736c41 No.18296
Hi, I'm interested in reading more about the early Indo-Europeans. Unfortunately the topic seems to still be one of contention among scholars with competing theories. Not to mention how the issue can be fraught with "muh Aryan master race" bullshit. Can /his/ recommend some fair texts for laymen?
383c22 No.18304
I got you covered bruh
Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture
Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans, A Reconstruction and Historic Analysis of a proto language and proto culture
Indo-European Poety and Myth
Indo European Language and Culture
How To Kill A Dragon, Aspects of Indo Euopean Poetics
The Horse, The Wheel And Language
The Oxford Introduction to Proto Indo-European and the Proto Indo-European World
736c41 No.18311
>>18304Thanks! I knew /his/ would have the goods.
Polite sage.
b6609d No.18316
>>18304Do you know more about the subject anon?
000000 No.18320
106ad4 No.18323
000000 No.18336
>>18323What? Linguistics, individual branches, archeology?
106ad4 No.18348
000000 No.18349
>>18348Yes but I'm not some sort of scholar or university student, it is a hobby.
106ad4 No.18350
>>18349Then what you know.
000000 No.18356
>>18350Most of the linguistic features of the branches, a little archeology and the history of most historical indo-european speakers.
106ad4 No.18357
000000 No.18358
106ad4 No.18359
000000 No.18360
>>18359Well the Proto Indo-Europeans were according to the Kurgan theory a people who dwelt on the Pontic steppe. It is not known if they were the first to domesticate the horse but they definitely invented the horse drawn chariot that is attributed to their early expansion. The oldest and first branch is Anatolian. I'm not sure how Proto Anatolian is dated but the first recorded Anatolian (and IE) language is Hittite which is linguistically archaic (two laryngeal consonants and two labialised velars) but close to some some branches (water in Hittite is wātar, bretty spooky). The land that the Hittites migrated in was occupied by a people unrelated to Indo Europeans, the Hattians, who some scholars theorised are related to the North East Caucasian people. I'm not sure if the prevailing view is that the Hattians were culturally assimilated by the Hittites but the Hittites greatly adopted from the Hattians their gods and rituals. Also I'm unsure if there was some linguistic borrowing between them ala the Sumerians and Akkadians but there is a lot of gods in the Hittite pantheon that have Hattian names.
000000 No.18361
>>18360Also I forgot, there's a few theoretical relationships/sprachbund that Proto Indo-European might of had. There is one which states that the Proto IEs shared some vocabulary with the North West Caucasian languages, I think might have been phonology and words relating to agriculture. There's another one where there's some relation with the Proto Kartvelians like the word for wine. There is one definite one although I think it has more do to with Proto Germanic which is the borrowings with the Uralic languages.
000000 No.18362
I gotta go to sleep but I'll post more if anyone wants, I'll write about the other languages in the Anatolian branch (which isn't much, the only other one which has a sizable record like Hittite is Luwian)
106ad4 No.18363
>>18362Good night sweet prince.
278b8a No.18372
000000 No.18398
>>18363>>18372B-bb-ack dat ass up. Ok, The Hittite Empire only lasted about 500 years, archeology shows that their capital, Hattusa, was burned to the ground from what is ascertained in the Hittite archives by a confederation from the north east called the Kaskians who might have been Kartvelian speakers. After the sacking of Hattusa, the refugees migrated south and founded the so called Syrio-Hittite city states or the New Kingdom in some academic books (Trevor Bryce is the big daddy of Hittite studies if anyone's interested). I don't know if they pretty much wrote the same language of the empire because I've never seen any examples or they might have adopted Aramaic which was the lingua franca of the area of the Syrio Hittite states (pretty much Mesopotamian Turkey and northern Syria). Also an interesting aside, in the neighboring kingdom of Mittanni, there are some Indo Aryan names of the nobility which scholars have agreed that there was a Indo Aryan ruling class over the Hurrian population.
Also the Hurrians will come up again if anyone wants to learn about the history of the Armenian branch.
