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Infinity Cup II status- rip

Allied boards - [ Philosophy ]


File: 1449005481825.jpg (28.32 KB, 325x213, 325:213, muhammadoncamel-jesusondon….jpg)

e69d2e No.33045

so when did islam stop considering themselves the heirs of greek intellectualisim, and why? or to put it another way, when did they stop studying or advancing philosophically/sceietifically, and why?

im assuming the crusades had something to do with it, but im not very well versed in this area of history.

9e5c31 No.33052

When in doubt, blame the Mongols. And the Ottomans. The former are responsible for razing many of the ancient Arabic centers of learning such as Baghdad (who may have been rebuilt but never quite managed to catch on to their old glory), while the Ottomans played no small role in the decline of the silk route, which was responsible for much of the wealth the early Muslim world enjoyed. Not that the Ottomans did not have their own scientists and poets, but the value of the cultural (and monetary) exchange the silk road brought to the middle east can must not be underestimated.


159183 No.33191

Islamic world was a centre of intellectualism as long as it was politically unified. It's way easier to do science when it's easy to get in contact with other scholars from far and wide. Which is the main reason why Europe stagnated until High Middle Ages, it was just too politically unstable to allow such international exchange.


d0e23a No.33224

File: 1449123783680-0.jpg (64 KB, 601x794, 601:794, Druze temple.jpg)

File: 1449123783683-1.jpeg (180.5 KB, 305x600, 61:120, Hajji_Bektash_Wali.jpeg)

File: 1449123783695-2.jpg (146.66 KB, 990x660, 3:2, Yazidi temple.jpg)

>>33052

>Ottomans

Didnt the ottomans crush the the druzeemirat, whose inhabitant were like the jazidis and other small ethnic-linked religions not even muslim and believed in reincarnation and stuff?

Id say that another point is that until al wahab and the ottomans mopped the floor, there were so many sufi like syncretisized cults and schools of Islam besides greater numbers of christians and whateverfrom stubborn natives didnt convert yet that the mohammedan durka-islam that revitalisized itself in the last centurys couldnt hinder progress and openmindedness alltogether.

Because honestly, while the pollack speaks now out of me, I can imagine the basic framework of islam being in any way supportive of mayor intellectual progress.

Its no wonder that the greates poets of persia drank wine and didnt do exactly as their prophet did.


d0e23a No.33225

File: 1449123861100.jpg (35.03 KB, 320x436, 80:109, Islamische Kalligraphie.jpg)

*cant imagine

my bad.


ce8292 No.33226

>>33224

> mohammedan

what does that term mean exactly? not saying you made it up, ie heard it before, i just dont know hat it means.


d0e23a No.33228

File: 1449125386497-0.jpg (24.62 KB, 240x232, 30:29, Djinnblock2.jpg)

File: 1449125386497-1.jpg (148.3 KB, 800x533, 800:533, djinnblock1.JPG)

>>33226

>mohammedan

I meant the fundamentalist Islam as it was still brandnew and practized during the time of conquest in arabia and north africa to make these damn pagans just worship one cube instead of many.


000000 No.33229

>>33226

It's an antiquated word for Muslim


4072d4 No.33230

File: 1449130223632.png (35.28 KB, 1747x1874, 1747:1874, murdercube.png)

>>33228

We all know that there is only one cube worthy of worship.


b61a05 No.33278

>>33045

Salafism/Wahhabism

I blame this shit. It should be outlawed


5cbbd1 No.33286

>>33278

so i take it these things are similar to the christian fundamentalism/literalism weve been experiencing in murka? to a much lesser extent of course, the christian stuff is mostly sensationalized.


ab6b15 No.33296

>>33286

Hmm ultraclericalism is never good.

Those faggots have been liquidating historical sites and damaging Mohammed's faces on pictures drawn by them before ISIS was ever a thing.


1ea05b No.33841

>>33191

> Which is the main reason why Europe stagnated until High Middle Ages, it was just too politically unstable to allow such international exchange.

What kind of jew are you exactly?

>>33278

When did these movements first emerge? I thought they are more of a 19th or rather 20th century thing.

>>33286

>>33296

I sense biased opinions here.


3487f7 No.33848

>>33226

It's just an archaic name - one designed to emphasize that it's a part of the Abrahamic religions.

>>33286

The two terms are virtually synonymous in English, but in Arabic it's a little clearer: Wahhabi means follower of al-Wahab but Salafi means [a person who is] pious.

