/lang/ - Languages

The Veronese Riddle is either the most ancient example of Italian, or very late Vulgar Latin (8th century):

Se pareba boves, alba pratalia araba

et albo versorio teneba, et negro semen [hehehe] seminaba

(In front of him he led oxen, white fields he plowed

And a white plow he held, and black seed he sowed.)

>inb4 my Migliorini

It clearly shows some innovations (in proper Latin, but retaining the vulgar vocabulary, it would sound like "Sibi parebat boves, alba pratalia arabat, et album versorium tenebat, et nigrum semen seminabat"*), but probably the scribe didn't think (or realize) he was writing in Italian.

The first official use of Italian is in the Placiti Cassinesi (960), and while it was employed to allow people who didn't speak Latin to understand a deposition, it's not plebby at all. Still archaic though:

Sao ko kelle terre, per kelle fini que ki contene, trenta anni le possette parte Sancti Benedicti.

(I know those lands, whose borders are shown in the map, have been owned by St. Benedict's region for thirty years)

Comparison with modern Italian:

So che quelle terre per quei confini che qui sono contenuti le possedette per trent'anni anni la parte di San Benedetto.

and Latin:

Sapio quod illae terrae, in finibus qui hic continentur, triginta annos possedit pars Sancti Benedicti.*

"K" to express /k/ was common in early Italian, alongside alternative spellings like "ch", since the distinction between hard and soft 'c' didn't exist in written Latin.

The genitive "Sancti Benedicti" is noteworthy (and very un-Italian-like), but typical of chancellery slang.

Overall, much closer.

After this early stage, little changed in grammar, syntax and phonetics; spelling and vocabulary instead changed noticeably. Local dialects were (and are) very much different, but a literary, "illustrious" Italian began to arise in the Late Middle Ages, and in particular three authors (Petrarch, Boccaccio and with some reservations Dante), were held as models during the Renaissance.

Now the same verse of the Bible, translated in different centuries (John 3:16):

Malermi, 1471:

Tanto amo dio el mondo che egli dette el suo unigenito figliolo: accio che ogni homo che crede in lui non perisca ma habia uita eterna.

(In this period the trend was to imitate everything Latin as much as possible everywhere, hence "homo", "habia", where the 'h' is a mere Latinism)

Martini, 1771:

''Imperocché Dio ha talmente amato il mondo, che ha dato il Figliuolo suo unigenito, affinché chiunque in lui crede, non perisca; ma abbia la vita eterna'.'

CEI, 2008

Dio infatti ha tanto amato il mondo da dare il Figlio unigenito, perché chiunque crede in lui non vada perduto, ma abbia la vita eterna.

KJV:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

*Latinfriends correct me please

The oldest preserved text in Latin alphabet in any Slavic language are the Freising manuscripts; three manuscripts written a dialect of Common Slavic spoken in Alps or Pannonia, and therefore a close relative or a direct ancestor of modern Slovene, but were found in Freising in Bavaria. Most famous (in Slovenia) is the second of the three manuscripts, which is a preacher's call for the faithful to repent of their sins.

First sentence, transcribed directly:

>Eccę bi detd naſ neze

>greſil tevuekigemube

>ſiti ſtaroſti neprigem

>lióki nikoligeſe pet

>ſali neimugi niſlzna

>telezeimoki nuúvuę

>kigemubeſiti

Modern Slovene translation is roughly:

Če bi ded naš ne grešil, bi mu na veke bilo živeti, starosti ne prejeti, nikoli skrbi imeti, ne solznega telesa, temveč na veke bi mu bilo živeti.

It's hard to do direct comparison because of differences in orthography, but since the manuscripts are dated to some point at the end of 10th century, they're not expected to differ much from Common Slavic yet.

The Celovec/Rateče manuscript was written around 1380, when Slovene already started diverging into regional dialects; it is written in Upper Carniolan dialect with some elements of Carinthian (Rateče is right at the border between the two regions). It includes several prayers; I'll give Pater Noster, transcribed from the manuscript, and the modern Slovene.

>Otſcha naſs kyr ſy w nebeſſich

>poſſwetſchenu body twoye yme

>pridi bogaſtwu twoye

>body wola twoya

>kakor w nebeſſich yno na ſemly.

