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File: 1446752429951-0.jpg (1.97 MB, 4128x2322, 16:9, tmp_12670-20151105_113751-….jpg)

File: 1446752429969-1.jpg (1.55 MB, 4128x2322, 16:9, tmp_12670-20151105_1137394….jpg)

877bb7 No.3134

CAN'T WAKE UP

49b3e3 No.3137

Get lost, gamergater


962c6f No.3140

enforced diversity quotas for teams in 3… 2…


6cbbde No.3141

>>3140

>implying the school is diverse enough for that to be possible.


962c6f No.3142

>>3141

>implying that will stop them from trying


877bb7 No.3143

>>3137

>caring about GG in any way

Really?

>>3140

Freshman and sophomore projects would break because buffalos don't work on them


962c6f No.3144

>>3143

wtf is a buffalo in this context?


877bb7 No.3147


b1b25f No.3156

How diverse was it?

Was it filled with only white people talking about their headmates, how they're genderqueer because biology is opressive, and how they have the soul of an attack helicopter?


bea740 No.3165

File: 1446801920729.gif (1.5 MB, 320x180, 16:9, 1446801773799.gif)

Was anyone triggered at all the cis white males at the school?


b5198d No.3177

>>3165

Yes we talked about the gender gap in the school and our (teacher?) kept trying to bring up reasons why it "isn't representative of the amount of women who WANT to be programmers."

>>3156

noone in the class seemed particularly tumblr-ey outside of the teacher but one dude did bring up the 40% of women are gamers (which is true… because of facebook/ios games).

side note: what do you call the person in faculty that runs the COL101 class? Professor certainly doesn't seem appropriate and even teacher is pushing it.


4be5b9 No.3178

>>3177

>the person in faculty that runs the COL101

Usually they have something to do with academic advising or the student support center. A lot of them have degrees in communication (qualifications for teaching with that degree come easy from what I've heard). It's usually not too hard to get on a first-name basis with them, otherwise you could just use Mr/Ms/Mrs.


b5198d No.3179

>>3178

I meant more for here because I don't want to say their name


e042e6 No.3180

Is GG still a thing at this school? I thought that went away when Anita and Zoe Quinn stopped being relevant.


4bfe8b No.3182

>>3180

Nah, but it's not going away. Some former Sony exec snagged the movie rights to Quinns memoirs. If that movie ever gets made GG will probably never die.


bea740 No.3183

>>3177

>gender gap

I'm curious what did you guys actually talk about considering Digipen accepts 2/3rds of all male AND female applicants. Women tend not to pursue STEM degrees and it's clear in the computer science field. It's not Digipen's fault.


e042e6 No.3185

>>3182

Yeah I heard about that like an hour ago. Apparently Scarlet Johanson is being considered for the lead role and Quinn is all for it. Man, how vain can one person be?


b1b25f No.3186

>>3183

Doesn't stop the bitching

Because (cushy tech) jobs aren't half and half men and women the conclusion is that there are sexist hiring practices regardless of actual ratio of applicants.

So the only way to stop it is to hire more women and minorities regardless of qualifications.

>>3182

>snagged the movie rights to Quinns memoirs

What, was there a bidding war? And memoirs over what? A year of crying that people are mean on the internet?

If it ever gets made it's going to tank harder than the FemBusters movie

>>3185

>Scarlet Johanson is being considered for the lead role

Oh come the fuck on, that's gotta be clickbait.


4bfe8b No.3187

>>3186

It's obviously clickbait, no way Johanson would actually take a film like that. Turns out the director is the same one who is doing the fem ghost busters.

I really hope this movie gets made. Regardless of your opinion of GG, there will be some great memes coming out of this.


b1b25f No.3188

>>3187

>Turns out the director is the same one who is doing the fem ghost busters.

Wow, I didn't even know that when I invoked Fembusters

I'm of the same opinion. I really hope it does get made. It can't POSSIBLY be a success (I could maybe see Fembusters breaking even due to the Ghostbusters name but not this) and we'll get some DANK MEMES out of it


3d5841 No.3190

>>3188

Wow, I can't believe I share a school with people who support a misogynistic hate group. Drop out you fucks, nobody wants you here


4292f8 No.3191

>>3190

Glad to see you're the representative of the entire school's collective opinions on who they "want here" :^)


e042e6 No.3194

>>3191

Well, people like 3190 are getting weeded out in the industry regardless of which side of the the fence they're on. Lots of studios are taking steps to do extensive checks on people with regards to GG simply because of how toxic it makes environments.It's one thing to not like Zoe Quinn (lots of people have a similar view) but to engage in outbursts like that introduces alot of hatred into the workplace and ultimately nerfs performance.

I was curious about GG primarily because since leaving, I've been asked about certain DP applicants trying to find work at various studios, I have costed several people a potential job simply because of GG and new policies set-up to keep that cancer out of the industry. The sheer amount of rejections I have seen led me to believe that GG was pretty prevalent in DP still since people from non-DP backgrounds (like UW) are getting in with almost no problem.


2a984e No.3196

>>3194

Out of curiosity which side of the fence were most of these people on?


3d5841 No.3197

>>3194

Attitudes like that prove that this industry is doing nothing to combat the problem of misogyny in the gaming community.By "weeding out" anyone who has feelings about this issue they are saying its not important enough to address


b1b25f No.3200

>>3197

No, they don't want rabid tumblrinas or soggy knees because both sides cause inter-personnel friction

Fuck your political agendas, they have games to make


d6478f No.3201

Just like in reality, GG is a minority at digipen (thank fucking christ), but they're really good at seeming bigger than they are because they're all loud whiny babies.


2a984e No.3203

>>3201

Though GG "members" are a minority, those who share their views are not. The reason behind it is simple. "SJWs" or whatever you want to call them are bad for business. Games that follow their views on game design don't sell. And they have a nasty tendency to smear developers that don't conform to their views.

My favorite example of this is when one of the artists on doom 4 screen capped Sarkeesians twitter posts complaining about the violence in doom, adding the caption "HAHA, WINNING!". Her followers then tried to email his boss to get him fired.

GG has done this too, but it's mostly been in the form of memes and snide remarks, not actively trying to get game developers fired.


2a984e No.3204

>>3201

Actual GG "members" are a minority, but those who share their views are not. Most people don't openly support it because of its leaderless and anonymous structure, plenty of shit heads have joined their ranks and made it impossible for most people to get behind.


34c6b7 No.3205

>>3201

Because social justice weenies don't appear to be more numerous because of all the whining they do?

Two heads to the same coin, bitch


d6478f No.3206

>>3205

Well there's no GG club now is there? :^)


3a2027 No.3210

>>3206

I'm going to make an ethics in industry media club, would you like to join?


d6478f No.3213

>>3210

Sure, I'll be first in line if it's actually about eithics in industry media. But it isn't, now is it? :^)


3a2027 No.3215

>>3213

Nah, we're just going to sit around and talk about ways to get women/minorities/LGBT out of the game industry.

Basically whatever the media says media ethics campaigns do at the time.


b1b25f No.3216

>>3206

Yeah and there aren't any white student unions

Wonder why that is


b1b25f No.3218

>>3215

We could use our media connections to create the impression that the industry is a boy's club, hostile to all things woman and brown.

OH WAIT


3a2027 No.3219

>>3217

No, what I meant to say was Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn are brave for speaking out.


d6478f No.3220

>>3216

I'll answer your question with a question:

Why don't you go and make one? :^)


b1b25f No.3221

>>3220

Because it's instantly racist to make one regardless of intent or content, of course :^)


d6478f No.3222

>>3221

But GG is the majority of the school, right? They have your back! :^)


b1b25f No.3223

>>3219

>Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn are brave for speaking out.

Brave would be a higher up in the actual AAA industry who put their career on the line to expose the hidden underbelly of soggy knees to the public.

As it is now, we have a media critic (a "lifelong gamer" who is on camera in 2010 saying she doesn't like videogames) and someone who made a slide show game and a game where you stare at… uhhh… was it Nicholas Cage?

Remember, Quinn's rise to fame started because of her boyfriend outing her as a cheating whore (rapist by her own screwed up standards), not a fight against the games industry.

>>3222

Having problems breathing with the words in my mouth. Just because I said social justice weenies are a loud minority just like you said Goobergrape is a loud minority doesn't mean I implied they're the majority.

This might come as a shock but the majority of gamers and people in general DON'T CARE :^)


d6478f No.3224

>>3223

>(a "lifelong gamer" who is on camera in 2010 saying she doesn't like videogames)

I have it on good authority that you shat your diapers when you were a baby. Why should I listen to you, a pants-shitting diaper-wearer? :^)

> Quinn's rise to fame started because of her boyfriend outing her as a cheating whore

But it's about ethics in games journalism!


b1b25f No.3225

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>3224

I love this video, by the way. She'd love to play videogames but thinks they're all violent shooters.

in 2010

>But it's about ethics in games journalism!

Not at that point. It was about some no-name who might have slept her way to get some recognition.

But then people across the internet got silenced

People were wondering why there seemed to be an effort to stifle talking about it everywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

And suddenly 10 websites published GAMERS ARE DEAD articles on the same day talking about how gamers are a bunch of pissbaby shitlords who don't deserve their medium.

Which was probably the worst thing they could have possibly done

Also, from the Wikipedia:

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

>The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context.

You gotta love it.

>I have it on good authority that you shat your diapers when you were a baby. Why should I listen to you, a pants-shitting diaper-wearer? :^)

Ok, I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Doesn't everyone shit their diapers when they were a baby? Isn't that why we wear diapers?

I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS


3a2027 No.3226

>>3225

With the diapers comment, I think they're implying that people change.

You used to shit in diapers as a kid, now you don't.

Sarkeesian used to hate video games, now she *doesn't.

*unconfirmed and probably not true.


b1b25f No.3227

>>3226

Oh, I just took it as a weird insult. I guess that makes sense. It was a bit too scatological for me to look for deeper meaning.


d6478f No.3228

>>3225

>Not at that point. It was about some no-name who might have slept her way to get some recognition.

>Not at that point. It was about some no-name who might

>might

Oh right, that makes it all worth it. That MAYBE someone did something. Never mind those allegations were disproven later! SHOOT FIRST, THINK LATER.

>suddenly 10 websites published GAMERS ARE DEAD

I read in the paper news about Big Bertha recently, and saw an article on the same topic on KOMO4 news on TV! WTF IS THIS COLLUSION #JournalismGate

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy :^)

>>3226

Thank you for actually getting it.

Also

>*unconfirmed and probably not true.

I'm gonna ask a real, honest to goodness, no-strings-attached legitimately-curious question: why do people believe this? You don't become a critic for something you hate. Imagine someone dismissed a film critic because 'oh they just hate films!' That's ludicrous. So why does it hold for games (or, let's be honest, Ms. Sarkeesian specifically.)


b1b25f No.3229

>>3228

The irony of the fallacy fallacy is that it's also a fallacy and hence subject to the fallacy fallacy

"Because X invoked a fallacy to discredit another argument, their argument is fallacious"

Then the argument gets cyclical and there's shouting and emoticons and nobody wins.

>WTF IS THIS COLLUSION

2 < 10

It's not like they were all reporting on an event. It's like 10 news sits all reported on a broad social trend on the same day. Might just raise an eyebrow.

>>3228

>"why do people believe this?"

Because she was critiquing other media until videogames struck a nerve with some stupid nerds. Seriously. She was bitching about the misogyny in the hungry games too. Then she got some money to make a video series she's dragging her feet on and now she's got a soapbox to stand on because some retards think that death threats accomplish anything. Now she's invited to Canadian government speeches and the UN. All for leveraging internet rage.

Let me take a page from you book and answer you question with some questions:

If she only began to like videogames recently, why did she say she's always liked them when WE HAVE VIDEO EVIDENCE IT'S UNTRUE? Before you say it's because people would say she wasn't a real gamer if she did, they still think that only now they also think she's a liar.

If she loves videogames, why does she make arguments like Jack Thompson? (Violent videogames make people violent. Misogynist videogames make people misogynist.) She even goes so far to say that the people who say they're unaffected by media are MORE likely to be affected by it which is bullshit videogames have been laboring under since their inception.

If she loves videogames, why did she bitch about the new Doom (And Fallout 4) being too violent when it's just business as usual for the series?

Why are we hearing these arguments AGAIN almost a DECADE later from someone who claims to LOVE videogames?


84a5a1 No.3230

GamerGate is pretty silly…getting pissy over the "Gamers are dead" thing is a joke, and Zoey Quinn sleeping her way to be considered obscure…who cares when these sites actively take bribes for good reviews?

BUT

Can anyone link ANY evidence supporting the idea that it was anyone in the GamerGate community that doxxed Anita Sarkeesian? Can anyone link a single CREDIBLE threat to her or Zoe Quinn?

No, seriously…is there any actual evidence that it's anybody who even self-identifies as being in the Gamer Gate community that has so much as encouraged this behavior?


d6478f No.3231

>>3229

>If she only began to like videogames recently, why did she say she's always liked them when WE HAVE VIDEO EVIDENCE IT'S UNTRUE?

Let me answer that with yet another question: DOES IT FUCKING MATTER? There's a specific type of food I never had before until recently; now I'm crazy for it. What if I decided to become a food critic for that cuisine specifically? Is my opinion any less valid because I haven't grown up with that food or spent thousands of dollars on it?

>If she loves videogames, why does she make arguments like Jack Thompson? (Violent videogames make people violent. Misogynist videogames make people misogynist.)

Give me a video where she says this and I'll watch it and give you an answer. HARD (read: credible) MODE: can't be a RalphRetard/thunderf00t/Breitbart/reactionary clickbait bullshit video. If this is true, surely it shows up in her own content, right? :^)

>If she loves videogames, why did she bitch about the new Doom (And Fallout 4) being too violent when it's just business as usual for the series?

I love video games. I think, to some extent, all digipen students/dropouts love video games. I FUCKING HATE Call of Duty and sports games and the fucking anime titty shit that keeps showing up on steam. Am I not allowed to be critical of games because I say 'I love games'? Do I need an asterisk there? '*#NotAllGames #NoTrueGamer'

those tweets were in reaction to the E3 trailers, which of course showed off a very limited set of content that the core audience (read: white males age 16-28ish) care about the most. The fallout tweet in question said "The crafting looks cool! I wish it wasn't just all shooting stuff though." The implication is not that there's no cosmetic crafting (because surely there is! I don't expect even bethesda to fuck that up), but the trailer had a distinct focus on the non-cosmetic portions of the crafting. Her point is perfectly valid.

For doom, it was "It's kinda fucked up that this level of violence is okay."

Which is also totally true. it's fucked up that we see a trailer with crazy chainsaw bisections and dismemberment, etc, and are for the most part unphased by it. I love doom and I'm gonna play the shit out of doom 4 when it comes out (something you should know about SJ communities is that it's perfectly normal to consume media that's quote-unquote 'problematic'), but she has a point.

And even if everything you said was true;

If she is a liar, and a thief, and a frigid slut who wants to #KillAllMen,

does it matter in the grand scheme of things? No, it really doesn't.


d6478f No.3232

>>3230

Not for those two specifically, but here's one from another feminist game developer/critic Brianna Wu: https://twitter.com/spacekatgal/status/561544045001179137

BUT IT'S OKAY GUYS, HER GAME IS BAD SO IT'S OK! (I do think her game looks pretty bad but that doesn't make this shit okay.)


d6478f No.3234

>>3230

5 minutes of research found some other stuff too:

http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/132152537305/talking-publicly-about-harassment-generates-more

"But it's the internet you shouldn't take it seriously!"

Let's assume that of those, 99.9% of them are full of shit. Out of a thousand messages, maybe only one is deranged enough to actually act on it. BUT IT ONLY TAKES ONCE TO LEAVE AN IMPACT. web personalities (especially women) need to treat all those harassments has serious because they can't fcking know which ones are dudebro cod players and which ones carve her face on their chest with a knife. This is what #YesAllWomen was about a year ago or so. Sure, #NotAllMen are misogynist harassers, but #YesAllWomen need to be careful because of the ones that ARE.


84a5a1 No.3235

>>3232

The same guy also posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCGGTrR3thI

Clearly a violent criminal that totally didn't make a really poor joke. I'm not even saying he shouldn't be fined…but I would hardly consider that even remotely credible to anyone that bothered to do any research. It's hard to even say if those guys really even consider themselves part of GamerGate…all you can tell for sure is that they wear crappy wigs, like to get high, and like adding the suffix "pocalypse" to everything.

>>3234

Again, you should have taken another 5 minutes, clearly. Not a single one of those towards FemFreq was a threat. Not one. Profane, disgusting, and yeah, I'm sure some of them made her skin crawl…but that's not a threat.

Only 1 of them even mentions GamerGate, and it's actually fairly mundane stating that women would lie about being harassed online. A crude generalization, but not a threat, not even harassment by any definition.


d6478f No.3237

>>3134

>Not a single one of those towards FemFreq was a threat. Not one.

Are you fucking retarded? At least >>3229 has the courtesy to mostly engage me as an equal. I've been following gamergate's bullshit since day -1 and have had to deal with more than my share of 'NOT GAMERGATE! WHERE'S THE HASHTAG? THAT'S NOT HARASSMENT IT'S JUST BOYS BEING BOYS YOU WHORE' idiots. Don't waste my fucking time if you're going to be disingenuous with me. Go back to sucking milo's cock and sending those emails, genius.


c60f13 No.3239

File: 1447086119189.gif (1.67 MB, 427x240, 427:240, 317.gif)

holy christ you all took the bait HARD


3a2027 No.3240

File: 1447090502546.jpg (62.43 KB, 640x382, 320:191, IMG_20151109_093403.jpg)

Look at this excellent business strategy for a video game company


84a5a1 No.3246

>>3237

Really? that's the best you have? That's not even a strawman argument, that's avoidance.

I asked for a single credible threat, and you give me a pothead 20 year old and his friends that make horrible joke videos and a bunch of people saying they're going to jerk off to pictures of her.

Again, read the tweets FemFreq posted. Not a single one of them says anything about any kind of physical attack against her. It's not rocket science, it's basic reading comprehension.

I still have yet to see a single credible threat from anyone even claiming to be GamerGate. That's all I'm asking for…clearly that shouldn't be so hard since it's so rampant?


d6478f No.3247

>>3246

As much as I'd love to play 'watch the gator move the goalposts' over and over, I have better things to do with my time. But please, feel free to write this down as a victory. 'Convinced someone that my autism is so severe they stopped interacting with me! KEEP SENDING THOSE EMAILS, THE NARRATIVE IS CRUMBLING!'


