/islam/ - 8ch Masjid

>Islam is a peaceful religion.

Here is a very good article about apostasy in Islam

http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/att/index.php/al-islam/understaningalislam/61-death-for-apostasy-is-un-islamic-and-not-in-the-quran

>>11220

no compulsion to convert.

once you join, leaving is akin to treason.

>>11221

>not in the quran

why do amateurs still say this like if it matters? Muslims are not quranists. They rely on hadith.

Only libcucks use the "its not in the quran" meme, as if it means something

>>11222

You say this, but you're not Muslim; so how would you know?

>>11223

>They rely on hadith.

What do you mean "they"? Do you realize where you are? Hadith doesn't have authority over Qur'an. Any hadith that contradicts Qur'an is thrown out.

>cuck

Kinda like your opinion.

>>11224

>Any hadith that contradicts Qur'an is thrown out

The Qur'an didn't make the Hadd punishment for apostates haram.

For those that actually belief, here is a couple Saheeh sources where the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) directed us towards this:

http://sunnah.com/urn/1268520

http://sunnah.com/nasai/45/16

Rulings on this issue involve more than just irrationally killing someone. If someone is forced to denounce Islam, he would not qualify. If someone is excused out of ignorance, he would not qualify. This punishment is for the least just of all, those who lie about Allah and His Messenger (صلى الله عليه و سلم).

It seems permissible to have apostates put to death especially if they work to undermine Islam, which they commonly do just like the folks in this video.

>>11226

"Work to undermine" is very subjective. The fact is that apostasy is already undermining the faith in itself. We compare it to treason or deserting your position during time of war.

>>11224

Death to apostates doesn't contradict Quran. Its not a "compulsion of religion" to kill an apostate. the executor isn't trying to convert the apostate. He is executing him because apostasy is a crime. Punishing a thief or rapist is no different. You do the crime you do the time.

This might upset our liberal western brothers but it is what Islam teaches. It is sunnah. If you don't like it too bad

>>11230

>Death to apostates doesn't contradict Quran.

Then you would have no problem showing us in Qur'an where it says to kill apostates. Or will you avoid the issue?

Do not mix truth with falsehood and do not deliberately hide the truth Qur'an 2:42

When it comes to the death penalty, absolute equality is observed. The free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female Qur'an 2:178

Qur'an prefers that the murderer compensate the victim's family. Killing the murderer does not bring the victim back, nor does the family of the victim benefit from executing the murderer. The compensation, however, must be sufficient to be a deterrent for others.

If you don't like it, too bad.

>>11222

Its only treason if you plan to kill Muslims when you leave. There was even a homeless Bedouin who went up to the prophet and told him was leaving Islam and he was allowed to, and nobody cared, he just wondered off.

>>11233

We are even open to the idea of last minute forgiveness. Almost no justice system in the world has this.

I know that in America, it's taken out of the victim's hands and handled solely by the State. So even if the victim's family forgives the murderer and asks the court for mercy, the bloodthirsty Americans will kill him/her anyway.

I've never really liked Vice.

>>11237

OP here. So it's a tenet of shariah that the victim's family can forgive the accused?

My reason for asking is that it was either in this Vice video I posted, or in the one about the Kohistan murders, that I believe the claim was made that this practice is used in Muslim majority countries by families, who commit honor killings, to effectively forgive themselves.

If that is the case, there's certainly a procedural problem there.

>>11256

Someone forgiving themselves sounds extremely retarded, that does not work and anyone who thinks it works like that is very corrupt and in my opinion deserves hellfire. You just can't try and find a loophole tin order to sin in Islam. In Islam one of the things you are judged on is your intentions, looking for loopholes shows you have very bad intentions. You could even cure cancer (for example) but if you did it for bad intentions (whatever they may be) that good deed turns into a sin.

Also there is no definite "shariah law", nothing is written in stone, shariah is derived from what the Quran and hadeith say and there are many different interpretations for different things.

Furthermore there is so such thing as "honor killing" anywhere in Islam, those are just horrible family members who kill, every society has people like that sadly.

>>11256

People who dig for loopholes in Allah's commandments will get exactly what they deserve.

