/cyber/ - Cyberpunk & Science Fiction

I think either number 2 or 5 would be the best, but 3 would likely be the easiest. I propose we start with 3, and if it turns out well, we move on to whatever else.

>>33709

I personally think number 2 is actually the easiest since it's all some simple maths and good ideas, compared to 3 which would require enormous amounts of writefagging unless we want to release some half-assed setting. However, 5 would probably be the coolest, but it would be a huge amount of work and probably not a good idea if it's our first time designing a game.

>>33789

>>33788

definitely an interesting system, one that I would play.

>>33788

>>33789

pretty interesting, i like it.

>>33802 (Cont.)

GM steps to row 6, where the thug keeps aiming, the chemmaster gets his first turn and the vet decides to shoot. Chemmaster suffered from a neurodegenerative disease during his childhood so he is fairly slow when it comes to running, but he still manages to run at 0.5m per time unit. The chemmaster decides that finding a good hiding place will be the best option, so he looks around and finds an iron dumpster that could eat quite some bullets before they become a problem; unless there is a good reason for stating otherwise (character is drugged or with abnormally low reflexes, there aren't any obvious hiding places, character just got dropped in that zone without previous knowledge), all mental checks like this are free actions as long as the character isn't engaged in another extended action that requires his attention, like aiming. Chemmaster then starts his extended action Running towards the dumpster, which is 2 meters away from there; the chemmaster will take 4 rows (row 10) to get there, but he can interrupt his extended action whenever and start acting as long as there is nothing stopping him from doing so. The vet, however, has decided to fire his gun at the thug; the player rolls for Shooting against the target number (based in either the enemy's reflexes for bullet time fun, distance or both) and adds his +2 to aiming he got from those two rows. The rolled number exceeds the target number, so the thug is randomly hit in his left leg. Since he lacks a pain editor, the shock makes him lose all his aiming bonus, and he has to roll for whether he will get stunned and/or for how long will he be stunned, but sadly he manages to pass the check and gets to act in row 7. The vet is then placed to act in row 8.

Row 7. The thug doesn't give a fuck about aiming anymore, and decides to fire at the vet. The GM rolls for Shooting at the vet, but misses by far because he sucks at this. The thug is set to have his next action in row 11.

Row 8 and the vet starts aiming again. Row 9, he keeps aiming, row 10 and he shoots, and the chemmaster has completed his extended action so he gets to attack. The vet manages to hit the thug's hand, which stuns him for one row but is not enough to kill him. The chemmaster then searches his backpack for some nasty chemical weapon grenade and throws it at the enemy, which augments his Cooldown Time by 2. The thug's next action is recalculated, and he is set to attack in row 13.

Row 11 and nothing happens. Row 12 and the vet attacks again. Now that the thug has been drugged, he will probably be an easy target for his next shot, so he doesn't need to aim. The thug is then killed by a shot to his head.

The only downside to this system is that it pretty much requires you to draw a table for each combat, but at least it's fairly easy to handle once you have done that. For extra fun, players may not get to look at the turn order, and you could choose to delay an action any number of rows to be able to react to another action or simply to confuse the enemy and making it think you have a different reaction time (against the GM it's fairly useless, but it could be used by the GM or in PvP). Only fairly specific actions would require spanning an extra amount of turns (like taking out a rifle from a suitcase and building it, or performing modifications to tech items, or introducing a long input into a device…), as most of them could be completed into a single row to simplify stuff.

Also, I like d10 systems, but let's make it 2d10 to avoid too much randomness regarding crits and critfails.

Bump.

>>33802

I think segmentation into time blocks, along with a grid-style timeline where players can put tokens for their planned actions and whatnot, would make it much easier.

I don't like cooldowns as a rule, they feel MMOish, but I'll read through your idea more thoroughly.

Another thing: If we go this granular, I say we use a standard grid for combat (maybe even hex-based, since hexes are schway), and when you're moving between grid cells, you place your character/figurine/token/whatever on the border between those two cells.

2d10 is sexy as a rule, though I'm not the biggest fan of the bell curve you get. We'll need to crunch numbers so DCs don't get retarded.

I remember once I wanted to make a game. Except it was a card game. And not cyberpunk related at all. It was complicated where the aim is to place a card on the table and if your number matches then the person whos turn it is to guess which card has which number (e.g; card in your fifth hand has a number two) then they keep the card and it goes on until someone reaches a total number of 130 (all numbers on each card taken from the opponent). If they run out of cards, they start another round. God this brought back memories. I'm going to go make this a reality now.

>>34042

>I think segmentation into time blocks, along with a grid-style timeline where players can put tokens for their planned actions and whatnot, would make it much easier.

Yeah. It would be more or less like Final Fantasy's Active Time Battle system, but done one paper and with an added tactical aspect due to being able to move.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_System#Active_Time_Battle

>I don't like cooldowns as a rule, they feel MMOish, but I'll read through your idea more thoroughly.

Well, I called them cooldowns, but it's basically how much does the character have to wait between actions. Higher reflexes characters get to make more actions per combat than lower reflexes characters since their reaction/recovery time is lower. For example, when firing a gun, a high reflexes character will be able to fire a gun and recover completely from recoil in two steps, while a low reflexes character will take 6 steps to get a grip of the gun again. This applies to all reflexes actions, although the explanation behind it may be completely different.

>Another thing: If we go this granular, I say we use a standard grid for combat (maybe even hex-based, since hexes are schway), and when you're moving between grid cells, you place your character/figurine/token/whatever on the border between those two cells.

I actually prefer meters-based systems since they allow for a more flexible approach to movement and aren't as videogame-y as grids (in other words, it's easier to imagine meters than hexagons). If we go with the hex approach we will need to set up some table to check how much hexagons can characters run each turn (between 0.5 and 5 or 6 I guess, because anything else would be sportscar-tier) depending on how much they spent on their movement stat, but:

>This means there would be no reason to spend any more points in your movement than those required to upgrade to the next tier (why spend 16 points if 15 points already grant me 2 mov?)

>It would be really fucking weird to represent floating point distances (ie. "every three steps you get an extra hexagon you can move")

Whereas with meters, you can simply divide the RUN stat by 10 and get your exact m/step stat.

Of course, meters are harder to handle for GM, so ease of use works in favour of hexagons. We have to discuss this further because there may be some way to make hexagons optional by letting the GM translate meters to hexagons.

>2d10 is sexy as a rule, though I'm not the biggest fan of the bell curve you get

It's not exactly a bell curve, since 2d10 generates some kind of triangle, but I get what you are saying. The reason I didn't mention 3d10 is that bell curves make rolls way too predictable, as they will almost always land on 14-15-16, which makes the player less prone to take risks as with more random systems, where your roll may supply your lack of skill.

However, 1d10 is way too random, and while it's pretty funny to get crits in 10% of the rolls, it's a bummer to also have a 10% critfail chance. With 2d10 you get a 1% chance to critfail and/or crit, which is very little but at least it's not 0.5% like with 3d10. What's good about 2d10 is that getting a 3 is much more likely than getting a 2 in the same way getting a 4 is much more likely than getting a 3. The pyramid makes that 10 will be the most common roll most of the time, but rolling a 6 or a 15 won't be as rare as with a bell curve, that practically kill any other results than 14-15-16.

The other option is using a 1d10 system like Cyberpunk 2020 and implementing some damage control mechanics to avoid dumb situations like a surgeon who has performed thousands of cyst removals to let his patient bleed out because he happened to roll a 1.

Another option would be using a 1d20 system, which has a 5% chance of critfail, but d20 suck.

>>34069

d20 is overused.

One of the easiest ways to handle critfail retardation is to allow people to take the mean roll result (in this case, 11) for tasks with a low enough DC, or where their modifier is high enough.

If we go with a single-die system, I say we use exploding dice for crits. I've always liked exploding dice.

>>34097

2d10 would probably do well without any retardation prevention mechanisms since 1% is too low. You can always fuck up in the dumbest tasks in real life so it wouldn't be farfetched, although we could add some sort of further prevention mechanics such as "if your Stat + Skill level is over 35, you may flip a coin to decide whether your fail is indeed a critfail or a simple unsuccessful roll", which would reduce your critfail chances to 0.5% if you are a master of that skill.