962c6f No.3251

all I can say about any of this is: I wish I was anything other than a straight white cis male, because then I could make any ~personal interactive experience about my feelings~ and Kotaku and Polygon would jizz all over it and declare it game of the year. I could then go on to provoke the internet hate machine, causing them to do what they do best and send infinite hate towards me, and then instead of being a public figure who is an adult, I could cry "harassment", and receive support and donations and Patreon dollars and more, all from my San Francisco apartment where I watch the whole thing on my MacBook (through hipster glasses)

I've literally considered pretending to have gender dysphoria and coming out as trans – which, I know, would be a completely horrible thing to do – because just doing that would make my life so much easier. I could get all the fame and sympathy I want!

too bad I'm too much of a pussy (and/or I actually have morals) to go through with lying to everyone :\


dff22b No.3253

File: 1447124618291.png (6.21 KB, 250x385, 50:77, stand-up-clipart-stand_up-….png)

>>3251

Stay strong. you are a light in a sea of darkness, or a sea of adult-children who rely on political/social movements to bring them success rather than creating something truly fun or original. The easy path is there - but there is no reward. The only thing waiting for you down that path is the eventual realization that you cried in the face of adversity, abandoned your personal values and sense of self, and joined into a glob of nun functioning children who failed to gain a sense of self, meaning, and pride - Instead they borrowed someone elses.

You're just as important as they are. Your ideas deserve just as much respect as theirs. Don't let the twisted and biased views of today be the reason you regret your mistakes tomorrow.


dff22b No.3254

>>3246

And now it's double avoidance, they left. they had absolutely nothing to offer and you sent them packing.

Awesome. Keep it up anon, you're doing good things.


d6478f No.3256

>>3254

Think again, genius :^)

That guy is what we call a 'Gamergate Neutral'. They show up, say something like '#GamerGate is silly but…' (they're easily identified by being the only idiots to write gg as GamerGate) and then proceed to spout pro-GG drivel.

Only someone willingly obtuse would look at the links I provided and think "No, that's not threatening nor is it harassment!", and there's no point to addressing him further. If my evidence 'isn't GG enough', WHERE'S THE HASHTAG? THAT'S JUST A THIRD-PARTY TROLL. If it's 'too GG', THAT'S AN OBVIOUS SJW SATIRE, NO TRUE GGER WOULD POST THAT. The evidence he wants is the intersection of a venn diagram where the circles are miles away from each other. He doesn't respect my time nor my opinion, so I won't respect his.


dff22b No.3258

>>3256

Actually, you're logic is full of fallacies. You are the exact reason why the other anon was saying that SJWs are also toxic to the work environment. You take neutrality as an offense and demand they pick a side. You force conflict on the group until everyone agrees with your views or has been removed.

You have entirely failed to grasp the simple idea that any group can have a member or even someone who isn't a member and claims to be take an action without it representing the entire group.

if it's ok to criticize gamergate for a hundred dipshits who spit vitriol and hatred at females, then it must also be ok to criticize SJWs as a whole for the actions of the most disruptive, hateful and renegade members of the group. This logic would then also apply to all political groups, ideologies, religions, social movements etc.

After all, in the perfect little world you've imagined we're all only as successful, happy, ans strong as out weakest link right? That's what you want isn't it?

The little smiley :^) thing you absolutely insist on doing shows both immaturity and inexperience by the way.


84a5a1 No.3259

>>3256

Not moving the goal posts, nor am I being obtuse. A credible threat from someone that self identifies as being in GamerGate. It doesn't get more straight forward than that.

You posted an unbelievable (decidedly NOT credible) threat from someone that identified as being in GamerGate. Close, but again, not credible. Your other link didn't include a single threat. The closest was a single comment: "drink bleach". Now, if it had said "I'm going to come force you to drink bleach", that might qualify, assuming we had any reason to believe they might do so. They would also have to SOMEWHERE, anywhere, stated that they were involved in Gamer Gate. It doesn't have to be in that post, in that persons entire backlog of posts.

But since we can't seem to even understand what constitutes a threat, then how are we supposed to determine if it's credible?


962c6f No.3260

>>3256

have you ever stopped to realize how much you group and label people? look at every post you've written here. they all contain pretty much nothing but generalizations about various arbitrary groups of people that you've grouped into massive labels. did it ever occur to you that perhaps the world contains more nuance than that? that it's possible for someone to have a more complex worldview than the dozen or so labels you want to categorize everyone into? "GamerGate" does the same thing, of course; there's no arguing that. but I can't believe that you're basically saying "no matter how nuanced your opinions are, I'm going to put you into one of these boxes. if you're not pro-gg and not anti-gg, well shit, I guess I need to make a third box, and that's where you go"

it's fucking alarming (but kind of interesting in an anthropological way) how, if you stand back and look at society today, we're really no different than our tribalistic ancestors from thousands of years ago. like, that's all racism is, right? "your skin is different from mine, therefore you're subhuman because you're different that's weird." but now that we have the Internet, and fucking tumblr, we get to be prejudice against people in all sorts of new, different, and unique ways

before you yell at me for it: when I say "prejudice", of course, I don't mean to say that either "side" of the fucking "gamergate" "debate" is being treated as poorly as, like, slaves were, or that it's comparable to women being unable to vote in the past, or whatever. the fact remains the same though: we have stupid dumb monkey brains and actually thinking about people as unique individuals is hard

why even discuss the multi-faceted, complex issues that comprise the whole "gamergate" thing (because really, let's be honest, nobody can even agree what it even includes anymore), it's much easier to simplify your worldview into "I'm with this tribe, and if your writing sounds like something the other tribe would say, then you're One Of Them and I'm just going to dismiss you entirely lalala I can't hear you"

it all boils down to outrage and bullshit, and nobody wants to unpack these densely-packed issues and actually analyze and discuss any of them, because the Internet just lets me make my own community where me and my tribe can jerk each other off and congratulate each other for not being in that other tribe

oh but please, put me in the "gamergate neutral" box


d6478f No.3261

>>3258

>You take neutrality as an offense and demand they pick a side.

I'm sure you're just going to dismiss me, but seriously: there's no neutrality to that guy. I don't give a shit about actual neutral people, but folks who come online and say 'I'm neutral about GG' are anything but.

>if it's ok to criticize gamergate for a hundred dipshits who spit vitriol and hatred at females, then it must also be ok to criticize SJWs as a whole for the actions of the most disruptive, hateful and renegade members of the group.

I condemn the members of GG who are complicit in the harassment of women. As far as I'm concerned, denying that any harassment occurs is being complicit. As much as I hate to Godwin it up, see also Holocaust deniers.

I too deny any ludicrous harassment from so-called 'SJW's (as much as I'm loathe to use the term). There was a fan artist on tumblr that was recently harassed for not making their art PC enough, and I was all against that shit and spoke up against it too. You're right, this isn't a black-and-white issue; please stop treating me like I think it is.

>The little smiley :^) thing you absolutely insist on doing shows both immaturity and inexperience by the way.

That's funny, 'cause I stole it from the way most channers/ggers type. It's just a le cuck meme just like everything else, isn't it? the toppest of keks :^)


84a5a1 No.3262

>>3256

Also, I write GamerGate because I try not to rely on abbreviations. This is why I never called it "FF" and instead go by FemFreq, the name of the twitter profile.


962c6f No.3263

>>3261

>but folks who come online and say 'I'm neutral about GG' are anything but.

continuing to prove my point!

I'd love to hear your response to my post


84a5a1 No.3264

>>3261

>there's no neutrality to that guy.

I never claimed to be neutral, merely that I don't take either side. There is no right or wrong on this issue…or rather, both sides are wrong. I have my feelings on the issue, but they are bound in fact and observable behavior.

I'm not even saying that nobody has been legitimately threatened by Gamer Gate members. I'm saying that for all the time we have spent talking about it, people sure do have a hard time finding any specific examples.


dff22b No.3265

>>3263

and

>>3260

We're not the same person btw. Sometimes I wish this board had IDs because this is getting tangled and messy.

>folks who come online and say 'I'm neutral about GG' are anything but.

Aren't you just making a huge blanket statement and basically generalizing people with that statement? I mean it's obvious that you see the world and categorize people which is exactly what the 'bad' GGers do.

> There was a fan artist on tumblr that was recently harassed for not making their art PC enough, and I was all against that shit and spoke up against it too.

That was a huge mess and I'm glad to hear we agree on that one. I think we all need to realize that noth sides have something positive to contribute, and both sides have something negative to contribute as well.

Whether or not the human societies of the 2000's will be able to make that sort of compromise - well, I'm doubtful.

All I see from my point of view, being married to an psuedo-SJW and best friends with a GGer, is that people are being hurt on both sides, and no one in this is without sin. Hopefully it passes and doesn't become the Isreali-Palestinian conflict of internet fights.


dff22b No.3266

Whoops, meant that >>3258 and >>3263 are not the same person. Again, IDs would be nice.


d6478f No.3267

>>3260

This is actually very well articulated and your points are totally true. I actually have a story for you, if you'll humor me.

I was basically the quintessential proto-Gator (meaning those who post angry shit on the internet and harass women, etc - I'm not projecting nor implying that you are any of these things) for a very long time - certainly during my first years at digipen. But something happened that changed my worldview: one of my best friends came out as trans, and I did my best to support him during those trying times. I was exposed to the hatred that anti-SJ communities could say (specifically political groups such as the religious right), and, of course, the vitriol from the pro-SJ community - my friend is a transman but presents as female/feminine (mostly by necessity, living in a highly conservative household and dependent on their family). I had found out about myself that I was kind of an asshole (again, I speak for myself only), and I reinvented myself. I found that I had become a so-called 'SJW' around july of last year, right when the initial quinnspiracy stuff was happening. I stand for what I think is right - equal rights, free speech, all that good stuff. GG hits close to home for me, because it's like a bizarro version of what could have been.

You're right, of course: with the internet, it's less who has the most valid points and more who can shout the loudest or get the most friends to shout with you. It doesn't help that I have to shout /particularly/ loud because this is 8chan, the center of GG. I'm more than happy to have a civil discussion about this, but it's difficult when you write a serious post right after your last post about 'beta cuck sjw patreon memes'

If you respect me and my time, I'll respect yours. All I ask is that you actually consider what I say instead of dismissing it offhand.

>>3264

I still think you're sealioning, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Define credible by your standards. The examples I gave are more than credible by my own. Again, these people have to take harassment and threats incredibly seriously because it only takes ONE actual deranged maniac to hurt or kill them. A person making significant threats and causing not-insignificant property damage in the name of harassing Ms. Wu is something I would take super fucking seriously were I in her shoes. SURE, it ended up being a 'satire' channel, but you cannot bank on that. She must be cautious with ALL of these threats.

As for 'there's no threats in those',

>this fucking account makes me want to bash women

(e.g., the FIRST ONE.) seems pretty threatening to me, even if it doesn't outright say 'Ms. Sarkeesian, I would like to perform physical violence against you, thanks in advance'. I'm sure I could find plenty that conform to your criteria - if, of course, the goalposts stay where they are.


dff22b No.3268

>>3267

>your last post about 'beta cuck sjw patreon memes'

I actually believe there's several people posting right now, or at least it appears so. Hell, I'm not even the person you're currently responding to, but I'll tell you what, watching this argument become more civilized as it goes on is really something cool.


d6478f No.3269

>>3268

There are actually ID's here, and I was referring to their post

>>3251

I do agree, though. Although the moment it becomes trolling I'm breaking out the stupid fucking meme face again.


29031b No.3270

>>3265

>>3266

/digipen/ does have user IDs, just look above each post. Click [Options] (in the upper right-hand corner), and then check the "Color IDs" box to see them better, but keep in mind, all posts from DigiPen, for example, will "appear as the same person", and there's nothing I can do to fix that.


dff22b No.3271

File: 1447129503151.png (272.87 KB, 488x563, 488:563, 1440645708524.png)

>>3270

Oh I am a HUGE idiot.

fuck.


4be5b9 No.3273

>>3179

Oh. Well there really isn't a restriction against talking about them here as long as you don't do something at the level of a literal shitpost a la https://8ch.net/digipen/res/3114.html#3114 but if you'd rather not name them… other than instructor I can't think of any words for the term. Surely they're at least doing that, even if it's not being done very well in your/other people's eyes.

>I'm gone for two days and the above posts happen

Well, I guess it was inevitable. I don't want to sidetrack from everyone else's discussion though, so I'll also say it's reassuring to see the insulting slowly go away and result in actual civil discussion. Hopefully you all can learn a bit from each other while you're here, or at least manage to keep things somewhat productive.


962c6f No.3276

File: 1447140268832.png (478.47 KB, 800x1000, 4:5, mgs2.png)

>>3267

>but it's difficult when you write a serious post right after your last post about 'beta cuck sjw patreon memes'

not sure which post you're referring to?

I'm not really here to debate anything by the way; before about a month ago I spent the previous three months wasting so much time on the various "gamergate neutral subreddits" trying to reason with people, and I'm at the point now where I've given up. check out /r/ggdiscussion and /r/againstgamergate; both allow users to literally tag themselves as being on one side or the other. how many of those users do you think ever changed sides after someone convinced them of their viewpoint? I never saw a single one.

fuck gamergate, fuck anti-gamergate, fuck labels. move past that shit. define yourself by what you do, not which labels you've associated yourself with. treat others the same way. it's not fucking hard.


84a5a1 No.3282

>>3267

Credible is defined as believable…as in it's believable that the person involved would actually act out their threat.

The guy in the Brianna Wu video is a shithead, but not violent and we can easily get enough information to know he was making a really poor joke…just from actually watching the single video to completion.

The bash women comment. Ok, they could have meant "bash" as in "insult" (which is how I use the word), but for the sake of argument lets just say it was meant bash as in physically assault. Does that constitute a physical threat? At worst, it's an indirect threat, but I can't honestly say I feel like it even fits there. If the person had said "this account makes me want to blow my brains out", would that qualify as a suicide threat? I'm not really sure what you'd call that, but it's just an adaptation of a pretty common phrase…basically just saying that it makes them lose faith in a particular group.


d6478f No.3284

>>3276

Reddit and especially the gg discussion subreddits are a total circlejerk. That's just how reddit works.

I do lurk ghazi, though. It's alright and most of the legitimately civil discussions i've seen happened there.

>>3282

She MUST err on the side of caution. That's my whole point; I've said it no less than three times now. I couldn't care less if you don't think they're credible - SHE did and that's all that matters. Your reaction on getting something like that - especially something as deranged as that - wouldn't be, "Hmm, perhaps I should do more research as to evaluate the credibility of this threat vis a vis the other hundreds of threats I've recieved", it's "Jesus christ, I'm going to call the cops" (which she did, rightfully so. The guy got in some hot fucking water for it if I recall)

Plus, here's some more lovely tweets:

http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/109319269825/one-week-of-harassment-on-twitter

Some highlights include:

>BITCH WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT SO I HOPE YOU GET FUCKING RAPED U FUCKING WHORE

>you deserve all the death threats you are getting

>How the fuck did you make this about feminism? #Gamergate is about something different! dumb bitch

It goes on and on.


dff22b No.3285

File: 1447187046280.jpg (574.83 KB, 1602x724, 801:362, Flemmings.jpg)

>>3284

To be completely fair, this kind of stuff happens to pretty much everyone via twitter who gets popular. It is in no way shapr or form exclusive to the gamergate/anti gamergate stuff.

Also, if you've ever visited the /pol/ board here, you'll find that they actually push this stuff and pretend to be gamergate because they hate the /gg/ crowd for not being "mean enough" or "redpilled" enough. I'm dead serious, people other than anti-gg hate GG and /pol/ users do in fact pose as GGers to hurt the cause from time to time in organized efforts. It's just amazing how all of GG has been stuffed into the same box as the 30 or so asswipes who threatened people over twitter. Again, if we were to judge every group by it's most extreme members then the entire world would be locked in a standstill because no group is without assholes and crazy people.


bea740 No.3286

How did GG went from journalism corruption, not like that wasn't obvious since the 90s, to misogyny and more?


877bb7 No.3287

>>3286

They had the audacity to be critical of sarkeesian, wu, and quinn


962c6f No.3288

>>3285

this is what blows me away about the harassment whiners: if you've ever been on the internet for more than ten seconds, you should know that "users are allowed anonymity = at least some portion of people will say the most vile shit possible". this is just human nature and no amount of hand-wringing or UN talks will change that

let's say I make a custom reddit or 4chan clone solely for discussing social justice. how long do you think it will take for someone to anonymously post the word "nigger" for shock value? about 0.00025 seconds. that's just anonymity + globalized Internet for you. is it sad? a little bit, but so no more so than, say, someone stealing a parking spot that you were waiting to take, or someone cutting in front of you in line. people are fucking assholes, and when you give them the ability to anonymously treat a random person on the internet like shit, they will totally do it (see: some people in this very board)

also, I would love to hear ANYONE refute this simple fact: Anita, Brianna, and Zoe all baited at least a large portion of their "harassment." obviously there was some contingent of anonymous hate sent their way, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that they've been doing anything but fueling the flames with their behavior, because attention is not only addictive, but it's actually profitable

when the Internet sent hateful shit to Phil Fish to the point where it drove him away from games, it was just the Internet being the Internet, but when the same happened to women, it was because of their gender, and not because it was the Internet being the Internet


962c6f No.3289

>>3286

because, like I said, people like to be in tribes. you know who doesn't have a default tribe? straight white cis American males. none of those descriptors have a "community", because they're the "default" (whether they should be or not). so when you have a straight white cis American male teen who's trying to find a tribe to join, but, being a nerd lacking social skills, has trouble finding a tribe that will accept him in real life, he turns to video games and the Internet, and eventually identifies as a "gamer". when he perceives his "turf", video games, as being under attack by other tribes ("SJWs", "feminists", etc.), of course he'll fight back against it; it's the only tribe he has. when a new tribe forms ("gamergate"), focused on fighting back against these perceived threats, of course he'll join in on it. as the tribe grows, its purpose becomes muddied and nebulous, but nobody cares, because they're all more or less on the same side (oh shit, just like political parties, would you look at that)

this is why "gamergate" is dumb, because it contains:

- people who think that Zoe Quinn slept with dudes who weren't her boyfriend at the time and those dudes wrote positive things about her and her game and that's bad

- people who think that it's frustrating that some people are making low-quality games like Depression Quest and whatever Brianna Wu's game is, and getting preferential treatment by press because Isn't It Great That Women Are Making Games, and that's annoying, especially for other developers who work hard at their craft

- people who are anti-woman

- people who are anti-trans

- people who are anti-"SJW"

- people who don't like it when game publishers and game journalists get up to corrupt bullshit

- people who don't like it when video games are criticized by those who didn't grow up playing them, or whatever

- people who don't like it when other people say negative things about the things that they like

- people who take criticism of their preferred media of video games as a personal attack because they were bullied or shamed for their hobby

- people who want to troll people anonymously on the Internet

- people who legitimately care about ethics in games journalism

- a million more fragmented sub-groups just like these

but of course, as I've said above, everyone likes tribes, so being in a tribe is more important than being able to say "hey, I agree with these three points but aggressively refute these other ones" or whatever. plus, you have "anti-gamergate" doing just what users in this very thread have been doing: "that thing you said is a thing a gator would say, so you must be a gator", which, of course, is a fantastic way to engage in any discussion

combine all that with the fact that, in the past, you had to actually do shit for a cause in order to identify as being part of it (or at least lie about it). pre-Internet, one couldn't really call oneself an "activist" of anything unless they actually did something for their cause. now, all it takes to feel like you're helping a cause:

- make tumblr account

- follow someone who reblogs outrage posts for a cause you empathize with

- read reblogged outrage post, get outraged yourself because you're an empathetic human

- click "reblog"

- +10 to Self-Worth

(replace "tumblr" with "reddit" or "8chan" and you get the same thing but on the "gamergate" side)

it's literally the same thing as a video game – except nobody who shoots a virtual Nazi has any illusion that they're actually fighting real-life Nazism


d6478f No.3292

>>3288

>I would love to hear ANYONE refute this simple fact

About that: it's on YOU to prove evidence for your claims, not me. (And no, 'It just makes sense' or 'it's logical' isn't evidence.)

