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"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15

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e26c98 No.468

Assume that I am an atheist, or agnostic due to ignorance, I have never been exposed to Christianity and don't believe in God or Gods. I meet Christians and develop an interest in their religion, and they direct me to the Bible.

How can I gain a Testimony of Jesus Christ? How can I read the Bible and believe it to be a text unlike any other, mystical in nature because the Creator of the Universe (or whomever) had a hand in its creation. Is it automatic, like you read it and you know? Must it be read a certain way? Must I meditate and get some kind of "answer" from the spirit realm?

How can the Bible make me believe in the God it testifies of? How did it make you believe?

8dd806 No.469

>>468

which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 1 Cor 2:13

I usually recommend the Gospel of John. Since it goes through Jesus's deity and covers some theological ground. Need ask them to pray for God to forgive them of their sins and for God to show himself.

> Is it automatic, like you read it and you know? Must it be read a certain way? Must I meditate and get some kind of "answer" from the spirit realm?

Well you can read the gospel and understand it but it's what you do. Unless God regenerates with grace it won't matter. However the reader actually meditates and understands it and responds to it through obedience and faith. That is salvation.

> How can the Bible make me believe in the God it testifies of? How did it make you believe?

When the Holy Spirit makes you realize this is God's revelation to the world over centuries.


18048c No.470

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>>469

>Gospel of John

As a noob like you, utterly ignorant of anything of Christianity, a core group of about five of us students plus four more off-n-on-ers spent every Friday lunchtime in discussion with two Christians who sloooooooooowly because we'd read ten words and then the questions would start took us through the Gospel of John.

It's the easiest, second-shortest gospel that teaches of Jesus' life and doings but tends to give more context to important events of Jesus and less of the teachings and parables

By the end of that year I did say slooooooowly I and two others were all-but a Christian

I'd love to say this could be done over the interwebz, but I don't know how well that would work because it revolved about conversation, discussion. That said, for the five of us, the key to that group's success was persistence – we kept coming come hell or high water. Frankly, you cannot half-arse trying to understand Chris… trying to do anything in life, frankly

The second thing that helped, obviously, was a respect for the two post-grad student Christians who were similarly dedicated to keeping going despite the incessant interruptions and constant streeeeaaaam of questions I'm not kidding, the book aint that long, but we only got to the actual crucifixion in about the last two weeks. We listened to them, never mocked them. Didn't mean we believed them, didn't mean we really appreciated the time they were spending, but we always made sure to understand their answers.

'''So, you really need to find a GOOD Christian group or individual prepared to lead you through the Gospel of John, and after John, if you're still interested, try Matthew or Luke for more of the parables and teachings.

You can always come here and ask us, but your answers won't come instantly'''

Following on from what anon >>469 said:

>How can I read the Bible and believe it to be a text unlike any other, mystical in nature because the Creator of the Universe (or whomever) had a hand in its creation. Is it automatic, like you read it and you know? Must it be read a certain way? Must I meditate and get some kind of "answer" from the spirit realm?

It is, yes, a mystical book in the sense that the Spirit of God guided its authoring, but it's still just a plain book meant to be read and understood in plain language. There is no gnostic or hidden meaning sense in the Bible. It was designed, if you'll pardon the word, to be read by theologians AND simple goat-herders.

For a non-believer to read, it would help, yes, I think it is fair to say, if you were to pray "If you're really out there, God, I'm listening" each time you read. I don't insist, but I think it would be helpful because it will maintain that sense of openness in your mind. In reality, no one can say "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit of God informing them, and in the same way, few can truly understand without someone else explaining certain aspects, or highlighting certain key points. That said, many a man has become a believer purely because they picked the book up and started reading. Why is a mystery of God. Others, like me, have taken a lot of work.

It will help to think about what you're reading, to mull it over, to let it sit in your mind and try and figure out what it means. Why did Jesus say that? What's that passage mean? What does he mean when he says that word? Why does he answer in that way to this person? Meditating in the lotus position saying "om" repeatedly is not a requirement, however. ;^)

Yes, there is historical context, which is a problem, because it means some things meant something different back then to what they mean today, which is why we have several different versions of the Bible – KJV, NIV, ESV, etc – each of which take a different approach to translation and context. Personally, I will strongly recommend the NIV because of its plain English but its keeping straight along the line.


18048c No.472

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>>468

>How can the Bible make me believe in the God it testifies of? How did it make you believe?

