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There's no discharge in the war!

File: 9e3fc10c13415cf⋯.jpg (28.79 KB, 534x355, 534:355, mig-37 ferret.jpg)

67c876  No.600334

Would it work?

67c876  No.600343

Here are some tips:

MiG-15: The most produced combat jet in history, combined with its direct derivatives, MiG-17 and MiG-19, by far outnumbers the 2nd most produced combat jet family. Highly modified derivatives (Q-5/A-5 Fantan family) were kept being produced by China up to 2012. Not really good with WW2 props' stats but probably THE most produced fighter family in history. Given its more than decent performance and combat record producing most of the Eastern Bloc aces it probably also was the most cost-effective jet fighter in history.

MiG-21: A low cost high performance fighter/interceptor that despite its shortcomings in certain design and performance aspects it remained among the most dreaded adversaries of the West and the constantly upgraded backbone of several Air Forces in the world, and not only in the eastern bloc, for several decades. A 2nd gen fighter that remained highly competitive against even 4th gens, even at the dawn of the 21st century. The second most produced fighter in history, assuring Mikoyans place in history as the most combat-aircraft-shitting industry.

MiG-23/MiG-27: Low cost high performance fighter/inderdictor respectively, reportedly it outperformed the more expensive and much more technologically advanced F-16 in many performance aspects and according to India it even achieved aerial victories against Paki F-16s in a couple of occations. The most most produced variable geometry wing aircraft. Though it sold well it never attained the legendary status of the MiG-21 which was more easy to maintain and only marginally worse in overall performance, since the variable-sweep wing was proven to be heavy, maintenance demanding and not anywhere as performance improving as it was thought to be in paper (see also F-111 failures and F-14 being not significantly better and a bit more slothish than its conventional wing counterpart, the F-15).

db25cd  No.600344

Everything mikoyan makes would work. Problem is they sell data to enemies.

67c876  No.600349


The Foxbat, one of the world's fastest aircraft, by far the most produced Mach3-capable one, a serial-record breaker and a nightmare for the West for a couple of decades which forced the West to step up their game by creating the F-15 and practically kick-started the 4th generation of fighter jets. Though proven to be far heavier than originally thought by NATO and not a good dogfighter it still remained a top-class interceptor/reconnaissance platform for many decades and virtually invincible to most air-defenses (with the notable exception of the F-14) up to the introduction of the AMRAAM. Despite its shortcomings it was pretty widely exported for an aircraft of it performance envelope and technological level at the time and proven a vital aspect for the export costumers, particularly in its high-altitude recon role.


With its combination of HMD, wide-angle all aspect missiles and unreal >80^ sustained angle of attack (that enable it perform maneuvers like Pugachev's Cobra), that allowed it to achieve 9/1 kill ratios against F-16s in simulated dogfights performed by the Luftwaffe, it was originally an adversary of nearly mythical status for the West, even if its later combat record, burdened by severe situational disadvantages, tarnished its original image.

Primarily designed by Russia's Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute along with its younger brother, the Su-27, it was a wonder of aerodynamics with the most notable achievement of it being the fact that it could severely outperform most contemporary and later generation fighters in a few aspects WITHOUT the use of relaxed stability and consequently the need for a FBW, it still remains one of the most maneuverable aircraft in terms of maximum turn rate, the champion of maximum rate of climb (closely challenged only by the Eurofighter Typhoon), and the close second most capable aircraft in terms of sustained high-alpha after its FBW-equipped sibling design, the Su-27, and it thrust-vectoring-equipped derivatives.