Wait wait wait … why do they need to be rescued? Nobody is chasing them down …

>>11263

Dude, half the video is about a Saudi girl who swears that either her brother or father would kill her if they learned she's an atheist (given that it's a Saudi family, that's easy to believe) and the other people similarly describe others' reactions to their apostasy as ranging from implied honor killing to episodic harassment to simple ostracism, thus forcing them to effectively seek out new social circles and residencies with varying urgency

>>11279

> her brother or father would kill her

That is the assumption. We don't know.

>given that it's a Saudi family, that's easy to believe

How many Saudi's have you met?

>>11279

>girl who swears that

And you believe her? With your only proof that it's a "Saudi family"?

I'm guessing you've never met an Arab, least of all an actual member of the Saudi family. I'm basing that on your automatic assumption that the people of Saudi Arabia are called "Saudis".

That's like saying Americans are "Obamais" because he's the President.

>>11279

I Knew a family where the son converted to Christianity (and it was quite obvious he converted to impress a girl he liked). His family was very disappointed and tried to convince him to convert back but they never threatened him or used violence. And something I find interesting when talking to him asking why he converted he would give bogus reasons and make up stuff about Islam and I'm guessing he did this as a way to justify why he converted (he would never admit he converted for a girl who still doesn't even like him).

I think it's the same for most the converts in the film, they deep down are unsure of the reasons they converted and are making up bogus information to convince themselves they made the right choice. And I'm not going to pretend there aren't some Muslims out there that would get mad at someone for converting away from and insulting Islam, I'm sure it happens, I'm just saying that Islam does not teach that.

Salam. I have a question. Please do not get angry. All muslims bow down to the Prophet Muhammads(PBH) footsteps on a rock. How is that not idolatry? Alaah is everywhere so why cannot we pray in any other direction?

>>11292

First of all Allah doesn't reside within his creation, he's above it. Secondly I've never heard of Muslims bowing down to Muhammad's(SAW) footsteps on a rock, I mean where did you hear this stuff from?

>>11299

He's referring to direction of prayer and he has a point

>>11300

Well I still expected him to be less ignorant of his own religion, by espousing un-Islamic beliefs such as belief in Allah being everywhere, and saying that we revere the Kaaba as if it were an idol.

>>11292

>>11300

Refer to al-Baqarah ayat 142-149.

The direction of the Qiblah was a blessing from Allah to the Messenger and the believers. It separates us from the disbelievers and hypocrites who refuse to accept the Revelation from Allah.

Saying Allah is everywhere is disbelief.

>>11292

>bow down to the Prophet Muhammads(PBH) footsteps

Nobody does this.

>>11300

>he has a point

No he doesn't. There is no point in falsehood.

>>11303

>muh sunnah

> "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

> "These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

> “Or have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all things which God has created? Or that perhaps their time may be drawing near? Which Hadith, other than this Qur'an, do they believe in?” 7:185

funny how "fundamentalists" get their "fundament" out of not the Qur'an but hadiths don't you think?

>>11308

According the guidelines of the board, Quranis are not welcome here.

If you actually cared about the Sunnah you wouldn't ignorantly cite ayats thinking they are any way directed at following The Sunnah of the Messenger (صلى الله عليه و سلم).

If you want to quote from Surah An-Nisa, try going back to verse 65 and keep reading to verse 80.

>>11308

Qur'anists are Muslims like Mormons are Christians.

You can hang out here, but don't spread your lies as truth.

Do not mix truth with falsehood and do not deliberately hide the truth. Qur'an 2:42

>>11315

We prostrate to Allah alone. It is important that we are all prostrating the same direction, It wouldn't be right if we faced each other and prostrated, right? The Jews prostrated toward Jerusalem, as it is a place dear to them. Muslims originally did this as well, but the Messenger (صلى الله عليه و سلم) longed to face Mecca, which was more dear to him. Allah willed it and allowed it to happen. (see surah al-baqarah 142-149). I see this as also being important to separate those who believe and follow the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) from the disobedient among the people of the book who rejected him.

>>11312

There are numerous ayat about following the Sunnah of prophet Muhammad(SAW). There is also quite the process in verifying hadith, so it isn't just "some dudes" picking and choosing which they think are true.