Onto the other Anatolian languages, the second best attested language is Luwian or Luvian. Their language was written in cuneiform like Hittite but there was also a Hieroglyphic Luwian script, I have no idea how they developed that, maybe Egyptian traders who passed Cyprus? The land they inhabited, called Luwiya (later Arzawa) in Hittite, south of the core regions of the Hittite Empire. The History of Luwian is very close to Hittite, attested from the first two millennium BC and died around 600 BC, probably from Hellenization. As the Luwians inhabited the core regions of the Hittites they were subjects of the Empire but there was a confederation that rebelled called Arzawa with their capital of Apasa (later Ephesus). They never survived the Hittites and their land was divided into regions that would later yield records of the other Anatolian languages. The phonology of Luwian is also pretty much Hittite too but their grammer had some peculiarities. The language was also written in different dialects, especially Hieroglyphic Luwian. Also Luwian itself is sometimes classified as a sub branch unde the name Luwic, which also includes includes Milyan and Lycian. These two languages are attested in the Western Anatolian coast, Milyan is only recorded in two inscriptions and was previously called Lycian B. Lycian was probably the same as Milyan but it had it's own alphabet which is close to Greek and is largely more well attested. These languages were recorded from around 500 to 200 BC. They most likely went extinct due to Hellenization, much like most Western Anatolian languages.
000000 No.18399
>>18398The next language is Lydian which is attested from 700 to 200 BC. There are only about 100 recorded texts so it's still not well understood and has some features that might be archaic or could be adopted from the people who occupied the Lydia before the Indo Europeans. Now the rest of the Anatolian languages have very small recorded outputs. These include Mysian, Carian, Sidetic, Pisidian and a few possible languages that have no records but surely must have existed which are Lycaonian, Isaurian, Cappadocian, Lutescan and Pamphylian.Also there are some theories of what language the Trojans spoke. Troy is recorded in the Hittite archives as Wilusa and the Greeks called Illion which is presumed to come from an older form Willion. There is some overlap with Hittite texts and the Illiad, one being a ruler of Wilusa recorded as Alaksandu which might have been Paris, and also a letter addressed to the king of the Ahhiwiya, who are theorized to be the Achaeans, from a Hittite king who mentions a military conflict with Wilusa.There is also a figure called Piyama-Radu who is identified with Priam except in the Hittite archives he is a renegade who attacks and raids the Western vassal states of the Hittites. He is also theorized to be a legitimate heir of a king of Arzawa who was dethroned by the Hittite emperor.
000000 No.18400
>>18399Now after the extinction of the Anatolian languages there are some vestiges left in some of the contemporary languages. I believe Georgian and Armenian have some Hittite loanwords. Also if anyone is interested in the military history of the Hittites there are are some Osprey books on the Hittite army,fortifications and also the site of Troy. Should I continue onto Armenian or do the next earliest attested language Vedic Sanskrit although I have little knowledge of it.
606e64 No.18403
>>18400My vote goes to Armenia
000000 No.18404
>>18403kek, alright. But before I do that I'll correct some shit. Kaskian is supposedly related to North West Caucasian, Hattian is the same and they are theorized to be a linguistic block with Kartvelian languages. Also there was a later Hittite language of the Syrio-Hittite states and they lost some aspects of the old grammar. Also there is a supposed relationship with Proto IE and Proto Semitic.
000000 No.18406
>>18404Now onto the Armenians. Scholars theorize that they are closely related to the Phrygians and migrated with them into Anatolian after the collapse of the Hittite empire. The land the Armenians eventually settled in was the land of the Hurrians who may have migrated there from the collapse of the Mitanni. The Hurrian and the later Urartu languages contributed to the development of the Armenian language. The Armenian language is only attested in around the 5th century CE but it is quite an eccentric language compared to the other branches of IE. Also Armenian heavily borrowed from numerous Iranian languages for it was a province of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid empires. The gap in between the Achaemenid and Parthian period the independent Armenians managed to carve a swath of territory stretching from Georgia to Cilicia in a south west direction.
