/d20/ - Traditional Games

Honestly, I think the best approach is to let your players set the tone for the campaign. Don't go into it trying to make it mature. That's practically railroading. Just let them play, and if they start taking it more mature, see where it leads.

As for handling those bits, everything that would be acceptable in a Hollywood movie should be acceptable in a campaign.

>>532

If the guy wants to bring his kid to his game I don't see why there's a problem there. It's his game. Then again, if you guys want to start your own because you don't want his kid there, that's fine too.

>>542

His kid is 18 months old, that's the problem, he has railroaded, berated and talked to each of us about "toning down". So fuck him.

>>547

Yeah, sounds like you need a new GM, but you can't blame him for trying to protect an 18-month-old.

>>551

No I cant, bit the games are running out of my house, my rec room. He never brings his kid. All over the situation is weird, hence why I got asked. He wasn't too bad a GM per se, planned and is an alright guy but his PG stance about a kid who isn't going to play for another 9 years is pretty silly. Hence why he got the chop.

>>554

He's probably thinking of introducing the little anklebiter to the world of tabletop games. Gotta start 'em early.

>>556

True, just not Pathfinder, the demon smiting orc paladin lesbian whose married to a tramsexual might turn the kid Tumblr.

>>564

Same.

But I do like the adventure paths, but getting a little fucking sick of the SJW shit. Figure if I ever GM them I'd just leave out the degeneracy. Dont care if characters are into same sex, bi or otherwise just do it George R R Martin and not Paizo.

>>516

Agreed on the lack of middle ground in that domain. Blame the puritans, I guess?

>>566

If I ever narrate anything from Paizo I'm making sure all the materials used were acquired through piracy.

>>569

There's one thing I don't get : how do transgenders change their sex in Pathfinder ?

Aren't sex-switching items/rituals retardedly expensive for the layman, like in 3.5 ?

That's the big thing that often irks me with these SJW types : the fact their beliefs have no fucking basis in reality. Shit, I read through Love & Sex in the Ninth World to have a giggle (I posted a "critique" of it on /tg/ once), but what blew me away was the fact that there were transgender people in a world where magic is really unreliable, as it really comes form old artifacts made by previous civilizations. And gays in a worlds where most of the population is agrarian, and probably needs each woman to create a good number of children to just maintain the population, considering how high infant mortality must be in that world.

>>583

They ask someone with maxed Heal skill? Outside of this, I don't know. Making sense is not required in Fantasy, one could say

>>583

Oh, and my grain of salt on making "respectable" mature campaigns : I don't believe in letting players "define the tone" : I usually choose what kind of campaign I want to run, and then see who's interested. I then make sure they understand what they're going into from the start, whether it be lovecraftian horror or cutesy catgirls antics. This allows me to leave them a good deal of freedom in creating their characters, and insures everyone is here for the same thing (it's shit when two players try to push widely different notes)

Go nobledark, lowfantasy setting (40k is really good for this too, if you put the PCs in the shoes of "heroes"). Those kinds of settings can be used to put the players at real risk, against threats that only THEM can stop, which serves to put the weight of the world on their shoulders : the problem isn't that the players are weak, the problem is that if they EVER drop the ball, someone will pay the price. Probably someone they liked. And it'll all be their fault.

Moreover, descriptions should be detailed, to put them face to face with the grisly nature of their struggle, ie don't EVER say "you hit/get hit", and don't do cartoonish shit : describe the flesh tearing, the warmth of blood on their face, the sickening sound of a bone snapping. Injuries should not go away easily, instead requiring time to heal. And they should be roleplayed in the meantime. HPs should be way more than just a number.

What exactly do you mean by maturity?

Do you want a more grounded and realistic setting, be it one going for realism or hard sci-fi?

Do you want a more serious approach to topics such as genocide, sex slavery, human values and ethics, and whatever else?

>>532

But anon, they're gay and trans. that means they are good characters :^)

>>591

Little bit of both, as again I feel publishers and a lot of gamers dont do it well. Hence the highlighting of the Paizo SJW stuff. Now I get that settings with dragons, wizards and so forth are not realistic, but upping the anti in terms of tone and content without stuffing it up seems to be a hard thing to do.

