/co/ - Comics & Cartoons

>>535044

As OP heres what i got

Yes i think its good. Even the walls of text at the end of every chapter were interesting looks into the world and helped flesh out some of the finer details

The Squid? sorta? but coming from the "smartest man in the world" it seems kinda lazy tbh. "whoopsie as a giant squid vagina i just sorta warped in here and killed everyone. Sorry about that"

The ending of the film made a bit more sense to me. News hits around the world that Dr Manhatten has left earth after yelling at the television. He comes back a few days later and blows a fuckton of people up. One could argue the point that "why didnt he just kill everybody"

>your punishment must be more severe

but in the wake of a disaster like this i dont know if people will be asking this question. They would probebly say "thank god he didnt blow up more cities"

Yes…Yes there is

It's good, but not for the reasons a lot of casuals claim it is.

>>535047

Care to elaborate?

>>535048

I hear people calling it great because it's got like moral greyness and how cool Rorschach is and shit.

You see a lot of people recommending it as like entry level material, but as a deconstruction you can't actually appreciate any of what it tries to do unless you've already got a pretty good understanding of the medium.

That's why it's good. Not for the superfluous stuff.

>>535050

An example of this being the panel work and complete satire of its era

It came across as pretentious, but I enjoyed reading it. 8/10.

Yes

Yes

Eh, don't think so

Yes

I liked the pirate comic better.

>>535044

Yes

Yes

No

No

Great comic that unfortunately spawned an era of cape-writers who thought they can be edgy and violent too, without realizing that it wasnt the violence which made Watchmen brilliant but a good story and great characters. We can still see this retardation in effect in most cross-overs where they kill off B- and C-listers just to make things more "shocking".

A good stepping stone for philosophy. Each character has his own morals that drives their personality.

>Doctor Manhattan

Determinist

>Rorschach

Objectivist

>Ozymandias

Consequentialist

>Comedian

Nihilist

>>535099

I prefer comic book, but I am not a fan of squid either. I would take film's ending over squid.

Squid thing just didn't make much sense, even with Voidt using his money to popularize old alien and monster invasion films. How would we know that squid really did come from some alien world? How do you defend against a threat that can just teleport wherever the fuck it wants? Why would aliens just teleport a monster, that just squirmed around and died by itself without human intervention? What stops people from assuming that is is just a one-off strange anomaly? How would Americans know that it wasn't Russians and just set out the nukes once half of the NY died? Ozzy's plan just wouldn't stand the test of time, and I am talking few years at most.

Replacing squid with flying saucers and genetically engineered aliens (although saucers alone should be enough) would work better, and it could even kick start a new age of technology and engineering. You would have an enemy that mirrors conception of extraterrestrials that an average person has, thus eliminating need for propaganda. It would also be an enemy you can actually fight when pooling world's resources together and improve conventional warfare. It would be much cheaper approach than genetically engineering and then sustaining a squid.

>>535163

>Ozzy's plan just wouldn't stand the test of time, and I am talking few years at most.

But that's literally the point.

>I met a traveller from an antique land

>Who said: — Two vast and trunkless legs of stone

>Stand in the desert… Near them, on the sand,

>Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

>And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

>Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

>Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

>The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed

>And on the pedestal these words appear

>‚My name is Ozymandias, king of kings

>Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!‘

>Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

>Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare

>The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Moore even put the poem in the book, that's a dead giveaway that Veidt's plan would fall apart a few years down the line.

>>535168

It could be done better, though. Just make a reasonable plan that will obviously fail due to nature of humanity, an oversight (as it happens over and over in engineering and military) or someone smarter than Veidt (who isn't very smart, to be honest) putting pieces together. Squid falls apart by itself due to how idiotic it is.

Veidt's plan is plain stupid and jarring compared to the rest of the book. It seems like someone else wrote ending to the whole story or Moore found out that DC will fuck him over and decided to derail whole thing on purpose. While story as a whole is still good, its ending is disappointing.

Watchmen is probably the most frustrating comic book that I have read.

>>535172

I think it's about Ozymandias being delusional. The Ozymandias from the poem also labored under the impression that his works would stand the test of time forever, and they didn't. I guess that's why Moore didn't make it obvious that the plan would fail, he just strongly implied it.

>

Veidt's plan is plain stupid and jarring compared to the rest of the book.

Again, that was the point. You as the reader obviously think it's stupid, but the point was that his plan is something so insane and outrageous that people just would have to believe it.