>Exploding dice

Mah chombatta.

Maybe we could set up some sort of "damage control" mechanics, such as

>Roll 1d10 after a critfail

>If your previous roll (Stat + Skill + 1) minus said 1d10 is still over or equal to the target difficulty, you may reroll the task at +2/+3 difficulty

>If your previous roll minus said 1d10 is under the target difficulty, I am sorry but you have critfailed

>If your Stat + Skill is over 18, you may flip a coin to decide whether you have critfailed or just failed

This would prevent experienced characters from fucking up in the most basic tasks, which is one of the main problems of Cyberpunk 2020.

Both rules would reduce the critfail chance of really experienced characters to 0.5%, so I guess it reduces to whether you like the higher granularity/customization and stability of a 2d10-based system or the crazy randomness of an exploding 1d10 system.

>not using Shadowrun 3E with BP gen and banning magic and metahumans

>>33788

That feels to me like it'd require a certain amount of bookkeeping. It's certainly a good idea to keep it to segments of 1/10th of a second because you can use a spare die to count it. However, I can't help but feel it'd be a little clumsy. Maybe I'd need to play it myself to get it and why you're not using BRP's Strike Ranks.

>>33802

I always interpreted getting extra turns in Shadowrun combat as moving so fast you can do two (or more) things whereas a regular meatbag would manage one.

Additionally: d100 best mechanic.

>>34112

>I always interpreted getting extra turns in Shadowrun combat as moving so fast you can do two (or more) things whereas a regular meatbag would manage one.

It still makes more sense for 2fast characters to attack earlier than the other characters, specially if we go with the "higher reflexes means slow-mo perception" approach. However, your explanation definitely makes it easier to understand.

>d100

d100 and other non difficulty based systems can get pretty dumb with characters with above average skills. I remember when my CoC medium was able to recall the importance of eclipses in summoning rituals, but not what the hell meant a bloody pentagram drawn inside a circle.

Both very difficult and very easy tasks have the same chance of success by default, and only rely on very limited difficulty modifiers to shift a bit the likeness of success.

>>34113

You have to understand that 2fast4u characters going first is imba as shit, so in the interest of keeping combat somewhat fair in that you aren't immediately fucked in the ass if you didn't take improved reflexes it grants extra turns. It's a bit like the Essence rule; it may sound like bullshit, but it's balancing bullshit.

I like d100 because it's easy to bullshit for and I tend to like low powered games.

>>34156

>You have to understand that 2fast4u characters going first is imba as shit

Well yes, indeed. Cyberpunk 2013 is batshit insane in this regard, since all characters wanting to stay relevant in combat (or simply to survive) have to get 10 REF and then a Kerenzikov, or else they will be killed by everyone else before they get to react.

What's worse is that there are theoretical levels post-Kerenzikov, available only with all initiative implants and then some drugs. Remember that Futurama episode where Fry drinks 100 cups of coffee in a single day? Well, that's how it feels being a chromed up junkie in Cyberpunk 2013.

>Essence

I am afraid we will also have to include something like that in our system because otherwise implants can get out of hand pretty easily. We could go the Grimm's Cybertales route, with different kinds of mental illnesses arising from using different kinds of implants, or we could go for a more traditional approach of GM-set arbitrary progressive madness depending on your mental health level, which could be defined by your Empathy/Charisma stat or be a whole different stat altogether.

However, we better fluff it up better than Cyberpunk 2020 did, because the explanation behind Empathy degradation assumes every character reacts the same way to implants and Empathy loss, which takes away a lot of roleplay agency from the players.

>I like d100 because it's easy to bullshit for and I tend to like low powered games.

Considering how retarded can cyborgs get, I doubt this will be low-powered. Definitely not superhero-tier or Exalted-tier, but definitely above most Basic Roleplay systems.

>>34167

If your focus was to be on thugs, gangsters, and other assorted low-lives without the dosh for going faster than Sonic on speed then d100 would work quite handily. Outside of that it's probably a better idea to use d10s or d20s. Maybe even the oft-forgotten d12. Course, d100 can get a bit ludicrous if you scale it right - see the 40k RPGs where a starting character from Deathwatch will easily outclass a starting character from Only War.

>>34167

>I am afraid we will also have to include something like that in our system because otherwise implants can get out of hand pretty easily.

Eclipse Phase has the same problem, so some fan came up with a complexity-system to solve it. Basically, the more implants you have, the higher is the chance that one of them has malignant effects. I don't recall the exact mechanics behind it, but I like the idea. Could work very well with "slots", so to speak. You could have implants for your skin, brain, digestive system, general genetic enhancements, nanobots and so on. For your brain, for example, you could roll a d20 on a table with side effects ranging from nothing (1-8) to mild headaches (9-10) to spasms (11-12) and so on, with increasing severity, going up to multiple personalities that are controlled by the GM if you have bad luck. You would roll for each implant, but for later implants, the roll would be harder. It could be 1d20+2 for the second implant or 1d20+4 for the third, for example. Eventually, you couldn't stack more implants without suffering a side effect of some sorts.

>>34237

Alertness/Perception would be a good stat if you were going to incorporate dumpster diving.

Luck could be interesting, but I wouldn't have any idea how it would be implemented.

I also think we should take a page from Paranoia and have a security pass system that can be bypassed with forgeries with that being a skill.

If I'm putting the cart before the horse feel free to let me know.

>>34237

Make it so that skills of over 100 only fumble on 00 and re-roll the fumble at skill-100. Guy with Gun 128 tries to cap a bitch, fumbles, and then re-rolls with a 28% chance of success.

For skill increases, drop them to a d4 so they don't increase too fast and make them increase on crits, fumbles, and exceptionally cool things.

This is all going off of a BRP-like base.

>implants are supposed to be relatively cheap in almost all cyberpunk settings, enough to be afforded by the common populace

Nobody says you have to be like all the other settings. Alternatively, lower the starting dosh of characters.

>>34301

>Nobody says you have to be like all the other settings. Alternatively, lower the starting dosh of characters.

Well, it just isn't the same without implants. I agree players shouldn't be able to start heavily augmented (unless we go with something like Shadowrun's priority system), since I have played some CP2020 characters where I got lucky dosh rolls that were nothing short of Terminators, but forcing players to have negligible to no implants just wouldn't feel right.

>>34274

Paranoia features a security clearance system based on colors of the visible spectrum which heavily restricts what the players can and cannot legally do; everything from corridors to food and equipment have security restrictions. The lowest rating is Infrared, but the lowest playable security clearance is Red; the game usually begins with the characters having just been promoted to Red grade. Interfering with anything which is above that player's clearance carries significant risk.

The full order of clearances from lowest to highest is Infrared (visually represented by Black), Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet, and Ultraviolet (visually represented by White). Within the game, Infrared-clearance citizens live dull lives of mindless drudgery and are heavily medicated, while higher clearance characters may be allowed to demote or even summarily execute those of a lower rank and those with Ultraviolet clearance are almost completely unrestricted and have a great deal of access to The Computer; they are the only citizens that may (legally) access and modify the Computer's programming, and thus Ultraviolet citizens are also referred to as "High Programmers". Security clearance is not related to competence or even authority: clearance is instead a measure of The Computer's trust in a citizen.

Pulled from shitipedia, but it does explain the basics of it, though if forgeries are possible in Paranoia, I wouldn't know 'cause I haven't actually played it, but I did read through the manual a few times. Not enough interest among those I know.

I think were that incorporated forgery would be a skill reliant on INT and TECH, unless you don't want shared skills.

>>34374

Oh, you mean the IROYGBIVU security clearances. I thought you were talking about some hacking system used in Paranoia.

Yes, Forgery is a must have skill for the game, although I am unsure about how could those security clearance levels be implemented in a way that doesn't arbitrarily restrict players which is exactly what happens in Paranoia and the reason the game is so absurd. Maybe it should only come into account when talking about "official" stuff (read as: government servers and archives, Lawgivers, etc) or as a netrunning-only stat?