>Kruch naſs wſedanny day nam dannaſs

>yno odpuſti nam dalge naſſe

>kakor yno my odpuſſchamo naſſen dalnykom

>yno naſs ne wuppellay wedner o yſſkuſb

>le naſs reſſy ob od ſlega.

>Amen.

Oče naš, ki si v nebesih,

posvečeno bodi tvoje ime,

pridi k nam tvoje kraljestvo,

zgodi se tvoja volja

kakor v nebesih tako na zemlji.

Daj nam danes naš vsakdanji kruh

in odpusti nam naše dolge,

kakor tudi mi odpuščamo svojim dolžnikom,

in ne vpelji nas v skušnjavo,

temveč reši nas hudega.

Amen.

The text still differentiates between y, Slavic front yer, and i' It also still includes the vocative case (oča instead of otec'', though in modern Slovene, the old vocative became nominative in this and several other words). Otherwise, the text is already easily readable for Slovene speakers, unlike the Freising manuscript one.

The first translation of the Bible into Slovene was finished in 1578, published 1583, and it set the norm for Slovene until the 19th century. It was done by Jurij Dalmatin, a Lutheran preacher. The language he used was based on earlier work by Primož Trubar, another Lutheran preacher, who published his Catechismus and Abecedarium in 1550, and also translated the New Testament. Trubar and Dalmatin still maintained the difference between y and i in certain words, but it wasn't very consistent anymore, so Slovene apparently lost this distinction around that point. However, they were both from Lower Carniola, so there are also geographic differences between the two examples.

Matthew 15:33

>Natu nega Iogri knemu prauio, Kei mi hozhmo tukai vti puſtzhaui tulikan kruha vſeti, de mi tako mnoshizo ludi naſitimo?

(Trubar, 1555-1577)

>Natu ſo k'njemu djali njegovi Iogri: Kej moremo v'puſzhavi tulikajn kruha vseti, de bi tulikajn folka naſsitili?

(Dalmatin, 1578)

>Inu njegóvi Jógri rekó k' njemu: Od kod tèdaj bómo vsęli v' puſhavi tóliku kruha, de ſe ena takú velika mnóshiza naſiti?

(Japelj, 1784-1802)

>Učenci so mu dejali: »Od kod naj v puščavi vzamemo toliko kruha, da nasitimo táko množico?«

(SSP, 1996)

>And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?

KJV

(Japelj apparently attempted to use diacritical marks to differ between open and closed e, so closed e is written ę)

Vocative in Slovene was lost at some point at the end of 17th century, causing several names to split; so now we have pairs of names where one is derived from nominative and the other from vocative; examples being Jurij and its vocative Jure (George), Mark and its vocative Marko.

>>1125

What's missing is the period from 1350-1650 which is now classified as Early New High

German:

ENHG(Luther Bible in 1545, the opening verses of John's Gospel):

Im anfang war das Wort, vnd das wort war bey Gott, vnd Gott war das Wort,

das selbige war im anfang bey Gott.

Alle ding sind durch dasselbige gemacht, vnd on dasselbige ist nichts gemacht, was gemacht ist.

Jn jm war das Leben, vnd das Leben war das Liecht der Menschen,

vnd das liecht scheinet in der Finsternis, vnd die Finsternis habens nicht begriffen.

NHG(Luther Bible in 1984):

Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort.

Dasselbe war im Anfang bei Gott.

Alle Dinge sind durch dasselbe gemacht, und ohne dasselbe ist nichts gemacht, was gemacht ist.

In ihm war das Leben, und das Leben war das Licht der Menschen.

Und das Licht scheint in der Finsternis, und die Finsternis hat's nicht ergriffen.

English translation:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

>>1125

>Readings and text of various stages of German by Alexander Arguelles:

Why does he keep pronouncing <ei> as /aɪ/ like in Modern German? Also, in Middle High German he mentions that only circumflexed vowels and diphthongs are long, yet he keeps pronouncing other vowels as long too.

>>1127

Modern German is the language he knows, so it colors his pronunciation. He obviously does some mistakes but I posted the videos because you can see the text and he adds explanations. Maybe you can post better videos if you feel like it.

You should read the comments below his Icelandic video, oh boy.