Moments after the West got relieved by Belenko's defect from the USSR that revealed MiG-25 close-combat performance and low level flight performance shortcomings their fears got renewed with said defector's claims that a "super-Foxbat" was in the final stages of development; that resulted to a fiction-reaching panic that inspired nearly impossible depictions like the MiG-31 "Firefox" in literature and later Hollywood. Thankfully for the West, the actual MiG-31, labeled Foxhound by NATO, remained on its predecessor's footsteps of focusing in high-altitude high-speed long-range interception, instead of close-quarter combat, though its low-level performance and range, weapon effectiveness and avionics were dramatically improved (thanks to the new generation turbofan instead of turbojet engine and its huge and powerful PESA radar) allegedly forcing the previously invulnerable and legendary SR-71 into early retirement. Still remains a vital part of Russia's air-defenses and along with its predecessor the highest and fastest flying combat aircraft in current service.

67c876  No.600351


>Problem is they sell data to enemies.

China successfully reverse-engineering aircraft designs or even building blueprints served on a golden plate by the manufacturer would be a laughable claim and a non-issue a decade ago, but given they have somehow managed to make supercomputers that outperform western equivalents, that could do the creative part of design more efficiently than their bug-people co-creators, indeed raises some flags.

Will get back to it with the third and final part of my post that regards Mikoyan's never/not yet operationally produced fighter designs, namely the MiG-39/MFI (the most likely predecessor of the J-10 and J-20), the MiG LMFS and MiG-41.

363e5d  No.600476

File: 298ca764bcf0a0e⋯.png (130.02 KB, 1795x526, 1795:526, MiGs.PNG)




Very informative.

06a828  No.600484

File: b630dbb7a2af635⋯.jpg (162.29 KB, 800x600, 4:3, 8429714201_7795fea6e8_c.jpg)

Would it work?

db25cd  No.600487


>make supercomputers that outperform western equivalents

That is not even difficult, western equivalents are built with off the shelf tech or so buttfucked by contractors that its a joke.

Russia and China build chips specific for tasks. For example a Russian 500 megahertz chip designed for encryption is better at encryption than a western 3 gigahertz chip. Of course it can't do anything else… but the one task its built for it does very well.

196487  No.600551


Y-you too…

>>600349 (You)

… cont:

MiG-29M/K/ MiG-33/35

Based on the very successful airframe design and powerful engines of the MiG-29, as the designation implies the MiG-29M family is a very similar and a direct derivative of the original MiG-29A/C but essentially a whole new plane (in pretty much the same manner the Super Hornet/Rhino is different to a Legacy Hornet).

The most obvious shortcoming of the original MiG-29, namely its short range, was addressed in the new design by increasing fuel capacity with redesigned thicker LERXs and expansion of the dorsal ridge behind the cockpit in order to serve as a fuel tanks and space for avionics and countermeasures; the consequent increase in weight was countered with upgraded, now smokeless (a previous lever for criticism) engines, and more extensive use of composites (which also served as a radar-signature reducing measure, especially in the later MiG-35 variant).

As expected and in contrast to its predecessor the new Fulcrum is a genuine 4.5gen fighter which incorporates a FBW and fully digitized controls that further reduce weight and improve the already impressive high angle of attack and post-stall controlability of the original MiG-29 airframe. With the dramatic improvement of its avionics, radar and weapon software the M-family are not only significantly more capable BVR fighters but also genuine multi-role fighter/bombers.

During the 90s the only costumer for the MiG-29M was the Russian Air Force, with only a couple of tens sold to it. Its carrierborne version, the MiG-29K, achieved a "darling" status among the Russian Navy's carrier crews for its light weight, small size and overall practicality but at that time it lost in favor of the somewhat more powerful but way bigger, heavier and more demanding Su-33, the carrier version of the Su-27 family; a similar pattern was followed in both domestic and international markets throughout the late 90's and 00's, with the Su-27's equivalents of the MiG-29M, the Su-30 family, greatly overshadowing the MiG-29M/-33 family. Despite the lack of commercial success for the new Fulcrum and the seemingly bleak market conditions for them, Mikoyan kept investing and constantly upgrading the design up to this day ultimately culminating to the ambitious export-oriented MiG-35, an aircraft that retains all original Fulcrum's advantages with much improved technologies, including an AESA radar and even more powerful and longer living engine, that keep it extremely competitive, if not equal, to contemporary gen4.5++ and fifth gen fighters at a much more appealing price; similarly the MiG-29K made its triumphant comeback (now as a navalized version of the fully modernized MiG-35) taking its revenge upon the aging Su-33, which it now replaces, and scoring a significant export deal with the Hindu Navy. Now negotiations for export orders with the Russian Air Force/Navy, Serbia, Egypt, Syria and other less likely customers and its combination of high performance at a price that only the Gripen and the new F-16 variants can compete with, leave much ground for optimism in Mikoyan's marketing department.

