/histories/ - Humanities and Social Sciences

>>128

>(plz no "muh kike on a stick" or "muh larping treehuggers", lets just make this a scholarly discussion)

Don't worry about it, this board discourages such behaviour. But before we start, do you mind sharing some documents and lectures? You know, to have a basis to start this discussion.

Came from lurking /asatru/ as well

>>128

>Why did some tribes embrace Christ fully and immediately,

Which tribes have done this? I don't know of any, but I'm not that knowledgeable about this time period (just before/during Migration age, right?)

http://thuleanperspective.com/2014/05/01/the-dark-ages/

Varg has written his opinions about this time period, and I find his case convincing enough to make me a believer in it. Which can be summarised by an ISIS/Ummah style conquest of submission and destruction of 'academic' infrastructure (generally for the pagans above the Alps being an oral tradition) so we simply don't know what really happened. And this point of view can be corroborated with how the Christians wiped out Greco-Roman paganism in the Mediterranean. (summarised from DEMOLISH THEM by V. Rassias: http://thuleanperspective.com/2015/04/25/about-the-isis-of-antiquity/)

I have to admit I haven't heard a nuanced case from Christians though. I only had the displeasure of coming across the zealous kind who celebrate the Massacre of Verden etc. So please make the case if there is one to be made.

>>133

I am not OP

>Why do you guys reall need to idoliza war god?

Germanic paganism has multiple 'gods of war' even. They are mostly signified that way because these deities are regularly invoked for battle, this is the case for the majority of the pantheon. In the case of Wotan is known for his frenzy in battle and therefore is worshiped by warriors who want to be the embodiment of Wotan's frenzy.

>Why do you guys have many gods? I mean Tengrism which favoured warrior behaviour but it doesn't have many gods.

>Do you think you guys have common feature with hinduists or another pagan group?

Yes there is largely a common ancestral religion among European peoples, which branched out into their own thing generally speaking. Hinduism is also descended from this common ancestor via the Indo-European Vedic Civilisation.

>>129

Sorry, had to sleep before I could finish posting

I dont know of many lectures regarding the Germanics tribes, most professors and historians are more interested in Greco-Roman culture when it comes to ancient Europe

This is Tacitus' Germania, an old Roman book written as an ethnography of the Germanic tribes during 50 AD. Some parts are probably bullshit or exaggeration, for example he claims that Isis was worshiped among the tribes and was imported from Egypt and he claims that one tribe kills anyone who becomes elderly so that only warriors and child-bearers make up the tribe

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/id43.html

Sorry, only documents I can find at the moment. Most of the sources I read are from books

Yeah, it's a similar problem with the study of mesoamerica. There are a lot of studies in spanish, but it's very difficult to share stuff in english since it doesn't exist, or at least not digitized. Let me check out those links you shared, bro.

>>131

>which tribes have done this?

Not many admittedly, most tribes took the middle route and accepted Christ as another god but still prayed to their original gods. Over time they gradually became more Christian and eroded their indigenous culture.

And I believed that the Lombards were a tribe that converted quickly, but from reading it actually appears that their conversion was gradual too and started with the aristocracy while the lower classes remained mostly pagan. However, they did become mostly Christian and abandoned their culture much quicker than other tribes, but I think this has more to do with their proximity to Italy and the Vatican than anything else

So I correct my previous statement, most if not all tribes converted gradually. Only a few tribes resisted them fiercely, the one that comes immediately to mind would be the continental Saxons, who hundreds of years after their conquest by Charlemagne still resisted Christianity. The Stelinga uprisings happened every couple of decades and were revolts by the still Pagan peasants and farmers in attempts to reinstall paganism as the saxon religion

Like most peasant revolts, they didnt go so well

>>133

OP here

>Why do you guys have many gods?

Just how polytheism is I guess, dont ask me. All Indo-European religions had many gods; the closest they came to monotheism was Sol Invictus. they just saw many aspects to life and so there must have been many gods, I suppose.

theres also theories that among the Germanic people, and it may have been true across the Indo-European world, that heroes and kings were "elected" to become new gods. Theres a story about a tribe that "didnt have enough gods" so they wanted to become Christian, but their priests were suggesting that they elect the most recently dead king to become a new god due to his heroism.

"That a pagan like Clovis could ask Christ for help shows the adaptability of Germanic polytheism. In the polytheistic Germanic tradition, "if Odin failed, one absolutely could try it with Christ for once."[18] The Christian sense of religious exclusivism was unknown to the pagans. As a result, pagans could be pragmatic and almost utilitarian in their religious decisions. A good example for this are several Thor's Hammers with engraved crosses, worn as amulets, that archaeologists have found in Scandinavia.[19] Another exemplary event happened during Ansgar's second stay in Birka, a pagan priest demanded from the locals that they not participate in the cult of the foreign Christian God. If they did not have enough gods yet, they should elevate one of their deceased kings, Erik, to be a god."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Christianity#Characteristics

>Do you think you guys have common feature with hinduists or another pagan group?

