I want to get a .308 battlerifle but 1) people say the G3 and its variants suck and 2) I don't like the m14. What does that leave me with?
I really want to get a FAL. However, after searching around, FAL's are apparently very expensive and hard to find. The cheapest one on Gunbroker is 1400 bucks, a DPMS FAL. Are FAL's even still widely manufactured? Why are they so expensive? Are there surplus variants that are cheaper? If not the FAL, G3, or m14, what other battle-rifles are there?
If 1400 is too expensive, you got into the wrong hobby. The FAL is a great rifle and your only other options off the top of my head would be a fudd semiauto or an AR10 (new or old). Parts kits for many rifles are drying up or straight up gone. The G3/CETME are not bad rifles, they just have a little stiff recoil due to their method of operation.
>If not the FAL, G3, or m14, what other battle-rifles are there?
>people say the G3 and its variants suck
They don't suck, in fact if you intend to only ever shoot one load and keep the rifle in the exact same configuration they are better than the FAL.
>If 1400 is too expensive, you got into the wrong hobby.
>The G3/CETME are not bad rifles, they just have a little stiff recoil due to their method of operation.
They are also quite sensitive to changes in load and the addition of muzzle devices such as a suppressor. There are people who have destroyed the stock of their G3/PTR/etc by running a suppressor with the wrong locking piece.
We could go until we were blue in the face on the pros and cons if G3 vs FAL,in the end they're both early Cold War battle rifles with similar accuracy, size and ergonomics which boils it down to snappy and slightly lighter with the G3 or smoother and slightly heavier with the FAL in my opinion
I feel like I'm living in the dark ages of small arms. Everything is homogenized and uniqueness is disappearing. I just got a good paying job in January and want a fall but I need to save up money and by the time that happens I'm scared there won't be any left and they'll be even more expensive
Build an AR10 then? I love mine
You do know that DSA makes all new production FALs right?
Somebody should build a dissipator ar-15 in 50 Beo or 458 Socom with a1 style woodfurniture
G28 is a tack driver if you can afford it.
Sexy, but lacks the ability to mount a bayonet.
>50 Beo or 458 Socom
Why the meme cartridges?
What's the verdict on DSA, anyway?
I've heard that product quality took a hit when they switched from parts kits to all-new production, but that was years ago.
Big heavy rounds being shot out of a space gun.
Look at my first picture. Imagine that style of flash hinder being scaled up for 50 beo.
>Dark age of firearms
No faggot. You're living the end times of metallic catridges. Once telescopic ammo becomes the norm and caseless becomes more durable you'll see fuck loads of changes. except the AR they'll probably find a way to make a drop in conversion for it even if it costs them the entire defense budget for ten years.
Aren't we going to replace 223 with 6mm?
As long as it fits into an AR and doesn't cost anything to replace it then yeah. But to answer your question, never ever will it be replaced. Serious fuck ups need to happen for anyone up there to start considering shit.
It seems to be 6.5mm, and all bets are off the table.
>except the AR they'll probably find a way to make a drop in conversion for it even if it costs them the entire defense budget for ten years.
That would be the Garand->M14 all over again.
i keep reading the title as 7.62x51 Butterflies
Telescoping ammo will be a thing, but Caseless might not, by the time they figure out caseless there will be a new method of propulsion.
What is /k/'s verdict on the FAL OSW?
Have I fallen for the JA 2 1.13 meme or is it actually any good?
you're not the only one.
I expect to get butterflies when I start accruing parts to build an AR-10…does that count?
I'm planning on building a grendel AR…and an AR-AK. Fun project, I hope.
Who here has the Lee Reloading thing, where you use a hammer instead of a press to seat the bullet?
not /op/, but in a similar situation
Just recently got a job, will have shitload of bucks to throw at guns.
I have the choice between either a used, surplus FAL, a chinese SVD clone, or a sporty AR-10.
I mostly want it to be able to hit plate up to 300 m, and be able to not give a fuck about maintenance without the thing blowing appart and/or in my hands.
What do, /k/?
I want me-self a battle raifu…
>people say the G3 and its variants suck
They're fucking wrong. I'm hitting targets at 800m with mine.
>I don't like the m14.
I sympathize, but it's also something that can be made to shoot well if you have the money.
>What does that leave me with?
AR-10 variant or SCAR.
Also, you could always get a VEPR in .308. That's probably the cheapest option.
the AR platform is the most self-made out there right now, though I've read the ar-10 doesn't have anywhere near the level of cross-brand compatibility.
But I bet if you build an AR-10 with a piston system and a nickel boron BCG you'd have a very low maintenance system, though perhaps not as low as what a bolt action wwii mauser would put up with.
> VEPR in .308
If he's going to get a meme gun, get the meme caliber to go with it. My $.02. I was going to attach a picture of an ar-10 in -54r but I guess it doesn't work that way. Too bad.
DSA makes some NICE rifles. They're the closest thing to NoDak Spud we have for FALs.
That thing looks obscenely front heavy.
>If he's going to get a meme gun, get the meme caliber
VEPR are current production rifles. Definitely not a "meme gun". Plus, mag conversions for NATO mags exist.
>I was going to attach a picture of an ar-10 in -54r but I guess it doesn't work that way. Too bad.
I was thinking of getting one in 6.5 Creedmoor, to be honest.
>meme this, meme that
just shut up while you can, dumb fuck
no, I don't want more Stoner fuck ups, thank you.
Eugene Stoner was a mistake
I just put a 17 inch crack in my glass coffee table you massive faggot.
>There is a 308 AK that takes PMags and comes with an optics rail
>You can't buy it without paying Israel
File: 4eba8f0c3ecae68⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 195.51 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, 4eba8f0c3ecae68da8f0181f79….jpg)
secondhand market. just make sure you arent buying it from a jew.
dont forget to donate to isreal! goy!
There's nothing wrong with the stoner system or DI rifles. This is an actual meme that should die.
The Stoner system is alright, but there's no reason to drag something unrelated like DI into a discussion on it.