>I think were that incorporated forgery would be a skill reliant on INT and TECH, unless you don't want shared skills.

More than INT AND TECH, INT OR TECH, to keep difficulties in check. That or making a median of both stats.

It could be interesting to make Skills that could work with different Stats depending on the situation (for example, which stat would the Videogames skill use? Shooters and action games could use REF, strategy and puzzle games could use INT, rhythm games could use TECH, dance games could use AGI, etc) but I am unsure how to differentiate from a TECH and an INT forgery.

>>34428

Careful, lad. You're getting into Harnmaster territory there. How about having the bases for some skills be based on a sum of two stats, while others based on a stat * 2? RuneQuest II did this and it worked okay. Alternatively, if the system uses smaller numbers, swap stat + stat for the averaging of two stats and stat * 2 for stat on its own.

Before we worry about this, though, we should figure out our central mechanical base. How do you roll skill checks? Attribute checks? Opposed rolls?

Also, my vote for statblock is Strength, Toughness, Awareness, Luck, Knowledge, Empathy, and Reflexes (STALKER).

>>34462

Alternatively, it can be written Strength, Luck, Awareness, Constitution, Knowledge, Empathy, Reflexes (SLACKER).

>>34462

Those stats would work well for a BRP-like system where stats usually don't factor in your rolls and instead modify other parameters, but if we are to use a Stat + Skill + Roll difficulty-based system, then some skills would be fairly redundant.

For example, which skills roll for Toughness and which skills roll for Strength? They aren't quite the same thing, but you would expect a strong guy to be tough as well. If we are to separate both at least one of them would probably end up with less than 3 skills. Unless you mean Toughness as a measure about how tough you look and act, though.

Same for Awareness. I can't think of any skills other than itself that would use the Awareness stat. It sure is an important skill, but I don't think it deserves being promoted to a one-trick-pony stat.

I would combine Strength and Toughness in one stat then swap Toughness for Technology (that way Knowledge wouldn't get too cluttered) and Awareness for Agility (to balance Reflexes, which otherwise would be the only stat to ever be used in combat) or Attractive (because fuck, I wanna look pretty).

Another option would be finding another acronym that supports Intelligence instead of Knowledge to throw the Awareness skill in there, because sadly I can't see it working with any other stat. It could be funny if we simply invent a new word with all the letters we need and then use that word as a replacement of SCHWAY in the game's universe.

>>34469

Shame, I liked SLACKER. Toughness was an ersatz CON, by the way, as evidenced by how I replaced it with CON for SLACKER (my favourite of the two). The importance is to realise I was finding synonyms of the traditional D&D stats to make the acronym, so Awareness was an ersatz Wisdom. Luck was put in as I needed a 7th letter, and can be swapped for Looks if you want to be pretty.

The point on how we roll is valid, though - I don't think we have a central mechanic yet. I'm merely here to bounce ideas (I use Shadowrun 3E with the fantasy gutted, as mentioned) anyway.

Consider using Gibsonrun with Cyberpunk 2020's setting if in a week or two we're still talking about rolling mechanics like /tech/ talks about logos.

So let's put aside the rhetoric and get around the negotiating table; pools or fixed die/dice? Fixed TNs or variable TNs? Number of sides on the dice? Rolling high or low?

>>34498

What's wrong with using Knowledge for INT?

D12s are woefully underused in gaming and I would like to find some way to use them, even if it's to count initiative steps in combat. Rolling high it is.

What's the best way to do skill checks with the least maths possible?

>>34539

Why not just do the normal stat + skill + dice (if there is one) and +- modifiers?

>>34543

I merely wondered if there were a way to do it with less maths. I suppose there's no reason not to. What about d12+skill? Separate skills into categories, then use a quick bit of maths to give the categories their bonuses, then add points? 12s explode, of course. This (in theory) can avoid god-stats by having bonuses be based on more than one stat, but also means a little more table lookup during cha-gen.

>>34545

Well you could try it, but i feel like it is taking one part of what stats are useful away.

>>34546

It also brings some stats a little further up. On top of that, it can help split up the tech skills from the brain skills a little.

>>34539

>What's wrong with using Knowledge for INT?

Awareness/Perception is a must-have skill, and it wouldn't fit inside Knowledge's definition. Intelligence is already a bit of a stretch (although you could always find ways to fluff it up and make it bearable), hence why I prefer using Sharpness for INT, but it truly doesn't fit in any of the others.

>D12s are woefully underused in gaming and I would like to find some way to use them

If we use >>34543 there is no reason why we couldn't make a game in base 12/24 (STAT_MAX_VALUE = 24, SKILL_MAX_VALUE = 24, DICE_MAX_VALUE = 24, MAX_NATURAL_ROLL = 72), although you might confuse some players a bit by using not-so-intuitive non-decimal bases, and d12 aren't as common as d20 or d10. Fuck casuals, tho.

What I really like about 12 is that you can always replace them by 2d6 if you prefer a pyramidal roll probablity chart instead of a flat one.

>What about d12+skill? Separate skills into categories, then use a quick bit of maths to give the categories their bonuses, then add points?

Expand on this, please. It sounds interesting, but I am not sure if I understood it well. You mean making medians of some stats (for example. Other different modifiers may apply) and using them as a derived stat that will be used in the dice computation instead of the stat itself?

ie. Seduction is actually a LOOKS/EMPATHY skill and is rolled using the median of Looks and Empathy.

>What's the best way to do skill checks with the least maths possible?

Probably >>34543 . The alternative would be precomputing STAT + Skill for each skill, but it would be a nightmare during chargen and also a nightmare to update if the STAT changes during the game due to implants or whatever.

>>34549

It means putting each skill into a category, such as Social. For the Social category modifier you'd take, as an example, EMP & LKS and look on the table. EMP has more bearing on being able to talk to people, but LKS help. You could also argue the INT stand-in in there too because you need to know what to say. You then look on the "major" table to find the effect of EMP on Social, then the "minor" table to find the effects of LKS and INT on it.

The major table would be similar to AD&D's mods table, while the minor table is the same but with everything shifted over (D&D example: a 13 is a +1 on major, and a 13 is a +0 on minor).

You add the category mods to skill bases as per D20 System's attribute mods.

Sorry if that's a bad explanation.

>>34498

I can't make it work outside of the original SLACKER, so here's a bit of fluffing out:

>Strength

You gotta be strong to slug that chromeboy who insulted your mirrorshades as being too last decade.

>Looks

Looks can get you into places, chummer.

>Awareness

Awareness of your surroundings and of yourself is an important thing, friendo. Knowing that Dack Blackripper hates having his drink spilled is one thing, but the awareness that YOU just spilled his drink is another.

>Constitution

Not so important for the deckers, but you never know when someone might slip you a poison or run a mile.

>Knowledge

You gotta know shit on the streets.

>Empathy

Something street samurais and corporate bigwigs lack.

>Reflexes

Fast thinking is the difference between a missing finger and a missing arm.

Now, for a D&D derivative, this would be a bit screwy. However, the category system for skill bonuses I suggested will keep Awareness from being a one-trick pony. You need Awareness to sneak. You need Awareness to hack the gibson. You need Awareness to spot that this is a quick justification for the original list because I can't think of how to rename everything to fit the acronym and can't think of another one.

>>34552

So, let me check if I got this alright.

>Assuming d12 base

>Catherine has 10 EMP, 16 LOOKS (future plastic surgery is one hell of a drug) and 10 INT, which means she probably sucks at combat.

>She wants to roll to Seduce a security guard so the rest of the team may sneak in securely

>Catherine looks up her Social skills table, which has a total modifier that was precomputed during chargen

>Said modifier was calculated as follows: EMP + minor(LOOKS) + minor(INT)

>minor() is a table lookup function. Values of 10 (inclusive) to 12 (exclusive) will give a +1 to the total modifier, while values of 12 (inclusive, highest natural value), to 16 (exclusive) will return a modifier of +2. Numbers over 16 (inclusive) to 24 (exclusive, shit-what-are-you-doing-with-your-humanity STAT level) will return a modifier of +3, while 24 and anything over it will return a +4 modifier

>The variables are resolved to 12 + 3 + 1 = 16

>The Social modifier is +16, which is then added to her Seduction skill, which is +11 because she is one of those girls. 16 + 11 = 27.