Are you familiar with the concept of Occam's Razor? It's the principle that the hypothesis that makes the fewest assumptions is most likely the correct one.

Have those critics made money off of this? Sure, absolutely. I'm not denying that at all. Hell, Quinn's memoirs just got signed for a film (which I'm wholly expecting to be totally /okay/). Bu to claim that they've intentionally been baiting harassment, much less a 'large portion' of it? I need solid evidence of those claims because without any, there's about a thousand assumpions there.

And just to snub this out, the Brianna Wu 'false flag' that is always, ALWAYS brought up when this sort of stuff happens: when I saw it, I saw nothing but her venting in a frustrated-but-sarcastic fashion on the forums for her new game, while others (read: gators) saw SJW FALSE FLAGS THE NARRATIVE IS CRUMBLING. I don't have any evidence that it WASN'T a so-called false flag, but again, I'm applying Occam's Razor here.


dff22b No.3293

File: 1447201858146.jpg (176.89 KB, 852x858, 142:143, 1443758985449-0.jpg)

>>3289

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Especially the part about 'membership' of said groups.

What is Gamergate or SJW really? People act like these are institutions, organizations, etc.

How hard is it to become a 'member' of gamergate? You don't fill out an application, you don't have an interview. There is no formalities, records or anything. The only thing anyone has to do is say "I'm part of gamergate" or "I'm and SJW" and low and there you go. Process finished. Now everything you do - good or bad -will be judges by your own 'group' or the other.

This is why the entire "Gators hate women" thing is so ridiculous to me. Literally all I have to do is say I'm a gator and then from now on everything that I say will be percieved as the official opinion of the entire group.

I'm perplexed as to why the anti-GG crowd hasn't also developed an anti-muslim stance due to a minor portion of muslims being dicks to women or terrorists.

None of this makes sense to me, but maybe there is no sense to be made.

Also

>>3288

Spot on, agree 100% - people are assholes and will do asshole-ish things to hurt other people for the rest of time. It's human nature. I think that's something that the other side has yet to figure out, or maybe they have but are in denial. Humans being awful to each other is innate.

>when the Internet sent hateful shit to Phil Fish to the point where it drove him away from games, it was just the Internet being the Internet, but when the same happened to women, it was because of their gender, and not because it was the Internet being the Internet

Spot on


962c6f No.3295

File: 1447204667201.png (49.85 KB, 600x395, 120:79, wu who.png)

>>3292

I'm not going to argue whether or not any of these individuals was false-flagging from the start; there's so much conflicting "evidence" in the form of screencaps and archived pages and crap that there really is no way to tell, and that's entirely beside my point. I'm just saying, if you look at their twitter accounts, all of them scream out "harrassment! help! I'm being harassed! isn't this the worst????"

compare that to, for example, Robert Bowling of Infinity Ward (can't remember if he's still there or not). dude was getting literal death threats because they nerfed a sniper rifle in Call of Duty. he never once baited more vitriol from the community, or made himself into a victim deserving of sympathy. he never claimed gamers were evil misandrists because they hated him, a man. it's the fucking Internet. it sucks but that's the way it is. should we try to educate people about online anonymity and try to improve things? sure, but at the end of the day, when you're a public-facing individual like Mr. Bowling, and the sniper rifle in your video game gets nerfed, someone is going to send you a death threat

the Internet is an incredibly powerful communication medium, and we're only just figuring out how to use it properly. kids are taking nude photos and sending them to each other, and we're prosecuting them for felonies. we take Facebook for granted, and get mad when they try to use our personal information to advertise to us. it's a free product! you never paid for it! of course they have to make money somehow!

so yes, when you are a public-facing figure on twitter, you are going to receive "harassment" to some degree. it's just human fucking nature

if Zoe Quinn's passion truly was making games, and not making a career out of the Internet outrage focused at her, why hasn't she made a game since Depression Quest? why hasn't she been signed on to work at a major studio, if she's so talented?

if Anita Sarkeesian truly wants to critique games like a professional, why doesn't she respond to any criticism, even when it's completely polite and constructive? if she actually cares about documenting all the terrible evils that exist in video games re: how they treat women, where are all the videos she promised? why has she spent more time and effort making a victim out of herself and beating that drum than she has fulfilling what she promised on her Kickstarter?

why are these useless asshats the Most Important Women In Gaming? is this really all we have for female role models for young women interested in the games industry?

there's a young woman who attends DigiPen right now, and while we don't get along, I respect the hell out of her. she came in as a freshman RTIS knowing nothing about programming, and by sophomore year she was incredibly competent. I've never seen her once use her gender as an excuse for fucking anything

Samantha Kalman is a local transwoman indie dev. she taught herself how to use Unity and released Sentris on Steam. no idea if it's good or not, but I never once saw coverage about how great she and her game where solely because of her "trans" or "woman" status

we need more women like these, and less like Anita and Zoe. I'm not even convinced Zoe knows how to actually program; Depression Quest was written in Twine. I'm not gonna be That Guy and say that Twine games are invalid forms of interactive self-expression or anything, but like, compare Depression Quest and Sentris. regardless of how good Sentris is, it clearly took a nonzero amount of effort to put together. Depression Quest is one mechanic – "make a choice of what to do next and if you try to make a positive choice, it strikes it out, because that's, like, depression, you guys – and some not-so-great writing. it's not the worst game of all time, but it's a pretty fucking minimal effort to be parading around as an amazing achievement


d6478f No.3297

>>3295

>look at their twitter accounts

You see, you say these things, then I go to check twitter.com/FemFreq or twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy or twitter.com/spacekatgal and see…nothing of the sort? At all? Okay, Zoe Quinn's pinned tweet is re: the film. That's fair! She was at the epicenter of all this bullshit, and frankly if I got a film deal I'd be posting about it too.

I follow all of them on twitter (OMG COLLUSION), and it's curious: they only ever post about harassment when they're getting harassed! Curious, huh?

>Robert Bowling

I'm not saying that harassing men is okay, either. I (and the SJ community at large) take a anti-harassment stance for EVERYONE.

But you can't reasonably draw a comparison that Mr. Bowling gets threats saying 'I'M GONNA FUCKING KILL YOU" and, say, Ms. Quinn who gets that, PLUS rape threats, PLUS nutjobs stalking her in reality. You can't deny that them being women has a factor in it.

In a perfect world, the internet would develop some empathy and realize that humans are humans and treat each other with respect. That's what I strive for.

>Why hasn't [Quinn] made a game since Depression Quest?

Because her whole life was uprooted due to Mr. Gjonji's bullshit and now she's focused on supporting the industry in her own way. Next question.

>why doesn't [Sarkeesian] respond to any criticism

An unpopular opinion, but I'm rather happy with Obama and his time in office. But I wish he'd cede less ground to the right! I send him letters every day but he doesn't respond. Why do you avoid my criticism Mr. Obama :'(

Perhaps that's an extreme example, but the principle holds: IF SHE TOOK TIME TO RESPOND TO ALL CRITICISM, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE TIME TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. If she did, you'd just have more people complaining about 'WHERE'S THE VIDEOS ANITA?"

>"WHERE'S THE VIDEOS ANITA?"

Oh lordy.

She's released videos at a steady - albeit slow - pace. Her Kickstarter made roughly 26 times what she asked for.

I'll repeat that: TWENTY-SIX TIMES. You may be surprised that throwing more money at something doesn't actually make it go faster - often, it adds additional overhead to make things take longer.

Why focus on her for supposedly 'not delivering', though? Indie darlings Shovel Knight and Undertale were kickstarted and came out a whole year past their 'Estimated Release Data'. I never hear anyone complain about those.

>I'm not even convinced Zoe knows how to actually program;

Oh, shit, I didn't realize the entry into being a game developer hinged on being a programmer.

…does Wizards of the Coast know? They're probably hurting bad with those worthless, non-programming Magic and DnD properties they have.

I'm not gonna touch on this further because the last thing I want to get into is a fucking 'what's a game/are games art' debate and that will somehow make even less progress than this discussion. tl;dr: you are not a gatekeeper. no one is a gatekeeper. stop gatekeeping.

Also, you want some 'not-so-great writing'? Go play recently-released AAA darlings Starcraft 2 LotV or Fallout 4. Whooeey, those games have some god-awful writing. I'm not the biggest fan of Depression Quest myself (although I respect Quinn for making it), but at least it doesn't actively insult my intelligence every 15 minutes.


d6478f No.3298

>>3295

>>3297

Actually, I want to elaborate a little further on

>Why doesn't [Sarkeesian] respond to any criticsm.

She's in an interesting place where NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES, she will have haters swarming her.

>She releases videos fast

WOW NICE PRODUCTION QUALITY, DID U PUT ANY WORK INTO IT? LOL

>She releases videos slow

WOW Y U NO RELEASE VIDEOS? SCAMMING JEW OY VEY LOL

>She responds to no criticism

WTF Y U NOT LISTEN TO MY HOUR-LONG RANT? I HAVE AN IQ OF 155 AND A DEGREE IN LAW AND

>She responds only to well-written criticism

LOL LOOK AT HER AVOIDING MY EXCELLENT ARGUMENTS *fart*

>She responds to all criticism

MAYBE U SHOULD SPEND LESS TIME JUSTIFYING UR ARGUMENTS AND MAKING VIDEOS HUH?

>She appears on a well-known television series

>"Name 3 examples of games with excessive violence/sexism"

>She names three

#NOTALLGAMES LOOK AT THIS FAKE GAMER NOT KNOWING THAT #NOTALLGAMES

>She names none

LOOK AT THIS FAKE GAMER SHE COULDN'T NAME ANY!!!

>She names one then segues into 'It's pointless to name specifics'

LOL LOOK AT HER DEFLECTING SHE COULDN'T THINK OF MORE THAN ONE SO SHE AVOIDED IT

SHE CANNOT WIN. No matter what she does, there will be haters, because a lot of her haters are irrational and acting through pathos. They don't hate her work; they hate HER.


84a5a1 No.3306

>>3284

As for the Brianna Wu video, I'm glad she called the cops, and I'm glad the shitburger got in trouble for it. He should be charged for wasting the police's time, if nothing else. That doesn't make it a credible threat.

As for the FemFreq post, I looked into a few of those that were actual threats. Of the first 3, the first (DisputeBrawl) was an account that has since been banned. The second (CorruptedNuk3r, now AtomicNightcore) apparently really likes taking pop hits, speeding up the audio, and putting it to pictures of anime girls, and the third (OMGLove_) is a female that doesn't seem to talk about anything other than Call of Duty. I can't confirm that any of the 3 of them has ever said they were part of GamerGate…because we are more than a year out and they both post like 20 times a day.

However, in that post, I did find 1 winner…EduardoCruz52, about a third of the page down. says he wants to sleep with her and then run over her, and in his next tweet says #GamerGate. I mean, we could still argue over whether it's credible or not, but at least it's a step in the right direction when it comes to proof.

Which is why I find this line so funny:

>>3292

>About that: it's on YOU to prove evidence for your claims, not me.

I had to do a lot of research here to back up YOUR claims…that any of these people had anything to do with GamerGate. That was your claim, and you didn't really do anything to provide that proof, other than post a link that just happened to have it (even though you quoted from the link and somehow missed that one?) I'm not accusing you of any wrong doing, just pointing out that the burden of proof ALWAYS lies on the accuser.

>>3297

>You can't deny that them being women has a factor in it.

Again, the burden of proof lies on the accuser. You're saying she gets more/worse death threats because she's a woman. Prove it. The argument could easily be shown that she gets more rape threats because she's a woman, but overall threat amount and how graphic the threats are? That's quantifiable data that has never been presented.

> IF SHE TOOK TIME TO RESPOND TO ALL CRITICISM, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE TIME TO DO ANYTHING ELSE.

Who's asking her to respond to all criticism? I've yet to see her respond to ANY criticism, unless you count an annual report she released for 2014 on her financials. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/1115560)

To my knowledge, she's never addressed the accusations that she cherry picks information and/or misrepresents characters or storylines, or anything else that she has been accused of.


d6478f No.3307

>>3306

>doesn't make it a credible threat

Once again, it doesn't matter what your perception of it was - what matters is hers. She saw it as credible. That's enough for me to consider it credible as well.

I feel like we're at an impasse on this particular topic - I think it's credible, you don't. If you think there's more discussion to be gleaned from this topic, feel free to bring it up, but I'm largely out of things to say and don't think I'll change your mind on this matter.

>providing proof

I'm going to be a pendant/sperg here (debate club background, woo) but the burden of proof is typically (but not always) on the proponent of a claim.

>Quinn, Wu, et. al. were false flagging/baiting harassment for their own gain!

You are the proponent of this claim, and thus it lies on you to provide the burden of proof.

>GG harasses women!

I am the proponent of this claim, and thus it lies on me to prove it.

It's interesting that you bring statistics up - I would love to see an objective analysis of GG tweets. I did a little cursory research, and there's not a particularly large amount of literature on the subject, but I did find this:

https://medium.com/@cainejw/an-actual-statistical-analysis-of-gamergate-dfd809858f68

This is an article discussing an analysis of about 25% of all GG tweets between September 1 2014 and October 25 2014. There's a lot of questionable data in this article - their main points are focused on whether tweets are 'positive, negative, or neutral' without ever delving into what determines that criteria, and BrandWatch's own website (https://brandwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Sentiment-Analysis.pdf) doesn't exactly shed any light on the matter either, delving into it in only the most broad terms.

What IS interesting are the numbers. They provide these numbers - tweets containing the GG tag to prominent gg-related figures:

>Anita Sarkeesian (35,188)

>Zoe Quinn (10,700)

>Brianna Wu (38,952)

>Kotaku (23,500)

>Leigh Alexander (13,296)

>Nathan Grayson (732)

>Stephen Totilo (1,708)

I find it most curious that Mr. Grayson has less than a tenth of the tweets Ms. Quinn has, despite ostensibly being equally as, if not more important than Ms. Quinn in thezoepost. This discrepancy can perhaps be justified as GGers tweeting at kotaku's main account, but even factoring those numbers in, Ms. Wu and Ms. Sarkeesian's count is still almost double that. I don't think it's irresponsible to conclude that, of individuals, these prominent women faced the brunt of GG tweeting. Again, I can't speak for the contents of those tweets themselves (although anecdotally I've never once seen a tweet to any of those people with the hashtag that was positive toward them), just the numbers.

>I've yet to see her respond to ANY criticism

I addressed this here:

>>3298

With regards to cherrypicking, keep in mind that Feminist Frequency is not primarily a gamer-focused series. From their website:

>[Feminist Frequency] largely serves as an educational resource to encourage critical media literacy and provide resources for media makers to improve their works of fiction.

In the interest to keeping the series accessible to everyone, I don't think it's unreasonable to simplify or, yes, even cherry-pick specifics for the sake of simplicity at the cost of absolute accuracy. Additionally, the Tropes vs Women series as a whole is focused on broad tropes and strokes game developers use - 'Game X has objectified women' and 'Game Y has objectified women' is not the implication that all games objectify women, but that there is a distinct use of these problematic (if you'll pardon my use of SJ jargon) tropes across different content creators.


962c6f No.3308

>>3297

>>3298

this is why I didn't want to debate this here; you're speaking in all-caps and using Internet acronyms to sarcastically respond to my entirely well-intentioned post. you're getting overly-emotional about the issues that you were trying to discuss. you're doing exactly what I said above: you saw me make claims that "gamergate" makes, and you immediately switched into your "anti-gamergate" mode to "combat" me. I'm done here; I knew that an anonymous imageboard was not the place for this discussion, and you've proven that quite well

I thought maybe we could have an intelligent discourse based on your response to my previous post, but it seems that I was mistaken

thank you for your time


962c6f No.3309

I wasn't going to post anything else in this thread, but then I just went to take a shit and saw on my phone that Garry Newman (creator of Garry's Mod and co-creator of Rust) just updated his blog. read both of these:

http://garry.tv/2015/11/10/stalkers-and-abuse-part-1/

http://garry.tv/2015/11/11/stalkers-and-abuse-part-2/

here's Garry, posting now, in 2015, about a clearly very mentally troubled guy who has, since 2009, been systematically harassing not just Garry himself (the Internet-facing famous game developer), but the rest of his family:

>The usual back and forth happened. Then someone made a twitter profile using my dead grandad’s name and started tweeting to my sister. They also made a facebook profile using my dead grandad’s name, filled with nazi and pedophile stuff, and started poking members of my family with it.

>Again, I’ve got a thick skin. I can take this stuff. By my sisters and my mom don’t deal with internet trolls every day. They don’t understand why someone would do this.

- why didn't Garry cry about it on social media?

- why did he handle it privately, behind the scenes, instead of making himself out to be a victim?

- why isn't Garry getting a book and film made about this whole story?

- why does Garry's gender have nothing to do with his harassment?

- why is Garry still making games?

- why didn't this harassment "drive him out of the industry"?

most importantly:

at the end of the second post, he alludes to this being the most ridiculous harassment he's ever received, but he also alludes to it being just one example of many. how much more actual harassment of him and his family has occurred?

compare these two stories:

you have Garry, who made Garry's Mod. Garry's Mod started out as a shitty mod for Half-Life 2 that let you create constraints between entities (weld stuff together, attach stuff with ropes, etc.). over time, it grew and expanded to be this completely different thing, this framework for people to make custom gamemodes and scriptable entities and weapons and stuff in. it was very successful, he made a lot of money off of it, and he used that success to better himself (his programming skills were entirely self-taught; he learned C++ as he made Garry's Mod), hone his craft, and look, now he's working on Rust, and the company he's started is working on like three different games

and then you have Zoe, who made a mediocre Twine game

both people received a ton of harassment and abuse that they most certainly didn't expect. there's a good chance that you're reading this and you still didn't read those blog posts. go back and read those fucking blog posts. compare that chain of unrelenting harassment to anything that's happened to Zoe. let's not play the Harassment Olympics, but let's just agree that the magnitude of the harassment is at least somewhat comparable. in both of these situations, individuals suddenly found themselves in the public eye of the Internet, receiving harassment and abuse from it. however, Garry and the others have handled it differently

which of these is a better role model? which one of these people do I want to become, should I find success with any of the games or content I've made? do I want to deal with the harassment and abuse, refusing to let it distract me from my craft? or do I want to get up on a soapbox and cry about all the mean things people have said about me on the Internet and become this perpetual victim, to the point where I'm literally having a book and movie made about my sad, sad story?

one of these is a caricature, and one of these is an incredibly respectable individual


b5198d No.3311

god damn what happened to this thread

can you fags just bring this to some gg board?

