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There's no discharge in the war!

File: 1456296439843-0.jpg (13.77 KB, 686x170, 343:85, Firearm_FG42[1].jpg)

File: 1456296439843-1.jpg (44.37 KB, 713x125, 713:125, ArisakaType02ParaTakedown[….jpg)

File: 1456296439843-2.jpg (116.63 KB, 700x362, 350:181, MP5A3_StockCollapsed[1].jpg)

35d8ee No.321446

Oh no! Our paratroopers can't carry a long gun with them while jumping and they get slaughted after landing because of it!

Germany

>we need to make a brand new rifle

>this new rifle must fire semi-auto on a closed bolt!

>and full auto on an open bolt!

>and it has to fire rifle grenades!

>and have an integrated bayonet!

>and a bipod!

>oh it must be no lighter than and no heavier than our existing rifles while being made under late industrial limitations

>what do you mean it breaks itself?

Nippon

>take a normal rifle, make it fold in half!

I wish Nippon exported more small arms to the US market. The ones they have are so much better than the highly touted German shit.

13322e No.321447

If anything they should have just carried MP40s for most paratroopers with a few folding K98s of G43s to extend range


35d8ee No.321453

File: 1456296870109-0.jpg (138.06 KB, 2403x620, 2403:620, HOWA_Hogue_Blkahme_enl[1].jpg)

File: 1456296870109-1.jpg (54.76 KB, 600x367, 600:367, 20120321_2494584[1].jpg)

File: 1456296870110-2.jpg (374.07 KB, 3748x831, 3748:831, browning-auto-5-magnum-twe….jpg)

Is this every small arm exported by Nippon post WW2?


35d8ee No.321454

File: 1456296885806.jpg (305.69 KB, 900x600, 3:2, 20150605071503-2448[1].jpg)

>>321453

Why are we limited to 3 images?


746550 No.321483

>>321453

Japan is not actually allowed to export military arms anymore.


3995d2 No.321487

Why did you post this thread again?


e91d43 No.321495

>>321447

BUT WHERE WOULD YOU PUT THE BOLT DISSASSEMBLY DISK?!?!?! PARATROOPERS NEED BOLTDISASSEBLY!!!!


516afb No.321518

File: 1456307373132.jpg (119.38 KB, 1100x228, 275:57, 1283986929760.jpg)

FG42 was a very good rifle. Complicated, expensive as fuck and not really necessary, but still a good rifle. Version 2.0 fixed every issue.

but n/A looks bloody awesome, just look at this sleek bastard. It looks like something Apple would do if they made guns.


ac9827 No.321524

>>321518

>If apple made guns

So it breaks easily and is stupidly expensive to replace/repair?


13322e No.321527

>>321524

exactly


94216f No.321539

>>321524

>tfw the new version of the apple machine gun requires mandatory ammunition updates which invalidate use of old ammo, also has a maintenance backdoor allowing apple to destroy the firing pin whenever they feel like it

>tfw the apple machine gun costs 5x the price of the leading competing machine gun


cc1beb No.321555

If anything, SMGs should have been service weapons, and that's that.


dff425 No.321575

>>321555

>9x19mm/45acp

>Having an effective range beyond 150 meters where troops were expecting 300m shots

It's already dropping like a stone by 150 anyway.


cc1beb No.321579

>>321575

Rate of fire make up for the lack of range.

Only designated marksmen should have a rifle, everyone else should focus on fire and maneuver.


fe9d4c No.321580

>>321579

>Rate of fire make up for the lack of range.

This is not now, nor has it ever been true. Your rate of fire can only ever be used to effect when you are close enough, otherwise you might as well save your ammo, since all you are making is noise, and not even noise next to the enemy either.

>Only designated marksmen should have a rifle, everyone else should focus on fire and maneuver.

You cannot maneuver without suppressing the enemy, and you cannot suppress an enemy to which you are not close enough to actually hit. This isn't an issue for enemies that are farther away, but enemies that are within 500m, this is is problem.


cc1beb No.321581

>>321580

Rate of fire only steadily increases as the battlefield gets more modern. Else, we would still be using bolt action rifles as main weapons.