000000 No.18548
>>18406Sorry for being MIA, was busy for a couple of days. The next stage of Armenian after Classical is Middle which is estimated from the late "dark ages" to about 18 or 19th century. I am not very knowledgeable about this part of Armenian history so I'll just go with what I know. After the constant Byzantine-Sassanid wars and the fall of the Persians and weakening of the Romans, Armenia became an independent nation once again. It remained that way until the Abbasid? caliphate encroached on the highlands. I'm not sure if the Arabs ever fully conquered the traditional lands of Armenia but even if they did that wouldn't last long. The Mongols came through the North having devastated the lowland tribes with the mountains being prime refuge. As the mongol deluge poured through the middle east, the Armenians managed to move to that land hard won before the Parthians, Cilicia. While the kingdom was in Cilicia, the Armenian language began to receive some influence from French as the crusaders made their way into the holy land. The modern Eastern dialect of Armenian has some rounded vowels which does not occur in the standard Western speech. After the mongols Armenia became a subject nation/people until the 21st century. What next language do you want me to do? Remember to keep it ancient
754e41 No.18640
000000 No.18675
>>18640
>>18640
aight bb. Also I might put up a Hittite Language Learning Pack like those ones you can find on the piratebay and kickass. Now onto Sanskrit. The earliest recorded material is the Vedas estimated to be orally composed in 1700-1500 BC just as the Aryans had entered the subcontinent. Much like other IE languages there is a number of substrates in Vedic Sanskrit. All of them are identified with historical languages in the area except one which has been dubbed "language X". Now this language has never been properly identified for it has no recorded material other than loanwords. I'm not sure if any tribal names have been recorded because the Aryans usually labelled foreign tribes Mleccha (barbarian, non-Vedic). The corpus of words attested to this mysterious people are largely native animal species and food. The other languages are Austroasiatic, Tibeto-Burman, Dravidian and the Language of the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (which also gave the same vocabulary to the Iranian languages).
000000 No.18712
>>18675
I might take a break here, you know you can just search wiki for this stuff or were you testing my knowledge?
4925b0 No.18713
000000 No.18741
>>18713
Thanks. Also about the Learning Pack, I got all of the materials ready, anyone know if you can register on kickass torrents with an anonymous email like guerrilla?
000000 No.18743
>>18741
Never mind that last part, got it set up with joke username for anyone versed in Sumerian literature :^). Expect to see the torrent in the following days.
000000 No.18791
>>18743
Also I'll do an Ugaritic pack too. There's a death metal album that has a track name in it, been trying to find out what it means. Shit is seriously triggering my linguistic autism.
491ccf No.18876
>>18296
Do you have any book about proto indo european religion? Or some comparative studies of different indo european religions?
000000 No.18918
>>18876
Most of the books up the top cover that.
9f739d No.18920
000000 No.20858
Alright niggas I've uploaded an Ugaritic Language Learning Pack, next Hittite.
000000 No.20859
769bb8 No.28274
Hello, this is semi-related and I don't want to push out a thread with mine.
What would be the earliest I-E culture who's material side could be recreated to a satisfying degree? You know, clothes, tools, buildings, an outline of the economy etc. Sufficient to make one of those nice kids' book illustrations with every aspect of life stuffed into one frame (man, I loved those educational books' drawings, dinosaurs man, dinosaurs).
How would one go about gathering data for that if he wanted to recreate it in some way? Especially as a history noob?
Are there online communities that focus on prehistory that'd be competent enough to help with this?
I'm kind of thinking about making 3D assets of something that I could then share and use myself for stuff like vidya or animation, but just doing generic fantasy stuff seems like wasting effort. I like the overall chariot riding, Conan'y vibe i get from Indo-Europeans in the Great Steppe. There'll be no pterodactyl riding, I promise.
>>20859
>hittite pack removed 14 hours ago
Good to know, now I can measure my bad luck.
000000 No.28279
>>28274
Sounds fucking awesome my nigga. I think the earliest IE culture would be the Yamna Culture but the pre-kurgan Urheimat of the PIEs is supposedly the Sredny Stog culture (haven't really studied these). I'm not sure if you could really find any communities that would know anything about the material culture, you could as scholars but they are tight ass bunch (that fucking Hittite pack for example. I still have the torrent file on my desktop, will re-upload somewhere else, maybe rutracker).
bee9e8 No.28318
>>28279
well the thought is appreciated all the same, early near eastern history fascinates me
ef17ff No.28363
What did Indo-Europeans look like? They weren't what we would consider white today right?