>The security guard is a bulky, tall, bald Russian guy in a suit and shades with a dead serious stare. You could swear the separation between his shoulders is at least one meter wide. However, as with most corporate security guards, the man has been implanted with a sexual desire implant nullifier neuralware module as specified in his contract, which makes rolling Seduction against him nearly impossible (36 TN)

>Catherine just decides to risk it because gunning down such a monster would be even more difficult and they would raise all the alarms

>Catherine rolls her d12 and gets a 9. 27 + 9 = 36, which is just enough to succeed

>Catherine whispers something into the security guard's ear, both giggle and they leave the corridor, making way for the rest of edgerunners

Sounds fairly good, although we will have to adjust the preset TN (because it's always good the set tiers to let the GM understand what could be considered difficult and what isn't) to contemplate the possiblity of a 12-12-12 Mary Sue having a grand total of +16 to rolls just after initial chargen.

>>34553

The fluff sounds pretty cool, and the new modifiers system may be able to make up for the lack of stats, but I am worried about the lack of WILL.

I guess you could make DEX out of Reflexes + minor(Awareness) and AGI from Reflexes + minor(Constitution) or Constitution + minor(Reflexes), but making a WILL stat (mental strength, intimidation and everything related to intimidation) would be a bit more difficult, unless we imply Constitution means mental Constitution too.

>>34554

Something like that, with lower numbers. I tend to think in +1, +2, and +3 for stats affecting rolls in most cases.

I didn't think of a stat for mental strength. Shit. Uno momento.

>Strength

>Looks

>Agility

>Constitution

>Knowledge

>Empathy

>Resolve

There we go.

>>34555

>>34555

>Something like that, with lower numbers. I tend to think in +1, +2, and +3 for stats affecting rolls in most cases.

Problem with making the main stat a table lookup function is that players might disregard those stats and put just enough to advance to the next tier. Like, why buy a single Agility booster implant that will grant me +3 AGI if the last tier is 12 and the next one would require me to buy half of the implants table?

With a whole stat plus smaller table lookup modifiers, you might want to try to buff your main stat as much as you want, and then complement it with smaller modifiers that aren't really critical but always come in handy.

The +4 modifier was there just in case someone decided to buy all of the implants regarding that stat and then taking drugs to further increase their level up to retarded levels. Very little characters could reach said modifier, and only if the GM is benevolent enough to let them go that far. That said, characters with those modifiers would need to lookup another "superhuman tasks TNs" table when rolling to do the most over-the-top things you could imagine. This would only apply to Pink Mohawk games, of course.

>Strength

>Looks

>Agility

>Constitution

>Knowledge

>Empathy

>Resolve

Looks solid, but now we must figure out how to mix them up to make Awareness.

>>34561

Rename Knowledge to Keenness, I guess. Here're some category suggestions with some example skills.

Combat: AGL (ma), STR (mi), KEE (mi). Reasons: AGL feels self explanatory. STR isn't as important as you'd think for melee, and can help brace a gun in a firefight. KEE is needed to know a weakness, and knowing is half the battle.

>Pistol

>SMG

>Sword

Social: EMP (ma), LKS (mi), RES (mi). Reasons: You can't convince people if you can't empathise. Looks can mean the difference between being creepy and being charming. Having a conviction in what you're saying can sway people over.

>Persuasion

>Seduction

>Read People

Physical: AGL (ma), STR (mi), CON (mi). Reasons: Being limber and having good form is worth much more than raw power unless you want to be going to snap city. STR and CON are pretty self explanatory on.

>Dodge

>Athletics

>Stealth

Mental: KEE (ma), RES (mi). Reasons: Have you ever met an unmotivated academic? KEE is self explanatory.

>Science

>Knowledge

>Perception

>First-Aid

Technical: AGL (ma), KEE (mi). Reasons: You will fuck up if you've got shit hand-eye coordination. It'll always help to be able to understand what you're doing.

>Lockpicking

>Repair

>Forgery

>>34581

>Rename Knowledge to Keenness

I have just realized we may be able to free Strength by compressing Strength and Constitution, which in D&D are different stats but in real life they are pretty intertwined.

This means we could make

>Sharpness, Looks, Agility, Constitution, Knowledge, Empathy, Resolve

>4 mind stats, 3 body stats

>Pros: Knowledge and Sharpness sound better; cons: the Strength SLACKER was divided between SLAC (body stats) and KER (mind stats). Now they are scrambled.

>Swiftness/Speed, Looks, Agility, Constitution, Keenness, Empathy, Resolve

>4 body stats, 3 mind stats

>Pros: SLAC is again the body stats block, and swiftness adds a stat capable of governing RUN or Reaction Time instead of throwing both into AGI; cons: Swiftness and Agility may be a bit redundant using that wording

>Strength/Swiftness, Looks, Agility, Constitution, Knowledge, Empathy, Resolve, Sharpness (SLACKERS)

>4 mind stats, 4 body stats

>Pros: stats have cool names, equal distribution between mind and body stats (ordered, too), more flexibility; cons: we have two S in the same acronym and that sucks since people could be confused. Could be solved by ordering the skills in a single column in the char sheet so SLACKERS can still be read after expanding them (STR/SPD/SWF, LKS, AGI, CON, KNW, EMP, RES, SHR; S.L.A.C.||K.E.R.S. for friends), and only referring to them as their three letter forms in all documents.

>Combat: AGL (ma), STR (mi), KEE (mi). Reasons: AGL feels self explanatory. STR isn't as important as you'd think for melee, and can help brace a gun in a firefight. KEE is needed to know a weakness, and knowing is half the battle.

>Social: EMP (ma), LKS (mi), RES (mi). Reasons: You can't convince people if you can't empathise. Looks can mean the difference between being creepy and being charming. Having a conviction in what you're saying can sway people over.

>Physical: AGL (ma), STR (mi), CON (mi). Reasons: Being limber and having good form is worth much more than raw power unless you want to be going to snap city. STR and CON are pretty self explanatory on.

>Mental: KEE (ma), RES (mi). Reasons: Have you ever met an unmotivated academic? KEE is self explanatory.

>Technical: AGL (ma), KEE (mi). Reasons: You will fuck up if you've got shit hand-eye coordination. It'll always help to be able to understand what you're doing.

I love how these sound, but I am unsure about Physical having STR and CON factor in that way, though. Could it be computed as (AGL+CON)/2 (P) + STR (M)?

Also, First-Aid would be a tricky skill since it does involves fine motor skills, so I would personally put it into Technical. If we decide to include Sharpness (SLACKERS route, for example), Technical could require a median of SHR and AGL and a minor of KEE or even SHR (P) + AGI (M) + KEE (M).

>>34604

A lot of those are more or less straight adaptations of BRP's implementation of this. What does the (P) mean? It makes me feel a little lost.

Just to clear it up; you take the numbers you get from the table, then all skills in the respective categories get that bonus. a Social of +3 gives +3 to all Social skills. Nothing big, nothing involving medians, simple table lookups. That way if a stat changes you don't need to redo every skill it depends on.

AD&D-like example:

>Stat - Major / Minor

>3 - -3 / -2

>4-5 - -2 / -1

>6-8 - -1 / 0

>9-12 - 0 / 0

>13-15 - +1 / 0

>16-17 - +2 / +1

>18 - +3 / +2

>>34606

(P) means primary, which is the same as Major, but allows you to cut Minor to (M).

>Just to clear it up; you take the numbers you get from the table, then all skills in the respective categories get that bonus. a Social of +3 gives +3 to all Social skills. Nothing big, nothing involving medians, simple table lookups. That way if a stat changes you don't need to redo every skill it depends on.

With Skills, you mean things such as Dodge, Lockpicking, Pistol, etc. Or do you mean Social, Combat, Mental…? We need to come up with a name for the second one since they aren't quite Stats nor Skills. Maybe Aptitudes?