sorry for talking that long in this one, the MiG-29 is among my favorites planes, if not my favorite, and I find the MiG-29M's story very emotionally charged I don't particularly like the MiG-39/MFI/1.44 but it will probably take longer, it's a long tale of struggle, unfulfilled dream and betrayal…

PS: "MiG-33" is the export designation of slightly improved MiG-29M variants throughout the 00's

PS2: Some of the improvements of the MiG-29M were retrofitted on older MiG-29C airframes as well as the new built MiG-29S/SMT "Fullback" that were essentially Legacy Fulcrums half-way upgraded to MiG-29M standard while retaining the older metallic airframe, conventional hydraulic controls and greater commonality of parts with the original Fulcrum-A/C in order to appeal to old MiG-29 buyers.

68fb86  No.600553



MiG should unveil the proto of the MiG-41 or 43 (PAK DP) in a couple of years (scheduled to start entering service in 2025-30, the MiG-31 need a replacement).

Prepare the jimmies to be rustled because it's gonna be something ridiculous.

As in gen 10 space going fighter armed with lasers ridiculous…

196487  No.600556



MiG-35's engine also has 3D thrust vectoring nozzles bringing the >>600349

>combination of HMD, wide-angle all aspect missiles and unreal >80^ sustained angle of attack

line to a whole new level though allegedly thrust vectoring is only a meme

196487  No.600559

File: a22a771c1770228⋯.jpg (225.34 KB, 2048x1448, 256:181, will it blend.jpg)


I would not get so excited. IMO it's probably just an oversized J-20 (aka stealthified MiG-39) with decent not-MADE IN CHINA engines, possibly hybrid scramjet/turbofans provided the interceptor is fuckhuge enough,as in bigger than Tu-28 was if not B-1R/Tu-160P sized.

pic very related.

I am very curious about what ceramics will they use to make it stealth at the mach4 ranges given that the F-22's max speed is way more likely burdened by construction materials than engine power.

db25cd  No.600567


MiG41 is going to have a set of normal engines which can turn into a scramjet. Kind of like SR71 but better.

And this fucking thing is going to be armed.


I don't think they'll bother with stealth, if it's going mach 4 that's already faster than 99% of missiles. Also F-22 is an ancient design, RAM/RCS tech underwent massive changes since then. In fact Russian RCS philosophy (jamming) requires no shaping or materials at all.

81a544  No.600569


>In fact Russian RCS philosophy (jamming) requires no shaping or materials at all.

Reactivation of the Brazo/PAVE ARM project when? I'm pretty sure that the Russians already have a version of the Vympal with an ARM seeker.

e814d7  No.600570

Mikoyan Gurevich

>Attaching copied engines to mediocre airframes since 1947

e814d7  No.600571


Sorry, I should qualify. The only and last design that MiG ever created that is worth a shit was the MiG-3

e814d7  No.600573

File: fbb8813903a8235⋯.jpg (173.99 KB, 960x742, 480:371, miggersbtfo.jpg)


196487  No.600576

File: 079adfdde4a2dde⋯.jpg (211.06 KB, 1600x1200, 4:3, 1428872377032.jpg)


You don't achieve ~90^ degrees sustained angle of attack without thrust vectoring or even FBW with a "mediocre" airframe.



Stay faitfhful to you country's tradition of contextless shitposting.

e814d7  No.600577


>Implying throwing away all of your energy in a flashy airshow maneuver has any tactical value

If you want to present a static, platform target to your enemy, I'll hold your hat and coat.

