/gsg/ - Grand Strategy General

>>2162
Go with that one.

>>2162
Greece's commie flag

Posting to let you know that I'm watching this intensely, Liang guy

Today I was thinking on the origin of socialism/anarcho-liberalism. I have long been considering to actually fix the events to always come from the same country, with unique text to talk about the actual fathers of the ideology instead of just saying what it is.

As for the actual ideologies themselves… I was considering having Burgundy and Germany being the origins of anarcho-liberalism and socialism, but I'm not sure which should go with which. Also, I'm not sure if they should just be the source of everything, as they've kinda been on center stage in European politics for the last half century.

The idea was, though, to have the two ideologies come from them because of their revolutionary history. Germany kept the Revolution alive, and thus may be the proponent of further innovation in liberalism. But, their revolutionary spirit might be dampened by just… the day to day operations of being a state. They succeeded, after all. Burgundy, meanwhile, is still an absolute monarchy, suppressing any liberal movements to make sure they don't suffer the same fate as the Bavarian monarch. With their leftward thinking leaders kept underground, they will keep going extremely left and revolutionary, having ideological breaks with the "complacent" Germans. The radical left of the Germans, marginalized by liberalism turning into conservatism, might see the influence of the government as anti-revolutionary. Socialism/anarcho-liberalism might also emerge from a split between more bourgeois proponents of the Revolution and actual lower class people.

I dunno, just putting ideas out there. I'm not all too sure how much is going to be used, I'm just putting out ideas.

>>2163
>>2166

The debate rages on.

>>2171

Thanks! Sorry to not really release all that much, though.

>Maybe loss of international prestige if the Liang try and preserve it?

In addition to loss of international pretige, decrease in militancy/conciousness if status quo. Increase if you adopted western ideal.

We really can't tell how BILLIONS (?) of Chinese will react to that change even though they are used to change as you have stated. There will still be dissent/support since they are numbering in billions.

>>2174
No, keep the baltic states, but have Lithunia or Pruthenia have cores on them.

>>2178

Uh… Millions, not billions. Not even modern China is plural billions. Plus, I imagine it was an upper class thing more than anything, but yeah, militancy does make sense. Especially since the Liang might not be as used to bowing to Westerners, but that might depend on how the Tea War goes.

I'll have another post on that soon.

>>2203

Why so, on the cores? Lithuania is like the third most populated Baltic state, only ahead of Estonia, and most of their empire was in Belarus before Poland attacked them. Pruthenia and Lithuania both served as pretty autonomous vassals to the Polish throne for a while, while Courland and Estonia were left to their own devices for a long while.

Also, there is the founding of the United Baltic Duchy for all four, so… If the Lithuanian thing won the vote, they could have formed it by tolerating Latvian/Estonian and accepting Pruthenians as well, or something.

>>2285

Whoops, forgot the name. Does it even matter?

Sorry for the tl;dr. Probably my stupid ranting, anyways.

Why is Fusang culture (yan, I think) not accepted as a Chinese culture like beifaren or nanfaren?

I'm playing as Fusang, retaking China. I'm in the negative hundreds for colonial power once I've taken a decent chunk of the mainland, and there's literally no way to convert to state because there's too many pops for immigration to have any sort of dent. Shouldn't Fusang be included in the scramble for the mandate of heaven, given that they're basically culturally and ethnically identical to China proper? Maybe a choice for an event to fire, having Fusang's monarchs claim that they are the rightful inheritors to the throne of China.

Or is there something different you've envisioned for Fusang? I don't know.

Also, I think it'd be interesting if New World mechanics were more fleshed out, with a few more scripted flavor events. For example, border wars between Fusang, Mexico and Riverland. Or bipartite annexation of Ardoise between Mexico and Riverland, a la Poland in WWII. I think there's already the Borealis annexation, and I don't know how feasible it is to mod, but perhaps Fusang tries to meddle with that transfer of sovereignty and gains cores/claims on the westernmost part of that territory - like how Texas' annexation was in part precipitated by an influx of American immigrants.

Considering that the Gold Rush occured in what is in this mod Fusang's territory, event chains related to that for Fusang. Maybe an influx of European-descended prospectors drives the old-blooded Chinese settlers into a xenophobic frenzy, and you can choose to either embrace them for prestige with militancy malus, and perhaps also a negative modifier to assimilation, or reject them for militancy malus and increase in consciousness, and loss of prestige.

Maybe also Mexico trying to push their borders with Fusang into California as well. Right now, everything seems really static, and Riverland ends up blobbing into Amerikan Free State with Ardoise 90% of the time, with Mexico, Borealia, Fusang and Missisippi pratically going untouched.