The Bible can't make you believe anything inb4, but it will present truths about Jesus Christ clearly. Remember, the key thing from which absolutely everything about Christian belief follows is just simple-lil-ole-this:

Jesus Christ was crucified, died, and God raised Him from the dead

Once you believe that statement, the entire world changes. For once you believe someone was raised from the dead, you're in miracles territory, especially knowing he was buried for two nights. And the thing that is going to immediately pop into your head when you consider that idea is the billion-and-one explanations for why that could be a natural event, why it didn't have to be as Christians say, didn't have to be a miracle to be so, etc…

Did you hear it in your head? Did you hear that cacophony of objections and "serious doubts" to this idea in red? Take note of that. In fact, take careful note of every time it happens, when the bile of incredulity rises in your gut. No other statement illicits more visceral a reaction than this one. Just as someone shouting "Jesus is Lord" in a public context illicits more phlegm of deep annoyance than pretty much anything anyone can shout. When you've read a bit, and understand a lot more about Jesus, ask yourself why this is.

For my group and I, it wasn't just about going through the Gospel of John, for we were scientists and were a lot more skeptical than these Christians (also scientists) were used to. We wanted the evidence. So, we probably spent three months moving at one-word-a-week digesting not the Gospel of John so much as the historical evidence for the gospel's veracity. We needed to understand whether or not this was all a nice story conjured up by religious zealots, or an actual historical account. And, these Christians went through the historicity of the Gospel with us, until we were prepared to let that question rest as answered – it was a historical actuality, so now what does it say.

To be fair, this was back in days before the interwebz and we had to rely on these paper things called "books" to be informed. Now the interwebz has no shortage of "Is the Bible reliable?" webpages and sites. Most of them, to be fair, rubbish, but still… http://www.rzim.eu/why-trust-the-bible for example


e26c98 No.473

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>>472

>Jesus Christ was crucified, died, and God raised Him from the dead

I think this statement, and more specifically the paragraph following it, encompass my experience pretty well. Its not so much that I "refuse" to believe it, rather I don't see any reason to. Its an extraordinary claim upon which all else depends, if you don't accept this as a fact (not some metaphor or a symbol or anything like that) then you cannot be a Christian. And I can't accept it, or I don't really know how to.

I've studied the Bible before, and I liked your link. I basically have the same issue as before, that just because a lot of the stuff, mundane geographical stuff is accurate, it doesn't engender credibility in the extraordinary, supernatural claims. How does this change for someone? What is it about this book that makes some people get to the point of Jesus' resurrection and not immediately turn away and say "OK, this obviously didn't happen" like I've done so many times?

Also, I have a hard time reconciling the New Testament with the Old Testament. Not in the classic "why is God so mean" complaint. I do think that, in the Christian framework, since God is the only source of (true) morality, whatever God dictates is good, and I can accept that. I just can't get past how mundane and human everything about the OT is. Its tribal and bronze age superstition retconned and interpreted by whoever is in charge, for whatever purpose benefits them. The polytheism being swept under the rug, the Book of Deuteronomy's story about being conveniently found during King Josiah's reign (the scripture being timely as it legitimized his political reforms), the lack of meaningful evidence for David's Kingdom (the Golden Age of Israel), the animal sacrifices (I've a hard time buying the Christian interpretation of this practice), etc.

TL;DR I'd like to try and be a Christian but Marcion and Richard Dawkins won't let me.


8dd806 No.474

>>473

Dawkins is just a wordsmith who speaks about Christianity in a dismissive tone because frankly he hates God (Romans 1) and it pays the bills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-eAg7Z6m1Q

> And I can't accept it, or I don't really know how to.

Quite simple. God's is righteous and just. He will punish the sinner but if you have faith you will be sparred punishment because faith is the means God uses to select his elect from among the lost.

So if you don't believe you spend eternity in Hell undergoing punishment for your sins. Also people somehow assume that once you are in Hell you stop sinning. That is very wrong. Hell will be full of reprobates.

The other is heaven where you spend eternity glorifying God. Which will be a surreal experience unlike any other.

> What is it about this book that makes some people get to the point of Jesus' resurrection and not immediately turn away and say "OK, this obviously didn't happen" like I've done so many times?