196487  No.600578


>hurrr durr instantaneous turn rate is useless in air-combat

Go play in traffic.

e814d7  No.600579



>maneuvering is for faggots who play DCS

Energy is where it's at nigger.

196487  No.600583


>sour grapes extravaganza

If kinetic conservation was everything then there would not be a MiG on every second Phantom's ass back in 'nam, also the F-104 would be the best 20th cent fighter built after the F-16. Not taking half time zone to make an 180^ also helps.

ab683c  No.600613

File: 916fbf34f0025c2⋯.png (143.97 KB, 544x251, 544:251, Nobongo_Blushing.png)


>mach 4

I hope it carries glide bombs.

9582be  No.600617

File: bd531f947cadfc2⋯.webm (515.38 KB, 706x518, 353:259, brote laugh.webm)



ab683c  No.600642

File: 829b2e27f9387a5⋯.png (165.93 KB, 472x540, 118:135, fight me.png)


n-no bully!


Grandpa, the Korean war ended a long time ago.

I hope you're not one of those anti-gun advocates involved in the Phantom's inital production models.

db25cd  No.600664


The only reason high AOA is "flashy" is because an AWACS does most of the tracking and identification for the fighter.

If jamming comes into play, and fighters have to see/identify with their own eyes, suddenly dogfights and AOA is going to become popular real fast, and if this happens Russia is ready with a whole lineup of fighters specializing in it.


I think it carries missiles only, because of aerodynamic requirement. But the missiles have ridiculous range…. Part of the reason MiG41 is being developed is as an AWACS counter, see my reply a few paragraphs up to read why Russia would like that.

196487  No.600684


>If jamming comes into play, and fighters have to see/identify with their own eyes, suddenly dogfights and AOA is going to become popular real fast, and if this happens Russia is ready with a whole lineup of fighters specializing in it.

Did not an EF-18 Growler pretty much rape an F-22 in mock air combat that way?

363e5d  No.600702


I fucking love the MiG-29s, any air combat related game, I'll take a MiG-29, even if it means the odds are against me.

37a7e8  No.600703

File: 0a73610344ad07c⋯.png (49.91 KB, 410x382, 205:191, consider the following.png)


Guns are actually kinda deadweight tbh. The reason why the F4D didn't do so hot at first was nigger flight crews leaving the missiles out to bake in the Vietnamese sun for days on end and boomer pilots not understanding how the missiles tracked.

The Navy fixed this by starting the top meme flight academy and enacting strict rules on how to store missiles in climate controlled environments. This managed to turn the F4D's combat record completely around so they never bothered with installing guns on them as they were actually not needed.

The chairforce bitched and moaned that the reason why they were trading planes was because there was no gun, and after all that whining they finally got their F4E and immediately their combat record turned around! But they seldom if ever actually got kills with guns. They actually just stopped leaving their delicate missiles out in the sun and trained their pilots on when to launch them.

The fact that the Russian plane with the best K/D has no guns as well is kinda telling that they are a boomer meme.

3cc6d7  No.600705


It looks like something from Macross.

bb7bf6  No.600783


Late Vietnam era F-4s had guns.

>The fact that the Russian plane with the best K/D has no guns as well is kinda telling that they are a boomer meme.

Or that this particular aircraft could fly faster and higher than the weapons' envelope of most of its adversaries.

37a7e8  No.600946


Read again, the AIRFORCE adopted F4E which had a gun. The navy and marines never put guns on their F4s as they stuck with the F4A B, J, N, and S. none of which had guns, to the end. But the airforce seldom ever scored gun kills with their F4E's. The gun had little to nothing to do with its sudden increase in combat performance and more to do with ground crews keeping the missiles in climate controlled buildings so they actually tracked when they left the pylons.

64f953  No.607472

Why didn't they make MiG-31 with variable geometry wings?

Mikoyan already made the most produced VGW plane in history and the disadvantages of the technology (heavy weight, technical complexity) would be just a cherry frosting in the Firefox' fatass weight and technological complexity.