Also please sage.


d6478f No.3313

>>3308

Fucking lol. The moment I make a post with actual numbers and sourced evidence from pro-gg people,

>You're too emotional for me! Caps lock and abbreviations! :'(

You may find it interesting that most humans act with ethos (acting ethically), logos (acting logically), AND pathos (action emotionally), and that factors in to debates as well.

Another anecdote: I've found historically that people who claim to only be only arguing and convinced by logos (which, yes, includes myself all those years ago) to be driven more by pathos than any basis in reality.

>>3309

Because there was only /one person/ that's this ridiculous. There's a fucking nutjob who tweets AT ME with regularity with gorn and threats and bullshit (and hey, they tweet using #GG sometimes too, wow) and I don't complain about it because i just fucking blocked them.

Quinn, Wu, et. al. had the fucking force of 10,000 irrationally angry nerds posting vitriol equal to if not worse than those emails Garry recieved (need I bring up the 'twitter account' for Brianna Wu's fucking dying dog?!). If I were in that position you'd better fucking believe I'd be speaking out about it, too. Sure, that's not the only one. But I'd be willing to bet that the total number is far, far smaller than the counts that Quinn, Wu, etc had (see

>>3307

for those numbers)

Nice false equivalence between Gmod and Depression Quest, by the way. That's a very logical and not at all emotional argument. If I wrote

>you have garry, who made a mod for an existing already-successful game

>you have zoe quinn, who made a game using twine that helped transcribe her own struggles with depression and suicide into a format that allowed for introspection by those who maybe have not had the same struggles as she

Hmm, I wonder who seems more empathetic now?

Garry receives nearly no harassment compared to Quinn, unless you mean to propose that yes, garry also gets 10,000+ angry tweets and emails a month and had an entire slander campaign around him over something he didn't even do. It's not even comparable.


962c6f No.3314

>>3313

look, I want to discuss things reasonably (politely and logically), and you want to discuss things emotionally. that's cool; we have two different approaches to the same problem… but they aren't very compatible, so I'm afraid we're not going to be able to have a very useful discussion

for instance, I admitted that I have no idea whether Quinn, Sarkeesian, or Wu ever false-flagged to drum up sympathy. how could I? how could you, or anyone? yet, judging by

>an entire slander campaign around him over something he didn't even do

, you apparently remain convinced that Quinn didn't cheat on Gjoni, something that neither of us has the right to speculate on

I said I didn't want to play the game of Oppression Olympics, and here you go, playing Oppression Olympics:

>But I'd be willing to bet that the total number is far, far smaller than the counts that Quinn, Wu, etc had

I'm honestly feeling very silly for engaging in this discussion at all. if it weren't for you posting >>3267 it never would've even crossed my mind, because like I said, this isn't my first rodeo

I apologize for wasting your time and getting you worked up over meaningless bullshit

in my opinion, you are falling victim to the over-the-top Internet outrage culture that has blown up to the point where corporations are literally using it as a marketing device (see: the recent coffee cup "controversy"). this ties in with what I said several posts above, about neo-tribalism and groupthink

I cannot stress enough the importance of introspection, of searching one's feelings. not all emotional reactions are rational. consider why you feel so defensive for a woman who you've never even personally interacted with, and why a large portion of the Internet feels quite the opposite

consider yourself and your own opinions: do you even have your own opinions? do you agree 100% with everything Quinn and Sarkeesian say? have you ever read a highly-upvoted post on /r/gamerghazi and disagreed with it? if so, did you immediately censor that feeling of disagreement in order to "fit in" with the hivemind?

realizing that I could agree with some of what is posted on /r/KotakuInAction while disagreeing with a lot of it was the first step to understanding just how subtly influential online communities can be, and how poisonous such tribe mentality can be to free thought

once again, I apologize for wasting your time and emotional energy. enjoy the rest of your Veteran's Day evening


d6478f No.3315

>>3314

>you apparently remain convinced that Quinn didn't cheat on Gjoni, something that neither of us has the right to speculate on

Whether or not Quinn cheated on Gjoni is no one's business but her own. I'm referring to the implications that she slept with Grayson for reviews (you know, that whole 'actually it's about ethics in games journalism' thing), which are demonstrably false. (Source from the horse's mouth: https://twitter.com/Vahn16/status/501650041736396801)

>Oppression olympics

I've said before that I stand against all harassment. This includes that of Garry! But Ms. Quinn and the other targets of GG have orders of magnitude more shit they have to deal with. It strikes me as a bigger problem. Note this is also how feminism works: I want equal rights for all! Why do I not call myself an egalitarian, and instead do call myself a feminist? Because in my eyes women need help to get where men are now. I would LOVE to live in a world where Quinn only got as much harassment as Garry, or Robert Bowling (OPTIMALLY, I don't want anyone to receive harassment at all, but baby steps.), but that's simply not the case.

>Neo-tribalism and groupthink.

I would really appreciate it if you don't insult my intelligence with the implication I'm just participating in irrational groupthink. My opinions are my own.

>Why do I feel defensive for Quinn et. al.

I mentioned this briefly before, but I'll elaborate further. I was following GG since day -1. Mr. Gjoni posted his diatribe on a variety of different websites before he made the tumblr, one of which is one I follow. I read it, and came to the conclusion that "this guy's a nutjob". I'm rather active on Twitter, and I've seen firsthand the vitriol spewed at Quinn, Wu, Sarah Butts, Arthur Chu, Randi Harper, etc.

I stand against all harassment, and I have condemned people 'on my own side' who have went out of their way to harass GGers. But the amount of hatred flowing was and still is largely one-way.

>A large portion of the internet feels quite the opposite.

The thing is with the internet is that you can be quite loud indeed with very few people. I searched for some analytics (http://topsy.com/analytics?q1=%23gamergate) and it seems that (lately, anyway) there's on average 5k to 10k GGers on twitter. Factoring in that #NotAllGGers are on twitter (there are plenty on /r/kotakuinaction, /gamergatehq/, /ggrevolt/, and, yes, /baphomet/), that's still, what, 15k people? (And that's being particularly generous with the non-twitter counts)

And I'm not implying that the so-called antiGG is any bigger! We're likely just as small if not smaller. It's easy to be loud in the internet. Like it or not, the vast majority of people just don't care.

>do you agree 100% with everything Quinn and Sarkeesian say

Of course not. I have some serious beef with how Sarkeesian presents some topics. I watched her review of the new Assassin's Creed last night and jeez she really needs someone to do second-pass editing. But I commend her for speaking out about it, because someone needs to.

Quinn? I already said I wasn't a huge fan of Depression Quest, but I respect her for making it and the message it had.

>Ghazi

Sure! It's not that uncommon that someone will single out a gator or a specific redditor and while I do love to laugh at the shit they say, that sort of stuff just invites harassment and brigading.

Reddit is not my stomping ground (I largely just read /r/gamerghazi and /r/games). I mainly frequent a site with a large developer community and a largely neutral opinion on GG. (I'm omitting its name as it's identifying information and I like being an anon, thanks)

For what it's worth, I do appreciate the (relatively) civil discourse we've had here. You've given me stuff to think about and I can only hope I've done the same for you.


1be17c No.3317

>which of these is a better role model? which one of these people do I want to become, should I find success with any of the games or content I've made? do I want to deal with the harassment and abuse, refusing to let it distract me from my craft? or do I want to get up on a soapbox and cry about all the mean things people have said about me on the Internet and become this perpetual victim, to the point where I'm literally having a book and movie made about my sad, sad story?

This. People who want to be successful in life don't let shitty people get them down. If someone "breaks" every time the get harassed, they probably shouldn't be using social platforms & should probably seek help. They shouldn't be blamed for being harassed, but they should do something about it rather than endlessly complain.

>Nice false equivalence between Gmod and Depression Quest, by the way. That's a very logical and not at all emotional argument.

It's not. It's two people who made games, got support for their games, and then also receive harassment. They chose to very different ways of dealing with it.


84a5a1 No.3321

>>3315

> I'm referring to the implications that she slept with Grayson for reviews

I'm not going to deny that there are people who believe this…but the more rational people in that argument (if there are any) claim that she slept with him for positive press, not a flat out review…which he DID give her.

I really don't understand why you feel the need to belittle Garry's suffering while complaining about the others. We can give you plenty of examples of men being terrorized online, but your reaction seems to be "yeah, but women have it worse." Let me put it simply: I do not care who has it worse. Online harassment is a people issue, not a feminist issue.

I don't mind when people speak out about it. I don't demand that they suffer in silence about it. I don't mind that Anita/Zoe/Brianna called it out. What I care about is that they overblew the whole thing, and tried to blame it on a single group of people. Rather than say "I've been doxxed by a user", they said "I've been doxxed by GamerGate", same thing with violence threats and insults, without any real proof to suggest that even 10% of such posts were from people who believed in the cause.

THEY made it about online harassment, while GamerGate tried to keep it about ethics in journalism. And journalists, of course, went with it…because if one side is blaming YOU, which side are you going to take? Meanwhile, both sides are getting threats, insults hurled at them, and prominent figures are getting doxxed. But you largely only hear about one side of the argument, because the other side is claiming that the people reporting on the story are corrupt.

So the story gets bigger and bigger, and while Anita and Co get more and more press, their opponents get less and less, to the point where few people even know of anyone specifically involved in the GamerGate movement. It doesn't matter that they are being harassed, threatened, doxxed…because they are against the media. Anita and the rest are instead thrown into the public face in the worst way possible.

They are champions of the industry! Standing up to an industry full of basement dwelling neckbeards. More and more gamers catch on to this, and what do you think happens? The insults, harassment, and threats increase…because that's what happens when you become famous for saving an industry that doesn't feel like it needs to be saved, particularly when you insult them at every opportunity in the process.

Famous people start to get involved. Chris Kluwe starts calling gamers "neckbeards". CNN picks up the story. Everybody starts running with the story that the games media has pushed…because once again, they are the only ones covering it, and one of the sides is claiming they lack ethical integrity. Meanwhile, nobody can really name anyone involved other than Anita, Zoe, and Brianna.

Even those of us that know something stinks…we start to make jokes about "it's about ethics in gaming journalism", as if that's not a discussion worth having. You so much as mention corruption in the industry, people label you as a GamerGater. Anybody asks for proof that women are being harassed more than men, and they are instantly labeled as misogynists.

Make fun of Anita Sarkeesian? People start implying that you are one of the people that sent her death threats. Ask for evidence? People accuse you of "sucking milo's cock" and being a "Gamergate Neutral".

And the kicker is that we all know video game journalism has an unhealthy relationship with video game developers and publishers. Major sites rely entirely on ad revenue for the very games they're supposed to be critiquing. Journalists allow companies to put them in fancy hotels for several days to play their game. Fuck, a journalist from IGN appeared in one of the most highly reviewed games of 2012, which turned around and had a major controversy over something that virtually no reviewer even bothered to mention.

Hell, we even know of a prominent journalist who was fired from his job when he dared to give a poor review to a game that advertised heavily on his site. Jeff Gertmann.

But now we're not allowed to talk about it, because the second you point out that video game journalists have an unhealthy relationship here, you get labelled as a GamerGater and accused of harassing women.


962c6f No.3322

>>3321

>Fuck, a journalist from IGN appeared in one of the most highly reviewed games of 2012, which turned around and had a major controversy over something that virtually no reviewer even bothered to mention.

who from what site appeared in which game?

and if so why does this matter? unless the person reviewed the game he was in, why is this an ethical issue?

not to take away from everything else you said, I'm just curious about this


d6478f No.3323

>>3321

>I really don't understand why you feel the need to belittle Garry's suffering while complaining about the others.

Hahahaha, what? I never once belittled Garry. Come on, man.

> I do not care who has it worse. Online harassment is a people issue, not a feminist issue.

Online harassment is a people issue! I agree with you. But it's ludicrous to say that GG is not a feminist issue. I posted the numbers upthread: women received a disproportionately higher amount of GG tweets than men. This entire stupid THING was because of the implication that a woman used her 'feminine wiles' to get a good review for her art game.

This is a without a doubt a feminist issue.

>What I care about is that they overblew the whole thing, and tried to blame it on a single group of people

When you've been the target of a focused harassment campaign, that's not exactly a ludicrous assumption. Especially when some of that harassment came with, y'know, that good ol' hashtag-gamergate on it.

Occam's Razor. We can assume that we have groups of ancaps/MRAs/PUAs/MGTOWs/libertarians/other groups that are overwhelmingly white men ages 16-28 ft the demographic (but not gamergate) performing this third-party harassment campaign to slander these women who have never talked about their specialties, but rather liberal aspects of the video game industry.

Or we can call a spade a spade.

>GG has tried to keep it about ethics in journalism.

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I'll humor you, since I don't have to go very far. Let's visit /gamergatehq/, right here on our lovely 8ch.

>OTHER MAJOR GG GROUP IS THIRD PARTY TROLLS

>SJW NEWS AND ISSUES

>OTHER MAJOR GG GROUP IS THIRD PARTY TROLLS (Again)

>SPJ Nomination brigading (ETHICS!)

>Feminist political comic (With bonus THE NARRATIVE IS SLIPPING)

>Parody trailer of Crash Override (but it's about ethics)

>!! FEMALE !! senator tells men to stfu

>SJWs attack journalist

>SF5 gets censored (with bonus wild SJW CONSPIRACY despite being a wholly internal choice at capcom)

>Reminder about how to present GG (Ethicsy enough that i'll grant it, even though it's mostly 'don't act weird and keep pushing the ethics narrative.)

And a smattering of other non-ethics non-sjw posts I omitted. That's just on the front page (i.e., the most recent topics)

If GG was about ethics before, it certainly isn't now and hasn't been for a long time.

Plus it's funny that they're more or less in bed with Breitbart, who's basically a media sith lord in this day and age.

Christ. Turns out I wrote a fucking essay. Sorry about that. Part 2 incoming.


d6478f No.3324

>>3321

>Saving an industry that didn't need saving.

Maybe not to you, but think empathetically for a moment. I (and in all likelihood you) are white men. The characters in games I play are largely the same demographic as me. This is normal to me.

Now, let's say you're a woman, or transgendered, or a 'person of color' (black, asian, latino, whatever). Maybe you want to get into games! You pick up Call of Duty. You play as a White Man working with with other White Men shooting Not White Men. Maybe there's a token black guy or 'manly' woman, but just the one. Maybe you stick with it and have fun, but it would be nice to have something that resonated more with your own identity. Maybe you move onto a new game. An action-RPG, perhaps. Skyrim! The Witcher 3! Still overwhelmingly white men. You go online to post about it and get told it's 'too unrealistic' to have black people in a fantasy world with orcs and dragons.

Sure, whatever. MMORPGs, maybe. Go play WoW. You play Horde (as is proper), roll up a troll warrior and have fun. You hit 85 (or whatever the cap is now) and start raiding. The other people in Vent are all white men. Most of them treat you the same as any others, but a few are condescending to you. Maybe there's another person with your own situation in the group, and when you talk to them they tell you "that's just how things are. don't rock the boat."

Gaming was fine if you were the historical demographic. But it should be inclusive to everyone who wants in. There should be something for everyone. That's what it was all about.

>Famous people

Funny you should mention Kluwe (nice guy. has a far higher tolerance for bullshit than I do, and that's saying something). You ever play Shadowrun Returns? It's alright, Dragonfall and Hong Kong were better. Remember that troll bouncer in the bar in Redmond? Looked a little like him, shared his last name?

Guy's a seriously hardcore gamer. If you wanted to have a stink about someone, Arthur Chu is a much better bet (Guy didn't have any horses in this race until GG.)

>as if that's not a discussion worth having

You know what's funny? What's fucking hilarious? Waaaay upthread I posted that I'd be the first in line for an ethical journalism club.

I wasn't kidding. It's totally a discussion worth having. But time and time again, I almost never see it brought up and not in a serious light.

>Review Embargos

>Reviewer Blacklists

>Paid/Sponsored Reviews

Huge issues! Enormous problems! But even when GG started being a thing, I rarely saw it brought up. Another anecdote: When the Shadow of Mordor review stuff came out (I think that was Totalbiscuit or Jim Sterling? I don't remember, whatever.) someone posted on KiA 'hey, maybe we should try to raise awareness about this?

Downvoted into the fucking ground. And yeah, I know, KiA, but it's still the #2 GG hub around.

But the 'ethical' stuff that GG HAS compained about seems petty at best and a fundamental misunderstanding of what an 'opinion piece' is at worst.

>Bayo 2 got a 7.5 from polygon :'(

>Reviews aren't objective enough! :'(

>Person X supports Person Y on Patreon/follows them on twitter/wrote a nice thing about them once! Collusion! :'(

Gerstmann is a great example, too. That's the sort of shit I oppose and try my damnest to move against. I guess what I'm trying to say is GiantBomb basically the only good game review site on the internet. (For what it's worth, Gerstmann is 'anti-gg' as well.)

>Now we're not allowed to talk about it

It's funny, because the actions of the few tainted it for the whole batch. And I agree with you! There are serious concerns that now won't be taken seriously because of GG. Maybe it's hasty to label the person GG, but that taint will be there for a long time.


4e771d No.3325

File: 1447359522473.jpg (9.23 KB, 204x203, 204:203, FB_IMG_1446569975411.jpg)


877bb7 No.3326

>>3324

there are black people in tamriel, ever heard of the Redguard? They originate from Yokuda (before it sank into the sea), but they live mostly in the harsh desert regions of hammerfell and act as traders in Elsweyr. You don't see them a lot in skyrim, because only the Nords (for the most part) are crazy enough to want to live their lives there, with most other presences having political or economic interest in the area.


962c6f No.3327

File: 1447365674950.jpg (165.17 KB, 1050x526, 525:263, please_check_one.jpg)

race in video games is an unwinnable war, because somebody always has something to be offended about

I don't expect non-Asians in Dynasty Warriors. games based on European fantasy: spoilers, gonna have a lot of white dudes in em

remember the time when a major video game franchise set their latest numbered sequel IN AFRICA, and everyone got offended when the returning white male protagonist and new half-black female protagonist spent most of the game shooting black zombies, because that's how zombies work, they zombify whatever humans happen to live where the infection outbreak occurs? and the whole thing was made by a Japanese developer, so there was LESS THAN ZERO chance of intentional Americentric racial overtones, but nobody cared, because people are stupid enough to see "white guy shoot black people = bad"?

fucking try and tell me that the claims of "racism" against Capcom and Resident Evil 5 had any validity at all. anyone, I dare you

guess what? pretty sure nobody's gonna set a AAA game in Africa again anytime soon. it's much safer for a AAA publisher to make a game about white dudes shooting ambiguously evil Russians

same goes for female portrayals. people are bending over backwards now to make their games FemFreq-approved, but FemFreq nearly always seems to find SOMETHING "wrong".

so there you have it, now AAA games are pretty much all design-by-committee, too scared to push the boundaries in any way for fear of public outcry, and people wonder why "hurr durr too many brown shooters"


d6478f No.3329

I think

>>3326

>>3327

are kind of missing my point! I'm not complaining about racism in games - I'm complaining about representation and diversity, and that games could do a better job of it to help widen the audience for newcomers (which, as game devs, you kind of want to do because more audience = more money).