I think the closest I see a game address politics and mature themes is L5R, even then not perfect.

I have a DM who sees any sexual conduct whatsoever as magical realm.

Playing a dickass thief, I got booted from the game for attempting to seduce palace staff so I could get as some sweet motherfucking lucre. I then noticed that the group's party was all male, all martials (stated reason: Transformation and access to those spells? Magical realm and fetishes) and no less armor than full body (Can't have lionclothed barbarians - magical realm).

So excuse me if I've come to find the term worthless and distasteful.

I also have a seperate, but equally severe hatred for 'mature', but that's for a different topic.

>>719

Nah here's the place to discuss it. And I use the words as they're generally the ones that come up. As for the GM, what a dick, that is a severe autistic aversion to something.

>>516

>Ramsay Bolton

On the books, he's just a guy good at torturing, nothing else. On the show, he's literal fanfiction.

>how do we do more mature campaigns

Simple. Have a bit of rape thrown here and there, murder, quite a bit of betrayal, but not overly exaggerated. Make it more believable.

And most of all: Don't make either side have the advantage.

Of course, the characters should never be full good or bad, but make the "good" side and the "bad" side be evenly matched. Make them understand that with a single bad decision, they can fuck up everything. Same goes for the "bad" side.

>>753

My aversion to 'mature' comes from a group that didn't want anyone happy.

Now, I don't mean they didn't want others to have fun. No, you could not run a happy character. Nor could good or happy things happen to them. These things were quickly dismissed as 'fairytale bullshit happily ever after go play fuckin' candylag you faggot'.

Some things he shot down:

>My bard being happily married to a bar wench he seduced earlier in the campaign and who had his kid, both to protect them and to settle down.

>My Fighter building a mercenary slave-freeing group that operated out of a large ship flotilla off the coast of a major continent.

>>Not initially shot down, but literally destroyed by a god-mode series of lethal attacks by slavers before they even freed a single slave or got word out about their activities.

>My cleric being able to found their own temple in a small town that was deeply in need of it, the villagers there being 'enlightened against dogma and gods'

>>I was worshipping a fucking goddess of love and tolerance

>My friend's druid being able to reincarnate at all after a long, long quest chain about recovering the miracle from a series of trials from the nature god

>>Reasoning: haha, fuck you, gods is dicks, let me get my fedora

And so on. And besides that, each time I've heard 'mature' I ended up playing 'Everyone is murdered. And raped. Sometimes in that order, often not. Also, everything you love gets burned to the ground, then raped.'

>>761

Yeah, hence why I posted the thread, having never Gm'd I always got the shits when a GM just makes something fail the player has invested time and money on. One game we all invested into a location by an important river crossing, set up a smithy, warehouse, inn and keep and started charging people to use ferry. Way of generating income whilst having a base. GM has a massive army of orcs with a dragon turn up out of fucking no-where, burn it down, destry everything, whilst we were in a dungeon. Like a massive army of orcs marched literally halfway into a country, without being detected, burning down, or attacking anything else to attack a small post at a river crossing that had only just been built before turning around and going back to where they came from again without touching, burning or pillaging on the way out. The fat greasy fuck sat there, and said "Sometimes the gods are cruel and you wasted your gold" fuck him.

As for everyone raped and murderedd, or murdered and raped again, I dont feel running a campaign where these things happen should automatically result in the players and their loved ones getting fucked over. I mean look at Renaissance Italy, you had thriving art in Florence, Power plays and politics in Rome, A murdering torturing psychopath with Cesere Borgia, the Borgia's in general, Galileo, the explosion of art, the invasion of a French King, the bonfire of the vanities (was a Renaissance fan way before AC2) and people still carried on with their lives and were able to gain, earn and lose.

>>761

It's too bad that so many people seem to think that mature means "no fun", "jokes are for babbies" and "good things never happen". Mature is the fine line between grim reality and the funny shit that happens in between.

