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There's no discharge in the war!

File: 1457617690955-0.jpg (72 KB, 500x637, 500:637, Cataphract.jpg)

File: 1457617690958-1.gif (41.93 KB, 282x432, 47:72, pikeman-web.gif)

File: 1457617690959-2.png (878.1 KB, 710x897, 710:897, Mounted Knight.PNG)

c185cc No.329745

Throughout history, the tradition of "bring your own shit" has been well established. Shields were often family heirlooms. Your daddy defended his lands with it, and so would you. Swords were expensive symbols of status, since your average working man only had enough coin for the bit of iron/steel on the end of his stick. Horses ranged in price just like cars do today, so a fit warhorse was not in every noble's price range.

Armor was generally not like the gleaming, perfect metalwork we see in museums today. There is a reason these pieces of armor made it to museums: A smith would rather smelt down his own scrotum than cannibalize a priceless, irreplaceable masterwork. Kind of like how you guys react when someone brings up re-configuring their SKS as a bullpup, but more extreme. Your average soldier's kit was much different, it was fashioned from smelted pots and pans, and it can be pots and pans once again. I'll post some interesting pics and a video on this topic later. Basically, trash armor is actually a rare and precious find when you're an archaeologist.

In another thread, Strelok was talking about how North Korean grunts are actually prolific looters and extortionists in their own country. Because the government is too fucking poor to feed them, so they have to "buy" it themselves.

My question is, how does this work in practice? How should it change the way we imagine historic battles and sieges? Which armies have been the exception? I'm guessing the Romans and Spartans are the big ones here.

What got me thinking about this topic was the cataphract, aka "the completely covered." These guys bought their own shit, and it must have taken some Dubai-tier disposable income to fund your own heavy cavalry set. Heavy cavalry was analogous to the modern day MBT, so just imagine buying one of those yourself. So how did one qualify as a cataphract? Did you just start calling yourself that after strapping your horse with a certain amount of mail, or did the Cataphract Club send over someone to evaluate your armor-horse? What about Cheap Abdul who bought only the bare essentials, does he get in?

There is also the question of command. As a modern commander you rely on the fact that a unit of troops has the same training and kit as another. How do you deal with the fact that one knight's band, one pike square, one unit of X may have bought vastly different equipment than the other. I get the impression that they may have gone off of reputation alone. Because I remember reading about this time a band of Swiss mercenary pikemen were sent to finish off a weakened square of enemies, only to be routed themselves. Leading to the commander to reevaluate his mercenary investment.

c185cc No.329747

File: 1457617738143.jpg (129.38 KB, 650x366, 325:183, North-Korean-Army-5.jpg)

Here is a picture of the North Korean army employing a shooting technique they must have picked up from observing 3rd world veteran fighters: hip-firing with your eyes closed.


c185cc No.329748

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Here is the video I mentioned. The important part is this:

>The battle is remarkable because many of those who died in it were thrown into one of five mass graves with all their kit on, and these were dug up in 1928-30.

You also get to see some of the trash armor they wore, and the British ponce makes some good points about why trash armor is so rare.


c185cc No.329751

File: 1457618068076-0.gif (435.82 KB, 850x682, 425:341, f3.gif)

File: 1457618068076-1.jpg (64.29 KB, 736x332, 184:83, b97d72e6f275e10b1c79b6cf51….jpg)

File: 1457618068076-2.jpg (44.06 KB, 736x303, 736:303, 752d8c62bc33f482c0b4865b75….jpg)

Pictures of crap armor what doesn't protect you good.


c185cc No.329752

File: 1457618078282-0.jpg (52.93 KB, 312x434, 156:217, 14167015331_6cbe5a81ec.jpg)

File: 1457618078282-1.jpg (163.73 KB, 1002x800, 501:400, image3.jpg)

File: 1457618078283-2.jpg (29.53 KB, 236x820, 59:205, d004a4d75df2677d2cc2fef9ea….jpg)


68662b No.329791

>>329745

> cataphract, aka "the completely covered."