>>3326

If you really want to bring lore into it, Hammerfell shares a land border with both Skyrim and Cyrodiil AND Hammerfell is the third-largest country in Tamriel, but there are still curiously few Redguard in both Skyrim and Oblivion.

A little thing I liked about Oblivion is that as you moved further south toward Bravil and Leyawiin, you started to see more and more Khajiit and Argonians. Which makes sense! That portion of Cyrodiil is flanked by Black Marsh to the west and Elsweyr on the east. Why, then, are there just as many redguard in Markarth as there are in Riften? It's something that wouldn't have taken very much effort at all to change, and in all honesty was probably not intentional at all - I'm not claiming malice on Bethesda's part whatsoever.

I actually looked at the numbers for Skyrim out of curiosity. The distribution roughly goes like so:

Nord > Imperial > Altmer > (Expected; these are the major players in the game's meta-story about the occupation of Skyrim)

Dunmer (Higher than it should be normally because of Dragonborn; normally would probably be below Breton or even Redguard but I can't be assed to remove Dragonborn NPCs from my count) >

Breton > Redguard > (Makes sense-ish - Daggerfall and Hammerfell are both shared borders - but there's a little footnote. See below.)

Bosmer > Khajiit > Argonian (Sensible, too. They're the furthest away from Skyrim.)

The gap between Breton and Redguard is HUGE. There's about 65-70ish named male Bretons in Skyrim (Some NPCs appeared multiple times on the list and my first count didn't factor that in, so that's why it's a range.). That's not even factoring in the female Bretons! There are 53 named Redguard in Skyrim total, across male and female.

This is the sort of stuff I'm referring to. It would hardly hurt to include more Redguard NPCs into the game. So…why aren't there more?


d6478f No.3330

>>3327

>European fantasy

Have you ever visted Spain, Portugal, or (to a much lesser extent) the south of France?

I haven't, but it's one of my life goals. The architecture there is stunning. There are gorgeous castles, churches, minarets, mosques…

The Iberian peninsula was occupied by the Moors in the middle ages by the Umayyad Caliphate - a North African and Middle Eastern empire.

Hell, there exist massively important pieces of media today corroborate this. Ever read Shakespeare's "Othello, the Moor of Venice"?

European history in reality wasn't whitewashed. So why is it in modern media?

>RE5

Total alarmist/sensationalist bullshit. I'm with you 100% on this one.

>AAA games are pretty much all design-by-committee, too scared to push the boundaries in any way for fear of public outcry

We're arguing the same sides, here. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Developers should not be afraid to push the boundaries when it comes to any aspect of their product. And yes, part of that is the fault of sensationalist, fair-weather liberals (so-called 'SJWs', et. al.), just as much as it's the fault of the sensationalist right-wing (GG et. al).

>FemFreq

About this: people always SAY this, as though Sarkeesian is frothing at the mouth to condemn all video games. Although my views aligned with hers, I never really went through the trouble of watching her work until relatively recently.

There's a /myriad/ of problems with it (I think I said upthread that she seriously needs another editing pass or two), but her always finding something wrong is a consequence of media itself (there is no non-problematic media; or in other words someone will always find something to complain about).

I'd really appreciate it if you took a look at her recent review of AC: Syndicate (http://feministfrequency.com/2015/10/22/assassins-creed-syndicate-review/). She talks about what it does right (actually a surprising amount for a game by Ubisoft, the epitome of 'design-by-committee') and what it does wrong (…it's still ubisoft.). She doesn't focus a lot on the actual gameplay, because that isn't the /point/ of the FemFreq series. Does she find stuff with it? Sure. Will she always find problems with media? Absolutely. That's the point of a critic - to find flaws in media.

Perfection is impossible. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it.


84a5a1 No.3337

>>3322

>who from what site appeared in which game?

Chobot from IGN appeared as a journalist you could invite on your ship and romance…when there were 2 other journalists in the series that you could have chosen instead. And it matters because it's a conflict of interest. Everything from "my friend is in the game" to "if you gush over our game, maybe we'll put you in the next one too". Not saying either one of those was actually said aloud, just the implications are there in the subconscious.

>>3323

> I never once belittled Garry. Come on, man.

I didn't say you did. I said you belittled his suffering, by claiming it wasn't sufficient to be compared to that of Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu. He was attacked and insulted and harassed by an individual over the course of 7 years. Maybe it's just the one guy, maybe it's not, we don't know, all we know is that he's been victim to a prolonged harassment campaign by this individual.

>But it's ludicrous to say that GG is not a feminist issue.

Is it? We've been over this enough…there's not evidence to suggest that GamerGaters represent a statistically significant portion of the people that were/are harassing the people involved. The only actual research done on the topic of gamers harassing women actually seems to suggest that gamers are MORE tolerant than the general public, though it wasn't a large enough study to be proof of anything.

> Occam's Razor.

Look, you love to throw out Occam's Razor…I think you need to look up what it actually means. "Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected." It's about assumptions, not simplicity of argument. When you follow the words "Occam's Razor" with "We can assume", you kind of forfeit whatever point you were trying to make. Most of the leading anti-feminists and MRA's that I'm aware of are, in fact, female, but either way, that's entirely hearsay. Also…"some of that harassment" isn't statistically relevant, particularly when we've only found 1 example. No, I'm not asking you for more, I'm saying that of the dozens we've looked through, we found 1.

>GG has tried to keep it about ethics in journalism.

>I actually laughed out loud when I read this.

Which is interesting, because you wrote it yourself. We've already covered that I tend to avoid abbreviations. I also said that they WERE trying to in the early months. No, maybe not everyone, but a significant portion of the people involved.

As for your proof that they don't do that, (and again, I didn't make the argument that it's not where we are at now) I wouldn't consider complaining about Social Justice Warriors to be at cross purposes with talk about ethics.

>Saving an industry that didn't need saving.

Again, this isn't a quote from anything I said. I said "saving an industry that doesn't feel like it needs to be saved". Whether it needed to be or not was irrelevant.

Call of Duty you generally play as a white man (though not always), and it tends to have a pretty diverse cast, actually. I've seen plenty of black men and latinos over the years. Women aren't general put into combat positions at anywhere near the same rate as men.

Skyrim is a Viking simulator that takes place in the mountains. I felt like it had suitable diversity for its location.

Witcher 3 is a Polish game that takes place in Fantasy Poland…a country that is 98.6% "European" ancestry and 1.4 "mixed". Yeah, it's got white people. As for "men"…I question if you played the game. Of the top 5 most powerful people in the game, 3 are women. You even have the option of installing a female ruler of the Viking isles.

>Funny you should mention Kluwe

Whether he is a nice guy or not is irrelevant. Whether I like him or not is irrelevant. Whether he was informed on the subject of GamerGate or not is irrelevant. All irrelevant to what I was saying. Famous people started getting involved, and with it, people started following their opinions without getting informed of the facts. (what the facts are…you guessed it…irrelevant to this point).

> But the 'ethical' stuff that GG HAS compained about

Again, irrelevant to the point I was making. I was saying that it's become such a joke, that saying "I want to talk about ethics in journalism" has become synonymous with "I'm in GamerGate." They've successfully stigmatized the discussion about ethics in video game journalism. And hell, we are all guilty of it. I've made the jokes, I'm sure you have too.

>Gerstmann is 'anti-gg' as well.

hmm, nope, don't care. Is anti-GamerGate a thing? I thought we were doing the abortion thing and being "pro-women in gaming" and "pro-ethics in journalism" (see, there's that joking about again.)


d6478f No.3343

>>3337

>Garry

If you want to call it belittling, fine, I suppose I am. The scales of the ordeal are entirely different, though. They're not comparable. They're both BAD, but one is worse.

Let's look at it this way:

You're working in Edison. It's pretty loud and irritating in there, so you put on some headphones to drown it out. Maybe someone comes by to bug you, and you ignore them. They go away eventually.

Maybe the entirety of Edison wants to annoy you, except only one comes every half-hour or so. Definitely worse than before but still bearable. Maybe you'll invest in a pair of noise-cancelling headphones.

Imagine, now, that the entirety of Edison is shouting at you all at the same time. They're actively pulling off your headphones so you can't drown them out. A friend of yours gives you industrial-grade hearing protection and gorilla tape to attach it it to your head, and now that crowd is yelling at them too. You decide to go home. Some of them are following you! Not all of them, not even most of them, but enough that it's alarming. They're shouting and throwing rocks at your window in the middle of the night. You can't let your dog outside because you can't trust that they won't hurt it.

Garry is the first guy, or maybe the second guy, depending on how much harassment he's actually received. Arthur Chu or Ian Chuong are in the second category, sometimes breaking into the third category. Quinn, Harper, Wu, et. al. are all unilaterally the third category.

>Occam's Razor

I chose my words intentionally. Go back and reread what I wrote.

>CoD

'Women aren't put in combat positions at anywhere near the same rate as men'

But they're still put into combat positions at all! The only female character of any significance I can think of in CoD are Zombies mode characters - none in the main campaigns.

Writing these posts always brings up my curious side, and I haven't played a CoD game since Blops 2. Ghosts and AW are more of the same, but it turns out Blops 3 has a surprisingly diverse cast in the campaign and the multiplayer! You can even play as a goddamn woman.

Fuck, if goddamn Call of Duty can do it successfully, anyone can do it.

>TW3

I haven't played it, actually, though I've played TW1 and am working through TW2. Their representation of women has for the most part been pretty good - my emphasis was more on 'white' than 'men', but eh, blame it on the ambiguities of the internet.

I understand 'write what you know'. CDPR are in Poland, a predominantly ethnically white country. But developers shouldn't be afraid to, nor should they shy away from 'write what you don't know'.

>Skyrim

That'd be a fair argument if it took place in Sweden and not a fictional country that shares a large border with a country which is largely composed of people of color. But I'll grant you that, too - only total aspergers nerd lore pedants like me actually give a shit.


3d5841 No.3350

Been stalking this thread for a while now, there's one thing I don't get.

So if putting black people in a game "expands your audience", and having mostly white people in your game is not very "inclusive". How come making your game characters mostly black does not cause you to lose the audience of white people.

Could it be that most consumers don't give a damn about race or gender and just want a solid game that is fun and plays well.


d6478f No.3351

>>3350

I'm curious to hear what game/s you're thinking of, specifically, or if you're just talking out your ass.


84a5a1 No.3358

>>3343

>They're shouting and throwing rocks at your window in the middle of the night. You can't let your dog outside because you can't trust that they won't hurt it.

Did any of that happen to them? It's not a very good analogy…Zoe can unplug her computer anytime she wants. There's no mob sitting on her lawn threatening to kill her dog. What's happened to her is unacceptable, but it's not the KKK burning a cross on her lawn.

>I chose my words intentionally. Go back and reread what I wrote.

I did, and I rebutted as much as needed rebutting. You seem to think Occam's Razor is an excuse to not look beyond the surface level. It's about not making assumptions based on your own biases.

If that's too vague, I'm saying you're biased, and that you're making assumptions the whole time while telling us not to.

> But developers shouldn't be afraid to, nor should they shy away from 'write what you don't know'.

That's not the point. They shouldn't be forced to have black people in their game. There shouldn't be some quota imposed on developers to have representation in their games. Writing a black character into the game just for the sake of having a black character would have been disingenuous to the developers, the customer, the world they've helped build, and the history of Poland.

The Witcher is full of Polish lore. There's a reason a copy of Witcher 2 was a gift to our President. Do I really need to write you an essay on how amazing it is that Polish culture is still in existence today after the past 150 years or so?

> only total aspergers nerd lore pedants like me actually give a shit.

The extent of my knowledge on the subject is that Skyrim itself is largely vikings, and other humans come from elsewhere. I couldn't possibly argue as to WHY the Redguard don't have a massive influx into Skyrim,

I'm not saying these are things we shouldn't be thinking about. I'm saying these are things we shouldn't be trying to impose arbitrary numbers and launching campaigns against. Call of Duty knew their audience was predominantly teenage males, so they made a power fantasy to cater to them. The Witcher is a Polish game that is based on a white protagonist. Skyrim plays like a love letter to Viking culture…or at least what Bethesda thought was Viking culture/their own spin on it. And the best part is…you can make a black character if you want to! Shit, you can run around as a cat person if you're into that kind of thing.


84a5a1 No.3359

>>3350

>How come making your game characters mostly black does not cause you to lose the audience of white people.

I'm guessing The Walking Dead? It's the closest I can think of to a game with a mostly black cast.


962c6f No.3361

you guys are all missing a very important piece of the puzzle that everyone seems to miss when talking about this sort of thing

- corporations exist to make money -

prior to the very recent surge of independent game development – facilitated by easier-to-use development tools like Unity, Game Maker (with the stuff added since the YoYoGames acquisition, namely the cross-platform stuff), and UE4 – video games cost a lot of money to make, and their cost only went up as time went on. games kept setting the bar higher and higher for graphical fidelity, realisticness of characters, breadth of content (just look at any open-world game), and so on. think back to the early Xbox/PS2 era and look at where non-indie games are now. notice how teams went from 1-5 programmers in the 8- and 16-bit era to smallish teams in the N64/PS1 era, and now you have pretty much every major AAA game being made by hundreds of people, usually from different companies, over the course of several years

look at the death of the mid-tier non-indie game: Midway went out of business in 2009. for better or for worse, we no longer have video game tie-ins for every animated film ever. if you see a new video game based on your favorite Saturday morning cartoon, it's now a Gravity Falls mobile (iOS/Android) game, and not a $20-40 Xbox One/PS4 game. "weird" (niche) mid-tier Japanese games never kept up with the AAA games, because of their niche appeal

so what happens when cost of development skyrockets due to consumer expectations? you have to play things super safe. you can't afford to risk tens of millions of dollars (or more!) on anything that's not going to be a surefire hit. I've been recently going back and studying the changes the video game industry has gone through in the past decade or so, and it's been absolutely fascinating. remember in 2008/2009 when Capcom was trying to make more Western-style games? they had Grin, a Swedish developer, make Bionic Commando: Rearmed (an "HD remake" of the original 8-bit-era Bionic Commando), as well as a new, AA- or AAA-budgeted Bionic Commando for PC/Xbox 360/PS3. the new Bionic Commando was a completely different game, a third-person shooter with grappling and swinging mechanics

this kind of game would never come out today, holy shit, right? like, how many gamers playing games today even know what Bionic Commando is, and even if they did, who would put down $50-$60 for a new game in that "franchise"? some people, to be sure, but definitely not so many to justify the cost of that game. Grin went out of business later in 2009, after that game was released.

so for a long while there, the bottom dropped out from the middle tier of video games, and people were struggling to figure out what to do. thank God almighty that Sony and Microsoft finally pulled their heads out of their asses and focused on indie game development for their new consoles, because otherwise the industry would be pretty much dead. it's still not in a great place, but we're getting better; people can afford to take risks on their weird indie games, because they're being made by small teams (and, sometimes, individuals), and they're selling for $1-20, not $20-40. the development tools are in place to facilitate this, too; instead of having to make a fresh engine every time you make a game, you can just use Unity for your cross-platform weird indie games

how does all of this have to do with sexism and minorities and shit?

once again:

- corporations exist to make money -

think back to BioShock Infinite. relatively recent game, coming from a well-respected developer, led by a well-respected game designer (one of the few "household names" in games [note: this isn't me gushing over BioShock Infinite; I don't really like it that much, personally]). remember the big fuss over the game's box art being generic as hell, just a dude with a gun on his shoulder or whatever, instead of something more artistic?

yeah, why did that happen?

- corporations exist to make money -

focus testing. full stop

when you have as much riding on the success of BioShock Infinite as Irrational, 2K, and Take-Two did, you can be damn sure that some marketing guys are gonna focus-test the shit out of your game. I know nothing about focus-testing except that the people who do it probably know what the fuck they're doing because they get paid so much to do it. you, reader, and I can sit around all day saying "why aren't there more games with female protagonists?", but any marketing guy at a AAA studio could probably tell you, quite simply: "if you have two games side-by-side in Walmart, with identical premise and gameplay, but one game has a black trans lesbian on the cover, looking badass, and one has a presumably-straight, presumably-cis white American male holding a gun on the cover, one of these is going to sell more than the other"

does this suck? absolutely. people complained for years about "brown shooters", but enough of them sold to the point where they kept making them, right?

some people try to argue against it, or say that it's wrong, but the fact remains that most people who buy game consoles in America are, or at least have been mostly 18-24-year-old straight white cis males. game marketing departments are only doing their jobs by making games marketed directly at them, instead of reaching out to more demographics

if you're making a game and you know that the majority of your market is [demographic], why would you market it to anything but [demographic]? niche Japanese games that still exist do very little to make themselves more appealing to Western audiences, while AAA Japanese games do the exact opposite, and try to cater toward Western audiences specifically because, as I said above,

- corporations exist to make money -

, and they have to in order to meet the worldwide sales numbers that their games' budgets demand

so you might say that AAA video games "have been sexist/racist/otherwise prejudiced" in the past, and even going forward, because they have marketing people behind them, doing their job to make sure that the games are as appealing as possible to as much of a market as possible that will buy the games. sure, at any point, Brown Shooter 34's protagonist could have been even a gay white American male, but come on, that would obviously be an unnecessary risk, from a business perspective, right? as a marketing guy, I can point to this stack of research showing that 18-24 straight cis white American game-playing males will undoubtedly buy the game if there's a white dude with a gun on the cover, but if we make that white dude gay… who knows what that would do to our sales numbers? would they go down because the demographic we traditionally target has a high chance of being homophobic? probably! would we sell more copies to gay people, because they now have a protagonist that they can somewhat identify with on a superficial level? maybe! that's one hell of a multimillion-dollar gamble, though! why take the risk? why not play it safe?

thus: Western video games have been traditionally marketed directly at teen-to-young-adult straight white cis males. I don't think this is a controversial statement, but it seems like a ton of people would like to refute it

I am NOT saying that ZERO women, minorities, etc. also played these games. this is obviously not the case. but the fact remains: I haven't even played Call of Duty: Black Ops III, but I have little doubt in my mind that the protagonist is a straight white male, and this decision was made in order to sell games, NOT because of bigotry or whatever

ALL OF THAT SAID:

this is why the new indie game market is absolutely fantastic for everybody

now we can have, once again, this great "middle tier" of video games, but this time they're even better than they ever were before. they're cheaper than before ($1-20 instead of $20-40). they're lower-risk than before (smaller teams + easier-to-use dev tools). and, because of these reasons: they're more diverse than they ever have been, allowing the games industry to finally branch out and reach people who never would have thought of video games as a thing they would even try before. boom, now video games have the power to be actually mainstream, instead of this weird stigmatized semi-niche thing they've always been before. finally we can move past the public perception of video games as this thing that only children, virgin neckbeards in their parents' basements, and college frat bros play. I didn't even talk about the mobile games market, but that's obviously a huge plus, too; everyone has a damn smartphone, and now everyone can play games. I can begin work on a game right now, today, using Unity, and target literally everyone with an iPhone, iPad, and Android device. you don't have to go out and buy a console to play my game, nor have a prohibitively-expensive PC; you just use the thing that you're maybe even reading this on right now

basically: I'm stoked for the future of video games, and incredibly optimistic about how it's going in general