>>583

I actually did some neat world building for this in my Numenera campaign. In the Steadfast, there's a fairly widespread type of Numenera provided by the Order of Truth that basically allows people of any number or gender to have kids. So, in the Steadfast, pretty much everyone is a test tube baby of a couple of any gender combination. Hell, you could have four parents if that was the relationship. The kid will inherit genes from all four of the people that birthed them. It also means women very rarely get pregnant, which provides a good lore justification for why a society that is culturally medieval is remarkably egalitarian when it comes to women.

However, the farther you get from the Steadfast, and as the Order of Truth's influence in that lessens the further east you go, the birthing pods become far less widespread. Thus, settlements in the Beyond are far more sexist and homophobic, as kids have to be produced the old fashion way. This is only heightened by the xenophobia due to the little pockets and villages being very isolated and sparsely populated.

>>532

I find that adding things like characters being trans or gay or whatever is to character depth as sprinkles are on a cake. They are unnecessary, garish, and rarely ever make it better. They are even more frivolous than the character's appearance (the icing), and add nothing to the most important part of the character who they are (the delicious, actual cake bread).

>>915

So basically since it matters so little, every character should be straight and white

>>920

Yeah, why not?

That's the case for a lot of good stories I can think of off the top of my head.

>>921

So basically since it matters so little, every character should be gay and black

>>915

Agree, but again don't have an issue of done right. For instance the trans as a geisha, been done before in history but the character/NPC has to have reasons for being it, not just for shoehorning in a political agenda. If the reasons for the character being there makes sense it's not a problem.

Example of a good trans characters (ignore the fact that they are both villains) would be norman Bates or Buffulo Billl, both had reasons for being what they were and the cross dressing was just part of a more complex and nuanced character. Hell even the Streisand movie Yentl had a reason for her to dress up as a boy. If it fits the setting, character and there are reasons and justifications for it, then I'm fine with it.

The Paizo gay orc however, it was completely unneccessary and interfered with the plot, tone and setting at large. There was no stated reason relevant to the setting for the gay or trans characters, they were placed in their as a way of Paizo saying we have gay and trans characters. I don't need to know an NPCs sexuality unless it is story and plot relevant, each time Paizo has done so it has not been.

>>915

In a truly culturally medieval society, a character would never reveal they're trans or gay because they don't want to get run out of town AT BEST.

If we don't give a shit about historical realism and have a medieval society where everyone is equal, then the only time a character is going to bring up their sexuality is if a female character brings up their wife. Being trans would be brought up even less cause nobody would give a shit what gender you used to be.

Paizo does neither, and tries to have their cake and eat it to, with characters that act like "Us LGBT gotta stick together~!" without having a society that shits upon them to justify this.

>>927

that's really the thing isn't it. If the character's sexuality doesn't pertain to the story, then it just doesn't come up. So if a Paizo background character is whatever sexuality, there's no reason for it to happen, unless it is a source of conflict in the story. I haven't read anything from Paizo, myself, but I bet nothing in their background intersects with specific character's preferences, and I bet there are next to no characters who are specified to be straight, cisgendered men who are happily married to a gorgeous blonde housewife, that loves to make him sandwiches.

>>578

Google Spathiwa or IamsDW and you'll get all ya need

>>934

If they statted out a patriarchy then player characters would want to join it, e.g. Jovian Republic.

Kinda funny that all of Paizo's special snowflakes are basically suffering from a persecution complex.

For me I hate the idea of the different races sexuality being the same, and not respecting the culture and demeanour of the race when arbitrarily injecting Social Justice into a setting. My guidelines (haven't had to use them) for the sexuality and attitudes toward I scratched from a drunk conversation. The guidelines are:

-Dwarves: Put simply don't do gay. Being a practical race and living in harsh places dwarvess tend to view love, romance and concepts like that as weak. Simply put a relationship that doesn't produce children and strengthen the clan is a waste of time. Similarly marriages are arranged, as it's a way of cementing alliances, trade and strengthening the clan. It also helps minimalize inbreeding and allow strong bloodlines to thrive. It is not for love.