19c276 No.28365
>>28274
>I'm kind of thinking about making 3D assets of something that I could then share and use myself for stuff like vidya or animation, but just doing generic fantasy stuff seems like wasting effort.
You're a good man, anon.
>There'll be no pterodactyl riding
Actually, I'm a little disappointed by this bit.
000000 No.28367
>>28363
Well, their homeland is generally thought to be around Ukraine and the steppes north of the Caucasus so they'd pretty much look like Europeans.
735036 No.28375
>>28363
No one really knows, but probably they looked like today's proud black people.
769bb8 No.28381
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>28363
Do you imagine people evolving and differentiating at such rates that 5k years ago we had saber teeth growing out of our faces? For comparsion, cro magnons lived 40+k years ago.
Personally, mummies of IE people far removed from the continent of Europe sometime look more characteristically "European" to me, than modern Europeans themselves. Though to be perfectly honest a lot of them are Tocha and those guys lived in Europe at some point before turning back East if I recall correctly.
>>28365
You could always make it into some Heavy Metal stuff yourself. I'd stick to the more realistic use of the models, since that kind of thing is harder to come by.
Like I'd love me some believable Corded Ware-based Baldur's Gate game.
Still, I have no idea what to do.
769bb8 No.29776
>>28279
>I still have the torrent file on my desktop, will re-upload somewhere else, maybe rutracker).
Did you end up reuploading it anywhere?
9352b1 No.29780
>>28363
for some reason I always thought that chechen president ramzan kadyrov looks like how ancient indo-europeans must have looked like
000000 No.29782
>>29776
Not yet, might do it next week. I'll try kickass again
>>29780
North Caucasians look pretty European to me
064d96 No.32029
>>28363
Varying branches so they had diversity in looks. Early IEs before their expansion into central Europe had very low incidence of light eyes (less than 1 in 5) and almost no light hair.
However, the IE speaking groups in central europe several ages after showed a very high percentage of individuals with light pigmentation, pointing to sexual selection favoring those traits. The ones in Bulgaria, on the other hand, did not.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full
^ The study.
As for the ones in the eastern steppe, including the Tocharians, they were an all-together different thing and don't seem to have migrated towards Europe as none of their y-dna markers are found west of Russia.
064d96 No.32031
>>32029
Another thing to note is that populations were quite small at that time and easy to change in their ethnic makeup.
And, for all their chariots, the Indo-Europeans seemed to have an even deadlier weapon:
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2015/10/bronze-age-plague.html
000000 No.32066
>>32031
Huh, history repeats itself.
0ad66c No.32583
>>18406
>5th century CE
Are you referring to the language or the alphabet? The language or at least an early form of the language predates the alphabet by at least a thousand years. Before the creation of the armenian alphabet in 405 they would have used the greek or persian scripts, depending on the area of armenia.
000000 No.32590
>>32583
I was referring to the earliest records of the language. There's nothing before that so everything is pretty much conjecture. Also I might upload the Ugaritic torrent in the near future, I keep forgetting.
000000 No.34914
>>32029
>As for the ones in the eastern steppe, including the Tocharians, they were an all-together different thing and don't seem to have migrated towards Europe as none of their y-dna markers are found west of Russia.
Why would they? There's no place for their type of economy.
Even in Russia (not counting Eastern parts, obviously) they got mostly when civil war (with main factions Muslim vs. Nestorian Christian) in the disintegrating Horde ended and north-western formerly autonomous vassals who knew the worth of good cavalry offered noble status, no questions asked.
0c6dbc No.34916
>>28363
The were racially Nordic. So they looked Scandinavian/North Russian.
I would call that white.
9352b1 No.34920
File: 1454365943454.jpg (348.22 KB, 741x911, 741:911, Old_peasant_with_dagger_an….jpg)
>>34916
>Indo-Europeans
>Nordic
>>>/pol/
they were literally caucasian
http://dienekes.blogspot.si/2012/07/bronze-age-indo-european-invasion-of.html
>Indo-Europeans brought the West_Asian genetic component into Europe, typical of Caucasus