There could be some sort of "manifest destiny event" which fires for North American nations so that they had CBs to conquer their neighbors maybe? Right now it's very tranquil compared to Europe, even though culturally they're even more balkanized and should be prone to conflict(Brits, Dutch, Norwegians, and even the Chinese).

I just thought of a few ideas for immigration as well.

During the Meiji Restoration there was some violence and instability in Japan. The Japanese colonized Hokkaido in this time as well, and some defeated forces of the Tokugawa Shogunate formed the Republic of Ezo in Hokkaido.

Perhaps there could be a chain of events triggered for Fusang when Japan first begins westernization, bringing in an influx of Japanese immigration to the northern parts of their territory? I'd envision just humble fishermen and peasants displaced by instability in Japan coming to the New World to eke out a frugal but peaceful existence. They might add 5% pop to a province as Japanese, or something like that.

The kicker is that when Japan westernizes fully, or when there's a certain threshold of provinces with Japanese population of >40% it triggers demand for formation of a Japanese state in northern Fusang, like the Republic of Ezo.

Also, similar events for when Liang collapses, though without the independence. Perhaps instead loss of prestige as Fusang's comparatively less westernized mainland cousins populate. Also maybe the pops added by these events are only 5% literate.

>>2321

In order…

The thing is, the Yan and the mainlander Chinese are not culturally and ethnically identical. While there hasn't been a ton of time for cultural drift, only a bit more than two centuries, they have been entirely isolated from the mother country by the Pacific Ocean. While you could say that the European colonies were isolated by the Atlantic, it's a shorter/less harrowing journey than from China to California. The expense of sending colonists literally bankrupted the ruling dynasty, one of the larger contributions to the formation of the Liang.

As such, as soon as there was a sizeable, sustainable population… The Later Shang collapsed and the colonies were left without governmental input, however sparse it was before, from home. The monarch of Fusang is just the line descended from the last imperially-appointed governor. The Liang made noises about them resubmitting to Nanjing (the Liang kept the Shang capital for about a half-century), but there was no real attempt to take them back; even all the gold in Fusang (the city) wouldn't recoup the losses of an expedition. The Liang still did ship over "colonists" like undesireables and exiled people, though.

Oh, and because the colonists sent to Fusang were a huge mix of people from across all of China (not to mention all the words that came from Native Americans), Mandarin and the Yan dialect aren't mutually intelligible anymore. To be fair, this applies to several dialects of Chinese and Mandarin currently. If you go to Shanghai or Ningbo and try to listen in, it's like an entirely different language. (The more liberal/western elements of the Fusang are also considering adopting a Latin alphabet.)

I do plan to add more stuff like that to North America, but it all depends on what I have in mind when I code, and plus I'm still not entirely sure on the current setup; I could increase Fusang's population and decrease the Amerikaner population. Oh, and Ardoisie has an event chain about maybe joining the AFS, seeing as there was a slight majority for the New Wallonians (the Ardoisien) to stay independent and the New Flemish/Hollanders (now the Amerikaners) accepted it on the provision that there would be another, final vote in 20 years. The Amerikaners figured that the very low population would lead to a poor and crappy place to live and thus the people would want the resources of the AFS.

I did plan to have events about the gold rush, actually. Right now, the Yan get a malus to assimilation and immigrant attraction, but things like the gold rush would lead to westernization initiatives (aforementioned Latin alphabet, etc). It would be a contest between westernizers and conservatives who merely want to keep trading with the west; the Fusang have been dealing up close with Euros for 200 years now, after all.

Border disputes are the name of the game. The border areas of Mexico swapped hands between the English and the Fusang for a while. There's been several proposals between New Amsterdam and Mexico City about divvying up Fusang land.

Yeah, I actually got an anon that gave an outline of Manifest Destiny scenarios for every North American state. I never got to implementing it, though, because I wanted to make sure of the NA setup and then I lost the outline.

>>2322

The problem is, you have to target like… pops with specific provinces when you move them. I mean, I could definitely set target areas in Fusang cities, but moving pops by event is very clunky. A Japanese minority in the north might be cool, though, but I haven't decided what's up with Japan. I started changing them entirely with the latest update before I stopped.

And yeah, Liang pops heading to the Fusang would be good. I'm not sure how to weight immigration like that, or if it's even possible, though.

>>2174
Regarding this, I'd say you could expand Lithuania to the south, but definitely keep the others as they are.

The unfinished dev version that you have in the OP crashes when you click on the release nations tab.