They also make a full-auto version of it, just in case you need extra removal power
>mfw I didn't buy an M77 when they were $499
>there's nothing wrong with the Stoner system
actually there is: the whole system is built around a failed cartridge
I wouldn't call either .223 or .308 failed cartridges. The cartridges were and still are fine hunting choices. You can debate whether they failed as military cartridges all day long.
wait, wait, wait ….
>I want to get a .308
>the whole system is built around a failed cartridge
The crap are you smoking, OP? Or did you mean DI, like >>484747 was assuming…?
I like the wooden furniture. Although I like
better. Also, they make a triangular handguard, at least in rifle length.
What about an M77? The were imported around 3 years ago. Yugo AK in 7.62 NATO.
in canada? i thought rcmp would piss their pants over an 'ak pattern'
that gun is beautiful though, i closed and opened the picture three times, keep coming back to it
How would a a DMR with the recoil action of an an-94 perform ?
It sounds like what you want is a Vepr. They're solid rifles you can get for about eight hundred bucks chambered in pretty much whatever you want. Better quality than your average AK, not as expensive as a FAL or M1A (or a fucking Galil), and the availability is good enough that you shouldn't have trouble finding what you want and getting a hold of one.
If you're looking to spend less on the weapon, you're probably not looking for a battle rifle at all, and anyway it really only goes up from there. If you don't want an AK, then you might have to suck it up and deal with a Stoner style gun, because the west fucking loves them. If you insist on a FAL because of the novelty of owning the right hand of the free world, then you are going to have to accept that you will be breaking the bank and scrounging for parts to build that history you want to own so much. If you want a gun you can use to impress people at the range, then you'll want to give the M1A another chance, because anyone who sees you shooting grandpappy's rifle is going to be consumed with immediate and copious amounts of jelly.
Part of the process is not only ruling out the guns or features you don't want, but also recognizing that every choice has drawbacks, and figuring out which of those you're willing to accept when making your selection. What will you refuse to budge on, and what are you willing to deal with to get what you want?
Some southern folks internet provider shows up as maplefolk here.
>because anyone who sees you shooting grandpappy's rifle is going to be consumed with immediate and copious amounts of jelly.
I can confirm that. Springfield M1a's though are a hit or miss in terms of quality.
Don't leave out the PTR-91. I have one and it's a sweet shooter. The GIR type can be had for about $800. I personally own the FR.
I like the AR-15 platform and the supermarket of customization out there for it, but want something heartier than a 5.56. Is there something in this thread that would appeal to those sensibilities?
Yeah she is a big girl but thats what you get with piston ARs. Supposedly HK is making a new variant for the seals that is much lighter.
I know pple think Hks are meme guns but I liek them all the same.
>I like the AR-15 platform and the supermarket of customization out there for it, but want something heartier than a 5.56.
Assuming you want to stick with the AR15 rather than move up to the AR10…
Sensible choice - 300BLK
"I dont care about parts interchangeability and having to buy new magazines" - 7.62x39
"Just fuck my wallet up fam" - 458 SOCOM
"Oh shit nigger what are you doing?!?" - 50 Beowulf
Never said new you blind nigger just that caseless needs more durability from moisture or cooking off and we will see new shit FOR caseless. Like instead of the G11 not being field serviceable we'll get new shit from other companies hopefully making it simpler.
Or you could just go with a 6.5 Grendel and not be retarded. But there's nothing wrong with 5.56. Put 77 grain bullets in that thing and it will work for almost anything.
>77 grain bullets
Wow, its fucking nothing. The NZDF and other militaries are already issuing 77gr 5.56 as standard.
And that's ignoring all the other retarded aspects of 6.5, if you want a DMR move up to an AR10 and stop lieing to yourself.
Anything under 100gr and youre wasting powder.
Did a 6x caliber rape your dog or something?
>, if you want a DMR move up to an AR10 and stop lieing to yourself.
DMs are fine as standard 5.56 rifles using 62 grain ammo right now. For longer range threats, the EBR exists. There is nothing wrong with 5.56. I know that the armchair makes you feel like you know what you're talking about, but you don't.
Learn to spell as well. This is inexcusable with spellcheck.
Anything else is just fluff
Do you really need a 308 battle rifle? Reaaaaaaaalllllyyyyy?
You must be a big guy
Capreolinae Internet Defense Force detected.
What's next Bullwinkle, going to tell us that no "real hunter" needs more than one shot?
>He doesn't enjoy stuff that makes cover into concealment
I know it's crazy to think about if all you've ever shot is paper, but things have this strange tendency to run away and get behind cover when they're being shot at.
>female police officers cartridge
>childrens intro to guns
Confirmed for 12 year old police officer scared of groundhogs.
I don't most people here need guns, but it's our right to have whatever. I have a CZ 550 with a mannlicher stock in .270 win, and guess what? I have absolutely no practical use for it. I just like it.
the AR system is built around the .223, moron. AR-10's are notorious for having feeding issues because of the cartridge/system mismatch, which is why i'm avoiding them.
I actually own an FM-47, speaking of the devil.
I just recently got into 300 Win magnum and realize that bigger is better.
That's similar to the volcanic pistol ammo, it's a really low velocity.
> more durability from moisture or cooking off
>when the propellant is exposed and may just burn off (not explode but just burn)
Caseless is nothing more than a dumb meme. There's a reason cartridges are still around.
The most you'll get is something like a combustible case but you run into the same risk as the case just setting itself on fire and probably setting off the primer.
It's only really good for slow rates of fire
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Get an AK. You can customize is more easily than G3 and FAL, recoil is more manageable, magazine holds more rounds and 7.62x29 still packs a punch and isn't as inacurate as some people would want you to believe
ask your girl what she thinks she's shooting at, considering her front sight blade fell off
>OP wants a full power cartridge gun
>Suggests an intermediate cartridge gun, and on top of that, one that can not have a free floated barrel and is not known for accuracy to begin with
>compares modern hi-lo caseless
>to musket era technology
Do you have any idea how retarded that is? Compare modern spitzer cartridges to musket balls, or original paper cartridges.
Balkan has the same muzzle velocity as regular 40x53mm, but has more range due to a better BC.