The Bible as I am sure you know is a collection of books. Well the OT tells us about the history of humanity, the covenants and the nature of God, also the history of Israel. It covers the prophecies God makes and the profound mercy of God who would send a saviour to cover the sins of his people.

https://vimeo.com/111291659

> I just can't get past how mundane and human everything about the OT is. Its tribal and bronze age superstition retconned and interpreted by whoever is in charge, for whatever purpose benefits them.

Elaborate mate?

> The polytheism being swept under the rug, the Book of Deuteronomy's story about being conveniently found during King Josiah's reign (the scripture being timely as it legitimized his political reforms), the lack of meaningful evidence for David's Kingdom (the Golden Age of Israel), the animal sacrifices (I've a hard time buying the Christian interpretation of this practice), etc.

Again some more detail. But maybe I see your point. The point of animal sacrifices is again in those primitive times your cattle were your livelihood. If you gave up cattle you gave up a portion of your wealth. Since they could be sold, eaten, could reproduce more cattle, could give you milk/fur and so it was a sign of thanksgiving. But also showed that by surrendering your cattle to God you surrendered livelihood to Him and put your trust in Him.

Also another thing about Hitchens, Dawkins and these new Atheists is that many have said that even if God personally showed himself to them leaving them without a shadow of a doubt. They still wouldn't bow the knee. It's a matter of their fallen and corrupt wills.


8dd806 No.475

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>>472

>>470

I have been meaning to respond to this for a while. Sorry for not doing so earlier. Just as a side note I notice you are probably the only one here who uses the spoilers so it's kind of obvious when you post. I just want to say I appreciate your contribution to this board. I am quite content with this board being only 10 or so people. Rather than hundreds and then have to deal with troll threads and what not.

So quite happy nonetheless and just wanted to personally thank you.

To address your post. I agree very much so but I want to suggest to OP and to you that the evidential approach to Christianity has its flaws.

You have to understand that OP when you are a Christian the atheistic materialistic naturalistic (it's a tongue-twister : ) is no longer viable but is instead exposed as a faulty, worldly philosophy (Col. 2:8)

The matter is that no one is converted because of some archaeological evidence or whatever but because God regenerates them through His grace.

> Personally, I will strongly recommend the NIV because of its plain English but its keeping straight along the line.

I beg your pardon, /kjv/ a Reformed board. ESV or AV only. Jokes aside. Those two versions are preferable along with the NASB. The NIV is cool but pre-2011. The 2011 is a Judeo-Marxist attempt at subverting Christianity.

So you have to understand whatever is fact is so because Jesus Christ aka the Godman made it so.

I advise you look into Greg Bahnsen, Cornelius Van Til, John Frame and Scott Oliphint. All of whom are presuppositionalist.

The main idea behind presuppositionalism is:

1. Without God rational thought is impossible (or in others word 'objective logic/fact')

2. Rational thought exist

3. Therefore, God exist

And so as a Christian our views on epistemology (how we know, what we know) are revelational (God spoke to the prophets and inspired the apostles to write the scriptures) and we reject rationalism or empiricism.

https://defenseofaith.wordpress.com/about/

Some neat articles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY-EO9E0lh4

27 part series.

A shorter 45 minute audio recording by Dr. Scott Oliphint on PA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk1XYkNJl1I


0e0305 No.476

>>472

Excellent post.

Books will always be my preferred method of obtaining knowledge and the Bible is my go to.


0e0305 No.477

>>475

Every single argument against Christianity is self-defeating. Atheistic reasoning is often the weakest most senseless of them all though. Because of this, they've resorted to declaring themselves undeservedly as the more rational and Christians as the intellectually deficient. It's superficial and stupid.


81012f No.478

>>477

> Because of this, they've resorted to declaring themselves undeservedly as the more rational and Christians as the intellectually deficient. It's superficial and stupid.

Exactly. They have infiltrated academia and now have a de facto monopoly on reason. You aren't reasonable if you aren't an atheist or if you are Christian keep it to yourself or otherwise adhere to a liberal universalist/inclusivist denomination.

It's quite annoying knowing many great scientist are Christian but the masses are being deceived by the Zionist media will buy it.


4ba4da No.479

>>478

>It's quite annoying knowing many great scientist are Christian

Sir Isaac Newtos comes immediately to mind.


4ba4da No.481

>>468

What do you mean by Testimony of Jesus Christ? That may be something particular to whatever denomination of Christian you're interacting with, but I'm not familiar. Could you explain what that part means, Anon.?


4ba4da No.487

>>475

Trying for a plain version of scripture is not the right way.




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