Most of the completely armored fellows in history were the rich/nobility. Like as you put it trash armor is from all the peasants. When it came to weapons if I recall the lord who lorded over his armed peasantry told them to get X and not Y. Armies back then were a complete clusterfuck.

Since we're on the topic of self-funded kits, cavalry just before and during WW1 was done in the same fashion, the Cavalryman had to pay for his horses boarding, gear and general care of his animal which either left him broke as fuck or if he were on the richer side of life a constant red in his books.


ec4548 No.329793

>>329747

>eyes closed

Racist.


c185cc No.329891

File: 1457636484402-0.jpg (112.82 KB, 550x550, 1:1, knight-renaissance-group-c….jpg)

File: 1457636484403-1.jpg (136.08 KB, 1024x683, 1024:683, mounted_knight_group_4_by_….jpg)

>>329791

>When it came to weapons if I recall the lord who lorded over his armed peasantry told them to get X and not Y.

So perhaps the way they created some semblance of order is that the commanders tell the lords what to tell their peasants? Sounds reasonable.

I'm looking for a certain image that shows what a clusterfuck a lord/knight's band was. In the picture, you have one or two people on horseback. Probably the knight and squire. Then you have some poorly armed peasants with at least one or two pikes and bows, and a servant boy. However, searching for it gives me only Warhammer, PlayMobil, and video game pictures. So here are some unrelated pics instead.

>>329793

>eyes closed

>Racist.

I have seen at least one asian, and if the dude on the left has his eyes open then I'm Hitler


9c49ee No.329903

>>329745

>Heavy cavalry was analogous to the modern day MBT

>>329791

>Most of the completely armored fellows in history were the rich/nobility.

There's the key: imagine the nobles as mayors of a dozen village. Yes, an MBT is expensive, but if you can tax hundreds of people for years, decades, even generations, then you can scrape together enough money for one. Especially when that money is gold, not imaginary numbers.


3c0f5c No.329917

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

HISTORY TIME

Almost every army throughout the entirety of history has had some sort of buy-your-own policy. The more successful armies sold equipment to their own soldiers.

Faggot OP thinks that the Romans gave it out for free if I read correctly, this is not so.

Although equipment was standardized to a degree the soldiers still had to pay for it themselves.

It works in a similar way for even the "dark ages" / feudal armies, where as another anon says, the peasants effectively buy their own equipment by being taxed by their lord, who provides them with whatever he thinks will cut it with his superiors while still leaving him solvent.

There are occasional cases of the mega-rich funding their own regiments, like the Black Lobsters of the English Civil War or the regiments raised by nobles for the 7 years war, but those are very much in the minority until Big Government and mass conscription came about and replaced them entirely.


77efb5 No.329938

Do note that, in most armies, officers still pay for their swords.

And we in Brazil paid for the full gear, sans firearms and ammo. And we paid for it twice.


399b4a No.329945

>>329917

>the peasants effectively buy their own equipment by being taxed by their lord

Technically that's still the case isn't it?


c185cc No.329954

File: 1457644116459.jpg (77.18 KB, 736x414, 16:9, sj8RLmt.jpg)

>>329903

>Yes, an MBT is expensive, but if you can tax hundreds of people for years, decades, even generations, then you can scrape together enough money for one.

True, but the question isn't so much how to afford it but how and and to what degree the configuration / model was kept standardized.

Imagine if you had to command a /k/ mercenary group, for example, the most internal consistency in equipment you could hope for is that the Rhodesia fanboys are all shooting .308.

>>329917

>Faggot OP thinks that the Romans gave it out for free if I read correctly

I said I guessed so, you amazingly pompous smegma-goblin.

>the peasants effectively buy their own equipment by being taxed by their lord, who provides them with whatever he thinks will cut it with his superiors

In other words, they do not buy their own equipment. This is indeed how it works today.


d2eacf No.329957

>>329938

I am not sure about it since I was a shitty private but our officers were simply charged in their paycheck for their sword and I think there was a refund if they chose not to keep it after retirement.