Name me a centerfire semi-auto rifle that can have a true free-floated barrel.
Hardmode: In current production
Super hardmode: Available on the US civilian market for less than $2000
>Balkan has the same muzzle velocity as regular 40x53mm
Which is still pretty slow.
it might not be, those holes are too large for a bleed in barrel acceleration, it acts more like a mortar than high low velocity.
PTR-91. How dumb are you?
It's not truly freefloated, it's partially freefloated.
I mean it's not that bad, but the cocking tube is still clamped onto the barrel.
If the cocking handle is on the receiver then it would've truly been freefloated like a bolt action rifle.
Still, locking surface consistency also affects accuracy.
Pic semi related.
>I mean it's not that bad, but the cocking tube is still clamped onto the barrel.
Except it's not. The cocking tube never touches the tripple frame.
>If the cocking handle is on the receiver then it would've truly been freefloated like a bolt action rifle.
But it is attached only to the receiver. I know because I have one.
Your pic is also stupid. The tripple frame is attached to the barrel, but doesn't touch the handguards or the cocking tube, and the handguards also attach to the cocking tube.
I don't think you understand what the blue lines mean, the blue lines are parts of the barrel untouched.
>The triple frame is attached to the barrel
My mistake, but the triple frame also makes it non freefloat (which is why it's red lined)
>My mistake, but the triple frame also makes it non freefloat (which is why it's red lined)
Not unless it's attached to something else, else a flash hider would also make it non-free-float. The harmonics are going to remain consistent regardless.
>The harmonics are going to remain consistent regardless.
You don't need it to be freefloated for that to happen either, it can be clamped and this can happen.
The harmonics are going to be consistent yes, but you'll also have tilting because of that triple frame.
>You don't need it to be freefloated for that to happen either, it can be clamped and this can happen.
No, not really. Sure, this only affects extreme ranges, but clamping doesn't solve the issue, which is why nobody does it anymore.
>The harmonics are going to be consistent yes, but you'll also have tilting because of that triple frame.
The tripple frame is a very light piece, I'd be surprised if it has any noticeable effect.
I'm not saying clamping solves the issue, I'm saying you can also get consistency from clamping (Older precision semi auto rifles used multiple clamping points that supported each-other making them very complicated and heavy)
There are other things you can use to get better consistency, like boltface lockup, trigger timing
(the shorter the time the less the gun moves after you've pulled the trigger), consistent loads (this includes evenly distributed rounds) etc.
What I'm saying is freefloating isn't the most important or least important and the AK-47 is also decent for dealing with cover.
If he wants 308 power he can also go for 6.5 grendel.
6.5 creedmoor heavy loads out at distance have similar ballistics to 300 win mag and that impresses the shit out of me
> Everything is homogenized and uniqueness is disappearing.
I take it you're a faggot who thinks the appearance of a firearm means anything. Also
>complaining about homogeneity and non-uniqueness
Look at a picture of WWI rifles and come back to me after you see how similar all of them look.
>Hard to find
HAHAHAHA! DSA makes 'em by the shitload. AIM Surplus and a bunch of other sites stock 'em.
Pros of FAL:
1) Adjustable gas system, so you can tune it to run with whatever ammo you use or crank up the gas when it gets really dirty/caked in mud; there's also a setting on the gas plug for launching rifle grenades
2) Extremely simple disassembly for maintenance; literally just flip a lever and pull it apart. Even easier than the AK, astonishingly enough.
3) Great accuracy; they're not sub-MOA sniper rifles, but you can hit a man at several yards using irons and putting a scope on it will let you really reach out and touch someone.
4) Pretty good ergonomics. I prefer the FAL's left-mounted charging handle to the AR's "ambidextrous" charging handle, and anything is better than the G3's charging handle.
5) Extremely robust and reliable design; all steel, and they run forever; one rifle known as Ol' Dirty had fired over 100,000 rounds without cleaning before it finally jammed up. Not every rifle will be so lucky, obviously, so don't expect to be able to never clean your rifle.
6) Really easy to upgrade. Unlike on an AK, you can replace the top cover with a railed one for optics and it'll be rock solid and retain zero.
7) Robust magazines; except for Moses Mags (polymer mags that get good reviews), they're all solid steel.
Damn good gun.
Now for the cons of the FAL:
1) Heavy as fuck, and there's only so much you can do to alleviate that. This is an all-steel rifle, and a big one at that. Now, that weight isn't unreasonable, and it actually helps to make the FAL one of the lightest recoilling battle rifles out there, but you try humping it 5 miles at a stretch.
2) The iron sights suck. The rear sight has an aperture that's just slightly too small for low-light visibility, and many of the rear sights on metric rifles will actually WOBBLE back and forth, which is not conducive to accuracy. There's good replacement options though; DSA has an A2-style rear sight with two different apertures and click-adjustable windage, and RTG actually has an adapter that lets you use HK G3 rear sights; either one will work fine as an upgrade. And, of course, adding optics helps with the sight issue as well.
3) A lot of the FAL's made from parts kits are hit-or-miss in terms of quality; buy a DSA and don't look back.
4) DSA is pretty much the only game in town when it comes to customizing or upgrading your rifle, and when one company has a monopoly, they don't feel the need to lower their prices. That said, DSA's prices aren't unreasonable compared to other battle rifles (and especially the G3/PTR-91), but still not as cheap as an AR-15.
Wtf is this fudd shit? Your preferred weapon might be a clarinet or a cock, but its clearly not a gun.
>Humping a FAL
>Only 5 miles
>2 heavy 4 me
Swear on me mum you little lads need to throw a fuckin ruck on and go walk for a day once a month
Ruger SR762. Can accept a wide array of .308 mags. It is piston, which is irrelevant to me but others like that shit.
if you do a wiki search for 'free floating barrel' (which has a cute picture of a .408 CheyTec) that part of the discussion makes noticeably more sense.
Bro, please. An M240 is heavy for 5 miles.
yes guns use alot of photography and musical lingo, harmonics deal with how the barrel vibrates and twists when a shot is fired and ways to have consistent twists and vibrations.
>I'm an ignorant faggot; please rape my face.