My idea was to have a grand total of 6 to 8 aptitudes so recalculating after a stat increase wouldn't be that painful, specially since only 3 or 4 would take any given stat into their computation. That way, the char sheet would ask the player to fill the Aptitude modifier, then only add up Aptitude + Skill during gameplay.

Anyway, the thing about D&D is that you usually roll for stats instead of manually distributing them, so it makes a lot of sense to apply range-based table lookups to them. However, we don't know our chargen system yet, which could have rolled stats, manually distributed stats or something different. If our chargen system is manually distributed, players could simply avoid spending more than 6 points in a skill they will use as a minor from time to time instead of spending 7 or 8, since the result is the same. Rolled, however, the player has no choice but to put that 8 roll into said stat.

I think this could be solved much easier if we decided on a scale for rolls. Right now, what I am understanding is that a perfect character (100% P, 100% M, 100% M) would get a +7 modifier to rolls plus its skill level, which we haven't defined yet.

We could

>Symmetric Static: +4 max modifier for Aptitudes, +4 max modifier for Skills, d12 for dice (8 static, 12 rolled. You leave roughly 65% of your roll to chance)

>Asymmetric Static: +4 max modifier for Aptitudes, +8 to +12 modifier for skills, d12 for dice (12 to 16 static, 12 rolled. You leave between 50% to 45% to chance. Skills are much more important than stats, but still overshadowed by the dice)

>Roughly Asymmetric Static: +14 max Aptitude modifier (Major stat 100% + table lookup Minor +1 * 2), +12 to +14 max skill (natural) + d12 dice (26 to 28 static, 12 rolled. You leave slightly less than one third to chance)

This is, of course, assuming the highest numbers available naturally, which means spending 12-12-12 (natural cap since base 12) in all relevant stats and then maxing out the skill level. Whichever point distribution method we use, achieving this will be fairly difficult, so you should consider this an end-game situation. It also assumes the highest "regular" TN you can find during gameplay is the best possible outcome (naturally maxed out stats, critical dice), but they are fairly rare and will roughly have a 8% chance of succeeding for both naturally maxed out characters and non maxed out characters (since exploding dice), so let's balance the game around the most common climax difficulty level, which will be one or two tiers (to be defined) below the last tier, where the dice probability will indeed matter.

Which one should we use? It more or less boils down to whether we want to use a deterministic stat distribution system or a more traditional rolled approach.

>>34612

Also, this is assuming Major 12 is +2 and Minor 12 is +1, which probably isn't that good. The exact numbers would have to be adjusted, but you get the idea.

>>34613

We could even do away with the idea of using 12 as a base for stats and use something else.

For example, the maximum natural value for stats could be 8 (or 10 for a roughly asymmetric approach) and the maximum natural minor you could get would be +2, so the maximum Aptitude value could be +12 if you have an 8-8-8 stat distribution. Two thirds are defined by your main stat, and the other third is defined by how good you are at the other two.

Having a +12 Skill modifier would also technically make static modifiers symmetric, while keeping skill levels much more important in practice. This would leave to chance, assuming maximum available numbers, exactly one third of your roll.

Also, as a sidenote, I thought it could be fun to let players optionally roll for their stats by rolling 3d2 in order, then noting down the results and translating that to binary. 000 would become 8 for extra tension during chargen. Stats would be terribly random, but it's so dumb it could work.

>>34612

Aptitudes is a nicer name than skill categories. I like rolling for stats, personally. 2d6-1, maybe? Asymmetric works fine for me since I like skill-based gaming, but also enjoy the chance of dice.

>>34655

>I like rolling for stats, personally. 2d6-1, maybe?

I would go with 2d6 for rolls, if anything. It doesn't matter that the lowest value is 2 since most games where you roll give you a floor limit (fluff says anything below would be how-the-fuck-are-you-still-alive tier), and you could be able to get a 12 in 1% of the rolls.

Anyway, depending on how we design the modifiers system we may be able to change the way stats are acquired without affecting anything else. For example, if you want to play with stat rolls you can do so, but you could also have a fixed number of points to distribute on start, which is exactly what CP2020 does and even D&D to some extent with arrays.

>Asymmetric works fine for me since I like skill-based gaming, but also enjoy the chance of dice.

Yeah, I also love dice. It is one of the things that make tabletop gaming much different (mechanically speaking) from videogames, since we've recently started to see a rising trend of developers allergic to RNGesus. However, experienced characters shouldn't depend on luck that much, since it represents they have done stuff like that many times before and know all the ins and outs of it.

Leaving less than one third of your roll to luck seems way too videogame-y to me, but between 40% to 33% is probably that schway point between abusing chance and making your well earned modifiers terribly meaningful.

I prefer >>34647 since it is symmetrical in theory but not in practice, although it could be interesting to make skill always weight in slightly more than Aptitudes. Maybe reducing Stat rating to 5 (3 being human average) and maximum Aptitude natural limit to +9 or +8 if we factor in the sum of both Minors into the table (M(STR + CON) = M(5 + 5) = +3) and maximum skill natural limit being +12.

That or considering "base 6" either by:

>Using stat base 12, then factoring in Primary as 1/2 of its value, but having to round down always sucks. Rolled stats would be more "stable" than the second option, though.

>Using stat base 6. This would make the perfect stat configuration 6-6-6, which would be pretty fucking edgy, but at least you wouldn't have to round down. If you want to roll 1d12/2 during stat generation you could stabilize stats much more than rolling 1d6 while still not being as fucking stable as 2d6/12

Both could be rolled with either d12 or d6, which will surely appear in the table no matter what. It also makes the maximum Aptitude modifier +10, so a perfect skill level would always count 20% more than a perfect Aptitude skill, which sounds pretty schway. and much more realistic than the 50%/50% approach (a guy with 100% Sharpness, Knowledge and Resolve and a shitty Programming knowledge would never surpass a more average, yet experienced senior developer).

>>33703

We should work with /TG/ on this.

>>34854

Did you even read OP?

>/tg/ is terrible at designing mechanics

Wait until the mechanics are decided.

>>34854

/tg/ is full of good fellas and ideas, but I am afraid they tend to fuck up when it comes to designing base mechanics, maybe because they tend to rush them. We should settle on roll system, dice, stats and progression now that we can discuss them with /cyber/'s natural calm, then invite them here when we need more ideas and less dialogue (for example, for making the implants list, weapons, items, lore…).

>>34868

>>34854

Little do you know, I (the poster who came up with SLACKER, suggested d12s being used, and also the now-named Aptitudes) am from /tg/.

>>34678

Skills are the driving force behind my vision of SLACKER. Aptitudes are just how much stats weight in, and aren't meant to be relied on. The key to Aptitudes is having a stat generation system with a good average, then base it around that. Point buy can be added as an afterthought, but rolling is the main focus. If we're still using base 12 (fuck the casuals), 2d6 would be fine as the average comes to 7. Therefore, a possible Apt table would be:

>Roll - MAJ - MIN

>2 - -3 - -2

>3 - -2 - -1

>4-5 - -1 - 0

>6-8 - 0 - 0

>9-10 - +1 - 0

>11 - +2 - +1

>12 - +3 - +2

This works out pretty well to me. Let me roll 3 example statblocks, with each block separated by pipes:

>Strength: 6 | 4 | 8

>Looks: 8 | 8 | 2

>Agility: 8 | 7 | 6

>Constitution: 5 | 7 | 7

>Keenness: 8 | 8 | 2

>Empathy: 5 | 5 | 11

>Resolve: 7 | 10 | 7

As you can see, most rolls fall into the "average" category. Lets transfer those into the Aptitudes (again separated by pipes for each statblock used):

>Social: -1 | -1 | +0

>Physical: +0 | +0 | +0

>Mental: +0 | +0 | -3

>Technical: +0 | +0 | -2

>Combat: +0 | +0 | -2

This results in a lot of zeroes (except for the unlucky retard in the third example). Whether this is good or not depends on whether you'd want higher-end PCs or not, as I based my table on AD&D where a stat of 15 gives you a +1. This also makes them mean a little more, though (you best hold on tight to your guy with a +3 in something). These are of course changed when stats change as a result of cybernetics, for example.