>>33296

>damaging the Prophet's face

I know for a fact there's plenty of this goes on, but quite a lot of portraits never had his face to begin with. Most Wahhabis reject portaiture because it's considered vain.


afa971 No.33855

>>33841

>When did these movements first emerge? I thought they are more of a 19th or rather 20th century thing.

"Wahhabi - The most violent reform…occurred in Saudi Arabia in the 18th century among reforming zealots commonly knownas the 'Wahhabis.' The movement owes its origin to Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792) or north Arabia, who advocated the purification of the Islamic faith by ridding it of degrading accretions and who insisted on the right to independent thought. Despite strong opposition, his condemnation of the ‘authority’ (taqlid) of the medieval schools proved a greater liberating force than any other single factor in the shaping of modern Islam.

‘Abd al-Wahhab recognized only two authorities: the Qur’an and the Sunnah (Tradition) of the Prophet Muhammad with the precedents of the Companions of the Prophet. He denounced allegorical interpretation of the Qur’an, upheld the doctrine of predestination, and insisted that good works follow a sound faith. He made attendance at public prayer an obligation, stripped mosques of every ornament, and prohibited the use of the rosary. Invoking or seeking the intercession of prophets, saints or angels was strictly forbidden. Anyone caught smoking tobacco was to be punished by a maximum of forty stripes.

This new Group soon became involved in warfare, expanding … all over north Arabia into Iraq and Syria. ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz, commonly known as Ibn Saud, captured Riyadh in Saudi Arabia in 1920 and the twin holy cities of Medina and Mecca in 1925. By arming the people and creating agricultural colonies, he soon controlled almost the entire Arabian peninsula.

Modern Wahhabis retain their puritanical reforming zeal and are committed to restoring Islam to a semblance of its original form in the Prophet’s time. Their chief contribution has been to rid Islam of the medieval teachings and practices that were not part of its original doctrine. Their territories were able to profit greatly from the application of Western technology and from the sale of oil, factors that may inhibit an early return to ancient ways and valuses.”

(S.A Nigosian, World Religions: A Historical Approach, 4th Edition, pgs. 428-429)

this is what my History of Religions textbook says on Wahhabism. It doesn't mention salafism though.


afa971 No.33856

>>33855

>>33855

tried to post it double spaced but it didn't work


1ea05b No.33867

>>33855

That's interesting, thank you!


159183 No.33869

>>33841

>What kind of jew are you exactly?

A factual jew.


1ea05b No.33871

>>33869

International exchange leads mandatoriely to and only it leads to intellectual proesse is a claim based on opinion that might or might not be true.


591161 No.33915

>>33841

>I sense biased opinions here.

every opinion is biased you nigger. bias is what makes it an opinion and not a fact. what was your problem with >>33286 exactly anyway? are you a fundie?


45a410 No.33925

>>33915

>every opinion is biased you nigger. bias is what makes it an opinion and not a fact

Relativism.

>what was your problem with >>33286 exactly anyway?

Islam is a decentralised and individual religion. Christianity not. Thus it is silly to compare them in this way.


bc3b6e No.33937

File: 1451072037057.png (13.46 KB, 617x319, 617:319, Capture.PNG)

>>33925

please explain to me how an opinion can free of bias.

but you should note that i was asking a question (note the question mark), and was not claiming what i said to be true, and was comparing islam to a comparable thing (another religion) that i had a better understanding of in an attempt to improve my understanding of islam via the method known as comparing and contrasting. so perhaps you would do better to share what you just posted for the edification of everyone involved instead of declaring this or that about what was said, as that is sophistry and doesnt teach anyone anything.

>Islam is a decentralised and individual religion

so islam is practiced exclusively in private and there is no one whose job it is to interpret the word of god for his local community, nor someone who does the same on a larger scale? members of the faith do not congregate in buildings for the purpose of worship?


159183 No.33964

>>33871

So, you believe that it is not objectively true that where ideas can freely circulate, progress will naturally go faster as people are in contact with more of new discoveries? Has there ever been an isolated country that didn't stagnate as a result of its isolation?


6621fc No.34113

>>33052

>Ottomans played no small role in the decline of the silk route

silk road declined after new trade routes discovered in late 1400's and 1500's, and this is why eastern medditerenean became less relevant.

>>33045

after mongol invasion, the best libraries in the world teared down, and rationalism losed power as expected.Ottomans could handle things better, after suleiman the magnificent there were rarely good and capable sultans.And pissing contens in balkans instead of east africa, india,cava dried up the treasure.