>There are other things you can use to get better consistency, like boltface lockup, trigger timing
Lucky for you, the G3 type rifles are quite god at this. If you want to get even more out of it, you can go the PSG-1 route and get sub-MOA accuracy out of them. Of course, with some trigger work mine is shooting right at MOA with 118LR loads.
>What I'm saying is freefloating isn't the most important or least important and the AK-47 is also decent for dealing with cover.
AK is not really a platform you can take out to 800m, unlike a .308 battle rifle, which is what they are for. If you're worried about cover, plenty of loads will do, and I wouldn't discount the 5.56 in this regard either. Like the AR unreliability myth, this is highly overstated.
> 6.5 creedmoor heavy loads out at distance have similar ballistics to 300 win mag and that impresses the shit out of me
Me too, but it seems only options for that are AR-10 right now. Would be cool to see older rifles fitted with this caliber.
>but you can hit a man at several yards using irons and putting a scope on it will let you really reach out and touch someone.
How much more interesting would the world be if rifling wasn't invented?
>Thinks the AR is built around .223
>Doesn't realize the AR-10 came first an was designed around 7.62x51mm
>Thinks AR-10's have a reputation for feed issues
You're woefully ignorant. The downside to the AR-10 platform is the magazines not being standardized, and with the military adopting the DPMS/SR-25 mag, that's becoming the standard now.
Saying the AR was built around .223 and the AR-10 jams because of a "mismatch" in caliber and design is like saying the M1A jams because the Mini-14 was built around .223.
Smoothbore tank guns can accurately hit targets out to between 4 and 5 kilometers. I imagine advances in sights, projectile design, and muzzle velocity would still let you hit shit out to several hundred yards, but not with anywhere near the precision we have today.
Bitch, nobody made this anonymous message board a contest to prove how manly you are. OP is clearly a normie no-guns, you think he's been through basic? He's either a fattie or has pipe cleaner arms.
And yes, the FAL is fucking heavy. Now grab that 81mm base plate and show me what you really got.
>doesn't know what barrel harmonics are, yet tries to insult others
>a fucking leaf
Shut the fuck up, you syrup-guzzling faggot. Nobody asked you.
Fucking praise Kek Strelok you absolute fucking legend
Jesus Christ… barrel "harmonics" is a fudd myth. Barrels change alignment because of temperature differentials affecting materials differently, or different amounts of materials, or improperly manufactured alloys etc. It has nothing to do with "harmonics" or gremlins or whatever other kooky story you care to mention.
>And yes, the FAL is fucking heavy.
You are a turd licking faggot if you think 9lbs dry is heavy. A fucking AR is 7lbs dry, and you can carry more ammo (which ends up washing out). A 2 fucking pound difference is NOTHING.
Is ol' Bill Ruger havin a laff?
7.92 x 33
You are a fucking idiot. You absolutely can and need to account for vibration if you are serious about long range shooting. There is a whole science devoted to "tuning" barrels (loads actually) to exit the barrel at a particular swing angle.
Do you have a single source thats not fudd? How about military?
The military put thermal sleeves on cannons to deal with the issue I'm talking about.
Where are the fucking barrel weights or flute hatches or wind chimes to deal with whatever the fuck youre talking about?
The denser the material, the faster vibrations travel through it.
In the relatively hard metals that compose gun barrels, the vibrations caused by the propellant detonating are going to travel ahead of the bullet as it leaves the barrel.
The way that the barrel warps in response to these vibrations is being referred to as harmonics, and it's important because if the barrel warps in a strange or excessive or unpredictable manner, the bullet will be redirected in a strange, excessive or unpredictable manner
it's not hokum to be aware of this, and attempt to correct it.
I'm sorry but thats absolute bullshit.
If barrels warped because of vibration they wouldnt stay warped, they would snap back after each shot. But thats not the case, they warp; stay warped while theyre hot, and only later cool down. Pencil barrels dont warp because of vibrations, they warp because of temperature.
And screw you for making me even entertain such an insane anti-physics notion you cargo cult nigger, if we could warp steel with vibration we wouldnt be using foundries for jack shit.
>Being this autistic
Holy shit. He means warp as in "the barrel twists and whips due to the explosion being contained to push the bullet through rifling"
You dipshit. These vibrations are measurable. They oscillate like a sine wave (with inertia and dampening). If bullet #1 exits the barrel when the wave is positive, and bullet #2 exits the barrel when the wave is negative, the shot group is going to suffer versus two bullets exiting the barrel on the same position on the wave.
Steels, and all metals, are like very rigid springs. They have the equivalent of a very high spring constant. Coupled with their mass and their shape, they form a dynamic kinematic system, and respond as such to inputs in the form of a spring-mass-damper entity.
Yes, temperature definitely plays a role, but this is in addition to, not in spite of, the dynamic system.
harmonics: Having never heard of this before, I would assume it's closely related to the archer's paradox – the arrow is sitting on the rest, to the left of the centerline of the riser. The arrow *should* warp left, and veer thataway because it's a straight line from the application of force and the arrow-rest.
Instead, the arrow twists (slowly enough modern cameras can catch it) and bends around the riser … then spends awhile wiggling.
Much ado is spent trying to tune that wiggling. BTW, said 'wiggling' is why bows are absolute crap at point blank range … the arrow is quasi-tumbling for awhile until it straightens itself out.
you've got it. Look at all slow motion gun footage and you'll see the barrel doing exactly what the arrow you described does.
I'm surprised there are people on /k/ that have never heard of barrel harmonics. This is basic fucking shit. It's why free-floated barrels are a thing. It's good that you're learning, though, friendo. At least you're not an ignorant fucking leaf.
/k/ is now "what weapons do I use to kill niggers and shitskins" the board. It isn't what /k/ was a year or two ago.
There's barely any weapons and a PDF thread with all of Osprey dumped into a mega folder, some actual Russian doctrine papers and how to make some armor from the roman empire is on the 4th page.
