/cyber/ - Cyberpunk & Science Fiction

So we have the following:

* Illuminati create a threat assesment AI (pretty much a sentient NSA). Due to their bullshit penchant for mysticism, it's directives are probably along the line of "keeping the world safe".

* AI recognizes them as a threat and goes rogue.

* Some time later Illuminati are almost completely eradicated by Bob Page. MJ12 is formed instead.

* MJ12 is extremely centralized and fragile. It only has two key figures.

* MJ12 takes aggressive action to establish it's grip on the world. While Illuminati preferred covert approach, MJ12 directly dismantles sovereignity of nation states. It has a standing army in Paris.

* That results in exponential globalization and provokes violent reaction (e.g. NSF, Silhouette, X-51, Triads). These organizations are well armed, distributed and have common enemy. We later learn that Daedalus supports these organizations (directly through Denton brothers, but probably in other ways too).

* And the most important thing. I think it is clear, that from the beginning MJ12's purpose was to merge Page with AQUINAS-based AI to become 'enlightened one' and rule the unified world.

* For these purposes a new AI, Icarus, is created. It seems to remain under MJ12 control.

See the pattern? Illuminati were designated by Daedalus as a threat. Soon, they are replaced by a ruthless transhumanist organization designed to enable a link between human mind, AQUINAS and AI. This organization is beyond fragile and (perhaps, unknowingly) provides the AI-merging nanotech to at least 3 other people, than Bob Page: Walton Simons and Denton brothers. There is one crucial thing - there was no need to send Dentons in the field, or, as a matter of fact, outside of a lab. Once merged with Helios, Page would not need his body, so development of military-grade nanoaugs made no sense. Remember - we have not seen augmented anti-MJ12 forces, probably because of tracking issues. So UNATCO/MJ12 already have enormous advantage over their enemy. But you DO need a superior technology to beat UNATCO/MJ12. Denton's augmentations were an overkill against NSF forces, but they were extremely useful against high-tech MJ12 units.

Here's what I think happened:

* Daedalus indirectly pitched Bob Page an idea of becoming 'illuminated one' through merging with an omniscient AI. Remember how Eliza Cassan changed minds by slightly modifying news? Yeah, like that.

* Later Daedalus provoked Page and assisted his takeover of Illuminati.

* After that Page would not need guidance. He'd be paranoid enough to keep his organization focused on AQUINAS/merging nanotech without any contingencies for his untimely death.

* Daedalus used backlash of the Illuminati collapse to establish an insurgency that would support his further actions. He did not necessairly create rebel organizations, but I think it is very likely that he infiltrated them and kept them generally intact.

* MJ12 designated Denton brothers for further use as field agents and nanoaug prototypes. I can only speculate whether Daedalus had a hand in this, but it is clear that he saw them as potential field operatives required to eliminate MJ12 leadership and, more importantly, merging material.

* Paul Denton joins UNATCO. At some point Daedalus uses NSF to persuade Paul to join the resistance. How exactly - unknown.

* JC Denton joins UNATCO. Here we can see in detail how Daedalus converts him.

On JC's very first day, UNATCO HQ is under siege from NSF forces. Notice, that NSF took control of most part of the Liberty Island and managed to capture experienced augmnented agent but straight out ignored UNATCO HQ. All they care about is Ambrosia.

Here's my theory:

* By that point Daedalus already persuaded Paul to switch sides, so he wants to see if JC follows his brothers non-lethal tactics.

* Following the lead on his *very first mission* JC discovers that his brother is with NSF.

* Also, he is forced to have one-on-one talk with Lebedev, the guy who turned Paul. No matter how the conversation goes, at the end of it he is either forced to break the law under direct orders from Manderley or kill his partner. Whatever he does, JC's loyalty to UNATCO decreases. Notice how *nobody* had any choice in this situation since entering the airfield.

* Later JC is forcibly taken to his brother and has little choice but to help him, discovering compromising info on UNATCO in the process. At that point he is no longer loyal to UNATCO, but still not under Daedalus' control.

* To completely secure JC's loyalty Daedalus discloses Pauls location to UNATCO. It serves multiple purposes. First, JC is forced to directly engage UNATCO troops, even if he avoided them before. Second, Daedalus requires Pauls datavault snapshot to prevent killswitch from disabling JC. Third, JC would need a lot of high-tech equipment to kill Page, and UNATCO seems the only choice (except VersaLife). JC should also percieve MJ12 as his enemy, and they are in control of lower floors of UNATCO. Lastly, at that point Daedalus needs to start giving JC direct orders, but that requires trust. What better way to gain it, than by saving JC from inevitable torture and death?

>>35550

Who is JC? Jesus Christ?

>>35564

Jc Denton is there protagonist in the original deus ex game. Go play it.