I don't like the ending either. I'm disappointed that the mask killer wasn't real since I think this is the route Moore should have gone, but I think you're being unfair.

>>535044

>is watchmen a good comic/novel

Yes, but most people don't know why.

>does the ending make sense

Yes, the squid was necessary because the new threat that both sides were supposed to focus on couldn't come from earth if peace was going to last.

>was the ending of the film better than the book

No, this was a result of hack snyder trying to make it more "serious" when the comic managed this without a shitty filter, fight scenes, and a lack of color.

>is there too much blue penis

it's the right amount

>>535050

this

Watchmen was a poorly written shitty comic that only gets praised in comparison to capeshit.

>>535044

I like Watchmen, I only just read it once but here is my thoughts.

At the risk of sounding pretentious, Watchmen is not about cape heroes. It is about them but like a lot of Alan Moore writings, it is more about humanity. Moore brilliance lied in the fact that he was able to humanize characters that are simply two-dimensional representation of an existing idea. I dont read Watchmen like I was reading Batman or Sandman or Teen Titans. I read it like I was reading a literature about humanity, the tone of Watchman is not to me a dark and gritty tale, it is realism. Watchman tried to imitate real life problems and worries(which we still fear today), while most comics and fantasy stayed away from it or (using sjw representation of reality)

>>535050

>I hear people calling it great because it's got like moral greyness and how cool Rorschach is and shit.

They are plebs. Rorschach in my opinion was portrayed as a pitiful creature unable to see past his insanity.

As for entry-level, wtf is this shit? Whose good idea put Animal Farm as the introduction and representation to Aesop Fables?

>The Ending

As for the squid, some anons already stated what is the reason.

My opinion is that Watchmen is still a cape comic, that is why an alien monster is not a terrible addition.

The best parts of the ending is that it is very real to how human beings have done so all throughout history.

>>535174

>>535197

What these guys said. Watchmen is essentially Moore giving the finger to superheroes as a concept by writing an entire series showing them as people with issues, implying one would have to be mentally disturbed to actually do that stuff. The squid is the cherry on top of the "fuck you" cake. Because next to the insecurity, mommy issues, apathy, nihilism and plain insanity you get Veidt, the seemingly normal one, the guy who made it. Selfmade billionaire, widely considered the smartest man in the world, huge philantropist. And what does he do? Start negotiating with the Russians to make them dependent on his products and decrease likelihood of them destroying a country in which said products are made? Use his good press to go into politics and become a diplomat or ambassador? Nah, let's spend a small fortune genetically engineering a telepathic space squid that kills millions, that'll end the Cold War!

The squid is supposed to really hammer the point home: superheroes are insane. Even Veidt turns out to be some utilitarian with a messiah complex, living in some fantasy world where the Russians can't be considered real people with whom he could maybe negotiate like, whaddaya know, the US government had been doing the whole time. The squid is supposed to not make sense, and by pinning the blame on a known factor, Dr. Manhattan, instead, the movie undermines that message and makes it more into a traditional cape movie, albeit one where the bad guy wins.

It's like was said earlier in the thread. Watchmen is a deconstruction and won't make sense if you don't have a good feel of the average cape story first. Which is why such a story doesn't lend itself well to being adapted into a film, since casuals won't see that. From that point of view, I understand the decision to change the ending, but I can't agree with it.

Anyway, comic was good, ending makes sense if you look at it from a meta perspective, comic>movie. Though ending aside, the movie was pretty faithful and good as well. Saturday morning cartoon was the best for just doing its own thing and being very self aware about it.

>>>>535321

If cape movies had actually been true to source material and not so inaccurate in attempt to be "realistic" and grimdark before Watchmen (movie)'s release, then the squid ending might actually have made sense for the film as well.

>>535321

>What these guys said. Watchmen is essentially Moore giving the finger to superheroes as a concept by writing an entire series showing them as people with issues

Does it really work as a deconstruction, though, if it removes the most critical component of a superhero (that being superpowers) from all but one or maybe possibly sort of two of the characters?

For as much as I love Watchmen, that's always been the thing that bugs me the most about it. Yes, dressing up in a bright outfit and going out to fight crime in the streets by yourself is an absolutely absurd thing to do, and you'd probably need to be pretty fucked in the head to try it…assuming you're just a guy. But I don't really think that's a valid criticism of superheroes, because they're basically never just normal guys, and they're very rarely just fighting normal guys. If you remove the superpowers it becomes crazy, but that's sort of like saying it's crazy to sit around trying to drive a car with no engine. Of course it's going to look insane, you just ripped out the very thing that makes it work.