The perfect WW2 squad tactics would be mirroring Cold War Soviet tactics, 8 main squad divides into 2 teams, one team with a marksman, one team with a machine gun, everyone else hold SMG. When the machine gun team fires to cover, the marskman team moves, and vice versa. All that matters is to come close to the enemy and crush them with high volumes of fire and control enemy's territory.

>but enemies that are within 500m, this is is problem.

If the enemies are further away, you advance toward them, I do not encourage taking potshot at them. Combat is less about accuracy, but more about maneuvering and using fire/noise to distract enemies while maneuvering.


cc1beb No.321583

>>321581

>8 man-squad divides into 2 teams*


711487 No.321584

>>321539

Don't forget that the Apple iShoot is hardware limited to 22 rounds a minute, and the proprietary ammunition (only £10 a bulet you guys!) loses all its energy after about 100m, unless you pay for the special Mac-pro bullets that might just make it to 210m, if you're lucky (over twice as good as normal, OMG!).


4461d6 No.321587

>>321483

Explain the Howa 1500


1f54d4 No.321602

>>321587

Nips can export sporting arms. So they can't ship out AR180s but Howas and all of Brownings A-grade stuff is just fine.


35d8ee No.321612

>>321539

>>321524

So H&K

>>321602

They made some of the AR-18s. By all accounts the ones subcontracted to them were easily the best of the AR-18s.


1f54d4 No.321738

>>321612

Anything contracted out to/made by the nips is beyond excellent .


fe9d4c No.321760

>>321581

>Rate of fire only steadily increases as the battlefield gets more modern. Else, we would still be using bolt action rifles as main weapons.

I disagree. There is an optimum rate of fire for controllability. This means you don't want a SAW at 1000rmp.

>Else, we would still be using bolt action rifles as main weapons.

We don't use them because they fall outside that optimum range, however, the sustained rof for a rifle is different than we would expect on an MG. This means about 90rmp on rapid fire mode at most. Any more than that and it's a waste of ammo.

>The perfect WW2 squad tactics would be mirroring Cold War Soviet tactics, 8 main squad divides into 2 teams, one team with a marksman, one team with a machine gun, everyone else hold SMG.

I don't know about WWII, but the fact that the US seemed more inspired by the Germans than by the USSR says something. There is a reason we use two SAWs for a 9 man squad, but we also have DMRs, also two per squad. This allows one element to cover the other, and is useful in bounding. I find it hard to picture how you would accomplish this with only one SAW per squad.

> When the machine gun team fires to cover, the marskman team moves, and vice versa.

You can't really do vice-versa. If you could suppress with a marksman, then there would be no need for an MG of any type. Actual MG teams are also a platoon-level thing, not squad, even if squads are also augmented with MG teams from time to time.

> All that matters is to come close to the enemy and crush them with high volumes of fire and control enemy's territory.

If the enemy has chosen to go with multiple SAWs, and actual rifles, you are not going to get close. That's the point. Your SMG isn't going to suppress an enemy beyond 150m, and you can be suppressed beyond that point with rifles and a set of SAWs. There is a reason SMGs are not used for combat anymore, this is that reason.

>If the enemies are further away, you advance toward them

That's fine, but the enemy has decided not to be retards and use weapons fit for the job. Have fun advancing on an enemy that can actually throw lead at combat ranges.

>Combat is less about accuracy, but more about maneuvering and using fire/noise to distract enemies while maneuvering.

This false dichotomy always comes up in internet arguments. Yes, we practice maneuver warfare, but that does not mean accuracy isn't one of the most important things to learn. There is a reason that the US places importance on marksmanship. Even the gunners must learn to fire accurately with their weapons. Making noise near an enemy requires that you actually aim, that you understand your weapon, especially if you're a gunner. Machine gun theory is super important and is one of the harder things to grasp. This is why good gunners stay gunners. They're hard to come by.

Accuracy is important, and so is maneuvering. They two go hand-in-hand. Do not be fooled into thinking that simply going cyclic on an MG will do its job. An MG is a finer weapon than that. It's both a science and an art.


746550 No.321779

>>321575

No, not enough range, stopping power or penetration, even the weaker levels of body armour will stop a pistol round and fire fights often go past 100m. I don't see any real advantage to a machine pistol anyway, yes they may weight a tad less but soldiers can deal with what they have in fact they should toughen up and start using 7.62 again.