3c0f5c No.329959

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>329945

Pretty much, given that big govt needs to fund their army with the people's money.

In some ways, the older systems were fairer on the peasantry, because at least their money stayed around the locality, through church tithes and barony taxation- because of how decentralized pre-instant communication countries were, a lot of areas were just left to their own devices, and only the major cities contributed directly to govt/monarch funding.

A good example of this is most of the Tudor rebellions, for example, Kent, a county just below London geographically speaking, flipped their shit because they were told to gibs more to the Monarch (and London by extension), instead of having local govt take care of it.

That system also bleeds into why armies of old functioned as they did- because it took so much time to organize things, buy-your-own was almost always more efficient (at least until the renaissance and the era of rent-a-landschnekt).

A previous anon talked about reputation being a decider, this is true to some extent, meshing with the buy-your-own policies; richer areas could afford flashier troops.

Taking London as an example again (most of my knowledge is from the early modern period), the Tower Hamlets trained bands were better equipped and larger than any other, save for magnate (mega-rich noble) raised regiments, simply because they lived in the vicinity of big govt and thus had the funds for flash.

It also helped that most cities and towns were coastal, which meant merchants were easy to control- trade tariffs usually provided most of the government funding, which is why wars were started over shit like the price of wool.

>>329954 don't make me start smugposting.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct, but also still wrong as a matter of semantics, because the money being used to purchase their equipment, while in the hands of their lord, comes from their own pocket (or, more likely, from the sales of their produce).


3c0f5c No.329965

>>329959

clarification for >>329954 credit again, he is double correct as in the case of rich areas, at least ones that had a high amount of trade, because then the money comes in part from merchants who aren't going to be fighting but still count as part of the populace (or as transient moneybags).


9c49ee No.329969

>>329954

>>329954

>True, but the question isn't so much how to afford it but how and and to what degree the configuration / model was kept standardized.

You can't really standardize that kind of armour, because it must be fitted to the wearer. Although some kinds were mass produced, they were still made by craftsmen, not machines. So it was kind of impossible to properly standardize them.

On the other hand, they needed a lot less maintenance. Yes, they had to take care of their equipment, but they didn't have to replace the stabby piece of a spear after every 250 thrust. And they also didn't have suppressive stabbing.

Basically the only thing you had to standardize to a degree were arrows.


3c0f5c No.329977

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Some more because I enjoy military history and procrastinating over actually important essays.

>the question of command

Ever look at battle plans for just about anything prior to the era of instant communication (and pas that, really. Maybe ww2 is a good cut-off point)?

The most complex maneuvre is going to be a total surround or surprise buttsex or something like that, because everything had to be done in advance. The topic of soldiery in this thread is essentially levied, unprofessional troops, which means the majority of armies up until the 18th century.

So you have huge masses of men and no way to quickly chat to their commanders, so you take the easiest possible route - walk at those guys. If your guys fuck up and run away, you should have more guys behind the first ones. That's why "roman" maniple-type tactics (chequerboard formations) experienced a resurgence in the renaissance (and other levy armies, like Napoleon's - that's why the French fought in columns), because as previous anon stated, most guys are going to shit their pants and run away if they're just regular dudes.

So when envisioning old battles, think of 50,000 pairs of shat pants and 5000 battalion commanders trying not to soil themselves because all they have to go on is a piece of paper saying "you go that way and attack anything in your way".

Even a flanking maneuvre took incredible amounts of effort to coordinate. I like the Chinese Wars of Three Kingdoms examples - they only ever used elite soldiers to do seemingly simple things like take a different path to attack the enemy rear, because you can't really move enough of the levied guys to make it effective, and if you did, they wouldn't arrive until 3 days after the battle, if they hadn't shit themselves and run away at the sight of 40,000 enemy guys running at them (and away from the actual battle, where they had promptly soiled themselves and routed).

Death rates are historically really low, even in ww1. Most deaths and injuried occured when the shitters were clubbing eachother in an effort to escape the big scary guys on horseback.