Yes, we all spring from the same root (the Indo-Aryans). Ive studied Hinduism quite a bit and its strikingly similar to European mythology but especially to Germanic lore. The god of the dead has 2 dogs that bring the dead to him, similar to Odin, Agni the lord of fire has the whitest skin, golden teeth, 9 mothers gave birth to him on the edge of the world and he has supernatural senses, which is all exactly like Heimdall, and Soma, the sacred drink of the gods, bears similarities to the mead of poetry in Norse myth or the wine of Dionysus.

>What do you think if europe wouldn't be christian?

I like to image we would have been better off but who knows. Thats thousands of years of history that would have completely different outcomes. But honestly, I dont think it would have been extremely different in some ways. The Germanic invasion of Rome probably would have still happened and instead of them adopting Romano-Christianity, its possible they would have accepted Roman Paganism's structure into their own faith and spread writing and education across the Germanic world.

But who knows. Maybe Islam would have taken over Europe if not for christianity, in which case im thankful for the church.

It would have been fascinating to see paganism evolve into the modern world and become something akin to Shintoism or Hinduism, but purely European.

And about the runes, they certainly look similar but I dont know much about the Turks honestly. The Nordic runes without doubt are related to latin script, but they originally were pictographs that evolved into letters as the Germanics came into increasing contact with the Romans.

>>142

>sol invictus

he is god of sun right? but weren't romans worshipping mars,jupiter and idols like that?

>"That a pagan like Clovis could ask Christ for help shows the adaptability of Germanic polytheism. In the polytheistic Germanic tradition, "if Odin failed, one absolutely could try it with Christ for once."[18] The Christian sense of religious exclusivism was unknown to the pagans. As a result, pagans could be pragmatic and almost utilitarian in their religious decisions. A good example for this are several Thor's Hammers with engraved crosses, worn as amulets, that archaeologists have found in Scandinavia.[19] Another exemplary event happened during Ansgar's second stay in Birka, a pagan priest demanded from the locals that they not participate in the cult of the foreign Christian God. If they did not have enough gods yet, they should elevate one of their deceased kings, Erik, to be a god."

Interesting it's all seems about politics and traditions

I happy about discuss history with someone who is know what he s talking about

>>143

Yes, Sol Invictus was both the goddess of the sun and the sun herself. She used to merely be another Roman god but during the late Roman period, shortly before the arrival of Christ, She was being worshiped as the supreme god ruling over all the others. Her cult was in some ways assimilated into Catholicism, for example the Chi-Rho was originally a symbol for the sun cult but its meaning was reapplied to Christ.

and yeah, politics were a major reason that the germanics converted. once the king converted it was pretty much over for that tribes culture. The last Norse pagans, the Icelandics, converted peacefully because Christendom had laws preventing trade with non-Christians at that time. Since Iceland relied on imports for most of their supplies they were economically pressured to convert.

Ironically though, their peaceful conversion is what kept many pagan traditions alive in Iceland and allowed them to be recorded later on in the Prose and Poetic Eddas.

>>144

Oh, another thing about Sol Invictus' influence on Catholicism; the reason that Jews and old Christians worshiped on Saturday but modern christians do it on sunday is because of constantine. Early on he was a member of the sun cult but tolerated christians, however he demanded that they worship on the day of sun

>>144

>She used to merely be another Roman god but during the late Roman period, shortly before the arrival of Christ, She was being worshiped as the supreme god ruling over all the others

You may say heh but I already know this because of some video game rome totalwar barbarian invasion

Question is why? Why it became important?

>>146

no clue to be honest. I think it was a monogram for Pax Christos or something (the greek word for christ starts with an X)

Im not a specialist in Roman history so I dont feel at liberty to say, my main point of interest is the Germanic and Celtic tribes

>>148

I think you are mixing up two terms here. Roman 'propaganda' widely used the term Pax Romana [Roman Peace], sometimes refered to as Pax Augusta. Which corresponds to the same general idea of spreading 'civilisation' to the barbarians.

Chi-Rho is simply a monogram of the first two letters of the epithet Christ in the Greek AlphaBet. ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ = Christus. Just think of the Jesus fish, ΙΧΘΥΣ/ICHTUS = Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr/Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour. These kind of abbreviations/acronyms/symbols were not uncommon. Don't know about the Sol Invictus cult so can't comment on that aspect of the symbol.>>148

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