Meanwhile its advantages would receive a great boost. It's speed and acceleration would increase, its range would increase even more and its precursor's, the MiG-25's, main disadvantage which is its low level performance would be completely eliminated and even its close quarter combat performance might had increased a bit.

2d9cc2  No.607480

File: 0b7d9e23d0a8b8a⋯.jpeg (50.51 KB, 600x399, 200:133, antigunners need not appl….jpeg)

Anti gunners must be removed at all costs.

86fcc0  No.607487

File: 82d6a79ad8b0f9d⋯.png (1.35 MB, 2048x1582, 1024:791, 1530390149552.png)


delet this

cf3789  No.607493

File: 064f323a295fe7a⋯.jpg (137.34 KB, 970x545, 194:109, 5fff316c09a2725340fa40eac8….jpg)


Delet delet

37a7e8  No.607508

File: 4aa442698d2518f⋯.png (30.05 KB, 181x197, 181:197, smugbitch.PNG)


>a communist disregards the cold hard facts and uses his feelings to argue his case about the subject instead

Wow, what a twist!

36bf5f  No.607526


you can tell this was made by a leftist by the sheer amount of text in the meme

87eb24  No.607606

File: 877ab8cdad94716⋯.png (778.25 KB, 669x573, 223:191, 877ab8cdad947169156b8087a0….png)

3d6b23  No.607627


(((NATO))) reports hardly count as "facts".

b235f7  No.607646


so much this

13112c  No.607969



Half of the F-4E's visual-range kills were from guns, and over a third of the F-4D's were from gun pods despite only a small fraction of sorties actually carrying any guns.

37a7e8  No.608003

File: 2123bcec035bf05⋯.png (22.52 KB, 448x497, 64:71, USAF F-4 Summary for Vietn….PNG)


This only assumes that the all AIM-7s were fired in BVR and only BVR. And that's bullshit. The gunpod statistic you claim is pure fantasy if we are going off of air force statistics too. If you can find navy and marine's statistics then post them. I couldn't find any hard numbers on them.

8b6ed5  No.608033


Thrust vectoring as used by pajeets is a meme.

b719cd  No.608295


>more gun kills than fucking sidewinders (a generally hire shoot-kill ratio missile than the Sparrow even in its early versions) in both D and E

What your graph hints is that Americans avoided close quarter combat and fired more Sparrows.

914c92  No.608302


The data is for the F4 Phantom an aircraft poorly suited to a close turning dogfight the same "source" states that Phantom pilots would use its speed to engage and disengage as they wanted.

The F8 Crusader recorded 19:3 in the same conflict with 4 gun kills. (the Colt mk12 in this installation was prone to jamming under high G loads)

f76a67  No.608463

File: 4ae6e2577aebcee⋯.jpg (523.29 KB, 1280x750, 128:75, mig_41_landing_by_abiator-….jpg)

File: da7a666f4c0b0f3⋯.jpg (1.79 MB, 1400x1831, 1400:1831, mig_41_profile_by_abiator-….jpg)

File: 39cb757fca1047e⋯.jpg (919.46 KB, 1680x1050, 8:5, mig_41s_by_abiator-d33ho27.jpg)

File: a54dfa94d5714dc⋯.jpg (378.67 KB, 1280x800, 8:5, mig_41show_your_teeth_by_a….jpg)

File: cc6b6b38e9df1e3⋯.jpg (97.4 KB, 900x675, 4:3, mig_41s___firefly___by_abi….jpg)

Art major aeronautics coming through!

TBH that nose inlet pretty much defeats the entire point of reduced RCS.

a846e5  No.608474

File: f3bb97cc1d1af9f⋯.jpg (25.86 KB, 400x562, 200:281, for what pvrpose.jpg)


>a stealth MiG-21

4388df  No.608495


Fuck you, now I have the urge to spend hours in KSP trying to remake this only for it to fail miserably

80f585  No.608496


It's actually MiG-41, a logical development of MiG-31. It's a mach 4 aircraft, which is designed not just to travel at mach 4, but to actually launch weapons and maneuver at that speed. It's also designed to go about 5000m higher than MiG-31, which is a huge improvement because air pressure is reduced exponentially not linearly or geometrically.