Trump ruined this site.
this happened before Trump, mid 2015 actually
Sign of the times, I think some people have come to the conclusion that their hobby isn't just a hobby and it has some serious political stuff attached to it or they're someone that just realized the sunshine and lollypops have been a ruse the entire time and they need to defend themselves given how things are going. Personally speaking the injuns innawoods are probably going to skin me alive come SHTF, there ain't no way I'm getting out by the time I realize what is going on.
Now on the topic of /k/ stuff maybe an ATF thread would be appropriate come Friday.
>learning how to fight is less important than the political part of guns
/k/ doesn't even know how COINTELPRO works or political strategy or how to fight with their rifles unless they went to classes.
I didn't imply that, I was implying the hot topic did a switch and new folk are freaking out over current events.
>/k/ doesn't even know how COINTELPRO works
I don't think anyone will forget how a honeypot turned out to be nothing various feds baiting one another, hilariously. Aside from that the best militia tends to be a group of close friends, no outsiders.
>how to fight with their rifles unless they went to classes
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one, /k/ is a mixed bag from vets to people who solely target shoot at long range and the between of that. SHTF and such is going to be a magical place.
>/k/ is now "what weapons do I use to kill niggers and shitskins" the board. It isn't what /k/ was a year or two ago.
/k/ used to be slow but filled with gunfags, true, but this whole site has been politicized (except for /a/) because of the SJW "culture war". It's fucking retarded because I'll shoot a motherfucker no matter his skin color. Even /k/ bans for being a commie even in jest.
It's whatever, man. Just keep posting. These fucking faggot teens aren't going to keep training and spending money because they don't really like guns. They just like being faggots.
This isnt the case, barrel whip has LONG been proven to be due to improperly seated barrels.
You guys are using myths from the late 1950s, now thats impressive!
Again youre making about as much sense as star trek trying to use physics words. Deflagration waves if they had ANY macroscopic effect, would be transverse.
Sine is just one component of sinusoidal waves (cosine the other), its like saying "hurr this car moved in a LENGTH way".
>he thinks /k/ started to go to shit during the election
If only you'd realized how bad things were sooner.
This whole thing is the result of the exoduses, because the events behind those made people even more paranoid, and so "board culture" was turned into calling everyone a shill anon disagreed with. It would have been relatively easy to slowly recover from that and have actual good discussions, but then came the American elections. Nevertheless, it already started shifting the actual political discourses to other boards, simply because people didn't act so overly dramatic outside of /pol/.
Then the influx of literal redditors and other assumed scum during the elections created a bog of newfags who inherited this paranoia and nothing else. So their preferred form of arguing is putting random words between (((le ebin parentheses))) and crying shill. So yes, it started before the elections, but said elections made the situation so much worse that I fear I will never get my /pol/ back. And of course said newfags had to overpoliticize the whole site. I admit I'm prone of going into politics, but only if I'm provoked.
>he thinks he guessed what I think
>if only he knew how wrong he really is
I mean assorted scum, before some autist calls me out on that.
>I am much smarter than you, le ebin oldfag
Jesus Christ, why isn't there a filter by country option yet. You are without a doubt the shittiest poster on /k/
>if I greentext hard enough, then my opinion will matter
>complaining about a single line of greentext within a greentext while posting smug anime girls
Dr. Pot, I'm kettle.
>Not Moot when he fucked up /pol/ for days, forcing all the worst of the worst of halfchan cunts to flood here.
You asked us for sources and yet refuse to post yours while I haven't found anything refuting what we're saying in this thread. Give sauce or you're just being a fuck boy.
Its damn near impossible to prove something doesnt exist you idiot, the burden of proof is on someone trying to prove something DOES exist.
For example: Prove to me that green dogs dont exist.
I have a source here of the same quality as the ones you posted to prove your harmony insanity exists.
But those aren't green dogs, they've just been dyed green….
Is this the same gay leaf that got mad as shit when someone called him a genetic dead end?
He types in a similar fashion and he's got a severe issue with providing proof to back up his own claims when someone provides evidence for their counterargument.
that furniture though, god damn
And how do you think the deflagration propagates through the barrel material? It imparts kinetic energy and heat from the overpressure and chemical reaction. The material springs back according to its stress-strain curve. Imperfections in the material and the shape of the cross section makes this motion asymmetric, generating the decaying STANDING waves (with nodes, hence harmonic). If the muzzle velocity of your load is drastically different from one round to another, your round is exiting the barrel at different angles of incidence with respect to the end of the barrel during that dynamic response. That's why high-level long range shooters spend so much time and effort creating loads with the intent of making their muzzle velocity as consistent as possible.
>propagates through the barrel material?
Without producing macroscopic effects. If you think otherwise, look at a slowmo shot of any rifle firing and try to see jack shit.
>generating the decaying STANDING waves (with nodes, hence harmonic)
In order to get standing waves an instrument has to be perfectly designed, otherwise you get destructive interference instead of constructive.
Who the fuck designs a rifle to be an instrument? Not to mention that its in contact to things like sliding rods, straps, magazines of different sizes, optics, and the users cheek or shoulder…. ALL of which would negate any standing waves even if you purposely tried to design them into the gun.
A WOODEN GUN STOCK WOULD HAVE A DAMPING EFFECT ON YOUR HARMONICS IDIOT
>That's why high-level long range shooters spend so much time and effort creating loads with the intent of making their muzzle velocity as consistent as possible.
Fucking no. The reason people do that is that a different load produces different muzzle velocities, which fly differently.
If your retarded theory was correct there would be no need to make match the bullets, only match loadings, since the weight of the projectile is immaterial as to "when" it exits during the earthquake forces of c4 explosions you seem to think are bending the fucking metal.
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Here is a video of an AR-15 barrel flexing under the stress of firing. The barrel visibly changes alignment, you can be certain then that this flex is capable of changing point of impact. Everything beyond that is theory validated by trial and error, but it's incontrovertible that barrel harmonics (the effects of vibration within the barrel upon point of impact) does in fact real.
>If you think otherwise, look at a slowmo shot of any rifle firing and try to see jack shit.
>A WOODEN GUN STOCK WOULD HAVE A DAMPING EFFECT ON YOUR HARMONICS IDIOT
So now harmonics are real, but don't matter as long as you use an antiquated stock…? Or wait, vibration can't effect accuracy because it would be disrupted by other parts of the gun?