>>2568

That has been a consistent bug since the beginning of the mod. It's inconsistent, some nations crash on release nations and others don't. I have no fuckin' clue, man.

So, the Tea War.

In real life, there was a problem for the British. They had nothing the Chinese wanted, while the Brits desired the tea only the Chinese could make. There was thus a trade imbalance, where the British were sending tons of silver into Canton. How did they solve this? The British addicted the Chinese to opium from India, eventually turning the trade imbalance on its head as more silver went out of Canton to buy opium than went in buying tea. Qing attempts to ban the sell of opium amongst other things led to the Opium War and the reveal of how weak militarily the Chinese were.

Another way the British attempted to solve this problem was what would be considered today as corporate espionage. They stole several thousand tea plants and seeds and hired several Chinese tea growers to start their own tea plantation in Assam in India. While this Assam tea was inferior for quite some time, it eventually began to outproduce China, even becoming the preferred tea (see: Darjeeling, in India).

Now, look at the map in the OP. Bengal and Assam are controlled by Tibet. Also the British don't even have maritime presence in the Indian/Pacific Oceans (though I'm considering changing this. Also the plan is to have Burgundy conquer parts of India).

Now, my idea was for the Europeans to be disgruntled with this unfavorable tea balance, as Europeans are wont to do. The Liang/feudatories could just give away tea by the shipful to get weapons and ammo (because the ingame countries run out of supplies really fucking fast and go effectively bankrupt), and after the war, the Europeans have less cheap tea and now have ports on the Chinese coast, like a little island off of the Pearl River delta called Hong Kong or Weihai. With the Liang (or the victor) choosing to try and return to the old status quo of limited trade, it may spark the Tea War, where the Chinese can be revealed as incompetent or maybe even beat the Europeans.

However… This does lead to a bit of an issue for me. Who would fight the Tea War against the Chinese? Nobody really powerful has much presence in Asia… There's the Dutch, the Spanish, and the Italians and these guys are second rate at best. Should I give the British/Burgundians/Germans ports along the way and a presence in Asia? While the Germans are probably too new to give them anything, the British and Burgundians just didn't expand that much out of Europe in EU3. The British had a focus on the New World but apparently just entirely ignored Asia.

But, yeah. Opinions? Ideas?

Also I've been trying to port Liang's setup (basically, just cores and pops) to NNM but I'm making little progress. It just keeps crashing no matter what.

>>2617
Did you copy all the culture, country and history files?

>>2616
How about a coalition of minor powers that trade with China and eventually challenge it for control of the tea market.

>>2620

Yeah. The NNM files don't apparently like that all that much. I'll have to go over it a bit more carefully later…

If anyone wants to try their hand, my version of Liang is in the OP.

>>2629

That would seem to be the best solution, I just wonder if the AI would ever actually manage to invade. Of course, the problem of China being the only source of tea is still there; nobody else has any idea how to grow it and make tea as a drinkable thing. I'm actually going to go through and change all of the tea-producing provinces outside of China to something else.

I'm considering giving Bissau, Lourenzo Marques (the state, not just the port), and Pondicherry to the Burgundians.

For the Brits… They have a bit of the Cape Coast already. I'm considering giving them Aden and Singapore as well. Considering the Dutch have all of Ceylon, perhaps Goa as well? I'm just not sure if Aden to the Cape Coast is close enough for naval supply range, as that's around half of Africa.

Anything else I should consider changing to make Asia a bit less untouched by Euro hands? I could maybe hand the Brits Bijapur or something, since it's just a minor state right now that only has a purpose of getting annexed by Dravidistan. Maybe I can make them a British puppet instead, and their Doctrine of Lapse equivalent causes a war between the British and the Dravidians.

Oh, and actually, India is ruled entirely by Muslims at this point except for Tibet/Nagpur/Beroda. Dravidistan is ruled by foreign Muslims, hence the name of the country having a -stan.

You know, I was researching revolutionary movements in late 19th/early 20th century Qing and Sun Yat-sen and something I noticed was the early on Japanese support of Chinese revolutionaries in the spirit of legitimate Pan-Asian cooperation. The Japanese thought that having westernized nations in Korea and China could act as a counterweight to western influence/control in the region. Miyazaki Toten, a Japanese man, was one of Sun Yat-sen's biggest supporters, for example; Umeya Shokichi, a movie producer, funded Sun.

This spirit of cooperation died out in real life, though, obviously. That idea was popular when Japan was a potential course on the European table; as the Japanese began to sit at the table, having a strong competitor in China became much less appealing. Even before the Japanese looked to carve up China, the great prime minister Ito Hirobumi refused to let Miyazaki and Sun use Taiwan as a resupplying base for Chinese revolutionaries out of a sense of pragmatism; the other Great Powers could see this as an attempt to grab more land/influence in China.