The REAL important thing is what an average skill level is, and how to balance around it.

>>34889

Here's a sample skill list separated into Aptitudes.

Social

>Persuasion

>Seduction

>Streetwise ()

>Insight

>Perform

>Bargain

>Etiquette ()

Physical

>Dodge

>Stealth

>Athletics

>Hide

Mental

>Medicine

>Language ()

>Literacy ()

>Knowledge ()

>Awareness

>Research

>Tracking

Technical

>Lockpicking

>Pickpocket

>Decking

>Drive ()

>First-Aid

>Build/Repair ()

>Electronics

>Pilot ()

Combat

>Rifle

>Pistol

>SMG

>Shotgun

>Blade

>Blunt

>Unarmed

>>34889

I have started to grow on the idea of Primaries also working on a table lookup function since it would allow more fine-grained control, but we need to adjust the mods.

Right now, all we know is that we have a d12 and numbers to mix into a sane TN table/examples that allows for some randomness but doesn't rely on it. We may adjust:

>TN table/examples

>Table lookup bonuses

>Max/expected skill level

>Others

The first one will only come after we have thought a bit about the others, so let's start with the rest. I would propose changing the mod table as following:

>Roll - MA - MI

>2 - -2 - -1

>3 - -1 - 0

>4-5 - 0 - 0

>6-7 - +1 - +1

>8-9 - +2 - +1

>10-11 - +3 - +2

>12 - +4 - +2

>Superhuman skill levels to be determined

This expects most players to end up on the 6-7 frame, so they would get a grand total of +3 to their rolls. Worst case scenario (which would happen in <1% of the cases) would be a -4 modifier, while the best case scenario would give a +8 modifier. However, we only must have the limits into account, but not design the game around them since most players will end up having a grand total of +3 to Aptitudes.

Next, for skills, I guess it could be cool to set the starting limit at 12 (Doctor tier), but allow them to increase it further through autistic training (read as: you will have to play years long campaigns to git gud) in the future. This basically means that a regular character will get a +15 modifier to a task it has expertise in, while a "perfect character" would have a +20.

Now, when you are an expert, it's really difficult to fuck up unless you are trying to do something extremely weird. Let's assume people who have studied a career they like and/or are good at it have a total modifier of +17 to +18 (character has been built to play that role and the rolls have been distributed according to that aptitude). These people know a lot of shit about their fields and would rarely fuck up unless they are being asked to improvise.

TN Tiers could go as follow.

>TN 4 - Anyone could do it (ex. jump over a 30 cm wall). Only a retard should have to put some effort on it, whereas the rest should just try not to critfail.

>TN 8 - Only non-retards could do it easily, but it gets harder if you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject (ie. installing Ubuntu)

>TN 12 - Easy for people with a formation, really hard for people who know nothing about it, nearly impossible for retards (ie. installing Gentoo with a vague manual)

>TN 16 - Everyday stuff for an expert, nearly impossible for anyone who knows jack shit about it (ex. extirpating an appendix)

>TN 20 - An expert may fail while doing it in rare occassions (ie. really long range sniper rifle shot)

>TN 24 - Experts have a whopping 50% chance of failing this (ie. modern day brain surgery)

>TN 28 - Experts are really likely to fail such a task (ie. stopping a Chernobyl-tier reactor meltdown)

>TN 30 - "It's literally never been tried before!" (ie. developing an algorithm capable of decrypting AES-256 in a reasonable time without using quantum computing)

>TN 32 - Reserved for sonuvabitch GMs and minmaxer munchkins.

>TN >32 - You better be chromed up the wazoo for this (ie. going full danmaku on a CSWAT squad bullet storm)

Like in real life, acquired skill weights in more than natural talent, although the latter helps.

>>34953

I dig it, but I would move Hide to Mental (hiding is all about finding a spot to hide, after all) and add the Brute Force and Throw skills to Physical. Perhaps swimming could also be considered physical, and maybe even some martial arts. Combat may also have a "Weapons Specialist" skill for experimental sci-fi/heavy weapons that would otherwise be hard to qualify.

Also, I would change Bargain for Negotiation to make it more general and usable in corporate environments.

>>34954

Personally, I'd put hide under technical since it requires both the knowledge of where to hide and physical ability to not give yourself away.

I agree with Brute Force and Throw being under physical as well as changing Bargain to Negotiation.

I'd also like to suggest Whip-like to Combat since there are weapons that are ranged without you needing to let go of them completely. Better yet, call it Chain and Rope. Even better, make it a sub-category of Specialty since it is the future and not many would teach ancient weapons.

Despite some of you shazbots getting butthurt about my self promotion all you seemingly do is shill your own ideas… so I've got a member page working on my site that will eventually be dedicated to those who are interested in a deeper web! If all goes to plan I can get my cyber themed sci-fi comic together and garner some interest, provided the series is going well. Should you chummers have any suggestions use the forms provided. Visit http://virtualmech.info/bat-country.php

>>34954

Some questions on the mod table: Why does an average attribute give a +1? Why does an average minor give a +1? Why is it assumed that everyone should have a +3, which is just as good as a +0 if everyone and their dog has one? This approach reeks of D&D 3.5.

I like the TN table working in fours. The alternative would be threes, which I can't be bothered for.

How about 36 skill points base to spend?

>>34981

Have some integrity, lad.

>>34989

If by integrity you mean shilling my site despite a 90year ban from lain, then ok!

>>34989

>Why is it assumed that everyone should have a +3

Because we are balancing around a d12 and the table was made in increments of 4. 30 is supposed to be the "above average expert" peak roll, at 18 + 12, which roughly leaves 40% to chance (around 8% of probabilities of getting a 30 if your skill mod is 18, in other words), which makes the TN 28 a task experts will only succeed on in 1/4 of the times, which I considered a reasonable proportion.

We could always gear down and shift the table one level, making TN O the current TN 4, which is supposed to be an intuitive task you could only fail if you are a cripple (only 8% chances of failing if you have an average mod and 0 skill, and that's because you are critfailing), but I think it would be better to reserve the term "TN 0" for instant success tasks.

The whole stat mod table was shifted down to allow them to weight in a bit more in rolls while not making it completely unfair for characters with sucky chargen rolls.

>How about 36 skill points base to spend?

I would love to make it a multiple of 12, but I think it's a bit soon to decide on that. First, we should think about how many skills we want to include, then determine whether 36 points would allow you to dominate half of the skills table or if you would be an overspecialised loser. If the skills table ends up being just slightly bigger than this, I think 36 would be a reasonable number, although anything more would maybe even require 48.

Cyberpunk 2020 allows up to 40 base skill points, but that's because the table is like, four times bigger than this one. However, it's also true Cyberpunk 2020 isn't as reliant on skills since you get 50 stat points to distribute on a regular character, which means you could easily reach +10 in two stats if you were willing to disregard the rest a bit.

Adding on the skills list, we should add:

>Chemistry and/or Pharmacy

>Biology (gotta satisfy dem mad scientists)

>Develop () (or something like that) skill to design cutting edge hardware and/or software (Programming skill) and other stuff

>Sysadmin

>possible Hypnosis/Brainhack skill

>Dance

>Martial Arts

>Acrobatics if Athletics refers to running

>Stamina

>Surgery

>Intimidation

>Interrogation

>Command

>Mathematics

>Disguise

>Forgery

>Art ()

>Play Instrument () or add a () to Peform

>Cybernetics

I guess some of these could be thrown inside Knowledge or Literacy, but it would be interesting to explicitly list them instead of leaving them as a wildcard field since they are very important in cyberpunk.

>>35027

Adding the skills you listed to the list >>34953 posted in the spots I think they'd fit best in. Feel free to modify.