>If your retarded theory was correct there would be no need to make match the bullets, only match loadings, since the weight of the projectile is immaterial as to "when" it exits during the earthquake forces of c4 explosions you seem to think are bending the fucking metal.
So now you're insisting that 60,000 PSI, to use 5.56 as an example, is simply not enough pressure to have macroscopic effects on steel. Then you insist that if barrel harmonics were real they would be the only internal/external ballistic factor in accuracy, and therefore the only thing people would consider when loading. But even when you're talking about this it's utter nonsense.
So the "weight of the projectile is immaterial as to "when" it exits?" This is really fucking basic physics here, if you put a heavier or lighter bullet in front of the same charge it will accelerate at different speeds. Honestly the shit you say is so disjointed, defensive and retarded I bet if I didn't preempt you you'd eventually start calling everyone harmonicucks and making shitty mspaint memes about elmer fudd rubbing his barrel with voodoo grease to protect from disharmonious spirits.
He's probably the one that "lives in Florida."
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
An experimental barrel…. which shows the bullet leaving before any vibration. Good job proving yourself wrong. Also check out the stand, those vibrations arent even in the barrel, theyre in the entire setup. Ergo its not harmonics, its just recoil.
>harmonics (the effects of vibration within the barrel upon point of impact) does in fact real.
That isnt even the definition of harmonics, guns vibrate from recoil, this isnt harmonics.
Its actually claiming that:
1. The vibrations are regular and repetative.
2. That they occur before the bullet exits (which your video disproved, thanks.)
3. And theyre either the same the next time or they keep vibrating between shots, even for bolt actions.
Even you are claiming that by tuning the powder its possible to exit the barrel in the same position each time in a regular procession of the barrel!
How about a tank cannon?
>rubbing his barrel with voodoo grease to protect from disharmonious spirits
I'll leave things like this to you boys.
>if only he knew how wrong he really is
>text above it is all about how the election is what really shifted the site
Okay Mr. 19D underwater backgammon, please enlighten me on what you really think.
I didn't post those links, but goddamn, if I cannot find anyone online saying "this is false" and a whole shitload saying 'yes this is a thing", should I really trust some irate shitposter? Maybe you would be better suited with a goddamn link spam for the rest of a thread about rifles that don't even operate at the ranges required for this whole thing to be relevant?
Just filter him. I find it hard to believe he can't understand barrel harmonics are a thing after having it explained to him for the umpteenth time. As always, it had to be a fucking leaf.
When youre talking about real firearms phenomena, theres research, actual published science, going back decades. There are military and departmental memos of conferences about it.
Of the people saying "yes this is a thing", do any provide any evidence? Keep in mind this is a myth started mainly by kmproperly seated barrels and poor undefstandinv of recoil forces, but its been adapted to sell people things. So theres money in it.
Just think ogpf how long the myth of stopping power persisted! The majority of gun owners and even some police still believe it to this day.
If you think stopping power isnt real, youre in the minority, does that make you wrong?
You could explain that AR-15 stands for assault rifle 2015 until youre blue in the face, but it still wouldnt make it real.
Or just read your own sources man.
>I ran across a theory, presented by radio communications engineer Chris Long, which makes a whole lot of sense and explains some ideas I knew to be true, but had no idea how to nail down scientifically. It also changed the way I look at my own handloaded ammunition. Long purports that a series of crossing waves can, will, and do have a great effect on the barrel and its ability to produce a repeatable point of impact (known to us as a tight group). While I am not a scientist (cue Star Trek music: “Dammit Jim, I’m a surveyor not an engineer!”)
A gun guy without a clue about science is taking advice from a scientist without a clue about guns.
The radio guy probably fixated on waves because its all he knows, so he invented a hypothesis to explain what must be a mystery to him.
But real researchers know aerodynamics and temperature control are the factors affecting accuracy, something a radio technician is hardly likely to know!
Thinking barrel harmonics are real is going to result in guns like G36, solving an imaginary problem just to run face first into thermodynamics.
>An experimental barrel…. which shows the bullet leaving before any vibration.
I know you guys in Canada have shit magazine restrictions and what not but is it so bad you can't comprehend the idea that someone might want to fire their weapon more than once? Sure, the bullet leaves the barrel before vibration happens on the first shot, but the second shot will happen when the barrel is vibrating. That's the problem, Sherlock.
>Thinks the G3 sucks
>Doesn't like the M14
The vid I posted disproves that.
And you still havent adressed the fact that vibration is caused by recoil forces not shockwaves through steel. Or that its completely unpredictable, thus impossible to deal with by barrel weights or powder adjustment.
I think if the gaymergate exodus happened a few years sooner or later, then the newfags brought here by the exodus would have faced a /pol/ that's not in the state of being completely unable of having a good discussion about more abstracts topics. Why? Because after that event everybody was paranoid about bogeymen manipulating popular opinion, so instead of engaging in debates people just cried shill if they found an opposing opinion. But, it's quite the but, but the board culture of /pol/ was slowly leaving behind this and going back to normal. Then those damned elections came, and all the newfags came, and they learned the culture of calling everybody a shill instead of engaging in debates.
Put some emphases in the text, so maybe you all will have an easier time to understand this. But I really can't do more than repeating myself if the simple process of new members of a community inheriting maladaptations is too complex for you.
Bravo, Hungary. You've somehow managed to blame the election again while trying to make it look like you're really blaming the exodus.
Okay, I try it this way:
>exouds-→bad, baad board culture very bad, sad!
>time goes on after exodus→board is culture is still baaad, but it's a bit better, but still bad, sad!
>if there was no influx of newfags during this time→board culture gets better as idiots who can't argue their way out of a box abandon the site, fantastic
>influx of newfags due to elections→newfags are low effort, they prefer the baad, baaaaad board culture, sad!