Of course the reality will look nothing like the art.

a846e5  No.608502


Despite the yuge thrust requirements single-engine design does sound more solid given >>600559. Two scramjets under mach 3 and two turbofans at over mach 2 would be double the dead weight.

91dad9  No.608975


>Guns are actually kinda deadweight tbh.

I dunno. I'm not saying they're highly effective or even particularly useful, but honestly they probably have a psychological effect. Even if you use all your missiles, you still have a gun.

Now, how useful it is: modern guns have some pretty sophisticated (read: classified) FCS backing them up. Assuming you can get in range and with the right AOA, they should actually work pretty well. Of course, at that point, you're basically the equivalent of fighting with bayonets.

You gotta think of the paradigm too. We're still thinking in terms of a huge WWIII showdown with a nuclear power. Your squadron goes up against a squadron of nuclear-armed strategic bombers heading towards the eastern seaboard. You use up most of your missiles engaging the escort squadron and now you're down to a couple left, it's enough to disable several of the bombers but there's still a couple left and you're running out of time. If you have a gun, that's something. Otherwise, you're gonna have to ram them.

There's zero real-world data (that I know of) but my guess is that modern guns are probably more effective in dogfights than they were back in Vietnam.

a6047d  No.609201


I think it's just a random fantasy plane with the same name.

But the "stealthy" design is even goofier if it's really meant to be flying at Mach 4.

54874c  No.609206


This. Unlike three decades agot the main weapon of modern fighters is AMRAAM-class missiles, not small short-range IR missiles, and medium range missiles are easier to take evasive action, need more confidence to fire in BVR and are much less effective in the most part of the real (aka human eye) visual range and almost completely useless in close quarter combat of under 2km.

If the fight devolves into a dogfight, which is more likely than most people think, then the 2 short range heat-seekers you sticked on the plane's wingtips/secondary internal bays solely because you could not fit an AMRAAM on might not be enough to secure a kill and the guns puts a considerable extra pressure in defenders positioning, see:


"maneuvering tactics" are mostly gun threat kills, where the defender violently tries to shake a loaded gun of his ass resulting into bleeding all his kinetics (defensive maneuvers are notorious for this)

54874c  No.609210


>There's zero real-world data (that I know of) but my guess is that modern guns are probably more effective in dogfights than they were back in Vietnam.

Not really. That's only the case with Typhoon's Mauser, Rafale's GIAT and to a lesser extent F-35's GAU-22 which is a more sophisticated but scaled down and nerfed GAU-8 with quite a few shortcomings because all other platforms did not put any noticeable effort in developing the technology. For example the Vulcan has been a staple of US fighters since 'nam and in the case of the F-22, the most advanced air-superiority fighter in the world, not only it is still used but is also less reliable compared to its previous incarnations because its metallic parts were replaced with composites and redundant parts were wholly removed for weight reduction.

91dad9  No.609465


I'm actually having a hard time coming up with any details about targeting systems for fighter jet guns, but the other possibility is that they're just MK 1 eyeballing it and that seems really unlikely.

37a7e8  No.609480

File: a7cd25046ee9858⋯.png (526.08 KB, 730x512, 365:256, Pachinko combat delta.PNG)


The forward facing radar locks onto the target plane and displays a leading sight with the shells trajectory that's like a spaghetti and meatball you match with the target. I couldn't find a good IRL pic so I got one from my favorite Manchurian light novel that no one ever played.

91dad9  No.609511


I was able to locate some information about Lead Computing Optical Sight (LCOS) and Enhanced Envelope Gun Sight (EEGS)

It does seem like those would be more effective than the older gyro gunsights. Thanks for helping me answer my question, strelok.

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