-Elves: on the other hand will engage in any number of relationships with either gender and depends on the elf as to who they love and engage with. Marriage is on a whim and can last days or centuries again depending on the elves involved. The relationships can be casual or deeply intense, fleeting or lasting, constant or intimate, and due to it being part of the elf's self-expression no judgement or stigma comes from elf society as a result. Put simply, it's viewed as normal and a matter of zero concern.

-Humans: are pretty much like us in regards to sexuality, marriage and relationships. The attitudes depend on the community, with religion and politics shaping the attitudes.

>>1051

-Half-Elves: tend to reflect the community in which they were raised.

-Half-Orcs: tend view life as short, miserable and feel no long term attachment to anything or anyone. They take their pleasures where they can as enjoyment is something they often go without and as such have little qualms in expressing it. Unless it ends up with them at the end of a lynch mob’s rope, half-orcs don’t care what people think. Can be straight, gay or anywhere in between.

-Halflings are all about community. Whilst "confirmed bachelors" and "spinsters" exist (think Bilbo Baggins, totally in the closet) the adage don't ask don't tell applies. View the way the British tend to view Oscar Wilde and Noel Coward, everyone knew but no-one acknowledged. Tend to view all halflings as turn of the 20th century country brits, so use that as my basis.

-Gnomes relationships for the most part are heterosexual, and the relationships are based around the interests and obsessions (non-sexual, view Gnomes as a society of high functioning autists) of the couple. Whilst gay relationships exist other gnomes tend to be too stuck in their latest tome, gadget, experiment or garden to really take notice enough to care.

I've also done a hell of a lot of notes on attitudes toward other races, political tendencies, the way each group fights a war, cuisine, how they conduct religion, art, building and architecture etc. I get it's a little autistic on my behalf but by fleshing out the race and their views it makes it easier for me to better fit them in my game world, and bring about a certain amount of cultural ignorance, intolerance and conflict as a result.

>>516

>above the generic non-commital saturday morning cartoon

>Ramsay Bolton from Game of Thrones

That motherfucker is the definition of Mary Sue over the top I always win villainy. I mean seriously. "I only need twenty. Good. Men," to beat a fucking army.

>>532

>A good example of what to avoid is what I call "Paizoing" which is slipping in gay, trans and progressive characters into every fucking thing

Here's how you avoid that: don't even set the orientation/gender/whatever of the characters unless it matters to the story (like if there are only male orcs or a culture has strong gender roles). I mostly leave characters gender neutral until my players specifically ask me, and then I roll a die (odd=male, even=female).

>>554

>>547

The kid's 18 months old... That guy is retarded if he thinks it'll be anything less than several years before he's ready for "mature" tabletop. But what's stopping you guys from creating a mature backstory for the characters and setting, and then just toning it down when the kid joins in?

>How do I into mature game?

Don't shy away from showing the toll adventuring/war/etc. takes on the characters. This includes NPCs. Huge battle or aftermath thereof? Throw the PCs an encounter with a wounded and dying soldier. City under control of a foreign nation? Show the players the foreign agents exercising their power over the town. Hobgoblins threaten a town? Actually let the players see them killing people, destroying crops, etc. and have the NPCs react realistically to the devastation. Arrogant dragon demanding tribute? Let the players meet an NPC with half their body covered in burns from when it threw a tantrum.

And the biggest one: in most fantasy settings (i.e. feudal times + magic) people live in close-knit communities; anyone's death will have an impact. Miner got killed by dick-ass thieves trying to sneak into the mine? He had a family he was feeding with that job. Soldiers/guards went off to fight a threat? They were all someone's kid and for every one that fell there will be about 2 elders (parents/mentors) and several friends grieving. If you want your game to feel mature, give the players the opportunity to appreciate the human cost of the world their characters inhabit. Never forget that everything is connected and the story's events have an effect on the world. Especially if they're driven by the players.

>>1053

Bonus Round

Assuming you are showing the damage being done to characters as mentioned above, you may want to include this sort of thing, but be warned, this is similar to magical realm territory. Some people may respond badly and if you don't handle it in a way they like, you run the risk of being called preachy.