Social

>Persuasion

>Seduction

>Streetwise ()

>Insight

>Perform ()

>Negotiation

>Etiquette ()

>Intimidation

>Interrogation

>Command

Physical

>Dodge

>Stealth

>Athletics

>Hide

>Acrobatics

>Stamina

>Dance

Mental

>Medicine (I think Pharmacy would fall under medicine unless you want to swap it out.)

>Language ()

>Literacy ()

>Knowledge ()

>Awareness

>Research

>Tracking

>Mathematics

>Brainhack

Technical

>Lockpicking

>Pickpocket

>Decking

>Drive ()

>First-Aid

>Build/Repair ()

>Electronics

>Pilot ()

>Disguise

>Cybernetics

>Art

>Surgery

>Develop ()

>Sysadmin

Combat

>Rifle

>Pistol

>SMG

>Shotgun

>Blade

>Blunt

>Unarmed (Martial Arts would fit here.)

>Experimental

How's this?

>>35037

Physcial

>Aesthetics*

>>34990

Your website is pretty shitty you need to make it look better. Cut the noir-early-2000's look and make a functional site with a few cyber fonts and colours. I may sound like a minimalist shill but there's a scientifically-backed reason as to why these sites get more traction than old-looking site. Believe it or not, all the chans follow a similar design pattern that adheres to the research.

>>35037

For social you should add a distancing aspect to preserve your character. I.e; govcorp is following you, you don't want to interrogate them or negotiate with them, you'd like to do something like Isolate (to isolate from the scenario mentally and/or physically). I probably wouldn't use hide for it though since what happens if you're already caught? Negotiation isn't the best. Distance/Isolation (pick your word) should be there IMO.

>>35027

Just use a Science () skill for compsci, biology, etc - I recall Mike Pondsmith saying the only houserule CP2020 needs is a shorter skill list. I'd rather we just shift everything down as you said, since the only time you roll for the "extremely fucking easy" TN in games is if you have a shit GM. Fix the ability to be gimped on snake-eyes by having a re-roll policy in char-gen, such as "if you have below x amount as your total stats reroll", or give a number of d6 which can be re-rolled, or use 2d6 drop lowest. This way the shit options are reserved for the really unlucky - no fun without danger after all.

Here's my revision of the skill list I posted.

Social

>Persuasion

>Seduction

>Streetwise ()

>Insight

>Perform ()

>Negotiation

>Etiquette ()

>Interrogation

Physical

>Dodge

>Stealth

>Athletics

>Intimidation [you have to be a big guy 4 him]

>Acrobatics

>Dance

>Brawn

>Stamina

>Hide

Mental

>Medicine

>Language ()

>Literacy ()

>Knowledge ()

>Awareness

>Research

>Tracking

>Science ()

Technical

>Lockpicking

>Pickpocket

>Drive ()

>First-Aid

>Build/Repair ()

>Electronics

>Pilot ()

>Art ()

>Surgery

>Computer Use [Decking was rolled into here - have decks give a bonus to CU rolls]

Combat

>Rifle

>Pistol

>SMG

>Shotgun

>Blade

>Blunt

>Unarmed

>Martial Arts () [make it so if you pass an Unarmed roll which you'd pass if it were a MA roll have bonus effects - e.g., if you have +5 Unarmed and +3 Martial Arts and you get a 9 on your roll with a TN of 12, you'd apply a bonus effect to your attack based on your discipline (can also work with edged weapons and blunt depending on the discipline)]

>Implant combat () [someone will want to go Jensen]

>>35049

Distribution for 2d6 drop lowest: http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php?dice=3d6D1#

Most people will get a +1 using my original table and that rolling method with a good chance of a +2 with the +3 kept somewhat elusive (7.4% chance of a 12 vs 2.8%).

>>35050

Ah shit, that wasn't a solid link. I'm sure you guys can type it out yourselves to check.

>>35037

Pretty complete, but

>Pharmacy may be used by some low lifes that could know jack shit about medicine (ie. meth cook). Balance-wise it makes sense to put it into Medicine, but role-wise it would be better to keep it separated.

>Chemistry and Pharmacy may be merged if they are separated from Medicine

>Merge Sysadmin and Decking into Sysop as mentioned by >>35049 , then move to Mental. Technical is supposed to have AGI (MA) + KNW (MA), and it would only make sense if deckers were guaranteed to use a keyboard (the alternative being cyberjacks) to require those fast fingers.

>Merge Cybernetics into Develop () and then move to Mental

>Change Art into Plastic Arts. Composition and Writing would probably go into Mental or even Social

The rest sounds good.

>>35048

You mean "blending in" with other people to avoid interrogation? You could use Hide or Disguise for that.

>>35049

>I recall Mike Pondsmith saying the only houserule CP2020 needs is a shorter skill list

He also said he liked Cyberpunk v3.0 better, but I guess I understand why he said the shorter skill list. CP2020 has autistic amounts of skills, and some of them are never used (like Zoology, which is a fucking MedTech core skill for some reason, or Botany), but reducing all sciences to a single skill without explicitly citing what can said skill become after specializing could be a recipe for disaster. Players may get too overspecialised by accident, or maybe even have "too wide" specializations. To avoid rules lawyering during chargen, we should point out what are the recommended options for those skills.

The following skills were taken straight from CP2020's skill list

CLASS SKILLS

>Authority, Charismatic Leadership, Combat Sense, Credibility, Family, Interface, Jury Rig, Medical Tech, Resources, Streetdeal

I don't know if our game will have classes with special skills, but some of these were already included in your list with different names.

ATTRACTIVE (Looks)

>Personal Grooming, Wardrobe & Style

Yeah, ATTR just has two skills under vanilla rules (Seduction can have ATTR factoring in, as specified by the corebook, but it's not the default) that could be merged in a single one.

BODY==(Constitution/Strength)

>Endurance (our Stamina), Strength Feat (our Brawn/Brute Force), Swimming

People with high BODY are lucky it is a stat that's useful for lots of other skills, because it's fairly useless for rolls.

COOL/WILL (Resolve)

>Interrogation, Intimidate, Oratory, Resist Torture/Drugs, Streetwise

I think putting Intimidate here makes sense, or at least one part of intimidation. If you are going to creep someone out during a phone call, your strength won't factor in no matter what.

EMPATHY

>Human Perception (allows detection of subtle emotional clues), Interview, Leadership (our Command), Seduction, Social, Persuasion & Fast Talk (our Negotiation), Perform

Interview and Social are fairly redundant as the difference between them has to be explained in the skill description, but otherwise this is fine.

INTELLIGENCE (Knowledge/Sharpness)

>Accounting, Anthropology, Awareness/Notice, Biology, Botany, Chemistry, Composition, Diagnose Illness, Education & Gen. Know., Expert (), Gamble, Geology, Hide/Evade, History, Language, Library Search (our Research), Mathematics, Physics, Programming, Shadow/Track (tracking), Stock Market, System Knowledge (Sysop would fall in here. It's basically cyberspace Streetwise), Teaching, Wilderness Survival, Zoology

As you can notice, some of these are so fringe they will never be used (perfect candidates for a parenthesis variable skill), and the other half is redundant.

REFLEXES (Agility)

>Archery, Athletics, Brawling (our Unarmed), Dance, Dodge & Escape, Driving, Fencing, Handgun, Heavy Weapons, Martial Art (), Melee (our Blunt, although some small Blades fall in this category too), Motorcycle, Operate Heavy Machinery, Pilot (Gyro), Pilot (Fixed Wing), Pilot (Dirigible), Pilot (Vect. Thrust Vehicle), Rifle, Stealth, Submachinegun

The Pilot skills were written just like that in the original table, even though they could have been compressed into a parenthesis variable skill, which have been used before in CP2020 as demonstrated by Expert () and Martial Arts (). Drive and Motorcycle could have been merged into a PVS just like we did, and Operate Heavy Machinery is too fringe. Otherwise, it's good.