You could make the argument that he tackled this through Dr. Manhattan, I guess, with the notion that he'd be helping to advance humanity rather than fighting crime with his superpowers, but even that only works in the absence of the "giant threat that only he can stop!" that accounts for most of a given superhero's opponents. I dunno, maybe I'm just missing the essence of what a deconstruction is (which may be true, considering how much the word has been thrown around), but I'd always gotten the impression that the point was to keep all the essential elements in place, then demonstrate that the associated tropes/conventions don't really hold water when viewed logically. I wouldn't really say that Watchmen does that, and I actually tend not to view it as a deconstruction at all.

Hey lads if Jon is essentially god, then what is laurie?

>eve

>a whiney little bitch

>etc.

>>535361

This is the ultimate example of why I dislike Watchmen and most "Deconstructions" and "Subversions".

"You see when you change 30% of the formula then it doesn't make sense! Isn't the formula stupid you guyz?"

>>535349

>>535349

>I don't think he was particularly giving superheroes the finger with the Watchmen, since it's as much a parody of the genre as it is a deconstruction. I believe Moore and Gibbons were naively trying to create a complex superhero comic […]

I think this is how it started out. If I recall correctly, Moore just wanted to do a murder mystery with old superhero characters, then the book kinda spiraled out of control.

>>535321

>Which is why such a story doesn't lend itself well to being adapted into a film, since casuals won't see that.

I sort of disagree. It would have worked fine if they got somebody other than Snyder to direct it. Someone who really understood what the source material was about.

>>535361

>Does it really work as a deconstruction, though, if it removes the most critical component of a superhero (that being superpowers) from all but one or maybe possibly sort of two of the characters?

Yes, since it's a deconstruction of costumed vigilantism as a whole. The Minutemen era of masks is unambiguously presented as a rather embarrassing fad in retrospect, undermined by the changing times and the lack of actual villains to compliment them. The point behind Dr. Manhattan being the only person with superpowers is that his very existence spells the death knell for masked vigilantes before Ozy and friends even hit the scene. Adding more than one superpowered person would probably make the whole thing more dystopic/edgy than necessary.

>>535371

Jon's emotional tether to humanity. Really, the very circumstances of her conception were enough to convince him to at least not give up on Earth.

>>535099

I will say that having Nite Owl actually be there and reacting to Rorschach's (I guess you'd call it) suicide was definitely a lot better than in the comic where they just had him and Silk celebrate Ozymandias's victory over them by fucking for the 8 millionth time.

>>535695

I don't think they were celebrating shit. If anything, they were trying to comfort each other over the fact that a lot of people died and they couldn't do anything about it. I will concede that having Nite Owl witness Rorschach's death was probably the only highlight of all the alterations in the film.

>>535695

>I will say that having Nite Owl actually be there and reacting to Rorschach's (I guess you'd call it) suicide was definitely a lot better than in the comic

Really now? It went completely against his character. In the book, he was a pathetic faggot through and through, and in the movie, he kinda redeemed himself at the end in that regard by throwing Ozymandias around. Also, since he has changed his mind about it, why doesn't he expose Ozymandias but goes back to crimefighting instead?

>>535447

>any criticism of capeshit is reddit

Capeshit is shit.

>>535044

>Well /co/ its time to stop jacking off

How dare you, sir!

It's never time to stop jacking off.

Never!

>>535351

i never thought about it that way,but might be onto something there

i liked the movie ending and always thought that a giant squid thing would never work on film

>>535046

>>535960

Never saw the film, but I speculate that the reason the squid was not in it is more because Zack Snyder, the writers and the Producers did not understand the main ideas of the novels.

>>536715

Snyder is enough of a fanboy to actually put squid in it (he wanted Black Freighter in cinematic release as well). That was supposedly the original plan, but ending was re-written.

There were many Watchmen scripts, some of which made Voidt into a generic villain, or replaced squid with an environmental catastrophe or terrorists. One of them even involved Dr. Manhattan being a threat to world's economic and political structures, and Voidt had a plan to convince Manhattan to go back in time and prevent himself from being created.

We probably ended up with the best possible film.