Everyone copes with stress differently. Stressful situations freeze many, galvanize a few, and break some. And when stressful and traumatic situations are the norm, such as in war or in settings where bad things happen to characters all the time, most people have a lot of psychological baggage. This usually manifests in dysfunctional or anti-social behavior, and tends to create a self-perpetuating trauma. Since you mentioned the kid, I'll frame this for that context. Consider how children's show have "very special episodes" about drugs and child abuse. Most of the time, you can create a compelling story without having to directly show the cause. You just have to show the result the right way.

You can create heroes and villains who hit much closer to home if you have your characters actually behave like humans tend to under extreme circumstances. People who feel helpless and screwed by circumstances may seek escapism through drugs, sex, or other thrill-seeking (especially adventuring). People who feel they're at or near the bottom of the social hierarchy will often take out their frustration on even more vulnerable people and animals. People traumatized by awful experiences at the hands of others often develop trust issues and have a difficult time connecting and interacting socially. People who feel oppressed by the system often lash out desperately and violently. The list goes on and on. Psychology is extremely complicated; psychological disorders and milder... "disruptions" let's say are endemic to the real world. The more difficult the times, the more pronounced this is, and the middle ages of fantasy are no exception.

This is pretty much the bottom of it all. Art and storytelling are fundamentally about exploring the human condition - most of all the parts we don't clearly understand. Even a simple power fantasy where the rule of the day is roll playing is a way for people to explore a part of the human experience that maybe they lack in their real lives. How much people want to explore themselves (and others) is a matter of personal preference. "Maturity" in art has unfortunately become virtually synonymous with "taboo," particularly with regard to sex and violence, but that's not really what it means. It's more descriptive of how deep into the psyche the story explores, and how well it handles what's there, so the intended audience can relate.

>>1054

>"Maturity" in art has unfortunately become virtually synonymous with "taboo," particularly with regard to sex and violence, but that's not really what it means. It's more descriptive of how deep into the psyche the story explores, and how well it handles what's there, so the intended audience can relate

This is awesome and hits the nail on the head in terms of what I feel should be addressed with "mature" content. It's the depaths, impacts and wider implications of the subjects introduced and not shallow titillation. Quite often the themes such as the impact of war, famine, plague, greed, religion, relationships cannot be addressed with a PG style of play but players and GMs wanting have these elements present in a game often handle it in a hamfisted and ultimately shitty way.

>>1055

To bring it back to what's in the OP, Fargo isn't mature because Lorne takes a shit in front of a guy while maintaining eye contact to assert his dominance. It's mature because you see the cop who's a single dad struggle with how much to risk his life (and his kid's future). It's mature because you see the deaf guy in the hospital dealing with the death of his associate, on whom he depended to an extent.

>>1056

I'm confused. Are you talking about the TV show?

The movie is pretty mature, and good.

>>1057

Yes. OP was also talking about the show. Both the show and the film are good. Both are mature. When I say "Fargo isn't mature because" I don't mean "Fargo isn't mature...here's why". I mean "This isn't a reason why Fargo is mature."

>>904

That's actually pretty cool. I like to think of some matriarchal society based around "Holy fuck woman are goddamn important, if we don't have enough we die. Men kind of are easy to replace though." being disgusted by the idea of the society and kind of fear it cause it makes it so woman would lose power in her society.

Someone really should make a Game of Thrones for FATAL. The system would work really well with that setting.

>>925

I'll correct the guy you were talking to: The gender, ethnicity, sexual preferences, quirks, blood type, zodiac sign etc. of a character should remain undefined if it is not important to the story.

>>1265

As the anon you replied to, for everything except ethnicity I can agree. Ethnicity is as important to the story as what a character is wearing. That is, it's meaningless to the plot most of the time, but it can't just be ignored.

>>934

In a TRULY culturally medieval society, a character would never reveal they're trans or gay because they don't know what "trans" means, and because no one cares, and they probably don't either. It only really matters if someone has some reason to pay attention to you, e.g. how homosexuality is treated in Game of Thrones. Everyone knows, nobody cares because they've got far more important things to worry about, up until the character's homosexuality can be used against them. Then their enemies care. The same would go for crossdressing, probably the only medieval manifestation of transsexuality.