/k/ - Weapons

>>333132

The plan is to just not actually use nukes.

>Why did our governments abandon plans to safeguard our populations?

A combination of >>333178 and the fact that all major Western governments are currently occupied by people who's feelings about non-elites dying range between neutrality and happiness.

Incidentally, not caring about your own population dying removes a significant motivation to avoid starting a nuclear exchange even if things stop going your way. Which explains why Russia evidently believes it might still need these bunkers at some point.

>>333186

>range between neutrality and happiness

>_<

>>333218

Not sure what you're saying here, sorry.

>>333221

Just sad at the state of things.

>>333132

It became clear that even if you did save a decent % of your population it would only mean they survive the initial exchange to die of starvation within a couple of months.

>>333270

Most home bunkers are designed for conventional bombing and lack the air filtration and storage needed for nuclear weapons. This didn't stop people marketing them as nuclear bunkers but marketing does not a nuclear bunker make.

>>333274

What was the recommended time to stay in the shelter after the bombs? I can't see those little ones holding enough food and water to support a family of 4 much more than 3 weeks.

>>333274

>filter gets clogged

What then?

>>333270

>Second pic

>Smoking in a bunker

Unless they had air purification, well…

>>333274

>air filter

>radiation

I don't see that working

>>333278

2 days minimum, 2 weeks very strongly recommended.

Oddly enough, Soviet manuals from the era are not this generous with stay time and claim that after 3 days you gotta be out of the shelter and back to work.

>>333278

I think it was about 2 weeks for the least.

>>333279

Nuclear fallout from an airburst bomb doesn't last as long as most people think. Also I don't think filters ended up being clogged that often.

>>333281

anything that stops fallout particles from getting into the air supply greatly helps

>>333282

>Oddly enough, Soviet manuals from the era are not this generous with stay time and claim that after 3 days you gotta be out of the shelter and back to work.

>back to work?

Doing what? Scooping the irradiated ashes of your dog with a shovel? Collecting artifacts for Motherland?

>>333282

>>333285

from what ive seen they all state time needed in shelter is directly proportional to outside radiation level and distance from blast and i don't see any suggestions for 3 days

http://englishrussia.com/2016/03/14/old-soviet-civil-defense-book/

>>333285

Rebuilding motherland. Soviets had a bunch of spare parts just lying around to fix their civilization in case of a nuclear war. It's all rusty shit (or sold) now, but it was ready back then.

One example is electric transformers, Soviets had replacements for their entire electric grid in storage, whereas America and Canada had NONE.

ZERO replacements.

Far worse than that, the transformers America and Canada needed were built in West Germany, as part of a deal to help their economy.

So once the EMP pulses took out our grid, we had to hope that West Germany survives, builds replacement transformers, then ships them across the Atlantic to us.

In the case Soviets wanted to invade us conventionally, they could do a limited high altitude nuclear EMP strike, and North America wouldn't have power for six months in the best case scenario.

After the cold war was over and we looked at Soviet capabilities and battle plans, our politicians shat themselves. NAFTA was partly about moving some of our transformer production from Germany to Mexico.

how do you know they are not there for something that has yet to happen?

>>333282

>after 3 days you gotta be out of the shelter and back to work

That was the USSRs way of thinking for the cold war, they didn't think of the exchange as the end but rather the start of a war they would drag on for years.

everything points to this being the winning strategy if you really want to define "win" when talking about total nuclear war

>>333288

>So once the EMP pulses took out our grid, we had to hope that West Germany survives, builds replacement transformers, then ships them across the Atlantic to us.

There were plenty of domestic built transformers and its not like they're particularly hard to build as long as you have access to Steel, Copper, and transformer oil which itself is actually the hardest part to produce and the US was the largest manufacturer at the time which lead to quite a few problems with Dioxin/PCB spills to say the least

>>333286

I'll post the ones I have once I get home. They definitely had 3 days and also there were some nice pictures of people cleaning up collapsed gommieblocks

Our governments have not even disclosed EMP proofing techniques that have been discovered.

>>333312

EMP proofing something isn't exactly top of the line technology

>>333316

You could probably design a high tech system to generate counter EM waves but why bother when you have to put crucial electronics in a underground bunker anyway due to fallout, and anything that would still destroy electronics in a faraday cage would require massive amounts of power to generate counter EM waves

>>333316

I believe a lot of optical fiber networks are designed to withstand it now

>>333325

I thought it was fairly easy as keeping some of your systems offline to restart the ones that got hit

>>333326

i think so

>>333327

>I thought it was fairly easy as keeping some of your systems offline to restart the ones that got hit

Depends entirely on the size of the blast, electronics that are off can still be damaged

>>333326

Problem is that radiation rapidly destroys electronics and there's no way to shield it without heavy lead encasement. Alpha and beta radiation is already stopped by outermost layer of matter and doesn't do shit really, but gamma-radiation penetrates thorugh 3 feet of solid lead. Ionizing of microelectronics deteriorates the circuits, creating glitches and eventually causing failure, so any electronics on the surface would still be destroyed over time due to fallout even with fiber optics. Also Gamma radiation literally breaks down molecular bonds in matter and fiber optics will still be damaged.