>>536729

>There were many Watchmen scripts, some of which made Voidt into a generic villain, or replaced squid with an environmental catastrophe or terrorists. One of them even involved Dr. Manhattan being a threat to world's economic and political structures, and Voidt had a plan to convince Manhattan to go back in time and prevent himself from being created.

Christ, Anon, that sounds horrifying.

But even if that's true, Snyder still got basic things about the book wrong. Like Nite Owl, or the general feel; Watchmen isn't a superhero comic, and he basically turned it into a superhero movie.

I will say this, though, embed related is one of the best things I've ever seen and deserves it's own little oscar.

>>535893

Here's your reply.

>>536736

Fucking hell, JFK looks exactly like him

Unless that's an edited photo and not an actor

>>536736

>I will say this, though, embed related is one of the best things I've ever seen and deserves it's own little oscar.

The song that made me pick up the guitar.

This scene is just so damn good.

>>537004

>all cape comics are of a poor quality

I'm glad we agree on that.

>>537004

Jesus christ. Just kill yourself, you self hating redditfag.

>>535846

He doesn't snitch on Ozy because he's a pathetic shit. Part of him probably understands that Ozy's plan will at least work for the meantime, and he's probably just happy to be alive so why rock the boat?

>>535695

This.

I honestly hated the way they handled Owl's/specter's relationship. Like i get that they're both insecure self loathing chumps, and that sex feelsgudman.jpg but that seemed to be the entire extent of their relationship.

>millions of people just died and the person responsible is standing 10 feet away from us.. wanna fug?

>>535893

So, what's the last comic you read. I'd like to here it from someone with such superior taste.

>>536729

In the directors cut with a staggaring 186 minutes of film (Which is a little over 3 hours of movie) you actually get the black freighter storyline (which wasnt that bad in the movie) but it has no real purpose because the original writer for the black freighter comics doesnt make the squid so his existance is pointless to the plot.

Also you get a pretty great sequence of the orignal nite owl getting the life beat out of him by the knottops which is almost up there with the opening montage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-SS1QleuAs

>>536736

Watchmen the movie tried to be to superhero movies what Watchmen the comic was to superhero comics.

I think it was Joss Whedon who had a point about the issue with superhero movies; they're making the subversive and post-modern ones too early, before they've really had a chance to establish a status quo. If Watchmen had been made five-ten years later it would probably have turned out a lot better.

>>537108

Thought that kinda fit the deal with Watchmen's take on superheroes; a lot of them are egomaniacs out to make themselves look good and live out fantasies, not necessarily good people.

The tragedy of Rorschach and Ozymandias is that they're the only ones who genuinely believe in what they claim to be fighting for.

>>537301

Capeshit is shit and mercifully dying a long overdue death.

>>538114

Crap, I didn't finish my post

I wasn't implying that superhero comics are inherently bad. Many of them are bad, but most of them are boring and derivative. Capes are just nearly century long soap operas, where status quo is sacred and fads are embraced. Big two somehow managed to make people punching shit out of each other, monsters, and superpowers boring.

>>538071

>Stan Lee single-handedly created the entirety of American Comics. yay Stan Lee

Stan Lee probably believes that himself.

>>536736

>Not posting full version

Anyway movie was shit, anyone who liked it should kill themselves

>the ending of comic and movie is different

Shit, someone have a link for a scanlation? I never read the comic

>>536736

>>536736

That scene would be okay were it not for the fact that it's totally wrong for watchmen.

The beginning shares the same dull filter as the rest of the movie.

>>539194

I couldn't finde one, thanks, Anon.

bump

>>538147

>Moore is completely trustworthy, his account of stan lee is the only valid one

>>539377

>scanlation

>he doesn't know about cbrs

You must be new, considering you're treating this like some sort of manga.

Like most western comics nowadays, it comes in a digital format, no scans required. Just get yourself a comic book reader app and you're good to go. (.cbr files are technically just .zips under a different name anyway)

https://mega.nz/#!oYQwzKgQ!VZtUhGM4hEgD1NT9TlMdawWqJrNmAWsrJhaJowxvA0k

>>543689

Moore's not the only one saying what Moore said. Practically everyone but Stan Lee is saying what Moore said.

>>535044

>Well /co/ its time to stop jacking off and come back to our roots.

So… who watches the "Watchmen"?

>>543718

>Warren Ellis

Why am I not fucking surprised.