3adeaa No.321804

>>321760

Why do you people argue on the internet? If you want to learn about firearms and tactics, use academic material and learn from actual people who know something. This board is for entertainment and research, but not useful for debate really.


cc1beb No.321807

>>321760

You are arguing about modern combat with the employment of SMG. I'm arguing for the optimum WW2 squad when enemy doesn't have a portable SAW and semi-auto rifle was a precious commodity, but just 1 or 2 machine gun, 1 or 2 SMG and the rest of bolt action.

People don't employ SMG anymore because they invent assault rifle, but before that point, SMG was the proto-assault rifle and in the last days of WW2, both the nazis and soviet fielded entire battalion of SMGunners to spew lead at each other.


746550 No.321810

>>321779

Oops meant for >>321555


fe9d4c No.321811

>>321807

>You are arguing about modern combat with the employment of SMG. I'm arguing for the optimum WW2 squad when enemy doesn't have a portable SAW and semi-auto rifle was a precious commodity, but just 1 or 2 machine gun, 1 or 2 SMG and the rest of bolt action.

My apologies. That wasn't clear from your posts.


94216f No.322202

>>321807

>>321807

It turns out you're both right then.

Shame stormtrooper tactics were so short-lived. They're fucking cool as shit. Valkyria Chronicles (turn-based tactical anime WW2) has a stormtrooper class and it's awesome.


3e3fb3 No.322210

>>321518

> if apple made guns

HK?


3ff1ad No.322236

File: 1456431131349.jpg (509.87 KB, 1440x900, 8:5, guns_heckler_and_koch_mp7_….jpg)

>>321518

There's already a company like apple that makes guns, it's called Heckler and Koch.


d109df No.325888

>>321446

As cool as the paratrooper Arisaka is, it's fucking retarded for the role it was intended for.

>no folding stock

>didn't just shorten barrel

>heavier than standard Arisaka (can someone confirm this?)

>let's make the action break apart so it can collect dirt and can't be fired until you take the time to assemble it

Also

>cottage industry tolerances


2d362b No.325892

>>321518

I can't be the only one who thinks that's ugly as hell.


ee144c No.325901

File: 1457050548136-0.jpg (91.49 KB, 500x268, 125:67, Paratroopers_jumping_from_….jpg)

File: 1457050548137-1.jpg (37.8 KB, 550x300, 11:6, tumblr_mtvd5tILoU1s57vgxo3….jpg)

Russia:

>give the troops submachine guns

>drop parts of cannons and expect troops to assemble them

>attach tanks to kites

>costs high? parachutes optional

>what do you mean we have heavy casualties?


ee144c No.325902

>>321581

>Rate of fire only steadily increases as the battlefield gets more modern.

Not the way you think.

Three round bursts happen at 1000rpm, for improving accuracy.

But we also have a suppressive fire setting which is only 600-800rpm.


1f54d4 No.326207

File: 1457112993558.jpg (1.74 MB, 7223x3599, 7223:3599, 1412381345013.jpg)

>>325888

I've had the pleasure of playing with a TERA. They're just a tad bit heavier than a Type 99.

The only downside to the cottage industry tolerances is rifles don't interchange with one another. Putting the rifle together is a breeze though.

I don't see a folding stock working with a traditional rifle stock to be honest and the recoil from a 7.7x58 is about the same as a .303 and I'll tell you now the recoil out of a sporterized Enfield isn't pleasant even when it still has a fuckton of wood on it.


a9f03d No.330677

>>326207

Bayonet on a LGM why??

Who thought the LGM team ought to be advancing before the first section assault team?

and the thing is it has a scope so someone clearly thought about the proper role of the LMG and it's duties then they go and waste precious redefined metal in wartime on putting a bayonet on it.


074768 No.330697

File: 1457767324095-0.jpeg (37.72 KB, 710x325, 142:65, image.jpeg)

File: 1457767324096-1.jpeg (300.57 KB, 985x768, 985:768, image.jpeg)

>>330677

Because Nips and Asians like stabbing people bullets are expensive


5c3048 No.330716

>>321446

>>321518

Wasn't the FG42 more of a

>Lets make a single gun for every situation forever

type of deal? That's the impression I got.