Which is another reason for "roman-style" tactics, and why no large army fought skirmishes, because even for captains, controlling so many guys is a handful when they're basically retarded in the face of battle.


c185cc No.330077

File: 1457651391250-0.jpg (56.88 KB, 488x294, 244:147, 6a00d83453ac7c69e2017c36f4….jpg)

File: 1457651391250-1.jpg (177.71 KB, 500x333, 500:333, marius-mules.jpg)

>You can't really standardize that kind of armour, because it must be fitted to the wearer.

Surely these guys would disagree? A big reason for their success was that you can count on every soldier having the same amount of protection.

I dunno what you think I mean by standardized, since there were obviously no machine production lines. But a bunch of bent metal plates or a vest of chain mail could be easily made to fit a huge number of soldiers.

>>329977

>The most complex maneuvre is going to be a total surround or surprise buttsex or something like that

That is true, but I was thinking more along the lines of, when you send your block of big boys with pikes to the east side of your army to prevent a cavalry encirclement, how do you know they are holding pikes and not wooden spoons because they haven't been doing so well with their shops lately? I exaggerate of course, and the question has been elucidated on quite a bit in this thread. You would want to entrust the anti-encirclement tactics to the troops you pulled from one of your more well-off districts, and be aware of which one of your lords is cheap enough to equip his men with sheets of dried macaroni instead of chain mail.

I'm guessing then, that if you wanted to be a Roman legionary, you had to be able to pay the minimum amount required to get your equipment package? I wonder if armies ever offered budget and deluxe deals where you get the shittier shoes if you don't pay extra.

It is a bit fairer on the peasantry when it's only the people that join / support the war have to pay for the fancy military equipment, but I'll stop talking before there's a 500 post derailment.


9c49ee No.330092

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>330077

You do realize that one Roman actually said that those armours had more knots than the dress of a woman, right? They were fucking wonders of their age, and only an empire could equip whole armies with it. You just need a fuckton of hours to produce all those small metal plates.

When Rome started to decline, they switched to chainmail, because that was easier to produce and maintain. Even Byzantium used that instead of the lorica segmentata.

And the Romans equipment wasn't this uniform, they used everything until it rusted away. Reenactors obviously don't go for the rugged, beaten look of an old legion using mis-matched equipment, because we are used to this image of a completely standardized Roman legion.

> But a bunch of bent metal plates or a vest of chain mail could be easily made to fit a huge number of soldiers.

Yes, if you fed the smiths to make all those metal plates. There were armours like vid related, but you needed rich cities to produce them. And economics of scale didn't reduce the costs when every small bit was made by humans who didn't even have a truly standardized way to measure distance or weight.

And armour is closer to clothes than to guns. Yet even uniforms were an uncommon thing.


c17411 No.330094


c17411 No.330097


582cec No.330179

Put simply, in a modern world running standardized equipment within a "Buy your own shit" PMC is as simple as "Buy this equipment or GTFO".

I can reasonably see something like this happening way back in the old days, but I have no historical backing for this.


0d7eb2 No.331662

>>330094

>>330097

Holy fuck man I've been looking for this website god only knows why I couldn't remember the name of it.


4d5925 No.334935

Looting would have been so much fun back in the day.

I wonder if many fights broke out amongst the victors over picking the bodies of the fallen.


ec4548 No.334988

>>330092

>that cunt again

Stop watching him and your intelligence will increase.


a6e693 No.335076

File: 1458498014831.jpg (1015.3 KB, 1231x1552, 1231:1552, 1441189565754.jpg)

>>334988

Whats wrong with Lindy? please do tell.


2d9dc6 No.335086

>>329917

you're fucking retarded.

Post Marian reform the legionaries were provided their weapons and armor, whether or not they were stipend from their pay I don't know, But the Roman Empire provided its troops with standardized arms and were able to conquer as much as they did because of it. Not until the Parthians, Jews, Germans and North Africans rebelled/invaded almost simultaneously was Rome's millitary power checked.


e76142 No.335295

>>334988

End thyself, Lindy is a legendary mememaster




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