WHICH IS WHY

people like Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn piss me off so much

like I've said in previous posts, they're probably the two most well-known female names of real people in video games, and they haven't contributed a damn thing to this industry. Quinn made a single shitty Twine game, received an undeserved amount of flak for it, and is now making a career out of combating "harassment". Sarkeesian made a couple of shitty videos that raise a couple of good points here and there, but are largely complete garbage, and she's making money hand-over-fist for it

these two women have done nothing but complain about the video game industry, instead of actually striving to prove that, no, women can totally make games just like men

I actually really liked Quinn a lot before the whole GamerGate thing. one time I saw a video with her in it, and she was talking about how she was playing around with VR in ways that nobody else really was: using webcams as well. she said she made a simple thing where she attached webcams to the front of Oculus Rift prototypes, and then made a "game" out of it where two people wore these headsets and shot each other with Nerf guns, while only being able to see the feed from the other player's camera. this is obviously nowhere near a full game or anything, but I was incredibly inspired by her creativity and out-of-the-box thinking with regards to virtual reality and the cool shit we can make with it in the future

but now look at her: she's caught up in her own bullshit drama. she literally has a book and film in the works about her "terrible tragedy of harassment". she hasn't made a single game, even another simple Twine story, since Depression Quest

dear God I hope nobody thinks of her as a fucking role model

same goes for Sarkeesian

is a non-trivial amount of vocal hate sent her way the result of gamers being overly-defensive about their favored medium? absolutely, no question

are she and McIntosh feeding into this vocal hatred? absolutely, no question

because of FemFreq, you now have young people that think that an acceptable contribution to the video game industry consists of breaking down the racial distribution of fictional video game characters in video games that take place in European fantasy settings… instead of, like, making their own games that contain the characters and settings that they want

in my opinion, both of these women are demonstrating to girls and young women that even learning the minimum amount of computer science skills in order to make a simple Unity or Game Maker game is a waste of time, compared to just being vocal about How Things Should Be and being an eternal victim

again, I'm going to bring up Kalman and Sentris, because it's the first thing that comes to mind when I think of "women in video games" that aren't Sarkeesian or Quinn

look at the trailer for Sentris: http://store.steampowered.com/app/303530/

from the reviews, reactions to the game seem to be mixed, but like, just look at that video. look at all the work that went into making the blocks animate when they move. look at that crazy waveform visualization thing in the center background. look at the entire visual style of the game. whether the game is good or not, a lot of effort was spent making it look and feel exactly like how the creator intended. I can't help but fucking respect that. I'll bet that I have more programming skill than Samantha Kalman (who, again, taught herself Unity [I'm not sure whether it was JavaScript or C#, but that doesn't matter] in order to make this game), but she fuckin worked her ass off, polished up this game she made by herself, and released it on Steam. I might be technically more skilled at programming than Kalman, but I have infinite respect for her for having a vision, executing on it, polishing it up, and releasing it. that's something that I haven't done outside of GAM, for crying out loud

but, nobody knows who she is, because the industry is too busy bowing down to Sarkeesian and Quinn, instead of looking for actually inspirational minority developers like Kalman

remember: Kalman is also trans. she doesn't really say this anywhere, but she has talked about it publicly. she doesn't wear it as a badge of honor. she doesn't cry about negative Sentris reviews, because obviously someone who would rate her game negatively is anti-woman, anti-trans, or both. she made a fucking game, put her name on it, and released it

I can only hope that girls and young women looking to get into video games can see the larger picture of the "GamerGate" fiasco, understand why it happened, and see Quinn and Sarkeesian for being the self-absorbed eternal victims that they are. I hope that they see people like Kalman and look up to them as inspirations for what one woman can do in 2015 with just an idea, a copy of Unity, and some determination

like I said in the first half of this rant: indie games are the awesome savior of artistic expression and diversity in video games that we've badly needed basically since the birth of the medium. some of the stuff that you see come out on Steam, itch.io, and elsewhere on the Internet is so fuckin cool, so interesting, so original

we need more of this shit!

making a career out of publicly crying about the mean things that the anonymous Internet said to you is not how you reach the goal of increased diversity in video games

I only have this greater perspective on the situation because I've spent the last couple of years obsessively researching the video game industry and how it's changed over time

I don't expect a third-grade girl, interested in getting into making video games, in 2015 to do the same. I would expect her to see Quinn and Sarkeesian as role models

and people wonder why there aren't more women in the video games industry

it's probably just all the toxic masculinity


877bb7 No.3363

File: 1447740606615.gif (977.18 KB, 500x240, 25:12, applause.gif)

>>3361

I don't care if this is just a thread of a bunch of people telling one (maybe two) GGers why they're wrong despite their inability to think about what they read. This post said so much and did so much without a single insult or flustered reply to someone's uncontrolled arm flapping. Regardless of how much or little your intended audience reads into your post, you have performed a commendable act. Well done anon, well done.


0179b5 No.3365

>>3361

If there is one post in the entire thread worth reading, it's this one. You summed up my feelings exactly.

You want this industry to change? Make more games.

Nintendo would have never allowed a game like, say, Binding of Isaac on the 3DS several years ago.

Hell, Edmund expected everyone to hate his game once it came out because of how weird and personal it was.

Today, the game has sold millions of copies, had an expansion, then had a remake… which then had an expansion. It is also on the PS Vita AND 3DS.

This is the game that got an 'M' rating in Germany for 'Blasphemy'.

How did this happen? How did such a game be allowed to represent such large members of the industry?

Edmund made a game… and people saw that it was good.


d6478f No.3367

>>3361

This is a fine post. For the most part, anyway.

I still have beef with it (wow what a shocker) but I have other obligations to attend to right now.

But just to throw out my $0.02:

"If you don't like it, why don't you do it yourself?" is the single worst statement you can say to both a developer and a critic.

As a developer, I FUCKING AM.

As a critic, that wouldn't hold any water for other media, so why does it here?

Film critics don't need to be filmmakers.

Food critics need not know how to cook.

So why, then, do game critics suddenly need to shut up and become game developers, instead of just critiquing work?

It doesn't make any sense.


d6478f No.3368

>>3358

>Minority quota

I'm not saying that at all, dude. I'm saying "Developers SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID TO have minorities as major players in their media", not "Developers MUST have minorities as major players in their media."

If they don't, that's fine! Progressives will keep asking for it, and it's totally in their right as developers to ignore them.

>>3361

>Corporations exist to make money.

Not arguing that in the slightest

Let me tell you a secret. No, not even a secret. THE secret. About not just games, but literally all media in existence:

When it comes down to it, no one actually knows what the fuck they're doing.

There is exactly one metric to know if a piece of media will do well: "Did the last one do well?"

That's it! That's the secret. Everything else is a shot in the dark. There's no formula for a hit in any media besides 'do what this other hit/our other hit did'. That's why there are so many fucking sequels in media today. That's why you go to see Marvel Movie #18, or play Call of Duty #100. Because you liked the last one.

That's the purpose of marketing, too. They don't exist to sell you on the new one - they exist to remind you that you liked the last one. You ever notice how so many ads start with "FROM THE CREATORS OF CALL OF DUTY/THE MATRIX/HARRY POTTER/whatever"? That's why. The best marketing in existence is word of mouth. How many times have you bought a game - as in a new, original IP game, not a sequel. - because of an ad for it, versus because your friends liked it? Rocket League is the last game I got like that. Plenty of others: Minecraft. Myst. Hell, fucking Doom!

That's one of the reasons that a lot of marketing groups are pushing toward Youtubers and other social media personalities: even people like Pewdiepie and Totalbiscuit, who have subscribers in the tens of thousands, do a great job as feeling like a friend, not a celebrity. A friend's opinion (even a 'manufactured' friend like those Youtubers) is worth far more than any marketing budget could achieve in its lifetime.

Marketing also has another important job. They don't need to sell the game to you or me - we've decided if we're gonna get it the second it's announced, for the most part. They sell the game to 'casuals'. People who maybe bought a console for christmas, or share it with family/friends. That's who the focus testing and marketing targets are for. That stuff DOES affect them, and I agree that changing things like cover art WOULD negatively affect sales, because at that point we're not looking at a game-space issue, we're looking at the overwhelming societal issues. Is it something we should change? Yes! Will we change it? Probably not, and I totally understand why - it's a society thing.

This is why it's PARTICULARLY important that the AAA space starts being more inclusive: they can afford to do it.

Let's look at a hypothetical scenario. Let's say that every single vocal progressive in games didn't buy the new CoD on principle. That's, what, 50,000 lost sales? (And that's being very generous with the numbers). That's NOTHING. That's $3 million lost (again, being VERY generous with the numbers and assuming that 100% of your $60 goes into Activision's pockets). That's less than one percent of their total gross revenue after 3 DAYS (and, once again, that's an extreme case. The actual numbers would almost certainly be FAR lower). CoD games historically make around $1 billion. It's a drop in the bucket. Bobby Kotick isn't going to notice his Scrooge McDuck money vault is an inch lower than usual.

And we can say the same for the opposite argument! Let's say that vocal conservative consumers do the same. They're about as numerous as vocal progressives (numbers are upthread, still >>3307), so we can say they number about 50,000 as well. That's approxiamtely same financial loss (read: negligible)!

At the end of the day, MOST CONSUMERS DON'T CARE. Hell, 'Most Consumers' in reality includes a large majority of the rabid progressives and conservatives I included above (good ol' MW2_Dedicated_Server_Boycott.jpg). They will happily buy the new CoD game and play it and enjoy it no matter what.

Is this hypothetical flawed? Of course it is - it's an abstraction. The reality is far more complicated than you or I know. But even if I'm off by an order of magnitude ($30m instead), the total loss isn't outside the realm of expectation (Advanced Warfare sold 6% less than expectations, after all - a much larger total loss than $30 million, I assure you.)

There is no way that adding inclusive elements to their AAA game would have a significant impact on their bottom line. And if that's the case, why don't they? They have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

8ch has a post size limit when saging, apparently. Part 2 incoming.


d6478f No.3369

>>3361

Also, I mentioned this earlier but Blops3 lets you play as a man or woman in the campaign, both fully voiced, and my understanding is that there's another major female character who plays a prominent role in the game as well (Rachel Kane), and it's on track to outsell both Ghosts and Advanced Warfare. (Not as much as Blops2 and earlier titles, though. Is it because of the women with guns? Annual series fatigue? A raven flapped its wings in Togo? No one can really say for certain.)

>Focus Testing

The big thing about focus testing is it's not infallible. If anything, recent major releases have shown that relying on focus testing can backfire SPECTACULARLY.

Just look at Ubisoft and pretty much everything Microsoft is doing with the Xbone/Kinect. Marketing professionals and 'business people' all forecasted nothing but success for stuff like Watch Dogs and the Xbone, and both of those have been pretty abject failures (on the scales we're talking about, anyway - even an abject failure is still making them a bit of money).

>Quinn

I've already talked about this subject in depth, I know I won't change your mind about them, and frankly I'm getting pretty tired of repeating the same points over and over, so here's the short version:

Quinn's credentials of a game developer are of no importance, unless you want to be a gatekeeper (which, as a developer, you shouldn't be. Gatekeeping shrinks your audience and - CORPORATIONS EXIST TO MAKE MONEY -, don't forget.) She's been a primary target of a systematic harassment campaign by games enthusiasts (who may or may not be associated with the GG movement) that has overtaken her whole life. It's more than just "turn off the computer you hysterical dame". I'd do the same thing if I were her. She's helping women and other minorities manage harassment. How is this a bad thing?

Part 3 shortly.


d6478f No.3370

>>3361

>Sarkeesian

A lot of people say that Sarkeesian is making 'money hand over fist', so I did some research and found the FemFreq 990 form for 2014 here: http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/463/463408143/463408143_201412_990.pdf?_ga=1.59417444.852503102.1447601114

First things first: I am taking these filings as True and Correct, buecause tax fraud is a big fucking deal and we would have heard about any tax-related misgivings by now. If you have issues with the numbers, feel free to contact the IRS.

Of note, Sarkeesian paid herself a salary of $18,885, working on average about 60 hours a week (which, it's worth noting, is below the federal minimum wage). FemFreq had a total revenue gain of $411,929, less $64,264 for expenses paid (which includes her salary, other wages paid, taxes, travel, etc. - standard business expenses), making a total profit of $347,665. All that money is also solely gained by charitable donations and grants. And here's the big thing that a lot of people seem to misunderstand: THEY ARE UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO SPEND EACH CENT THEY RECEIVE. Just like a normal human, they can save the money for unexpected expenses, improving their work conditions, doing other outreach - tons of things. So, FemFreq made a fair bit of money - for the charity. Sarkeesian herself? She's making less than minimum wage.

>Are they feeding into this vocal hatred? Yes, absolutely

People keep saying this. I have yet to see a single shred of proof of it. I asked for proof upthread and got none. I'll ask for it again. Either source your quotes or quit trying to present your opinion as fact.

>More women developers/role models.

YES! Absolutely, I agree. Kalman's a great example. I wish there were more women developers, too!

How do we do that, I wonder? I bet if games were more appealing to women, we'd get more women interested in the hobby - and by extension, development (and I don't mean more pink and cooking games - stereotypes ain't cool). Maybe also showing that STEM fields are welcoming, too - it's not just a boy's club. Naturally, we'd treat them as equals too (not saying we don't, but some people don't, y'know? Help speak out against that sort of thing).

Whoops I just described feminism. Huh. Funny how that works.


b1b25f No.3371

>>3369

>>3370

>>3368

I've noticed you seem to talk down a lot more than your opposition

Why is that?


962c6f No.3372

File: 1447822823449-0.png (25.58 KB, 776x248, 97:31, female game developers 201….png)

File: 1447822823470-1.png (168.02 KB, 488x402, 244:201, femfreq_00.png)

File: 1447822823481-2.jpg (69.87 KB, 590x380, 59:38, femfreq_01.jpg)

File: 1447822823491-3.jpg (13.45 KB, 480x360, 4:3, femfreq_02.jpg)

File: 1447822823491-4.png (51.06 KB, 623x351, 623:351, femfreq_03.png)

>>3367

so I hope this means you see where I'm coming from with Quinn then, and why she's a terrible role model for young women looking to be game developers?

* * *

as for

>"If you don't like it, why don't you do it yourself?" is the single worst statement you can say to both a developer and a critic.

:

>As a developer, I FUCKING AM.

ok cool I'm not talking to you. why would I tell someone who is already doing something to do it? I don't get what you mean by saying this aside from angry all-caps. let me reiterate: I wasn't talking to you. responding to something I never asked you makes no sense

>As a critic, that wouldn't hold any water for other media, so why does it here?

I don't agree with FemFreq's puritanical views on sexuality and narrow-minded views on morality. I think many video games are incredibly lazy with their portrayal of women, but I don't think there is a moral or ethical problem for doing so. and, as I noted in my previous post: there's a very good reason for video games to pander to young straight white cis American male: it's the target audience. what does that demographic like? boobs, guns, explosions. wow holy shit it's like developers are making games for just for them

I don't know whether or not more and more women are playing console games these days – the "more gamers are women now then men!" statistics always include browser and mobile games – but I think it's pretty safe to say that a lot more young straight white cis American males play these games than any other demographic. (we're talking about the Western games market here, not Asian free-to-play games and other stuff.) and then you have the entire "gradient" around that demographic: straight black cis American males. straight Asian cis American males. etc.

as I said in my previous post, AAA games have gotten to the point now where they cost a lot of money to make. so like… yeah, you're not gonna get a AAA-quality console game targeted exclusively at girls and/or women anytime soon. that's just the logical state of the video games industry

but like I said, this is where indie games are amazing: anyone can make a Twine story. basically anyone can make a simple game without writing a single line of code in Game Maker, RPG Maker, Construct, and many other free or inexpensive (and easily-enough piratable) tools. a lot more people than you'd think could take it a step further and start writing GML in Game Maker or creating custom crazy shit with Ruby in RPG Maker or scripted entities and gamemodes in Garry's Mod

it's not hard, the tools are there. so why aren't more girls and women getting into making games?

probably a lot of societal factors and stuff that I'm really not educated to speculate about

but do you know what's sure as shit not helping?

women (and men and everything in between) shouting at the free market

* * *

let me break it down:

successful male game developers are usually pretty good at making entertainment that a lot of people – mostly men and boys – like. some women and girls also like this entertainment, but it's targeted at men and boys. generally speaking, men are competitive and entertained by violence. games are competitive by nature*. thus, video games having organically become a pastime enjoyed by mostly men and males makes a lot of sense

this is all completely fine; this is the free market at work

early video games were just very simple competitive games. as games got more complex, they started to have stories. the stories in video games are largely not great, because they haven't had to be, until very recently. as the video game player age range increased (older gamers… got older), games began to "mature" a bit. now, many games include stories that attempt to captivate the player moreso than ever before. some games are even mostly about the story and barely focus on the "competitiveness" of the gameplay at all, such as Asura's Wrath and Heavy Rain

this is all completely fine; this is the free market at work

since video games were first created, there have always been women and girls who enjoyed them, despite being outside of the target audience. some games even as early as Pac-Man were designed to appeal to women, but most were not. there have almost always been female video game developers – using "developer" both in the "programmer" sense and in the greater "contributed art, sound, design, etc." sense, too – but the number of male game developers has always far outweighed the number of female game developers

this is all completely fine; this is the free market at work

back to where we were: video games are evolving, and the importance of stories in games increased. this attracted more girls and women to play them; some girls and women who are turned off by space marines shooting aliens into gibs might be totally into the story of Final Fantasy VII. more women and girls playing games leads to more women and girls getting into game development. but there was still a barrier to entry: at the turn of the century, there weren't many easy-to-use tools to create games with. you might pirate a copy of RPG Maker (or import it for the PS1 or something), but other than that, making games required an interest in computer science, or art… and even then, as we all know, people only started going to DigiPen in the last what, like 11 years to be BFAs? and video games were mainstream-ish back then, but they weren't on everyone's smartphone. going to school to get into the video games industry wasn't as much of a thing as it is today

this is all completely fine; this is the free market at work

cut to the chase and get to where we are today: video games are everywhere. most people have a device that can play them. no longer bound by the physical limitations of publishing, any game you make can be distributed online to anyone in the world. infinite learning resources online allow anyone with an Internet connection to learn how to make games, for free. more women than ever are in the video game industry. infinitely more games than ever are being targeted at girls and women, largely in the form of browser and mobile games. most girls and women still don't play AAA console games, but some do. as a result, AAA console games are largely targeted at boys and men, which are still the target demographic. they've matured a bit, they have cutscenes and mo-capped characters and faces and decent stories and emotional music and amazing graphics… but there's still plenty of boobs, guns, and explosions

this is all completely fine; this is the free market at work

* * *

now we understand why the video game industry is the way it is today, and – look at that! – it's not because of vile and horrible toxic masculinity among game developers (because really, the world needed more mean things to say about nerds). it's actually pretty fucking awesome. Microsoft and Sony are welcoming indie development on their platforms. tons of cool weird shit comes out on Steam every day. tons of even weirder cool shit comes out on itch.io every day. anyone can learn to make a simple video game. and not even one kind of game! RPG Maker for your JRPGs, Twine and Inform for your interactive fiction, Game Maker and Construct for just about anything, Unity and UE4 for when you want to take it to the next level… it's insane the amount of cool shit that people can learn on their own these days (HINT HINT DIGIPEN). minority representation in video games? you can't take three steps on itch.io before tripping over dysphoria simulators and weird sex shit that I don't fully understand but do fully support. it's awesome! and there's still room for good ol'-fashioned boys lookin' at boobs, guns, and explosions, because hey, that's what the majority of us like. something for everyone!