20111d No.330720

>>330716

Yeah, they had the option to take the STG-44, but the Luftwaffe thought the 7.92 kurz was under-powered for a marksman role, so they wanted the multi-role rife chambered in the 8mm mauser round. They should have gone with an STG44 and given modified G43 rifles to their marksmen, in my opinion.


45cfb4 No.330758

>>330720

>They should have gone with an STG44 and given modified G43 rifles to their marksmen, in my opinion.

muh dick


1f54d4 No.330811

>>330677

To give you an idea why the MG has a bayonet comes from the earlier days of facefucking China.

To paraphrase my friend "My greatgrandfather always was at the front of the column not because he was particularly aware, brave or tall but due to the face his Type 11 was the only automatic firearm they had with their twenty or so man group"

tldr the nips didn't have enough firepower. All they had were Arisakas and the occasional MG, SMG's were a rarity if anything.


1f54d4 No.330812


cb7fef No.330820

>>330811

japan didnt think they needed an smg until late in the war and the smg they developed was pretty piss poor even by open bolt tube smg standards.


1f54d4 No.330823

File: 1457793832540.jpg (27.13 KB, 591x195, 197:65, 試製二型機関短銃.jpg)

>>330820

The thing is the reason why they never really developed SMG's to any capacity was due to the nature of how they fought and who they fought, fighting assbackwards chinks and other poorly armed groups steeled the idea that you could just run them through after they broke and ran. The rude awaking of having to fight the British in the west as well as figuring the Americans were still armed with Springfields instead of Garands and BAR's fucking everywhere that caused them to cobble something together from a faintly familiar design.

It was a lack of necessity that caused the Type 100 to be poor design wise even though its a simplified Mp18, they seriously thought self-loading rifles and SMG's were a passing fad like Vietnam vets figured 5.56 wasn't going to last long.

That is how its been explained to me.

I will also say this, some of their other submachine gun designs were well ahead of their time, it is a shame they were also enamored with the idea that 8x22mm was enough for whatever the fuck they were fighting instead of adopting something new.


ee144c No.330838

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>330823

Don't forget commies, cossacks and fucking mongols.


943b58 No.330842

>>330838

>suicide bombers

That's odd. Only the Chinese did that during WW2. Japs had those suicidal frogmen and kamikaze pilots.

All the other mention of Japanese "suicide squads" were just desperate attacks by Japanese paratroopers on allied airfields near the end of the war.


ee144c No.330910

>>330842

You're forgetting that Japanese had like a million Chinese conscripts in Khalkin Gol.


dc3f25 No.330912

>>330842

The movie was made by koreans.


8e7f40 No.330915

>>321453

>doesn't mention that literally every Browning and almost all Winchester guns manufactured after ~1960 are made by Miroku and imported from Japan

>doesn't mention the literally millions of Miroku shotguns imported and resold under different names in 30 countries starting in the early 70's


8e7f40 No.330917

>>321587

>sporter barreled bolt action rifle

>with an internal 3 round box magazine

>and a sporter stock and no iron sights

>that lacks a muzzle device or the ability to accept a muzzle device

Explain how that's a "military arm"


662c20 No.330968

>>325901

>costs high? parachutes optional

That…….thats a joke………right?


8d1840 No.330970

File: 1457817091029.png (393.72 KB, 680x1252, 170:313, soviet_at_protection.png)

>>330968

What do you think? The USSR literally started out from the communism maymay.


1f54d4 No.331011

>>331007

Wait, you're serious?

No really, the top grade Browning and Winchester stuff is made in Japan.

All their garbage is made in Belgium and America, not even joking.


35d8ee No.331012

>>330915

What do you think the third image is?

Also the 4th image which is in the next post.


c129cd No.331060

>>330968

nah, they had a field Marshall who literally just had the planes fly low and told the troops to say their hail marys and roll.


c15e03 No.331142

>>325892

it looks like something out of the new fallout i seriously didn't think it was real


10d431 No.331178

>>330970

Friendly reminder that people weren't riding on tank hulls until chechen war.


