about their hatred for the Church Jesus Himself setup.


3c2019  No.813836

>>813829

In all honesty, you sound like a Muslim


607203  No.813851

>>813836

He's not wrong, though. Much will be expected of those to whom much has been given… to be in the bosom of the Church, receive Jesus in the Eucharist, and then carelessly wander off into error is a very bad spot to be in. Not to mention the scandal generated by bad Catholics.


40d719  No.813896

>Doctor: I'm afraid I have some bad news. You have a serious illness. Without treatment, there is a high chance it can be fatal. But with this treatment I can give you, you should be…

>Patient: Wait, wait, wait. Did you say that there was a "high chance" of fatality without treatment? Does that mean that people with this serious illness have gotten better without seeing a doctor?

>Doctor: Well, of course there have been cases like that. But this treatment is highly effective

>Patient: Will it 100% guarantee my survival?

>Doctor: Well… I mean, nothing is 100% guaranteed…

>Patient: So if people with this sickness have gotten better, and this treatment doesn't even guarantee my survival, then why did I even come to the doctors? Why encourage anyone to go to the doctors when people can get better by themselves? Doesn't the fact that people can recover from illness without treatment mean that the whole field of medicine is pretty much pointless? Why spend so much resources on advancing medicine? Keep your treatment. I'm going home.

Use your Biblically honed mind to figure out the hidden meaning buried deep in this ingenious parable.


3c1e15  No.813898

>>813820

Dominus Iesus is magisterial.


fc1da1  No.813903

>>813836

If by "muslim" you mean the literal translation which means "one that submits to God" than yes I am a muslim and submit myself to the one Lord, Savior, and King Jesus Christ.

But if you mean "muslim" as in "a practitioner of Islam" than you are very much mistaken.

>>813896

I have a very slim chance of beating ebloa without a doctor, doesn't mean I should try to go at it alone.


f487a7  No.813938

>>813904

This is bait.


e0e7c7  No.814162

>>801257

>Why does the Church in my region insist on new converts have to attend 1 year of teaching before they are considered Catholic? And why does it say that adult baptism happens on Easter Sunday, with some exceptions? Is this how the Catholic Church deals with converts?

As a convert I've gone from entering church for the first time to baptism in 50 days: Easter to Pentecost.


46c3b8  No.814194

>>814162

>tell priest you want to be Catholic

>baptism is necessary for salvation according to the Catholic Church

>”sure anon you just need to take some classes and we’ll baptize you in eight months”

>but padre I want to be saved now

>”no anon we can only baptize on a certain day of the year as the Bible clearly teaches”

>die in car accident four months later

>lol sux to be you enjoy hell


46c3b8  No.814198

>>813896

So Jesus Christ isn’t actually necessary for salvation, he just makes it more likely you will be saved? Is that what your parable means?


e0e7c7  No.814207

>>814194

It might have to do something with worldly schedules being more important than saving your soul.

I mean it's not their soul not getting saved, right?

Should tell you something.


e0e7c7  No.814209

>>813829

>Only the devout and good ones. The ones that obey God and his commands. The Catholics in Name Only (CINOs) are no better than prots. If anything they are worse than prots. CINOs bring disgrace and confusion upon others. At least prots are honest about their hatred for the Church Jesus Himself setup.

Catholics in Name Only (CINO) is a heresy, which is neither supported by Scripture nor by Church tradition.

Your made up category of Catholics doesn't exist. The Catholics you put there are real Christians as any other Catholic and therefore get saved, even if you do not like it.


019c27  No.814210

>>814207

>I should be uneducated about the Christianity before entering communion with it

And you people wonder Evangelicals have a rep. for being uneducated.


e0e7c7  No.814212

>>814210

>I should be uneducated about the Christianity before entering communion with it

You realize that the same church baptizes infants, who can neither speak nor read?

How educated are these?


9f282b  No.814215

>>814212

They dont go through all the sacraments, so they aren't baptized in the holy spirit, which happens at confirmation after they've been taught. If they're adults, they receive all of them the same night.

To you prots because of your crap interpretation think baptism is all you need to go through.


9f282b  No.814221

>>814212

Also, you're supposed to being your children up in the fairh, so unless you fail as a parent your child should be able to have your child baptized.


e0e7c7  No.814224

>>814215

When a child is baptized it's saved. This is the sole reason, why infant baptism happens and has nothing to do with what happens later, when someone joins the church as an adult.

I see you try the hardest to LARP as a Catholic in various threads, but you have the theology of 12yo.


9f282b  No.814226

>>814224

An infant is saved at baptism, but that's not how full communion works. I'm not a larper, I just dont take this board very seriously. You must complete all of the sacraments to be in full communion with the church as well as maintain proper practice.


e58111  No.814230

>>795417

How can Catholics, Orthos, and Prots all worship in truth if they all have mutually exclusive truth claims?

Only one of them can have, and worship with, the whole truth.


fb8ae9  No.814238

>>814230

Exactly, and Catholics have the full infallible truth by the Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded


747fef  No.814239

>>814230

>How can Catholics, Orthos, and Prots all worship in truth if they all have mutually exclusive truth claims?

Welcome to /christian/!


260e6e  No.814280

>>794593

You can actually get excommunicated if you go off the deep end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / chori / choroy / coz / dempart / jenny / lisperer / russian / vichan ]