* * *

so where does Sarkeesian and FemFreq fit into all of this? well, they've gone from having this series of, like, manifesto videos to just doing regular game reviews, with their own political slant that I disagree with, so at least they realized that you can only make so many videos about how lazily women are portrayed in video games before you either run out of clickbaity scenes to capture video of, realize that video games have always been mostly targeted at young cis straight white American males (or both!), and quickly shift to doing something else instead.

like I said in my last post: it's horrifying to me that Quinn and Sarkeesian are the two most well-known contemporary women in video games. both actively fuel the flames of the anonymous Internet's endless idiotic hatred, cry about it, never are put in even the most remote bit of actual danger, but come out at the end as if they survived actual violence and not just a bunch of mean words.

neither makes games, and arguably both could unintentionally dissuade girls and young women from getting interested in video games at all (which is basically a prerequisite for making them)

who watches FemFreq other than angry males on the Internet? assuming that at least some amount of girls and women do, are they being drawn into the video game industry by FemFreq's videos? or are they being told that it's full of angry virgin neckbeards on the Internet who will rape you over voice chat and stalk you?

tl;dr FemFreq lives in a fantasy world where the video game industry could be what it is today without being largely targeted at young straight white cis American males, and thinks that complaining about it on the Internet is a good way to stir drama and profit from the resulting backlash (accurate!) and, assuming they're being honest with their stated opinions, will somehow cause video games to become more welcoming to girls and women (inaccurate!)

* * *

I was going to post this but in the time it took me to write this, sober up, proofread it, and almost post it, you wrote two more posts, so time to respond to those too:

>>3368

do you have a degree in marketing? do you actually know what you're talking about? or are you making shit up? because it sounds a lot like you're speculating and making a lot of shit up

maybe when you own a AAA game publisher you can start taking gambles like that, but when you're a publicly-traded company, you have a duty to your shareholders to do everything you can to make more money. this is the extent of my knowledge of economics, but apparently it's more than you know, judging by what you wrote. who do you think you are to suggest that corporations gamble tens of thousands of dollars or more on social issues? I'm not going to even begin to explain why this isn't something that large corporations are interested in. running a corporation from your armchair isn't helping anyone, and it makes you look like an idiot. I don't mean this as an insult: I truly mean that it makes you look incredibly foolish, and like you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what degree program you're in, but if you're *CS*, it's like saying "why doesn't someone just make a single data structure that is optimized for every use case?"

to put it another way: look, you have a great idea for running a company, why don't you go find some like-minded venture capitalists to start a game publisher focused on diversity instead of profit?

>>3370

I don't give a single shit about how much money Anita Sarkeesian, Jonathan McIntosh, Feminist Frequency in general, or the Prime Minister of New Zealand makes. the amount of money they are currently making could not have less of an effect on anyone's lives other than their own (and maybe their fans, I guess). you wasted a lot of time researching and typing that whole thing. none of that has anything to do with the fact that I, and many others, wholly disagree with their entire premise, with the exception of "hey c'mon female characters in video games could be a bit better". I personally believe that the state of characters in games in 2015 is pretty great. there's definitely room for more mature storytelling, but I think that, keeping in mind who the primary target audience of most video games is and WHY that is (for an explanation: reread this entire post and the one I wrote before it), games are doing pretty okay overall. it's definitely something to keep tabs on and critique is surely welcome, but it's not a platform you can base an entire website around

oh shit wait what FemFreq doesn't do videos about these major trope breakdowns anymore, and instead they do a lot of just straight-up video game reviews and such now? wow who could've seen that coming

none of this changes anything about my points: I believe Sarkeesian and Quinn are terrible role models for women in video games, but because they're loud, because they're women and we want to protect them, and because they're women and we want to do the right thing for equality, we prop them up as the most important contemporary women in video games, when any given female artist, programmer, writer, designer, or anything making even the shitiest of microtransaction-based browser games or whatever, should command infinite more respect than these two professional victims

>>Are they feeding into this vocal hatred? Yes, absolutely

>People keep saying this. I have yet to see a single shred of proof of it. I asked for proof upthread and got none. I'll ask for it again. Either source your quotes or quit trying to present your opinion as fact.

google: femfreq twitter

first result: https://twitter.com/femfreq

second result: "It’s so cute when MRAs and atheist dudes who clearly don’t play video games try to talk about video games." https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/621467859525328896

that was easy, I didn't even have to dig through her twitter feed. clearly this is something completely professional that should be tweeted about. clearly no vile anonymous Internet contingent could possibly, possibly respond to this with any vitriol

I submit that I am bored of typing this stupid bullshit and want to go do something fun instead so I apologize, I am not going to search for more tweets right now. perhaps tomorrow? hopefully I've provided enough content as is


b1b25f No.3373

>>3367

>So why, then, do game critics suddenly need to shut up and become game developers, instead of just critiquing work?

Because this isn't voting with your wallet. This is CATER TO ME OR I'LL GIVE YOU SUCH BAD PR YOU'LL BE SORRY. The reason people say to make games instead of bitching is because otherwise you're telling other people to do things the way you want them to under pain of a sort of social media backlash if you can kick one up.

If you don't like the way a restaurant does business, you give your business to someone else. You don't march into the kitchen and demand they do it your way.

>>3368

>Developers SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID TO have minorities as major players in their media

I do kinda agree with this in theory. The problem is when you get big stinks over not having enough brown people in 13th century Poland (Witcher 3) or cry that a game that was released half finished said they didn't have time to make female playable characters (Assassin's Creed Unity)

The problem is thanks to the odious push by PC culture to replace white people in media, any high profile brown people are going to be seen as a victory by the PC brigade, a fact reactionaries will bitch about and PC champions will rub in their face. By placing all this importance on the color of a character's skin they're only creating more divisiveness.

>This is why it's PARTICULARLY important that the AAA space starts being more inclusive: they can afford to do it.

No, they really can't. I think Nintendo is the only large game company in existence with a stockpile of money they can build a fortress on. Everyone else levereges their money into new ventures to keep the flow of money coming.

>Bobby Kotick isn't going to notice his Scrooge McDuck money vault is an inch lower than usual.

No, but his financiers are going to give him hell for it because that prospective capital was already being invested into other projects. Maaaaybe EA can handle this better than other companies due to the reliable income their sports titles produce but it's a near thing. Corporations don't spend money like people do.

>At the end of the day, MOST CONSUMERS DON'T CARE.

Yep. Most people don't give a shit that the protag is WHITEY MCBUZZCUT #10345-E. It doesn't stop the internet slapfights over race/sex, though.

>>3370

>A lot of people say that Sarkeesian is making 'money hand over fist

That's stupid. Though I would wonder where the $160000 monies she was given to make a video series went when she's been dragging her feet for years to finish it.

What she's getting is a lot more exposure than anyone in her position has any right to get and it's entirely because she's leveraged her professional victim status. You don't have to be one of the idiots who sent her death threats to get angry that people are listening to her entirely because she's crying about being a victim.

She got to make a speech to the Canadian government and was invited to a Google meeting and the freaking UN. Now supposedly the Google meeting was a placating gesture nobody at Google gave a single shit about and the UN is laughably inept and powerless but still.

Nobody cares what she has to say as a critic. Everyone cares that she was targeted. So that's really the sum of her value. A target. Proof that we need to restrict speech on the internet to protect people. And wouldn't you know it so many people in a position of power are willing to help her. Curious

>How do we do that, I wonder? I bet if games were more appealing to women, we'd get more women interested in the hobby

What gets me is we don't see the women who work in the industry proper celebrated much at all. Rather the idea now is to paint the industry as a horrific misogynist wreck that any woman would be crazy to want to get into. Who are the people painting this picture? It's not the so-called misogynists telling people that they hate women and to get the fuck out and stay out. It's people who see an industry that doesn't have an even split of men and women and decide that there must be some misogyny afoot. Where are the scores of people who worked deep in the AAA industry speaking out? Last time I read an article about a woman in the AAA industry speaking about sexism she basically said "there isn't any, really"

And now we need this big loud concerted effort to forcefully promote a new agenda in a field that is desperately trying to not give a shit about politics run by people who aren't actually part of the creative side of the industry. How do you think game designers who've worked in the field for decades are going to feel about the new position of Equality Manager looking over their shoulder at every decision they make so they don't inadvertently create something "hostile" to women?


b1b25f No.3374

>>3370

I'm going to add a little anecdotal evidence just for kicks. As well all know, anecdotal is the best kind (if you're a woman or minority)

My grandma worked at IBM waaaay back when. She had a technical position, not engineer exactly but not secretary either. It was a time when there were few women in the workplace, though not a time where such a thing was entirely uncommon.

Then there was a push for more women in the workplace.

Suddenly she had a bunch of female coworkers and it was great, she felt less alone in a male-dominated workplace.

But then she noticed coworkers, those she hadn't worked close to, started to treat her with disdain. It turns out when you hire for diversity, you don't hire for competency and it was assumed as "yet another" woman she wasn't equal to her coworkers. The idea spread that a woman in the workplace was hired more for her vagina than for her skills.

Is it wrong to assume that someone was hired for their vagina rather than their skills? Yes. Is pointing that out going to stop people? Hell no. That's what I'm worried about. There is real potential to make a work environment MORE hostile to women simply because there's a big obvious artificial push to add more to the workplace simply because "here's an office job that isn't a 50/50 male/female split"

In spite of my furious glowing hatred for all things social justice, I agree with the intent. I love my mother and siblings and don't consider them less than people because they're women. This just goes to show you how fucked up the message has become when people who agree with the ideas of a group can still hate the group itself due to attitude (seriously, I'm getting really tired of being insulted while I'm arguing the point) and tactics (twitter hatemobs and trying to get people fired for wrongthink is just as or maybe even worse than toothless death threats)


b1b25f No.3375

>>3372

>none of this changes anything about my points: I believe Sarkeesian and Quinn are terrible role models for women in video games, but because they're loud, because they're women and we want to protect them, and because they're women and we want to do the right thing for equality, we prop them up as the most important contemporary women in video games, when any given female artist, programmer, writer, designer, or anything making even the shitiest of microtransaction-based browser games or whatever, should command infinite more respect than these two professional victims

AAAAAAGH THIS

WOMEN WHO ACTUALLY MAKE VIDEOGAMES AND ARE TECHNICALLY PROFICIENT ARE IGNORED IN FAVOR OF SKILL-LESS PEOPLE WHO ARE FAMOUS BECAUSE PEOPLE HATE THEM.


962c6f No.3376

>>3373

>How do you think game designers who've worked in the field for decades are going to feel about the new position of Equality Manager looking over their shoulder at every decision they make so they don't inadvertently create something "hostile" to women?

AAAAAAGH THIS

https://github.com/nodejs/inclusivity/issues/9#issuecomment-156554098

whyyyyyyyyyyyyy


b1b25f No.3377

File: 1447823714982-0.jpg (61.98 KB, 638x507, 638:507, tale-of-tales-meltdown.jpg)

File: 1447823714985-1.jpg (40.71 KB, 1023x268, 1023:268, 1435095047116rfr9u.jpg)

>>3372

>look, you have a great idea for running a company, why don't you go find some like-minded venture capitalists to start a game publisher focused on diversity instead of profit?

Cause that don't end well.

Well for the company, I mean. I thought it was fucking hilarious. Tale of Tales devs posting on Twitter after the failure of Sunset to find an audience cause them to go bankrupt.


b1b25f No.3378

>>3376

Oh my god, I'm going to be sick

When will the bigots at Game Freak rename the ableist slur that the move Disable is?


962c6f No.3379

>>3377

developer and not publisher but you're absolutely right, I'd forgotten we actually had a real-life example of such a company

>>3378

also: before the USA had its problem with Mexican immigrants? the word "illegal" was never used for anything else. not even once.


b1b25f No.3380

>>3379

NOBODY IS ILLEGAL!

:^)


962c6f No.3381

dude DigiPen is totally going to have GAM teams write and turn in Codes of Conduct, like, next year, aren't they

fuck me

so glad I'm out


b1b25f No.3382

>>3381

The sort where the promise not to rape someone or the sort where they promise no "problematic" language?


962c6f No.3383

File: 1447826019059.jpg (123.68 KB, 480x320, 3:2, image001.jpg)

>>3382

the kind that contain language like

>We will not act on complaints regarding 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.

that's from GitHub's Code of Conduct they're promoting

here's the repo: https://github.com/todogroup/opencodeofconduct

here's the CoC with the quote in it: http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/#Open+Code+of+Conduct/abuse@todogroup.org

for additional fun, click here: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

read the first dozen or so posts, scroll to the end, see how it ended

I don't mean to sound like some kind of crazy open-source guy but like, what the fuck is this shit? how widespread is it?


962c6f No.3384

>>3383

(pic unrelated)


b1b25f No.3385

>>3384

Suddenly I want to install Gentoo

Is that weird?

Why are these people obsessed with language instead of intent? It's really fucking creepy


962c6f No.3386

File: 1447827150854.png (499.17 KB, 800x1000, 4:5, mgs2-repost.png)

>>3385

everybody wants to be a moral savior. everyone wants to be recognized for Doing The Right Thing. but instead of like, volunteering at a local homeless shelter or writing letters to your local congressmen, everyone just wants to sit on their phone, tablet, or macbook and lead moral crusades for dumb bullshit reasons. I am 100% aware of the irony of me writing this, too :P

it goes back to what I said like a million posts up, about tribes. it's just people forming tribes and fighting against other tribes over moral superiority and stupid bullshit. the fighting creates an outrage feedback loop and it goes on forever

reposting this again because it blows me away how fucking prophetic it was


b1b25f No.3387

>>3373

But late, but when people were bitching about the lack of female PCs in Ass Creed Unity I brought up how the PC of Ass Creed Liberty was a black woman

Apparently being on the PSV means it doesn't count because nobody has a PSV


795f1d No.3388

File: 1447838474244.jpg (108.2 KB, 960x540, 16:9, south-park-s19e05c07-the-o….jpg)

>>3386

>everybody wants to be a moral savior. everyone wants to be recognized for Doing The Right Thing. but instead of like, volunteering at a local homeless shelter or writing letters to your local congressmen, everyone just wants to sit on their phone, tablet, or macbook and lead moral crusades for dumb bullshit reasons.

Holy fuck, this.

I'm so tired of talking to people who think they're making a difference because they're "raising awareness" or learning the right pronouns or some bullshit. Everywhere around the world there are kids being fucking kidnapped and tortured, women who ACTUALLY don't have rights, and people whose lives are basically in the toilet from the moment they're born. It's nice that you're showing respect to France by changing your Facebook icon, but don't pretend for even a fucking second that it does anything to help them.

And it has nothing to do with "first world problems" or any shit like that. I'm just as petty as anybody else. I'll bicker about a character's hair color, I'll bitch about DigiPen's parking lot. It's human nature, things don't go our way and we want to vent. The difference is I'm not fucking delusional enough to think I'm solving some sort of problem when I share an article on Facebook.

It's all about validation, people want to convince themselves they're helping while doing as little work as possible, and more importantly, people want to convince themselves they're better than others. It's why I can't have a conversation about social justice shit without being told that my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not actively trying to fix the problem or because I'm male (which is baffling irony). It pisses me off because the only thing these people do is bitch about a game developer increasing a character model's breast size on Tumblr or try to fucking bully women out of the industry with this idea that every game developer wants to oppress them.

Some people are so fucking obsessed with being above the 'opposite team' and it makes it basically impossible to argue without being accused of either being an official registered club member for the enemy team or 'not helping enough.' And until these self-validated pricks learn that they're not making a fucking difference and bother to listen to anyone with a different opinion than them, none of this shit is going anywhere.


b1b25f No.3389

>>3388

Basically

The age of Instant gratification is more than just getting food and goods quickly.

And it's leading to more and more people HATING the other side. I mean you can barely hold a conversation or argument anymore without one side getting freaking triggered and turning into jabbering psychotics.


d6478f No.3394

>>3371

I like to think I'm being at least somewhat level-headed. I'm growing pretty damn weary of this whole discussion, though, and I'm pretty sure it's seeping into my writing. Apologies in advance if I do talk down; for what it's worth, I'm earnestly trying not to.

>>3372

This was originally a lot longer and went over your post in more depth, but I felt like it detracted from the point I'm trying to make. (That being said, it's still long.)

Here's the short version: We have a fundamental disagreement with Quinn and Sarkeesian's role in the industry that I don't think is resolvable in the least.

My hypothetical was very misguided (read: completely fucking retarded).

>Devs make games men like. In general, men like violence and are competitive. This is why, in general, video games are violent and competitive.

Sure, no argument there. A lot of the history of games as a men's hobby stems from early games (8/16-bit era) being advertised as "boy's toys" (because "girl's toys" are dolls and cooking sets, naturally). The marketing grew up with us, for better or for worse.

>Most women prefer story games

>Most women don't play AAA games

I have a request of you. Think about why these two statements are true. I'm not arguing they're false - you're right, they are totally 100% true statements.

Think about why

>Most men prefer violent/competitive games

is also true.

I don't really care if your answers are right or wrong, or if you think you're not qualified to form such an opinion. Hell, I don't even know if /I'm/ right or wrong and I am definitely not qualified to make an evaluation. I want you to have an opinion on this nonetheless.


d6478f No.3395

No, seriously, think about it. Please humor me.


d6478f No.3396

I imagine whatever answer you came up with falls into one of two categories (and if it doesn't, I'd love to hear your take on it.):

1) The Nature/Bio-Truths justification. "That's just the way women are."

2) The Nurture/Societal justification. "People are shaped by their environment."

You're a rational fellow, so I feel pretty safe in assuming you came to a similar conclusion to my own: it's a societal thing (and to be totally honest the only people I know who buy the bio-truths justification are high-octane "illuminati lizard jews control the world" sort of folk, which you're decidedly not).

I mentioned this a little earlier, but in the early ages of consumer gaming, it wasn't treated like a luxury electronic like it is now by marketing and ads - it was a boy's toy. GI Joes and Transformers and footballs and the NES - all targeted at boys. Barbies, Dollhouses, EZ-Bake Ovens - girl's toys. The current AAA space is the logical extension of that targeted marketing 20+ years in the future. Did some girls back then consume 'boy media'? Of course they did. Did some boys consume 'girl media'? Of course they did.

You get my point. A lot of media nowadays is still affected by gender roles codified /centuries/ ago, and that haven't been relevant in everyday life for the past 150 years or so. All this /stuff/ I've been railing against for the past 30-odd posts - the problem of underrepresentation and exclusiveness as game developers and game consumers - is really just a symptom of a much larger, grander societal problem concerning modern gender roles.