05fae3 No.34140

>>34113

i might add that after the mongol invasion, the climate on the middle east was getting drier, making the desert advance towards the razed farming fields due to the lack of irrigation, forcing some settlements to take a nomad lifestyle


96a9b9 No.34484

File: 1453359789174.jpg (10.94 KB, 320x180, 16:9, _87809053_elijah.jpg)

>when did they stop studying or advancing philosophically/sceietifically, and why?

When they are taught that afterlife is better than the here and now.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35360415

Can't create new threads. Really? Can someone Hassassinate Josh for me?


35a87c No.34487

>>34484

I'm not sure how that link is relevant and, if your theory that they believe the afterlife is better than this life, then why are there large amounts of Christian philosophers and scientists?


19ed4a No.34491

>>34484

you should come over to endchan his m8, is gud

>>34487

presumably because Christianity borrows from the stoic ideals of leading a virtuous life, just with an emphasis on being punished in the afterlife for not doing so.


c962f7 No.34679

>>34491

>make the universe

> Somefaggot thinks my will is borrowed from some ideology for a social rejects to better cope with their constant failures in social situations.


000000 No.35010

>>33045

>or to put it another way, when did they stop studying or advancing philosophically/sceietifically, and why?

When they got a squabble for power and then infestation of the hashishins and suchlike. That's where the degeneration with all its symptoms shows - moronic provincial dictators, population mostly feeling resigned or disgusted, etc.


a05387 No.35027

>>33045

The Crusaders weren't particularly keen on Muslim writings, but they weren't typically burning books or razing universities. As others have mentioned, the Mongols very much were doing exactly that. For all the hysterics about crusade and jihad, most of the crusades were a squabble between nobility and neither side spent any significant amount of effort slaughtering or oppressing peasants of the wrong side. For the crusaders in particular it wouldn't even make sense to do so, because if they killed all the Muslims and Jews there would barely be an economy.

The Mongols, though? The Mongols didn't give a single fuck and were happy to pillage, burn, and rape every fucking thing they got their hands on.


000000 No.35150

>>35027

Sauce for such a claim?


b584fc No.35375

I was reading the essay "The Fate of Empires" by Gulbb

http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf

and he talks about the decline of the Arab/Islamic world/empire(s) intellectually and as a whole. Here are some of the parts focused on the Islamic empires.

XV The Age of Affluence

There does not appear to be any doubt that

money is the agent which causes the decline

of this strong, brave and self-confident

people. The decline in courage, enterprise

and a sense of duty is, however, gradual. Education undergoes the same gradual

transformation. No longer do schools aim at

producing brave patriots ready to serve their

country. Parents and students alike seek the

educational qualifications which will

command the highest salaries. The Arab

moralist, Ghazali (1058-1111), complains in

these very same words of the lowering of

objectives in the declining Arab world of his

time. Students, he says, no longer attend

college to acquire learning and virtue, but to

obtain those qualifications which will enable

them to grow rich.


b584fc No.35377

>>35375

XVI High Noon

That which we may call the High Noon of the nation covers the period of transition from the Age of Conquests to the Age of Affluence: that of Harun al-Rashid in Baghdad, of Sulaiman the Magnificent in the Ottoman Empire. All these periods reveal the same characteristics. The immense wealth accumulated in the nation dazzles the onlookers.


b584fc No.35378

>>35377

XVIII The Age of Intellect

We have now, perhaps arbitrarily, divided the life-story of our great nation into four ages. The Age of the Pioneers (or the Outburst), the Age of Conquests, the Age of Commerce, and the Age of Affluence. The great wealth of the nation is no longer needed to supply the mere necessities, or even the luxuries of life. Ample funds are available also for the pursuit of knowledge. The merchant princes of the Age of Commerce seek fame and praise, not only by endowing works of art or patronising music and literature. They also found and endow colleges and universities.

In the eleventh century, the former Arab Empire, then in complete political decline, was ruled by the Seljuk sultan, Malik Shah. The Arabs, no longer soldiers, were still the intellectual leaders of the world. During the reign of Malik Shah, the building of universities and colleges became a passion. Whereas a small number of universities in the great cities had sufficed the years of Arab glory, now a university sprang up in every town.


b584fc No.35379

>>35378

XIX The effects of intellectualism

There are so many things in human life which are not dreamt of in our popular philosophy. The spread of knowledge seems to be the most beneficial of human activities, and yet every period of decline is characterized by this expansion of intellectual activity.