But, I digress back to the topic of this thread. If Japan was a supporter of Chinese westernization early on, if the Liang actually westernized, could the two stay friendly to each other in a Pan-Asian Coalition? I guess it depends on how I decide Japan goes through their own efforts to westernize, but Liang's relation with Japan can be something important.

Of course, this also brings up the topic of Chinese Revolutionaries… Possibly without the bloat and rot of the Qing, would there be numerous supporters of a Chinese Republic?

The Liang are a bit younger than the Qing (1649 vs 1644), but the Liang have also interacted with Europeans more, fighting several wars with the Spanish in Indonesia. This, along with the de facto military dictatorship as the Liang Emperor was an effective vegetable, has helped Liang stay somewhat militarily westernized. The Qing were still using the repeating Zhuge crossbow in the First Sino-Japanese War, while there were vigorous efforts to replace all weapons with muskets in the 18th century. Cavalry archers still aren't entirely gone, but they are skirmishers, not a mainline force.

The military advancement was also helped by the military line of the Liang Emperors themselves. Remember, the (posthumous) first Emperor of the Liang was a general who protected the last Shang Emperor, and his sons continued the tradition and started the Liang line. They created a military administration to make sure that all troops are well-supplied with the correct armament and supplies and such, reducing attrition. Of course, that was rendered a little moot by the Feudatory War as all the talented men in that area were moved out of the Imperial Capital, so everything was a mess, really.

Uh… Sorry, that was a bit of a rambling post, but I guess this stream of consciousness thinking is what the thread is for.

>>2744

Oh, I thought of something right as I clicked reply. Considering more solid Hwanyeong Korean claims/the larger Korean population in Manchuria, perhaps that Pan-Asian collaboration could lead to a breakdown where Liang and Korea/Japan square off? The Hwanyeong Kingdom did control Manchuria for a good, long while; from about the 1500's to the mid-1750's when the Liang kicked them out.

>>2744
>if the Liang actually westernized, could the two stay friendly to each other in a Pan-Asian Coalition?

The Pan-Asian Coalition would depend on how much of a threat Europe appears to be. I think that at the least the Liang would ignore Japan and use Pan-Asianism to create puppets in Indonesia and maybe ""protect"" Indochina, while at the most you would have conflicts over whether China or Japan is more suited to repel the Western threat.

A strong Chinese state that still considered themselves the center of the world would never accept a coalition where they weren't the leader, and unless Japan ends up with a less expansionist government they probably wouldn't accept a subordinate role. Ultimately I think it would depend on whether or not one of the countries can establish themselves as a competent defense against the West that the rest of Asia can rally behind.

>>2773
>Though, if the relatively competent Liang armies actually beat off the Europeans, what would lead to an impetus to westernize?

If one of the brothers saw the advantages of westernization and took the initiative himself he could show the rest of the states the power of a fully westernized army and force them to follow in his footsteps.

Plus who knows, maybe one of the states has the bad luck of choosing Germans as their advisers and trade partners and imports some troublesome ideas down the road.

>>2839

Oh! I originally thought you were talking about the Liang's first two emperors, the brothers, and was about to correct you about how they weren't the ones to westernize anything, but you bring up something I actually didn't consider.

While the Liang probably wouldn't bring in western advisers out of pride, it would totally make sense for the feudatory states to do so. While three of the four brothers are also prideful assholes, they're also varying shades of pragmatic, even if they are blinded by their own vendettas at times.

Thank you, anon, as that actually does bring up a good potential hook for a bunch of other events. Hell, it could even bring up stuff to do with Christian missionaries; I never got around to changing the pops, but the coast of China has a decent minority of Catholics (around Nanjing and Shandong) and Protestants (around Canton and in Taiwan) from early Christian missionary efforts. In exchange for help, Europeans could make the feudatory states allow missionaries free travel beyond the coast n' such. For Germans especially, missionaries who have taken the oath to become civil servants could spread the dual gospel of Christ and Democracy; German and Burgundian missionaries duking it out could be amusing.

I've been considering writing up a post or several on the German Revolution, seeing as how it has greatly affected European (and even worldwide to some extent, what with the new world secessions following due to war bankruptcy and focus on the Munich Revolt then the Bavarian Republic then the German Republic.

Why I say that instead of just writing and posting, though, is I wanted to know if any of you anons wanted a post or whatever on any particular topic. If I have no clue, I'll say so and try to research it a little; otherwise I'll do a writeup.