Is this more up to your speed? Board culture is a flux thing that quickly evolves and devolves, and an influx of new users take up the kind of board culture they encounter when they come here during their period of "indoctrination". So I blame both the elections and the gg exodus, because the two happened too close to each other, and in the worst possible order. Had the gg exodus happened after elections, then most of the cucktan tier users would have remained in cuckchan. Instead they came here straight from reddit, facebook, TRS and who knows where else.
I'm sorry everyone, I really doubted this guys autism even with all the mad science shit he posts but this post has forced me to swallow my own beliefs. Hungaryanon is undoubtedly a huge fucking autist. Sorry I doubted you, /k/.
This is unarguably one of the shittiest posts I've read on this entire board. At least Spergook's thread on changing the US infantry was entertaining.
> So I blame both the elections and the gg exodus
Holy shit, you sure showed me your genius. You blame something else alongside the election. I should have realized I could never get in a mind as complex and deep as yours.
Then show me how your mind is unclouded by autism, and write down how it really went down.
I've been repeating myself since this post: >>485636 Therefore if it indeed is new information for you, then you really are too retarded to understand what I've been saying. My very first sentence in that post is:
>This whole thing is the result of the exoduses
And this is your reply: >>485785
Cant be bothered replying to specific >LEAF posts but barrel harmonics has an impact on rifle precision (group size).
Harold R. Vaughn spent over a decade studying every possible aspect of rifle accuracy and documented everything in his book 'Rifle Accuracy Facts', in it is an entire chapter dedicated to barrel vibrations and the effect it has on the rifle.
Benchrest shooters who compete in classes with weight limits cant use the 1"+ bull barrels that those shooting in the unlimited class can but still need consistent shot to shot accuracy. To get around this many shooters use precision adjustable masses which are affixed at the muzzle and allow the barrel to be tuned and achieve optimal performance.
/pol/ just after the first exodus was actually a pretty good place, now its just shit.
>The vid I posted disproves that.
How? Nothing in the video scientifically proved that vibrations of a barrel do not affect accuracy.
>And you still havent adressed the fact that vibration is caused by recoil forces not shockwaves through steel.
What do you think recoil forces manifest themselves as? Did you fail high school physics?
>Hurr Durr guns aren't political, dumb racists
Browning BAR Match with an Aimpoint comp m4s red dot.
Nothing wrong with getting political about guns or with guns. Bringing up politics that isn't directly relevant to guns isn't bad either and can enhance the discussion. It's when retards start bring up irrelevant shit all the damn time that it starts to get annoying.
Get a G3 variant. Best battle rifle by far.
strelok just stop. I like your posts and don't agree with the negative groupthink about you but you're just digging a deeper hole
I'M SORRY I DIDN'T KNOW A SINGLE SHIT POST ABOUT BARREL HARMONICS WOULD LEAD TO ALL THIS! PLEASE MAKE IT STOP! I WANT OFF THIS RIDE!
The recoil forces stop shaking the gun by the time the next round is fired.
>What do you think recoil forces manifest themselves as?
So youre denying harmonics us a thing? Why are you being so aggressive then?
The way this thread went comes off as targeted derailment.
Just filter the leaf and the hun and talk about battle rifles.
The leaf has already been proven wrong, and the hun is going on about irrelevant bullshit that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Yeah except both of those guys are right and you're being a whiner. Have you even read the thread? Don't start a discussion if you can't handle it.
I never said that, but when this board has daily nigger complaint threads daily, then you can see that post quality has gone down. Also /k/ is full of poorfags now, which is telling. Most posters are edgy teens now, it seems.
Watch the AK74vs G3 match, then the FAL vs ASK and maybe even the CETME. G3 DOES not suck. However in practical application, the russian method of more firepower on target @ close range seems to be superior within 300meters. And AK/M4 FAL/G3 turn into different beats with good optics.
Why does barrel life matter for DMR/Snipers with how guns have such easy changeable barrels?
Wouldn't we be better off arming DMR troops with 7mm rem mag rifles that use a an-94 recoil type of mechanism?
>The recoil forces stop shaking the gun by the time the next round is fired.
As soon as the primer is struck, recoil forces and vibrations travel from the receiver down the barrel at the speed of sound in steel, causing the barrel to deflect and oscillate.
The speed of sound in steel is ~6000m/s, many times faster than the muzzle velocity of the rifle. The barrel has already been oscillating for a significant period of time before the bullet leaves the muzzle.
The AN-94 mechanism specifically makes it unusable as a precision or even DMR rifle, its the same issue that the semi-auto Barrett rifles have in that you cant be sure where the barrel returns to exactly after firing.
>Why does barrel life matter for DMR/Snipers with how guns have such easy changeable barrels?
Because foot solders are given the cheapest rifle possible, replacement barrels for your marksmen every few hundred rounds means less money spent on things like tomahawk missiles or attack helicopters.
Every vid posted ITT disagrees.
>my handful of videos disproves over a decade of scientific research which forms the basis for ultra-precision rifle design
You should take up unlimited class benchrest shooting, since you clearly understand the dynamics of rifles better than those who have spent decades pursuing it with autistic levels of analysis you should be able to wipe the floor with them any any competition you go to.
Just because you cant see the barrel moving before the bullet leaves on your low resolution and low framerate videos that doesn't mean it isn't moving. As I mentioned in >>485871 Harold Vaughn tested this with with precision instruments and backed it up with simulations.
Are you trying to prove yourself wrong?
Measured observation states the barrel doesnt move until 0.6 miliseconds. In that time a .223 will have moved 18 inches. What a fucking coincidence.
Even the movement at 0.8 is completely indicative of RECOIL FORCES.
For a 6000m/s wave to be the cause, the barrel would have to be deflecting at UNDER 0.1 milisecond, and that's just not happening in your own sources.
>Are you trying to prove yourself wrong?
No he entirely proved you wrong and everything you're saying indicates you have no grasp of how shooting things with guns works. If you hate scientific research and guns you need to get off this board.
Dude, just filter him. He's either a troll or hopelessly retarded. There is no convincing faggots like these.
Oh Palmetto State Armory has been getting into 308 ARs recently. If you watch sales you can get the two halfs sub 1000 USD.