>>11326

So, it is like just I said. We bow down to a place dear to our prophet. This is idolatry no matter how you want to put it or how fancy your choice of words is. :(

>>11332

Are you serious? It was ordained by Allah. It did not happen until Allah ordained it. How do you come to think this is idolatry?

>>11292

If people are worshiping Muhammad's footsteps you need to tell them that is shirk and to stop.

>>11315

If you are not picturing yourself bowing down before Allah when you pray and instead thinking you are praying to some object you are doing it wrong. In fact I think there may be some decent argument to claim your prayers are invalid (but that is not my place to say if someone's prayers are invalid or not, it is up to Allah)

>>11345

Oh wow. That's like saying I can picture myself praying in masjid while I am on the toilet.

I am starting to think that mecca is just a snesky way to grab money from tourists. After all saudis are very lazy and greedy.

>>11368

The simple fact is that we all bow toward mosque in Mecca because it was ordained to do so by Allah. It allows every Muslim in the world to be joined in that singular capacity. It's why the prayer positions are the same and the prayers are the same.

It means I can walk into any mosque anywhere in the world and be able to pray with my brothers regardless of cultural or language differences.

Islam is more than a religion. It is a community.

>>11327

> There is also quite the process in verifying hadith

Show me please

>>11371

http://islam.ru/en/content/story/principles-hadith-verification-and-acceptance

http://www.ilmgate.org/principles-of-hadith-verification-and-acceptance/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_studies

>>11372

lol so much recursive nonsense

>the qur'an has everything we ever need in it, it is the ultimate guide to life and the universe

>w-we may need all these other documents to supplement it…

>>11373

Qur'an states that we are required to follow lawful hadith.

Surah an-Nisa 59 : O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.

Muhammad(صلى الله عليه و سلم) was sent not only to deliver Qur'an, but to interpret it as well. Surah an-Nisa 65:

By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

The entire basis of the Quranist movement is to remove such things from Qur'an, lest they be proven in error. If you have to take from, or add to, Qur'an in order to bring your proof; then you have no dog in this fight.

It should also be noted that there is a difference between hadith and sunnah.

No scholar of Islam has ever claimed that the sources of Shari'a are "the Quran and the hadiths". Rather, the correct statement is that the sources of Shari'a are the Quran and the SUNNA. The hadiths are a textual source for determining what the Sunna is. But they are not by themselves the Sunna.

>>11374

>Surah an-Nisa 59

Yes, and we can't obey Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) anymore because he is dead. To say we should obey some texts that have been written by men because "they were TRUE and HONEST recordings of what the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) said" is ludicrous.

>The entire basis of the Quranist movement is to remove such things from Qur'an, lest they be proven in error. If you have to take from, or add to, Qur'an in order to bring your proof; then you have no dog in this fight.

Except you accepts additions, but don't call them additions, you call them "hadith"

>>11403

>we can't obey Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) anymore because he is dead

When someone leaves behind instructions and explanations, then yes we can. Do you honestly believe you have any original questions to ask that the Prophet didn't hear in his day?

The Sunnah is part of Qur'an. That is immutable fact, ordained by Allah. If you remove Sunnah, then you are removing part of Qur'an.

This makes you worse than a non-believer because you claim to be Muslim, where the non-believer does not.

>>11404

>The Sunnah is part of Qur'an. That is immutable fact, ordained by Allah. If you remove Sunnah, then you are removing part of Qur'an.

>The Oral Law is part of the Torah

>The Church is part of the teachings of Jesus

All this [foul language] has ALWAYS been used to corrupt the deen of God (swt) by man made garbage

>>11405

I brought my proof, from Qur'an itself. If you deny Qur'an, then you deny Islam. If you deny Islam, then you deny Allah.

If you deny Allah, then you have no reason to be on this board.

>>11406

The evidence is strong enough in Surah An-Nisa alone. Not only do they not understand the science of hadith, they can't justify their case with the Quran, apart from pulling a tiny handful of ayat unrelated to the Sunnah.

>>11415

Some of the greatest scholars of Islam were non-arab. Imam Bukhari is a great example.

Islam allows apostates to live under the condition that they do not attack muslims when they leave as >>11233 stated.