=TECHNOLOGY (Agility + Knowledge)==

>Aero Tech, AV Tech, Basic Tech, Cryotank Operation, Cyberdeck Design, CyberTech, Demolitions, Disguise, Electronics, Elect. Security, First Aid, Forgery, Gyro Tech, Paint or Draw, Photo & Film, Pharmaceuticals, Pick Lock, Pick Pocket, Play Instrument (), Weaponsmith

Aero Tech and AV Tech (flying cars) could have been merged into one, although I understand why they didn't do it. Basic Tech is a good idea since it groups everything that isn't purely electronics (most home apparels, car engines, etc), into a single skill. Cryotank Operation is extremely redundant with MedTech. Cyberdeck Design is ridiculously specific. Demolitions could be merged with Physics, Electronics and Elect. Security are also redundant, Gyro Tech could have been merged with Aero Tech and Pharmaceuticals could have been merged with Chemistry or MedTech. This is by far the most autistic skill group in the whole game.

As you can see, there is plenty wrong with this. I actually like finely grained skill systems, but this is way too much. I think it's normal Pondsmith said the list should be reduced, but IIRC he said they should be reduced to half like in Cyberpunk v3.0 (there is a massive versatility gap between Interlock and Fuzion characters), which is way too much. (Cont.)

>>35129 (Cont)

My proposed reduced CP2020 skill list would be:

SPECIAL SKILLS

>Authority becomes Command

>Charismatic Leadership becomes Command too

>Credibility becomes Persuasion or Social

>Interface becomes Sysop

>MedTech merges with Cryotank Operation and Diagnose Illness

>Streetdeal is just Streetwise on steroids

>Otherwise no changes

ATTR

>Style

BODY

>Stamina

>Brawn

>Swimming

COOL

>Interrogation

>Intimidation

>Resist Torture/Drugs/Hypnosis

>Streetwise

EMPATHY

>Human Perception

>Social

>Command

>Negotiation

>Perform

INTELLIGENCE

>Mathematics (merges Accounting, Gamble and Stock Market)

>Awareness

>Biology (Used for genetic engineering. Could be merged with Zoology and Botany, or you could throw those in expert)

>Chemistry (merges Pharmacy)

>Composition (writing and music)

>General Knowledge

>Hide/Evade

>Shadow/Track

>Research (optionally, rename as Detective and merge it with Shadow/Track too)

>Programming could be merged with Sysop too, although it isn't really the same

>Expert ()

>Expert (Teaching)

>Expert (Geology)

>Expert (Anthropology (merges History))

>Expert (Physics)

>Expert (Wilderness Survival)

REFLEXES

>Athletics/Acrobatics

>Unarmed/Martial Arts ()

>Dance

>Dodge

>Driving () (merged with Motorcycle)

>Blade

>Pistol

>Blunt

>Pilot ()

>Rifle

>Stealth

>SMG

>Speciality (Archery). Experimental weapons would also be a speciality

>Speciality (Heavy Weapons)

TECHNOLOGY

>Aero Tech (merges AV Tech and Gyro Tech)

>Basic Tech

>If you want to compress more, make Mechanics () and throw Basic Tech and Aero Tech there.

>CyberTech

>Disguise

>Electronics

>First Aid

>Forgery

>Plastic Arts (merges Paint & Draw and Photo & Film)

>Lockpicking

>Pickpocketing

>Instrument ()

Old skill count: ~90;

New skill count: 55;

Your SLACKER proposed skill count: 43

>>35037 SLACKER proposed skill count: 48

The compression rules I used were: does knowing about this skill automatically make you know about this other one, or does knowing about this skill usually imply you know about the other one in 99% of the cases? If so, merge. Is this skill not terribly specific (ie. Mathematics, Biology) used a lot in a normal game? If it isn't, put into a PVS.

Now, you could reduce these more aggressively, like dividing most TECH skills between our Mental and Technical Aptitudes with Develop and Build/Repair, depending on whether you want to design a new device or just repair one, or you could remove Develop () altogether and just factor the Mental aptitude instead of the Technical aptitude whenever you are designing a device. However, I personally think that we should keep all common skills into the "overworld", or as specific skills of their own, then throw all other fringe skills into Knowledge/Literacy skills or merge them with less specific skills. Anthropology, Teaching and such could be thrown into those, considering they are almost never used and there is no reason to keep them around in the char sheet unless you want to go really specific with your roleplaying.

If we REALLY want to compress around 15 (actually slightly more since Cy2020 has some other skills we still don't, like Forgery, Shadow/Track, etc) important skills into PVS, we should list specifically what could they become in the corebook to avoid rules lawyering during chargen and to give the players and the GM some ideas about what could they fill those blanks with.

>>35050

I think I prefer the "reroll until your total sum is in the median" method. The "drop lowest dice" would make everyone above average in pretty much everything, which I am unsure if it would be good.

>>35130

>Shadow/Track

Tracking is under Mental, iirc. Insight covers Human Perception with a name change so it doesn't look like I cribbed from CP2020's list verbatim.

Thankfully, the Aptitudes help clear up what skill would go where when adding skills (if it's vague, talk about it with eachother).

>>35131

Using my original table still gives a lower modifier than the other anon's, even with the drop lowest. Allowing a certain number of dice to be rerolled would be my choice, though. Something like 3 dice overall.

>>35128

Technical was AGL (ma) KEE (mi).

>>35134

Better to keep two MA in 2-stat Aptitudes or else Technical would be at disadvantage with other skills if they all use the same TN table.

If Mental's max modifier using >>34889 is +7 (MA + MI + MI), Technical's max modifier would be +5 since it only has one MA and one MI. Even with two MA, the max Aptitude modifier would be +6, which is still under MA + MI + MI unless we make MA always be double of MI in the table.

That or add Resolve to the Technical mix since you need some balls of steel to disable a security system.

>>35133

>Thankfully, the Aptitudes help clear up what skill would go where when adding skills (if it's vague, talk about it with eachother).

Should we add a Resilence MA skill table? Some things like Intimidation or will skills (like Resist torture/drugs, resist mind control, etc) would fit there best.

>>35128

I meant like what if you are already captured and are being interrogated. Instead of answering in any way you can mentally distance yourself so that if torture plays in, you're not 'there' per se.

>>35172

Oh yes, that's Resist Torture/Drug. It's a must, although we haven't included it yet.

>>35141

Yeah, you realise Mental was KEE (ma) RES (mi), right? Combat, Physical, and Social had 3 components with them. They both have a +5 max, while the others can go up to +7.

>>35182

Sorry, I was half asleep half drunk while writing that and factored in Sharpness for some reason. Still, it doesn't feel right that some skills can go up to 7 while others can just go up to 5. What's the reason to do that? The only way I can think it could be justified is if you stated that they are mostly skill-based Aptitudes and therefore get a higher skill cap (Mental skills can be raised up to 14 during chargen) to make up for the lack of two whole points that could be critical while rolling, specially if we are using the same TN table for all skills (which we should do, because otherwise we would be adding some totally unnecessary complexity to the game).

Non-combat characters are already fairly rare in these games. There is no reason to make their rolls even more difficult than the rest.

>>35197

There is no reason. It felt right to me. You're welcome to add a couple of minor components to Mental and Technical if it bothers you enough. I can't think of anything to add as a minor for Mental, though, except KEE again (but that's just inelegant as fuck). You could always remove a minor from the other three Aptitudes. Either way, I'm trying to balance around an Aptitude of +0 when doing this.

>>35201

The easiest way out would be factoring in two MA in 2-stat Aptitudes instead of 1 MA + 2 MI. That way, you reduce the gap by one, although it's still not completely balanced. To further balance it, you can make the maximum MA mod be twice as much as the maximum MI mod (ex. 12 STAT = +4 MA, +2 MI). 2 MA will be the same as 1 MA + 2 MI this way, and the total modifier only increases by 1 in a best case scenario.

>Either way, I'm trying to balance around an Aptitude of +0 when doing this.

I would balance at +2 or +3 unless you want to make the players roll in order. It is assumed players will try to distribute their best rolls in their specialization, so although they won't be able to get many 12, they will do their best to get a small modifier.

>>35202

http://pastebin.com/7W1fZnnh Here's some houserules just for you guys for 2020. So great yes?

>>35554

Fuck didn't mean to quote there.

>>35554

>A Salt rifle

Don't die on me.