>>333341

How about we design shit that runs on gamma rays so when the bomb goes off it just makes everything work even better.

>>333288

The power grid in both America and Canada is still beyond vulnerable. A handful of men could knock out power without any trouble.

>>333434

Yeah but it would only take a week or so to repair.

That's an improvement over months or possibly years, during which an invasion might take place.

>>333316

The problems with EM proofing are sheer material costs and the limits of physics.

In terms of material, if there's a mile long power cable, to shield it would require several miles of metal for the EM cage.

As for the limits of physics… some things just can't be shielded. Sensors operating in the electromagnetic spectrum have to be open to it, and anything connected to the sensor is also vulnerable. A sensor isn't just a camera or radar by the way, it's also a radio aerial and things like that.

>>333343

WEED LMAO

>>333312

a faraday cage?

that's all you need for EMP proofing really unless it's a sensor then that's fucked.

>>333132

West Germany build several thousand Civilian Bunkers and spend a lot of money to update old ones from the Second World War.

Most of that was done in secret.

http://www.geschichtsspuren.de/artikel/bunker-luftschutz-zivilschutz-/194-zivilschutzanlagen-ueberblick.html

In the last years they have started to sell them and most got turned into apartments you can rent or buy.

>>333490

At the moment, I'm reading Metro 2033.

Do you think any of our subway stations can serve as civil protection for the populace?

>>333288

Everytime I learn a new thing about Soviet/Russian military or Cold War. I wonder how the hell would have happened if the Soviet Union used normal economics instead of marxist/kike shit…

What country would survive agaisnt that!?!?!?!?

>>333645

It's arguable communism is the reason they had all that shit and capitalist governments simply don't plan that far ahead. It's just commie states are economically fucked up the ass.

>>333652

there must be a third way…

>>333132

>Why did our governments abandon plans to safeguard our populations?

- Anti-Nuclear public sentiment

- Theory of Mutually Assure Destruction

The End of the Cold War

It's a common recurrence for Western governments to have to rebuild what only 20 years they had dismantled…or to simply claim a threat no longer exists.

>>333270

Office of Civil Defense.

>>333272

>It became clear that even if you did save a decent % of your population it would only mean they survive the initial exchange to die of starvation within a couple of months.

Not even close Ausfriend, at least as far as the US was concerned. Significant testing and operations went into stockpiling goods, shielding agricultural centers, and encouraging self-reliance among the public.

>Most home bunkers are designed for conventional bombing and lack the air filtration and storage needed for nuclear weapons. This didn't stop people marketing them as nuclear bunkers but marketing does not a nuclear bunker make.

Air filtration is a concern, but not paramount. Sufficient storage for two weeks to a month of supplies was plenty.

>>333278

Two weeks, this is based on the dissipation of fallout.

>>333312

Yes, they have. EMP hardening isn't exactly difficult and you can easily obtain all the testing data…I've got nearly 300GB on nuclear effects testing documents, ranging from ocular effects to advanced defense electronics hardening.

>>333576

Parts of both US and Russian Civil Defense shelters where in subways.

>>333218

> emojis

> on 8chan

God no.

>>333692

If communism is (in practise) the state taking controll over the economy, and capitalism is the state letting the economy run wild: then the third way would either be no economy at all, or to have the economy on a leash, to ensure that it can still do it's things but doesn't get too cocky.

An example would be the modern Russian military complex in comparison to the US.

>>333749

If you are interested to learn more, download the megafolder from the Ark >>317148 , that has a lot of stuff about NBC protection.

The Nuclear Survival pdf from this thread >>327579 is also a must read.

Other interesting things to find on the Internet are "Fourth Generation Nuclear Weapons" by Andre Gsponer and "The Germans and the Nuclear Question" by Wolfgang Krieger.

>>333749

It was discovered during Upshot-Knothole, during Shot Grable that the precursor waveform (shockwave) would BTFO of anything not hardened.

In the video, you'll see the exterior of objects burning off from the intense heat, then the waveform moves across and fucks everything.

it was a 15KT airburst at a height 500ft, small potatoes when you consider modern warheads are 150KT or more.

Ground detonations are utilized to create mass amounts of fallout, this is useful in a countervalue attack if you're looking to create a more significant radiation threat, but want to reduce the physical damage to targets.

>>333132

A little fun fact: built under Helsinki are the largest underground bomb shelters in the world. And also miscallaneous random stuff like coal silos and an artificial lake and 60+km of tunnels.

Basically every single building has its own shelter.

bump

>>333770

Virtually every building built during and after 60s has some form of fallout shelter.

In the school i used to be in they used it for storage.

Oh and of course there are some occasional larger ones here and there, though it seems like they are pretty much run down these days.