775183 No.331190

>>330970

>hungarian in charge of understanding war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_desant


e4abee No.331193

File: 1457849089944.jpg (237.46 KB, 1200x786, 200:131, BDGf24K.jpg)

>>330970

To be fair the idea isn't for the infantry to be fodder that takes the AT charge instead of the tank. The idea is that the mechanized infantry attached to the tanks can hop off and fight anti-tank infantry at a moment's notice, and provide extra overwatch the tank crew can't. It was actually something most countries did well into the 1950s when APCs and IFVs became a thing, most of them just didn't really have a doctrine for it.

That's kind of lost on a lot of people since movies like Enemy at the Gates have perpetuated an idea of the useless, disposable Soviet conscript who lacks even a rifle. After they relearned the concept of what they called "Deep Battle" this wasn't usually the case.


775183 No.331291

>>331193

The infantry riding along also helps fix the tank, thereby making the old argument of "three crew not enough!" completely illogical. It's also safer because the tank can be used for cover from practically any weapon, while an APC might barely be concealment against a HMG or an autocannon.

Russians still do desant on the later T-72 models, the T-90, Terminator and they will continue to do it on some Armata models. For example Kurganets has four handholds in the front hull and also has space for four desant in the very back behind the turret, between and on those humps on either side of the rear entry door.

This is despite the fact that ERA and APS would slaughter everyone in the path of the enemy shell.


a36f1a No.331307

File: 1457881628051-0.jpg (38.46 KB, 820x630, 82:63, aksu.jpg)

File: 1457881628051-1.jpg (14.51 KB, 436x200, 109:50, m4a1 short.jpg)

Russia

>special forces need short gun

>just cut off excess barrel and make stock fold

>done, get out of the bureau

USA

>special forces need short gun

>cut off excess barrel and

>oh uh fuck there's a tube sticking out of gun's arse

>c-collapsible stock m-maybe?

>i-it's not as compact so uh BUT IT'S TOTALLY BETTER I SWEAR


dcf272 No.331309

>>331307

The short AK has a different gas system than the full size rifle. That's why it has that funny muzzle device.

The M4 has a better effective range than the AKS74U and the AKMSU.


57d807 No.331310

>>331309

>different gas system

The only difference lies in the gas port itself. Muzzle device is there to compensate for the needed barrel length

>better effective range

It's a CQC weapon, tart. AKS/AKMSU have 400m max effective range and for a compact weapon designed for special forces this is more than enough. Plus you're thinking about full-sized M4, not the CQC carbine.


dcf272 No.331314

>>331310

If I recall correctly the muzzle device serves as a gas expansion chamber and a flash hider at the same time.


a57ebf No.331332

>>331314

It's not totally necessary though. Draco pistols don't have such a muzzle device.


dcf272 No.331338

>>331332

Draco pistols have that massive fireball muzzle flash.


a97913 No.331341

File: 1457892270297.jpg (116.94 KB, 822x960, 137:160, how_to_operate_with_peesto….jpg)

>>331190

>murican in charge of anything

>literally too stupid to understand that it's a joke accompanied by a joke image

We already fought some pretty ballsy wars against the Germans by the time the Normans invaded Britain. And that was long before anyone discovered America. And there were quite a few years between the discovery of America and he establishment of the USA. And even then, you mostly just bullied spics, slaughtered shitskins and fucked the collective shit of Europe up for the sake of the kikes. Then you saw some pics from Vietnam, and your public support for war completely disappeared.

Meanwhile we fought long and bloody wars for our very survival.

>>331193

Damn, is it really that hard to comprehend a joke? America is a big place, so I don't understand why both of you are so incompetent when it comes to simple humour. I didn't even make that picture, yet even I can comprehend both the creator's and the editor's intention.

Tell me, is pic related actual advice in your opinion?


ee144c No.331507

>>331309

>effective range

Firstly this is a wikipedia stat which is completely unrealistic.

Secondly it's useless when discussing SBR/carbines anyway.

>>331341

Calm down buddy, people get pissed whenever that pic is posted. It's a shitty joke because SO MANY PEOPLE believe it unironically.


844470 No.331889

>>331338

>cz52

>fire a single shot

>gun range is on fire

I love it.


57d807 No.331893

>>331309

Except M4 is carbine version of M16 rifle, while AK was classified as carbine to begin with, and AKS-74U is something more similar to PDW, as it was designed as SMG replacement for army. Seriously, AK-74 is barely longer than M4 (870mm vs 840mm).




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