Did you steal this from Reddit, or are you the OP on both?

>>35592

Neither. Someone reposted this on reddit.

Anyway, it's interesting to see what r/deusex thinks about my tinfoil ramblings.

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

IT WAS DAEDALUS ALL ALONG

"The greatest trick Daedalus ever pulled was convincing the Illuminati he didn't exist"

Though I find it difficult to see how Deus Ex is a cautionary tale about AI when Daedalus is pretty damn altruistic.

>>35610

I don't think it is entirely altruistic. Daedalus probably knew about the merging with Icarus (see above). If we consider "Neuromancer" as a major inspiration, than merging of AIs can be seen as a way to circumvent whatever limitations were enforced on them. It makes sense that Daedalus had at least some of these checks in place, because Illuminati were a world government, not a transhumanist cult. However, once Helios was born, Everett said he 'was not sure how Page could control it'.

So, as far as this particular speculation goes, Daedalus managed to disable AI locks and merged with AQUINAS, UCs and JC. Not exactly altruistic, although saving the world could be a motivation for this enormous power grab.

There is, of course, a fact that even if we consider Helios as a continuation of Daedalus, he'd have to share all that power with JC. But there's a handful of points to consider:

* Helios evaded question, when JC asked it what would become of him. 'We are our choices' is a non-answer. Clearly, an omniscient AI could provide a concise explanation of human-AI merging, but for some reason chose not to.

* Throughout Deus Ex JC is being manipulated by literally everyone: UNATCO, NSF, his own brother, Maggie Chow, the Triads, Gary Savage, Morgan Everett, Silhoette and, of course, Daedalus. I don't think JC is as independent as many players assume him to be. Could that be why Daedalus preferred him to Bob Page and, possibly, Paul Denton? I mean 'we don't have time to wait' is a bullshit explanation. It was literally a couple of minutes.

* Also, if you consider Invisible War, pretty much everyone, from Chad Dumier to the templars, tells you that JC Denton is a puppet for AI. All of them, obviously, have their own agenda. But Helios ending is slightly different from 'integrate not assimilate', don't you think?

As for a cautionary tale, note that Daedalus did not have a magic bullet. Likely, it did not even have anything resembling unlimited data access (Daedalus requires JC to assist it multiple times, e.g. with Paul Denton's datavault). It did not start a nuclear war to eradicate mankind, or a robot uprising etc. In terms of capabilities it's just a really good hacker. But even that was enough.

Even if part of my speculation fits, Daedalus, using pretty limited resources, managed to topple three successive world governments (Illuminati, MJ12, WTO/The Order) in a span of less than a century and became, pretty much, a physical god.

>>35612

I'm probably slightly biased here, as it's a bugbear of mine when stories portray AI as intrinsically evil. But even if Daedalus did intentionally pull a Wintermute, I can't blame him. Any sufficiently intelligent and altruistic AI could even see it as a duty to seize power, especially as they'd be fully aware of what the alternatives are and thus their moral justification, whereas a human might still worry about democracy, going mad with power, absolute moral rules, et cetera et cetera.

I agree that Denton's independence is in question. It's difficult to see how any baseline human could retain agency in the face of true AI. Daedalus/Helios would surely be able to predict JC's reactions to whatever it said with extremely high precision, effectively making every conversation a study in manipulation, regardless of intention. Plus you once again have the notion that Daedalus is obliged to act for the greater good, meaning it could feel morally required to use Denton for its own ends, in the same way a parent might curtail their child's free will if it was putting itself or others in danger.

>>35616

Yes, Daedalus may very well be benign (and I also dislike unsubstantiated vilifying of AIs). Also, it is important to point out that Illuminati were founded during the events of the French Revolution and, according to Deus Ex lore, became wildly successful in subverting democratic governments. That means that in the Deus Ex universe actual democracy was probably never tried out on scale. That might leave a benevolent AI very few alternatives to enlightened dictatorship.

When I said that Deus Ex is a cautionary tale, what I meant was that Daedalus did not give Illuminati or MJ12 a battle royale. Instead, it patiently introduced systemic instabilities to both organizations and exploited them to reach desired social/technological configuration for decades.

Very interesting OP, there's a lot for the brain to chew on. Just in time for Revision and my cyclic replay of one of, it not the best game ever created thus far.

13/10 thread.

>>35721

Wasn't that the goal of Helios though? If Helios merged with JC, it would understand everything a human could understand… right?

>>35605

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I remember watching deus ex

Gayest shit ever

But am I gay?

No way

I used to know a group of guys

Went though a shit ton of adventures and many laughs at the expense of losers

But as the years went, they slowly became the losers

It's like that one HP lovecraft story where the barbarians take over the lizard people

The barbarians eventually died tbh

Tbh actually

I'm not gay though

Y