The Age of Intellect is accompanied by surprising advances in natural science. In the ninth century, for example, in the age of Mamun, the Arabs measured the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Seven centuries were to pass before Western Europe discovered that the world was not flat. Less than fifty years after the amazing scientific discoveries under Mamun, the Arab Empire collapsed. Wonderful and beneficent as was the progress of science, it did not save the empire from chaos. The full flowering of Arab and Persian intellectualism did not occur until after their imperial and political collapse. Thereafter the intellectuals attained fresh triumphs in the academic field, but politically they became the abject servants of the oftenilliterate rulers. When the Mongols conquered Persia in the thirteenth century, they were themselves entirely uneducated and were obliged to depend wholly on native Persian officials to administer the country and to collect the revenue. They retained as wazeer, or Prime Minister, one Rashid alDin,

a historian of international repute. Yet the Prime Minister, when speaking to the Mongol II Khan, was obliged to remain throughout the interview on his knees. At state banquets, the Prime Minister stood behind the Khan’s seat to wait upon him. If the Khan were in a good mood, he occasionally passed his wazeer a piece of food over his shoulder.


b584fc No.35380

>>35379

XXIV The Arab decline

In the first half of the ninth century,

Baghdad enjoyed its High Noon as the

greatest and the richest city in the world. In

861, however, the reigning Khalif (caliph),

Mutawakkil, was murdered by his Turkish

mercenaries, who set up a military dictatorship,

which lasted for some thirty years.

During this period the empire fell apart, the

various dominions and provinces each

assuming virtual independence and seeking

its own interests. Baghdad, lately the capital

of a vast empire, found its authority limited

to Iraq alone.

The works of the contemporary historians

of Baghdad in the early tenth century are still

available. They deeply deplored the

degeneracy of the times in which they lived,

emphasising particularly the indifference to

religion, the increasing materialism and the

laxity of sexual morals. They lamented also

the corruption of the officials of the

government and the fact that politicians

always seemed to amass large fortunes while

they were in office.

The historians commented bitterly on the

extraordinary influence acquired by popular

singers over young people, resulting in a

decline in sexual morality. The ‘pop’ singers

of Baghdad accompanied their erotic songs

on the lute, an instrument resembling the

modern guitar. In the second half of the

tenth century, as a result, much obscene

sexual language came increasingly into use,

such as would not have been tolerated in an

earlier age. Several khalifs issued orders

banning ‘pop’ singers from the capital, but

within a few years they always returned.

An increase in the influence of women in

public life has often been associated with national

decline.


b584fc No.35381

>>35380

The later Romans complained that, although Rome ruled the world, women

ruled Rome. In the tenth century, a similar

tendency was observable in the Arab Empire,

the women demanding admission to the

professions hitherto monopolised by men.

‘What,’ wrote the contemporary historian,

Ibn Bessam, ‘have the professions of clerk,

tax-collector or preacher to do with women?

These occupations have always been limited

to men alone.’ Many women practised law,

while others obtained posts as university

professors. There was an agitation for the

appointment of female judges, which,

however, does not appear to have succeeded.

Soon after this period, government and

public order collapsed, and foreign invaders

overran the country. The resulting increase

in confusion and violence made it unsafe for

women to move unescorted in the streets,

with the result that this feminist movement

collapsed.

The disorders following the military takeover

in 861, and the loss of the empire, had

played havoc with the economy. At such a

moment, it might have been expected that

everyone would redouble their efforts to save

the country from bankruptcy, but nothing of

the kind occurred. Instead, at this moment of

declining trade and financial stringency, the

people of Baghdad introduced a five-day

week.

When I first read these contemporary

descriptions of tenth-century Baghdad, I

could scarcely believe my eyes. I told myself

that this must be a joke! The descriptions

might have been taken out of The Times

today.


26dd7a No.35578

I admit I don't know anything about this sort of thing but I think it has to do with religious people thinking that putting a high value on knowledge means that their religion is the only valuable knowledge.


49cdfd No.35599

File: 1456732639781.jpg (26.73 KB, 540x487, 540:487, 200% Rustled.jpg)

>tfw salafists and wahahabists are fucking up my country

>"muh original islam"

>are making U.S.A more and more mad

>using Taqiyya because they're trying to hurt other people instead of it for self-defense

>probably not even Shia

The only good thing is that they occasionally fuck with the West to grab their attention. I can't wait for ISIS to be removed.


c4dfa7 No.35633

>>35599

this is history, not your blog. at the very least keep your blogposts within the timeline set in the rules.




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