But.

Just because it's a symptom doesn't mean it's not worth trying to fix.

We as content creators are in the unique position where our actions weigh far, far greater than the actions of content consumers. And I don't mean that in the free-market vote-with-your-wallet sense. I mean that in the 'Making a difference in society' sense. Your average consumer can't make a difference. Your average dev /can/.

A developer who makes a relatively well-received game about their experiences with depression has made a difference. A developer who gives players the option to play as a male or female badass soldier is making a difference. Even the stupid fucking developer who spends their time writing diatribes on how making a difference is important on a site that historically has exactly zero interest in anything they're saying is making a difference (if you'll pardon me for being self-indulgent there).

Even if these differences are next to negligible, they're still important. Are all of them equally important? Fuck no. My diatribes are worth infinitely less than someone who's actively helping make a world the better place. Like volunteering at a homeless shelter, or writing letters to your local congressman. People are quick to condemn 'slacktivism', but there's a big difference between "1 like = $1 for this starving African child's medicine" and "I stand in solidarity with the French".

Companies exist to make a profit. But making a profit and making a difference are not mutually exclusive goals. In Blops3, there are prominent female characters in a military shooter! Sales for it are doing quite well. Treyarch is making a difference.

The Witcher 2 and 3 have a bunch of prominent, major female characters! CDPR is making a difference.

BioWare's writing has become total trash in the past 10 years or so, but they've always been quite good about representation of all sorts. BioWare is making a difference.

Left 4 Dead 2 and The Walking Dead have great use of a predominantly black cast. Valve and Telltale are making a difference.

World of Warcraft does an alright job of writing believable characters for fictional civilizations that have obvious real-world analogues. Blizzard is making a difference.

Bayonetta has a female protagonist that isn't ashamed to use her sexuality as a weapon. Platinum is making a difference.

Is all they're doing good? Of course not. No one is infallible. But /even the smallest difference matters/.


877bb7 No.3401

>>3396

Wow. You not only replied to yourself (don't say its someone on the same IP, those post times don't lie), you wrote shitty counter arguements for the other guy, then replied to your own made up counter arguements. I don't have a ball in this "fight", but maaaaybe its time to go do something else for a bit?


962c6f No.3402

>>3394

>>3395

>>3396

>You're a rational fellow, so I feel pretty safe in assuming you came to a similar conclusion to my own: it's a societal thing

I don't have enough data to reach that conclusion, and I'm not sure how you have enough data to reach that conclusion

in my opinion, the existence of gender dysphoria and trans people proves that there are differences between men and women. well, I guess it depends on how you look at gender dysphoria:

is gender dysphoria a societal thing? or an inherently internal mental thing?

from what I understand, it's probably both, but there is at least an internal, mental component of it. like, even if we lived in an idealistic utopian society where men and women are treated completely as equals, gender dysphoria would still occur. I have never experienced gender dysphoria and only have spoken to those who have, so my perspective may be incorrect

either way: I don't see the problem with encouraging young people to do whatever they want, and figure out what works best for them. I think that, in middle-to-upper-class American society, this is pretty much exactly where we are. my parents didn't give a shit about my pursuit of programming and game design. I developed into where I am today by interacting with people over the Internet, without thought of gender, sex, race, religion, etc.

I do not believe that artists have a societal obligation to use their art to influence peoples' decisions and lifestyles. I believe that artists totally have the ability to do so, and that's one of the great things about art, but I do not agree that, just because I believe something, everyone else should believe the same thing. even if I have an entire moral and ethical justification for my beliefs!

my mom is a super-hardcore born-again Catholic. my family's always been slightly more Catholic than the minimum-effort "Easter and Christmas" types, but religion has never really been a huge part of my life, really. well, my mom, whom I love very dearly, has now sort of become that special breed of judgemental Catholic who thinks gay marriage is a tragedy and that anyone who isn't enlightened enough to see her faith the way she sees it is to be pitied and/or persuaded to become more Catholic

I can't stand that shit

it's not even the religious aspect of it. my religious views are incredibly up in the air. I'm more agnostic than atheist, but that's entirely beside the point. I just can't stand it when people force their views on others

which is why I don't have a problem with you making your games the way you want to, but I cannot fucking stand people who tell others how they should make their games

when Polytaku ran stories about how much of a tragedy it was that none of the three playable protagonists of Grand Theft Auto V were female, I thought I was crazy because so many people agreed with them. they can do what the fuck they want! they don't have a fucking obligation to do anything! that's art! that's how art has worked since art was first invented!

when Giant Bomb hired two new staff members and they were both straight cis white American males, some very vocal "feminists" lost their shit and tried to tell them who to hire. what the fuck? what the fuck?

no… what the fuck?

who the fuck are you, random person on the Internet, to tell a corporation, much less an individual in charge of hiring, who they should and shouldn't hire, based on inherent physical qualities?

"but I want their coverage to be more diverse"

then go and start your own diverse video game website! the world does not cater to you!

if you want to use your position as content creator to further agendas you agree with, that's awesome and I applaud you for doing so. but encouraging others to do so just reeks of the same kind of imperialism that everyone wants to shame white people for


962c6f No.3403

and this all ties into exactly what I was saying, and >>3389 and >>3388 followed up on

people who create content, at least in part, to further agendas?

completely commendable

people who don't create content, but sit back on the sidelines and tell others how to because it makes them feel morally superior?

horrible individuals who I don't want to interact with

it's super easy to make anything on the Internet. start a YouTube channel. start streaming in Twitch. make a game with Game Maker or Unity. write a story on fanfiction.net. post your art on tumblr and DeviantArt. make a web app and host it for free on Heroku

I have done all of these things and more, and I'm only 24

we live in the fucking future

you can make whatever you want online. if you don't know how, google it, the Internet will tell you how

people need to go out and make shit and quit bitching about others who already are


d6478f No.3404

>>3401

Haha, what? Do I really need to put a link before literally everything I post? All three of those posts are me arguing my point. 8ch doesn't let me make big posts like >>3372 for whatever goddamn reason.

>>3402

I was more referring to gender roles insofar as "The man is the breadmaker; the sports player; the soldier" and "The woman is the housewife; the tailor; the maid".

Stuff like autism/gender dysphoria is a huge mystery, and I agree it's probably mostly genetic - it's a difference in physiology, after all.

>People telling others how to make their games

I agree. It's misguided at best, and outright harmful at worst. It's not just the vocal, extreme minority feminists, either - a lot vocal, extreme minority gamer types love to shout that same rhetoric. No one side is completely innocent.

I stand with developers. But I also stand with the consumer and their right to critique. I will always defend X Company's right to make a totally non-diverse cast to the end, and at the same time defend those consumers who wish their game had more diversity.

Once again, there's a big difference between "You game SHOULD be more diverse" and "Your game MUST BE more diverse.".

>>3402

>>3403

It's great that we do live in this age where it's easier than ever to become a content creator.

So go out and encourage people to create content!

Spread the word and be supportive, instead of just finding something to hate on.

Message Quinn! Tell her you'd like to see her making cool experimental toys like she used to. Email Sarkeesian and respectfully tell her what you dislike about her series from your perspective. Go on Twitter /right now/ and tweet at your favorite indie dev telling them what you like about their work. But don't tell them to /stop/. Even if you disagree with them, or hate their work. Their content is just as valid as yours and mine.

Tale of Tales. If you don't recognize the name, you probably recognize their work: The Path. Graveyard. Bientot l'Ete. Hardly games by any definition of the word. Highly caustic to criticism. Recently ran out of money, currently finishing up a Kickstarter for some new thing that just barely squeaked past its goal.

As a consumer, I hate their work. As a developer, I hate them and their anti-consumer rhetoric. And yet I'll /still/ defend them to the death to do what they do, even though I hate it.

Who are we to gatekeep?


962c6f No.3405

>>3404

I'm really confused about this approach you're taking with me now

you're just taking my argument and turning it on me, but like, it doesn't work

>Spread the word and be supportive, instead of just finding something to hate on.

that's what I'm doing. that's why I'm not upvoting and posting in /r/KotakuInAction

>Message Quinn! Tell her you'd like to see her making cool experimental toys like she used to.

what? I don't care about her and her success. she can do what she wants, even if it's "make a huge asshole out of herself". I think she sucks, I think she's a lame person, I think she's squandered her creative potential… but I wasn't any kind of personal fan of her or anything, I just thought she had some cool ideas. if she wants to leave game development behind because she gets more of a kick out of being a victim, that's entirely up to her. I just think it's pretty lame, and it's terrible that she gets credit for being a "female developer" when the thousands of female developers who actually… y'know… develop things (other than controversy)… don't

>Email Sarkeesian and respectfully tell her what you dislike about her series from your perspective.

again, FemFreq can do what the hell it wants. I think their opinions are dumb and wrong, but they have the right to have them. why should I try and change their views?

>Go on Twitter /right now/ and tweet at your favorite indie dev telling them what you like about their work.

I do, sometimes!

>But don't tell them to /stop/. Even if you disagree with them, or hate their work. Their content is just as valid as yours and mine.

I would never tell someone to stop creating stuff. where did you get this idea? nothing I've posted here alludes to anything like that

>As a consumer, I hate their work. As a developer, I hate them and their anti-consumer rhetoric. And yet I'll /still/ defend them to the death to do what they do, even though I hate it.

>Who are we to gatekeep?

dude I seriously don't know what the hell you're talking about. I never implied that anyone's work was less valid than anyone else's; quite the contrary

like… if you have any actual arguments to raise against any points I've made, by all means feel free to raise them, but don't put words in my mouth and then spend half of your post addressing them


84a5a1 No.3406

There's actually a term for when having too much awareness of a subject hurts it: Narcotizing Dysfunction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotizing_dysfunction

Basically, this theory states that humans are lazy, and will substitute actually doing something about a subject with knowing a lot about it. I've seen it in action, when I used to volunteer at a non-profit.

>>3396

Nature vs nurture is hardly a solved debate on any aspect of human life, however, there do seem to be some distinct difference between male and female behavior throughout history. We can talk about centuries of "patriarchy", or we can talk about millennia…and go back roughly 5000 years to the beginning of human civilization.

Rulers in Egypt were largely male. I could find a list of 14 females who may possibly have served as Pharaoh OR Regent. 14 female rulers across over 3000 years.

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/ancientqueens/ss/Female-Pharaohs.htm#step2

The kings of Sumeria were almost entirely male. On the appropriately titled "Sumerian King List", only a single female appears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List

A search into Chinese history led me to what appears to be a pretty comprehensive list of Female rulers dating before 1000 BC:

http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/Womeninpower000.htm

You'll notice only a single female Chinese ruler during this time.

Why is all this important? Well, where the hell did the "Patriarchy" come from? These are cultures separated by thousands of miles of harsh terrain. It's seen in pretty much all major ancient cultures that men are the rulers. There are relatively few exceptions…namely, Crete, although the most well known Minoan ruler was a man, King Minos.

There's also evidence to suggest that in pre-history, during our hunting and gathering times, the vast majority of hunters were male. In a society where coming back with food was everything, and a tribe would live or die over whether they found something to eat, women were the minority of hunters.

So, we can argue about why that is. It's possible it was decided that women are more valuable and must be kept safe, because a tribe can survive with only one male but without women it is lost, but I would submit that it's largely because men are more aggressive.

In ancient civilizations, men fought other men. And yes…sometimes women to. There were female warriors, but they were the exception rather than the rule.

And today, we sit in front of our tv's and blow stuff up. Who wants to blow stuff up? Men, boys…and yes, some women too, but nowhere near the same level. Women just don't want violent video games on the same level, regardless of gender inclusion. Anita Sarkeesian herself doesn't want these violent games.

Well I fucking do. I want blood and boobs and explosions. I want a game where I can fly around the galaxy blowing up aliens, robots, and banging a hot blue alien. I want a game where I can play as a meathead and have a chainsaw on my gun. I want to play a game where I'm running around killing the corrupt clergy of Renaissance era Rome.

I am the target demographic.

Anita Sarkeesian is not.

And yeah, there are women who want to play these games as well. And yeah, we should do what we can to make them feel included, because that's awesome, and I think most men at this school want more of them to play games.

But they are not the target demographic of a AAA game.

You want me to make a game for women on a AAA budget? I don't even have a remote idea of what that would look like. Seriously, tell me. I want to get more women interested in gaming, but making Dead Space have a female lead isn't going to cut it…women won't run out and buy it at the same rate men have been all these years.


d6478f No.3410

>>3405

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. You brought up a few points that you briefly touched on, and I asked that you think about them critically.

I'm largely done arguing talking points. I could post Quinn tweets and FemFreq IRS statements all day and all I'd really end up achieving is wasting both our time.

I'm tired of making it a 'me versus you' or 'us versus them' thing, because it isn't. We're all devs here. I wouldn't go as far as to say we're all /gamers/, but we're definitely all people who enjoy games to some degree - we wouldn't be at this fucking school otherwise. Most importantly, we're all /human/. It's hypocritical of me to be going for the throat when we're on the same team, so to speak.

I want you guys to understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't necessarily agree with me. I'd like you to know why I say what I say in terms of its effect on our hobby and our society as a whole, even though in the cosmic scale of things it doesn't really matter.

>>3406

>Patriarchy and gender roles

Disclaimer: I am not an expert nor do I claim to be an expert on the history of gender roles; most everything I say is pure speculation (if that wasn't obvious enough already).

A lot of it comes from traditional hunter-gatherer roles, I'm sure. And while a lot of bio-truths are complete baloney (stuff like "Women like pretty colors because historically they gathered berries, which are brightly colored"), you won't find a soul in the world that will argue that testosterone helps muscle development and aids in energy management and other factors that are beneficial for a hunter-gatherer or a farmer.

However, we've moved on as a society past that point for a /long/ time now - as recently as the advent of 'modern' civilization (The late 1800s, or thereabouts - the Industrial Revolution and the rise of capitalism/consumer culture), and honestly there's a fine argument that it's been unnecessary from a survival standpoint from a lot further back than that. Just look at Crete, or other gynocentric cultures like many of the Native American tribes (mostly members of the Iroquois, interestingly).

In the modern age, women are equals to men in all but physicality, and even in that regard the lines are closer than they ever have been historically.

To me, at least, it doesn't make sense that we still hold on to these roles that have been outdated for generations. That's why I say what I say, and do what I do. I'm not going to topple /anything/ by myself. Hell, I honestly think we'll achieve post-scarcity before we achieve post-gender (but I do believe we'll achieve both in our lifetimes). But any difference is a small one. And if what I do ends up helping only one person - introducing them to this hobby of mine, or getting them started with developing their own - then it's a success in my book.

>Making a AAA game for women

That's not at all what I've been saying. My point is we should try to help move society toward a mutually beneficial state by making a difference in our work. This includes being more inclusive and having greater representation and diversity in games.

I'm not saying "I want Activision to greenlight a $2 billion Call of Duty: Girls Edition". That's ridiculous for all the reasons you've said.


962c6f No.3411

>>3406

>>3410

>I could post Quinn tweets and FemFreq IRS statements all day and all I'd really end up achieving is wasting both our time

most definitely, especially because I've already stated that I have zero interest in either. I don't know what posting either of those things would prove. you've still yet to explain to me how either of those women should be noteworthy in any way, aside from being victims of harassment to the point of making careers out of it. posting tweets or IRS statements is not going to change that

>I want you guys to understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't necessarily agree with me. I'd like you to know why I say what I say in terms of its effect on our hobby and our society as a whole, even though in the cosmic scale of things it doesn't really matter.

as long as you agree that:

1. works of art cannot be inherently harmful to society (as long as no living creatures are harmed in the process of creating it)

2. artists should be free to create whatever they want to create

3. artists are not obligated to use their works of art to further political agendas (but may do so if they wish)

4. all art doesn't have to have all humans as its target audience

, then there's nothing else that needs to be discussed here, I think

if I'm playing around with Unity and I make a game where a spaceship shoots asteroids, I don't have to shoehorn in some greater societal message about the underprivileged before I release it to the Internet

if I, as a male, write a female character into one of my games, I can write them however I wish. I don't have any responsibility to make them one way or another. I don't have to rewatch all of FemFreq's videos and make sure that it doesn't fit into any of their tropes. I should probably write all of my characters well if I want my game's story to be taken seriously, and, as someone who doesn't do a lot of writing and doesn't know a lot about women, I should probably get some other people to look at my writing before I release my game, but I don't have to if I don't want to

if I make a game where the player character is an assassin and can kill anyone in the game, and I want to set one level of my game in a strip club, there's no reason why anyone should make a big deal out of me allowing the player character to murder virtual strippers as well. (if I made you lose points for killing everyone except the strippers, well, that would be weird, and then you could call me out on that)

art doesn't have to be political. sometimes people make things because they're fulfilling a creative desire. telling people that the work they made is bad and wrong because it's "status quo" and not "progressive" is absurd

if I want to make a fighting game where half of the characters are women with prominent breasts, and you can use the DualShock 4 to shake their breasts, and that sort of thing doesn't appeal to you… that's cool. don't buy it. I can assure you that at least some contingent of society does want that, because the Dead or Alive series has been going on for this long. and no, shaking virtual breasts with a DualShock 4 neither makes people rape women nor… not hire them… or whatever it is that "misogyny in video games" is supposed to do. [trigger warning: gamergate talking point:] not all men are like the male character in Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey, or other romance novels

I completely agree that using games as a way of conveying political messages is extremely powerful and really cool when done well… but I disagree that every developer has some kind of ethical, moral, or societal responsibility to do that


b1b25f No.3420

File: 1448009240728.png (611.56 KB, 807x611, 807:611, CBl08lvVEAI1Rst.png)

>>3411

>if I, as a male, write a female character into one of my games, I can write them however I wish. I don't have any responsibility to make them one way or another. I don't have to rewatch all of FemFreq's videos and make sure that it doesn't fit into any of their tropes.

Yeah we're running into the Galbrush problem

Where men can be written whatever, but female characters have to reflect on the creator's idea of all women everywhere

I don't care what you might think that disproves this argument. But just look at the picture and imagine for a second. What's the one sex and race character combination nobody is allowed to complain about in regards to being a terrible/worthless/broken/crazy person?

>>3411

>not all men are like the male character in Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey

Abusers dressed up at sexual icons?

Seriously, those guys are really fucking creepy and it's weird that they're so popular among women.


84a5a1 No.3421

>>3410

I've been struggling for a while with how to respond this. Whether women are "equal" (whatever the fuck that means) or not to men is irrelevant. Testosterone makes men, on average, more aggressive. No amount of "inclusion" is going to change that more men than women play Call of Duty, Assassins Creed, and Gears of War. AAA studios have their audience, and it's men.

If you want to change that, you need to come up with real solutions. Complaining about a game not having any female leads isn't a solution, because 99% of the people purchasing the games don't care. My problem with the current set of arguments is that they aren't arguing that companies think about how they are portraying women, they're DEMANDING better representation.

So, do we as an industry need to think about how we are portraying women and other minorities? Yeah, of course.

But we don't need some crazy person crying sexism every time a game has a sexy female character.




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