Anyone have any experience with the new Savage MSR-10's?
the concept of a .308 Garand makes me hot and bothered. It uses standard PING! enblocs. If I hadn't already decided that an AR15 and CZ75B are my next targets, I would totally get one.
I love scientific research since it keeps proving me right.
Faggot nigger cunt say that to my face.
Why would you want a rifle chambered in an anemic modern counterpart of the cartridge it was designed for? Furthermore, why wouldn't you just buy an m14?
Is it the combination of the enbloc clip with cheaper plinking ammo?
>I love scientific research since it keeps proving me right.
Except nothing you've posted is backed by scientific research, try again you nogunz faggot.
>I love scientific research since it keeps proving me right.
The bullet doesn't leave the barrel until 1.4ms, at which point the muzzle has already deflected by at least 2mils.
Also these tests were done with the receiver rigidly bolted to the fixture, the whole assembly cant recoil backwards to eliminate recoil being picked up by the accelerometer. Also if you weren't so retarded you would have seen that its only graphing acceleration in the vertical plane, recoil acts in the horizontal plane along the axis of the bore.
meh, if you are going to get an M1 chambered in something other than 30-06 then the only acceptable one is pic related.
>muh wood an' iron
M14 a shit
I dont have to post anything apparently.
You idiots have posted videos and images that both prove harmonics isnt real.
Youre tripping over yourself to prove me right!
I wish there was a reality where everything used an enbloc. Especially pistols. Plus I don't want to pay 20- 25c more per round for ANOTHER cartridge to keep around
And reported and filtered
A ton of diverse parts kits came into Apex a few weeks ago. If you love weird historical guns like I do you ought to think about picking up some of them and worry about building them into semiautos later. That's what I did in 2007 and I've built most of them now.
Harmonics aren't a myth you fucking mongoloid.
Different structures in bulk materials will lead to different phonon mode densities. When the size of your structure is large compared to the speed of sound in the structure (like the barrel of a gun), large-scale changes in the structure will lead to substantial changes in low-frequency mode densities; these modes are few enough and slow enough that they can generate macroscopic vibrations in the structure.
In other words, barrels do vibrate when you shoot the gun (mostly due to the longitudinal pressure waves generated when firing and due to torque generated by the recoil axis not being perfectly aligned with the support axis or due to brakes/flash hiders/etc.). Changing the structure of the barrel changes those vibrations.
I don't claim to know to what degree these vibrations actually matter, but they do exist and are macroscopically large. They might only contribute a 0.1moa difference, but it could plausibly be much larger than that.
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Well, it has an HK logo stamped on it, so that automatically adds $2,000 to the price stamp because pf the ancient Teutonic magic infused in the runes.
>a major gun manufacturer and people who regularly shoot at extreme long distances don't qualify as a source of information
Do you use maple syrup to flavor all the cocks you suck, or do you just dive in?
Do you even know what the purpose of a free-floated barrel is, or why it affects accuracy?
>says there's research and actual published data going back decades
>everybody in the industry says barrel harmonics are a thing
>but that doesn't count
>keeps saying all these links people provide don't provide any evidence, but never posts his own links or shows any evidence to prove barrel harmonics don't exist
When we annex Canada as the 51st state, I hope you're one of the faggots they crucify in front of a burning Tim Horton's.
The vibration travels through the barrel faster than the bullet does, causing the barrel to flex before the bullet leaves the gun.
Next you're going to tell us that lock time isn't a thing either.
Yeah, ok, you're not a retard, you're an asshole deserving of a ban for trolling. Filtered.
I'd stick my dick into her magwell and finger fuck her till she cums full auto.
The FAMAS does have a fully free floated barrel.
Parts kits when? I want a free-float bugle.
Never. French give their old shit to the legion.
There were FAMAS models imported. Remember that a large part of accuracy comes from consistency in locking. The FAMAS does not have that as far as I can see. It's a lever-delayed blowback, not a rotating bolt.
DSArms Advanced Weapon Systems?
You're probably thinking of one of their pistol/carbine variants.
>Why the meme cartridges?
Because there are no annoyingly mainstream or worthwhile "true wildcat" large-bore cartridges the AR platform is chambered in.
Zastava M90SA. Or Vepr. Or Tigr
Speaking of meme cartridges:
>a wildcat cartridge based on .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO case with a .277 caliber (6.8mm) projectile
>The .223 Rem shoulder is moved back and the case length is shortened. The overall length of .277 Wolverine (.277WLV) is 2.26″, which makes it possible to fit into AR-15 magazines. Just like the .300 Blackout, it only requires a barrel change to build an AR-15 rifle chambered in this caliber. In fact, this cartridge comes pretty close to the 6.8 SPC but lacks the disadvantages associated with the latter (need of a different/optimized magazine and different bolt, reduced magazine capacity etc.). Particularly, the .277 Wolverine pushes a 90 gr, 100 gr and 110 gr projectiles at 2700 fps, 2600 fps and 2500 fps respectively (from a 16″ barrel).
>As the title of this post implies, the designer of this cartridge has released it to the public (effective of April 18, 2017). It means that this cartridge is no more a proprietary one and anybody willing to manufacture it can do it without a need to have a permission.
> I think chances are good we’ll see a new SAAMI cartridge soon.
I don't know why people call these "meme" cartridges. Aren't memes supposed to be popular ideas?
> meme (/ˈmiːm/ MEEM), a neologism coined by Richard Dawkins, is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture". A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme. Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate, mutate, and respond to selective pressures.
But really, most meme-somethings are called that because you will most likely end up with lots of people who are in favour of those things, even if it doesn't seem to be rational. Like people who insist to use renewable energy only, and don't listen to any negative criticism of the concept.
Into the trash it goes!
One of the main reasons why 300blk has become so popular is that you get the massive and easy to find selection of the 308 diameter bullet, which 6.8mm doesn't have.
I am >>486293 by the way, IP address changed.
A meme is the smallest complete idea transmissible between people.
They are called meme cartridges because thats a meme.
The meme cartridges is a meme based on calling everything shittily executed a meme.
This meme exists because a lot of forced memes were done badly.
Oh youre one of the harmonica meme niggers, never mind.